Eradicating Racism with Kindness with Dax-Devlon Ross

angela_r_howard (00:02.42)

Dax, welcome to Humanly Possible. I am so excited for this conversation. We met through a mutual friend, acquaintance, and since we've been connected, I have just been so inspired by your work. We just talked a little while ago, and you kind of talked about...

storytelling, being at the center of your purpose. And so I'm gonna hand it off to you to provide an introduction because you can do that best. So tell us who you are, what you stand for, and what makes you human. So first of all, thank you, Angela, for having me on your shows. I watch your work, I watch your movement, and I get a chance to do some of these from time to time. And there are definitely sometimes people that I encounter.

dax_devlon_ros (00:28.439)

Mmm.

dax_devlon_ros (00:38.474)

So first of all, thank you, Angela, for having me on your show. I watch your work, I watch your movement, and I get a chance to do some of these from time to time. There are definitely sometimes people that I encounter that I am really, really eager to be in conversation with because I know I'm going to do some learning and that learning will be applicable to my work. So what is my work and who do I do in the world? I always lead with...

angela_r_howard (00:52.252)

that I am really, really eager to be in conversation with because I know I'm going to do some learning, and that learning will be applicable to my work. So what is my work and what do I do in the world? You know, I always lead with what my first love was and always will be is I'm a writer. I'm a writer who is, you know, odd.

dax_devlon_ros (01:03.198)

what my first love was and always will be is I'm a writer. I'm a writer who was, you know, as a young person did not see himself as that. It was only in college where I had a professor who pulled me aside and said that you have an ability to convey.

angela_r_howard (01:11.1)

As a young person did not see himself as that. It was only in college where I had a professor who pulled me aside and said that you have an ability to convey thoughts through words that maybe you want to explore more. And it was a shocking experience for me, because prior to that, I had never had a teacher really or an educator really identify me as having a specific skill that I should try to honor. So writing for me in my early 20s in particular

dax_devlon_ros (01:21.962)

to convey thoughts through words that maybe you want to explore more. And it was a shocking experience for me because prior to that, I'd never had a teacher really or an educator really identify me as having a specific skill that I should try to honor. So writing for me in my early 20s in particular became not just a passion, but it became a calling. And so I've written a few books. Most recently, I wrote a book that came out this past summer called Letters to My White Male Friends. And I'm also...

angela_r_howard (01:41.074)

passion became a calling and so I've written a few books most recently I wrote a book that came out this past summer called letters to my white male friends and also I work at the intersection of equity inclusion diversity and strategy you know I work with a variety of companies as a coach the consultant I do a lot of facilitations facilitation is like a core component of how I how I believe I am called to show up in the world I never want to leave that or lose

dax_devlon_ros (01:51.566)

I work at the intersection of equity, inclusion, diversity, and strategy. I work with a variety of companies as a coach, as a consultant. I do a lot of facilitations. Facilitation is like a core component of how I believe I am called to show up in the world and I never want to leave that or lose that even as I do strategy work, even as I do a variety of other things that allow me to kind of sit in other spaces. I'm always called back to what it means to be in a space with people who are expressing something that is deep and personal.

angela_r_howard (02:11.274)

a variety of other things that allow me to kind of sit in other spaces. I'm always called back to what it means to be in a space with people who are expressing something that is deep and personal and vulnerable and being able to be a witness to them. So what makes me human to your question is, as I would say, is that it's to be a witness, you know, it's to be a witness to whatever people are experiencing and recognize that is the truth of their experience at that moment in time, to not turn away from it, to not try to, you know, to minimize.

dax_devlon_ros (02:20.74)

vulnerable and being able to be a witness to them. So what makes me human to your question is, as I would say, is that it's to be a witness, you know, to be a witness to whatever people are experiencing and recognize that is the truth of their experience at that moment in time, to not turn away from it, to not try to, you know, to minimize it, to uplift it, to name it, to center it. And it's to...

angela_r_howard (02:41.094)

it to uplift it to name it to center it and it's to be to be incredibly present with people is a human component human part of something for me to be human because as we all know it is very difficult to do that now increasingly difficult to be present for people because

dax_devlon_ros (02:48.718)

To be incredibly present with people is a human component, human part of, it's something for me to be human, because as we all know, it is very difficult to do that now, increasingly difficult to be present for people, because we just have so much stuff that we got calling our attention in all these different ways. I genuinely, even before this interaction today, before this podcast, I have a mantra that I say to myself, it's, you know, be where you are.

angela_r_howard (03:03.004)

We just have so much stuff that we got calling our attention in all these different ways. I genuinely, even before this interaction today, before this podcast, I have a mantra that I say to myself. It's, you know, be where you are, be who you're with, be doing what you're doing. That's my mantra, where you are, who you're with, doing what you're doing. That allows me to move from I'm gonna be in maybe this call, this hour, the next hour, but if I'm always saying that, center yourself.

dax_devlon_ros (03:17.142)

Be who you're with, be doing what you're doing. That's my mantra, where you are, who you're with, doing what you're doing. That allows me to move from I'm gonna be in maybe this call, this hour, the next hour, but if I'm always saying that, center yourself, be present with who you are with, be doing what you're doing, you know?

angela_r_howard (03:31.748)

be present with who you are with, be doing what you're doing, you know, and really those elements that allows me to kind of be in the world that we all have to be in right now which calls us to be in every at every hour every half hour whatever

dax_devlon_ros (03:36.302)

and really those elements that allows me to kind of be in the world that we all have to be in right now, which calls us to be in every hour, every half hour, whatever, in a different space, different group, whether it's family, friends, work, whatever else have you, and to not feel like there's a lag there or some part of me missing. I'll pause there because you asked a very simple question and I gave you a long-winded answer, but thank you so much for having me.

angela_r_howard (03:46.668)

different space, different group, whether it's family, friends, work, whatever else have you, and to not feel like there's a lag there or some part of me missing. I'll pause there because you asked a very simple question and I gave you a long one. No, that was, well, that's, we're so grateful to have you. I feel like I'm with a celebrity because I've got, I've got, I'm for the listeners here, I'm putting up your book Letters to My White Male Friends and

dax_devlon_ros (04:07.682)

Hahaha, you're funny.

angela_r_howard (04:16.538)

And I think part of humanity, and it just gets to, I think, this book in particular, is empathy. And I think a lot of your book, and I've started your book, is around.

dax_devlon_ros (04:16.6)

Mm-hmm.

angela_r_howard (04:31.764)

creating stories to create empathy for other people about experiences and getting yourself outside of yourself to understand what an experience is like. And in particular, your book is really centered around the black experience at work, much more complex than that. But if I could summarize it and inserting identity into the conversation around the workplace is such a...

dax_devlon_ros (04:47.938)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's fair.

angela_r_howard (05:00.292)

Hot topic, as you know. I mean, it's not a hot topic for us, because we've been working on culture and DE&I for a long time. But in society right now, it's a hot topic. So tell us a little bit about the book. It's kind of a half memoir, half, I would say, storytelling and creating awareness. But tell us a little bit more about the book. Yeah. So it is a book that is partly memoir. And it is partly.

dax_devlon_ros (05:07.434)

Yeah. Right.

dax_devlon_ros (05:14.552)

Yeah.

Yeah.

dax_devlon_ros (05:21.802)

Yeah. So it is it is a book that is partly memoir, and it is a partly call to action. So it's in many ways it uses I try to use some of my formative experiences and particularly formative experiences and within white predominantly white spaces, education spaces, workspaces as a way to reflect on my journey, specifically for the purposes of

angela_r_howard (05:30.056)

to action, so it's in many ways it uses, I try to use some of my formative experiences, particularly formative experiences within predominantly white spaces, education spaces, work spaces, as a way to reflect on my journey specifically for the purposes of allowing my reader to do their own reflective work.

dax_devlon_ros (05:51.474)

allowing my reader to do their own reflective work. You know, one of the things that you talk about the word empathy is that I think what I try to drive home is that our worldviews are in many ways, perhaps even exclusively a reflection of both what we've been through and how we've thought about those experiences that we've had. And the extent to which we're able to be reflective on the things that we've gone through.

angela_r_howard (05:55.112)

you know, one of the things that you talk about the word empathy is that I think What I try to drive home is that our worldviews are in many ways perhaps even exclusively a reflection of both what we've been through and how we've thought about those experiences that we've had and The extent to which we're able to be reflective on the things that we've gone through would allow

dax_devlon_ros (06:19.51)

would allow, allows us to both sort of recognize our own gaps and then also recognize and honor other people's narratives and experiences. So for specifically why I wrote a book that was centering, you know, white men at a time when many people are decentering white men, was because I think it's important for us to kind of go where we're called and where we can be useful, right? So for me as a black man who's had,

angela_r_howard (06:20.88)

us to both sort of recognize our own gaps and then also recognize and honor other people's narratives and experiences. So for specifically why I wrote a book that was centering you know white men at a time when many people are decentering white men was because I think it's important for us to kind of go where we're called and what we could be useful right. So for me as a black man who's had

dax_devlon_ros (06:48.23)

experiences that have allowed for him to

angela_r_howard (06:48.536)

experiences that have allowed for him to, you know, I've been...

dax_devlon_ros (06:52.446)

You know, I've been afforded opportunities, you know, for better and for worse, to be quite honest, to be in a lot of spaces and privileged spaces, you know, a lot of privileged rooms. You know, I was just remarking to my wife yesterday, I'm working in the podcast world now a bit and I'm part of a fledgling podcast company that's, and we're doing a lot of calls with large companies, large entities around projects. And I am always the only Black person on these calls. And I'm like, so this is yet another world that I'm sort of.

angela_r_howard (06:54.964)

afforded opportunities, you know, for better and for worse, to be quite honest, to be in a lot of spaces and privileged spaces, you know, a lot of privileged rooms. You know, I was just remarking to my wife yesterday, I'm working in the podcast world now, but I'm a part of this, a fledgling podcast company that's, and we're doing a lot of calls with large companies, large entities around projects. And I am always the only black person on these calls. And I'm like, so this is yet another world that I'm sort of navigating,

dax_devlon_ros (07:22.4)

navigating, and at least at the level of like, the sort of the companies that are defining and sort of pushing the largest sort of, you know, the sort of the our attention and they are predominantly white spaces right now. And what I find is that I've, through my experience, been able to develop both genuine and genuine rapport and relationship with a lot of white men.

angela_r_howard (07:26.698)

the companies that are defining and pushing the largest, the art tension, they are predominantly white spaces right now and what I find is that I have, through my experience, been able to develop both genuine rapport and relationship with a lot of white men because I am a man, I am a heterosexual man, I am a man who,

dax_devlon_ros (07:48.658)

because I am a man, I am a heterosexual man, I am a man who, you know, who grew up playing sports. I'm a man, so a lot of the things that allow me to be, to sort of have had bridging experiences, I felt called to use those in a way, sort of layered on with my experience in the DEI space, DEI, B space, Jedi space, to sort of help.

angela_r_howard (07:54.568)

playing sports, I'm a man. So a lot of the things that allow me to be, to sort of have had bridging experiences, I felt called to use those in a way, sort of layered on with my experience in the DEI space, DEI B space, Jedi space, to sort of help some folks who were hungry for a deeper understanding of what's going on and how they could both be, either be allies or just not get in the way. You know? So...

dax_devlon_ros (08:11.762)

some folks who were hungry for a deeper understanding of what's going on and how they could both be either be allies or just not get in the way, you know? So that was my offering. You know, everybody, I think people have a different inner there. Some folks are

angela_r_howard (08:22.46)

That was my offering. I think people have a different inner. Some folks are.

dax_devlon_ros (08:29.174)

their work is in other places right now. Right now I feel like some of my important work is in the space of if it is the case that we're trying to build a new future and if it is the case that we want to build a future that includes everybody and we want to also and that means even white men, right? Like it's not like we just want to like, alright, we're done with y'all, we out. That's not what I'm, that's not my project, right? I respect if somebody else has a project that is about something else, but my project is I don't ever want to be excluded and therefore I'm not gonna do that to somebody else, but I

angela_r_howard (08:29.412)

their work is in other places right now. Right now I feel like some of my important work is in the space of, if it is the case that we're trying to build a new future, and if it is the case that we wanna build a future that includes everybody, and we wanna also, and that means even white men, right? Like it's not like we just wanna like, all right, we're done with y'all, we're out. That's not what I'm, that's not my project, right? I respect if somebody else has a project that is about something else, but my project is, I don't ever wanna be excluded, and therefore I'm not gonna do that to somebody else,

dax_devlon_ros (08:58.788)

I am going to hold you accountable and I'm going to tell you some hard truths and I'm going to ask you to really do some work with me. So my book, I always say to people, it is not designed to be a passive experience. If you are just turning the pages and feeling bad for me, then you have missed the point.

angela_r_howard (08:59.126)

I'm gonna hold you accountable and I'm gonna tell you some hard truths and I'm gonna ask you to really do some work with me. So my book, I always say to people, it is not designed to be a passive experience. If you are just turning the pages and feeling bad for me, then you have missed the point.

dax_devlon_ros (09:16.53)

I did not write this book for you to feel bad for Dax. Dax is doing fine. I wrote this book because I've arrived at some conclusions about my life that I think would allow you to do some of your own work, to arrive at your own conclusions. Because if it is the case that you're looking around the world and you don't understand what's going on, that probably means you've missed some things, right? Or you've not really taken them in or you've not really sat deep with them. So I want you to recognize that is a harm, right?

angela_r_howard (09:16.8)

I did not write this book for you to feel bad for Dax. Dax is doing fine. I wrote this book because I arrived at some conclusions about my life that I think would allow you to do some of your own work, to arrive at your own conclusions. Because if it is the case that you're looking around the world and you don't understand what's going on, that probably means you've missed some things. Right. Are you not really taking them in or you've not really sat deep with them? So I want you to recognize that is a harm. Right. To have missed those things or to not be able to be in touch with those things.

dax_devlon_ros (09:42.922)

to have missed those things or to not be able to be in touch with those things, to feel alienated from or distant from that is a harm because you are, you are not able to really deeply connect with parts of your own human self. Right. And that leads to judgment. That leads to want to desire to, to shut down conversation or to shut down people. But the opening, to sort of, but to challenge people to be open is to, is to push them to do some of their own reflective work. And that's what my book is ultimately aimed at doing in many ways.

angela_r_howard (09:46.674)

to feel alienated from or distant from, that is a harm because you are not able to really deeply connect with parts of your own human self, right? And that leads to judgment, that leads to one, to desire, to shut down conversation or to shut down people. But the challenge with to be open is to push them to do some of their own reflective work. And that's what my book is ultimately aimed at doing in many ways.

It's such powerful, powerful work and so needed. And it's not easy, I can assume, because I work in a similar space where you're trying to fill the gaps of experience. And so what has, I'm just curious, what has been the response? Because you mentioned earlier that, you know, you've been in these privileged spaces and it sounds like you've been able to approach this matter and this topic in a way

dax_devlon_ros (10:24.28)

Yeah, you know, you know, you know. Yeah.

dax_devlon_ros (10:36.93)

Yeah.

angela_r_howard (10:42.922)

is hitting and impacting. So what has the response been and how have you worked on working on the work? Yeah. I mean, I think it's, you know, what's been, as a writer, you're always grateful to see your book in the world.

dax_devlon_ros (10:51.902)

Yeah, I mean, I think it's, you know, what's been, as a writer, you're always grateful to see your book in the world. You know, I go into bookstores and I see it, you know.

angela_r_howard (11:02.108)

you know i go to bookstores and i see it you know i can people send me pictures all over the country in canada all around people send me pictures they write to me like people i get emails from folks who've read it and encountered it it's not just white men i get letters and emails from all sorts of folks who will say listen i didn't know this book was for me but i read it i found something in it that was really valuable and thanking me for doing that um so there's just a lot of home there's a lot of um humility

dax_devlon_ros (11:04.37)

I can, people send me pictures all over the country, in Canada, all around people send me pictures, yo. They write to me, like people, I get emails from folks who've read it and encountered it. And it's not just white men. I get letters and emails from all sorts of folks who will say, listen, I didn't know this book was for me, but I read it and I found something in it that was really valuable and thanking me for doing that.

So there's just a lot of humility. I mean, I think every writer wants to make their book, see their book hit the bestseller list right away. Like that's the holy grail at least is mass culture.

angela_r_howard (11:26.804)

I mean, I think every writer wants to make their book, see their book hit the bestseller list right away. Like that's the holy grail, at least as mass culture, as popular culture defines it for us. But I think we need to define our own goals when we produce something for the world. And for me, it is A, a goal to have put it out there, to complete it, to put it out there, to be able to talk about it, to be in a space, to have folks who have it in their hands is a real whole, a real thing. But generally, I think that, you know, I am surprised

dax_devlon_ros (11:36.314)

as popular culture defines it for us, but I think we need to define our own goals when we produce something for the world. And for me, it is A, a goal to have put it out there, to complete it, to put it out there, to be able to talk about it, to be in a space, to have folks who have it in their hands is a real whole, real thing. But generally, I think that, you know, I am surprised by the number of folks who have...

angela_r_howard (11:56.838)

by the number of folks who have been willing to receive the messages and receive hard messages and receive hard truths with openness. It's been encouraging. And I know that there are a lot of folks who just don't want it, who have no interest and don't want to pick it up and don't want to reflect on it and are probably pissed off that I even have the notion, have the temerity to put something like this out in the world, meaning like, I think, and that some of that is connected to

dax_devlon_ros (12:00.458)

been willing to receive the messages and receive hard messages and receive hard truths with openness. It's both it's been encouraging. And I know that there are a lot of folks who just don't want to who have no interest and don't want to pick it up and don't want to reflect on it and are probably pissed off that I even have the notion have the temerity to put something like this out in the world meaning like I think and that some of that is connected to.

Some people's beliefs that racism isn't a real thing. Some people's beliefs that any attempt to...

angela_r_howard (12:24.332)

some people's beliefs that racism isn't a real thing. Some people's beliefs that any attempt to organize a book around an identity such as white men is a fool's errand because there is no shared identity that white men have in America.

dax_devlon_ros (12:32.858)

organize a book around an identity such as white men is a fool's errand because there is no shared identity that white men have in America. And I challenge that, you know, I challenge that even across economic spectrums. I think that there's shared features that, you know, I think it's hard for all of us to recognize that there are shared elements that we hold because we have certain identities. Like, I, there's a reason why, and I write about this, there's a reason why if I go down south and I walk through a neighborhood in the south, in the deep south, black men still

angela_r_howard (12:42.452)

I challenge that, you know, I challenge that even across economic spectrums. I think there's shared features that, you know, I think it's hard for all of us to recognize that there are shared elements that we hold because we have certain identities. Like I, there's a reason why, and I read about this, there's a reason why if I go down south and I walk through a neighborhood in the south, in the deep south, black men still give me a nod, right? Right? There's a reason why, right? Because there's something shared and they know it and we see it. And I think that white folks are more reluctant to acknowledge

dax_devlon_ros (13:02.712)

me a nod, right? Right? There's a reason why, right? Because there's something shared and they know it and we see it. And I think that white folks are more are more reluctant to acknowledge that there are some shared features of the identity of whiteness in America that and people who have experienced oppression and repression, partly because for us it's about survival. It's about like, I need to know that you know, right? The nod is about we hear, right? That's what the nod is.

angela_r_howard (13:12.406)

there's some shared features of the identity of whiteness in America that people and people who've experienced oppression and repression, probably because for us it's about survival. It's about like, I need to know that you know, right? The nod is about, we here, right? That's what the nod is. And if something goes down, we got each other, right? That's what the nod is, right? And so just for folks who, for whom they've never had to have that.

dax_devlon_ros (13:28.786)

And if something goes down, we got each other, right? That's what the nod is, right? And so just for folks who, for whom they've never had to have that or to identify themselves or think of themselves in that way, I think that's harder. And so there is resistance sometimes to books like a book like this. And I knew that going out, I knew that there would be a lot of folks who would just not wanna talk about it. I knew that a lot of mainstream publications would be like, nah, I don't wanna touch it because it's just a topic that is too uncomfortable.

angela_r_howard (13:38.928)

or to identify themselves or think of themselves in that way, I think that's harder. And so there is resistance sometimes to books like this. And I knew that going out, I knew that there would be a lot of folks who would just not wanna talk about it. I knew that a lot of mainstream publications would be like, nah, I don't wanna touch it because it's just a topic that is too uncomfortable. It's too close to home. I do think it's too close to home for some people, but we need that in our conversations, right?

dax_devlon_ros (13:57.566)

It's too close to home. I do think it's too close to home for some people, but we need that in our conversations, right? I feel like we need that, you know?

angela_r_howard (14:05.764)

Yes, absolutely. And I think, you know, the sectors that we talk about, right? I mean, there is so many to touch on media workplace, education, health care. I mean, it spans society. And so I kind of want to dive into the workplace specifically because systemic racism is a term that a lot of people have heard of and probably don't even know what it means. You know, systemic versus system.

dax_devlon_ros (14:13.084)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

dax_devlon_ros (14:25.674)

Yeah.

angela_r_howard (14:36.078)

for example. So tell us a little bit about when you talk about systemic racism or the systemic elements of let's say you know white supremacy for example how that has impacted the workplace even today what are some main elements that are important to know?

dax_devlon_ros (14:54.962)

Yeah, I think that we start from a baseline that there's a default. There's a default that exists within all work in organizational culture that has been built.

angela_r_howard (15:04.78)

all work in organizational culture that has been built in many ways on a sort of, I call it a chassis. Like it's all, if you think if you're building the car, there's a chassis that exists. And that, and therefore that's the foundation upon which a number of things are built. And therefore that doesn't get questioned, doesn't get challenged. It's identified as the way things go and the way things should be done and the way things should look. And for those, for anyone who

dax_devlon_ros (15:07.55)

in many ways on a sort of I call it like a chassis. Like it's all if you think if you're building the car it's a chassis that exists. And that and therefore that's the foundation upon which a number of things are built and therefore that doesn't get questioned, doesn't get challenged. It's identified as the way things go and the way things should be done and the way things should look. And for those for anyone who has you know been able to in their own lives

angela_r_howard (15:31.992)

who has been able to in their own lives either become aware of that norm and become aware of that default and therefore adjust and comport themselves and therefore meet its expectations and standards then you can be good and you can navigate it

dax_devlon_ros (15:37.318)

either become aware of that norm and be aware of that default and therefore adjust and comport themselves and therefore meet its expectations and standards, then you can be good and you can navigate it. There will probably be, for those of us who identify as other in some way, perspective, in some way, shape or form, some glass ceilings that we're going to have to, that we're going to be, we'll be playing a game of Tetris in some ways, whatever, that's going to exist. But you at least have an awareness of that because you recognize that this system wasn't

angela_r_howard (15:48.712)

There will probably be, for those of us who identify as other in some way, shape, or form, some glass ceilings that we're gonna have to step, we'll be playing a game of Tetris in some ways, whatever, that's gonna exist, but you at least have an awareness of that because you recognize that this system wasn't necessarily built for me to be successful here, right? And...

dax_devlon_ros (16:08.312)

And, but for those who don't know, who maybe are less aware of those things, those can operate as invisible barriers. I think the ways to talk about the systemic features of racism and the ways in which they manifest in the workplace is it's most practically understood through sort of the elements of the work environment, right?

angela_r_howard (16:09.704)

for those who don't know, who maybe are less aware of those things, those can operate as invisible barriers. I think the ways to talk about the systemic features of racism and the ways in which they manifest in the workplaces, it's most practically understood through sort of the elements of the work environment, right? All the sort of processes that prevail in the work environment. We have processes around hiring, around recruitment, around hiring, around training and onboarding.

dax_devlon_ros (16:27.63)

or the sort of processes that prevail in the work environment. You have processes around hiring, around recruitment, around hiring, around training and onboarding, around promotions, around performance reviews, around a number of things. And if you're not, and that even sort of even lives within strategy. And it lives in like who gets to, how we define what strategy is, what ideas. So if you look at all, if you break apart an enterprise

angela_r_howard (16:41.356)

around performance reviews, around a number of things. And if you're not, and that even lives within strategy, and it lives in who gets to, how we define strategy, is what ideas. So if you look at all, if you break apart an enterprise, and break up the little pieces, you can ask the question around, what is the norm here? And then who does that norm serve? And who does it, perhaps even unintentionally, exclude?

dax_devlon_ros (16:57.424)

little pieces, you can ask the question around what is the norm here and then who does that norm serve and who does it perhaps even unintentionally exclude. And I think the ways in which many of us have become, at least in the last couple of years, those of you who have become a bit more attuned to the ways in which systemic racism can function and operate, we're now looking at systems for recruitment.

angela_r_howard (17:10.802)

And I think the ways in which many of us have become, at least in the last couple of years, those have become a bit more attuned to the ways in which systemic racism can function and operate. We started, we're now looking at systems for recruitment and hiring as very salient ways as sort of entry points. So it's everything from what, we've started to use more frequently, what is written into a job description to what kinds of questions get interviewed, or an interview to where you decide to place your...

dax_devlon_ros (17:23.358)

and hiring as very salient ways as sort of entry points, right? So it's everything from what, you know, we're starting to hear this more frequently, what is written into a job description to, you know, what kinds of questions get in, or in an interview to where you decide to place your, how do, where you decide to add, put place advertisements for jobs to what kinds of universities and colleges you find you would think are going to be the ones that are appropriate for this, for us here.

angela_r_howard (17:41.undefined)

decide to add put place advertisements for jobs to what kinds of universities and colleges you find you would think are going to be the ones that are appropriate for this for us here for our culture to fit into who we are and what we do and how we do things so they're so beginning to recognize that those can have features of they can be they can they can be participants

dax_devlon_ros (17:53.292)

for our culture to fit into who we are, to what we do and how we do things. So beginning to recognize that those can have.

features of, of they can be they can they can be participants within a systemically racist system because they end up reinforcing opportunities and advantages that were already big that began as early as someone's birth, right. So if I am born into a society and in a community, where in my opportunities from the very beginning are less or fewer than those of a counterpart of mine who lives in a different community already I'm operating from a narrow a narrowing field a narrowing that narrowing that

angela_r_howard (18:11.034)

reinforcing opportunities and advantages that were already, that began as early as someone's birth. Right? So if I'm born into a society and it's in a community where my opportunities from the very beginning are less or fewer than those of a counterpart of mine who lives in a different community already I'm operating from a narrow a narrowing field a narrowing that narrowing that winnowing

dax_devlon_ros (18:33.524)

can continue and continue to a point I'm excluded, I'm excluded. And that exclusion can happen in many different, many different places. I want to offer like one I think very, I think...

angela_r_howard (18:34.312)

and continue to a point I'm excluded. I'm excluded. And that exclusion can happen in many different places. I wanna offer like one, I think very, I think.

dax_devlon_ros (18:45.33)

very visceral a way in which systemic racism continues to be an operational feature. I've been working with in an intersection of sports right now. Some of I work with a sports team, an NFL football team as a matter of fact, is one of my clients. And it's been really interesting to learn because it's actually shifted a lot of my thinking. There's a lot of dynamics specific around gender, which you can imagine in a football organization that prevail. There's dynamics around race. As we saw a couple of days ago, if you follow football at all, the Oakland Raiders head

angela_r_howard (18:45.52)

very visceral a way in which systemic racism is a as it continues to be an operational feature I've been working with uh in an intersection of sports right now some of I work with a sports team and it's been really interesting um to learn because it's actually shifted a lot of my thinking there's a lot of dynamics specific around gender which you can imagine in a football organization that prevail there's dynamics around race as we saw a couple of days ago if you follow football at

dax_devlon_ros (19:15.184)

also his job because of the kinds of communications that he was sharing with people who he believed, I'm sure, were like-minded in another organization. And if you were to probably ask that same person, was he racist, he would deny it, deny it, deny it. But then you read what this man has written, it's like how, and you're a decision maker. This is highly problematic. Now the reason I bring up the NFL here is that what's been revealed in most recent, like the last couple of months, is that there was this huge lawsuit that is currently moving through the processes within NFL that's regarding sort of the

angela_r_howard (19:15.534)

his job because of the kinds of communications that he was sharing with people who he believed I'm sure were like-minded in another organization and if you were to probably ask that same person this was he racist he would deny it deny it deny it but then you read

this man is written is like how and you're a decision maker. This is highly problematic. The reason I bring up the NFL here is that what's been revealed in most recent, like the last couple of months is that there was this huge lawsuit that is currently moving through the processes within NFL. That's regarding sort of the benefits to be paid to former NFL players based around whatever like head injuries that they may have had as a result of playing. So there's baked into the sort of policy

dax_devlon_ros (19:45.124)

the benefits to be paid to former NFL players based around whatever head injuries that they may have had as a result of playing. So there's baked into the sort of policy and the process of deciding what kind of benefits would be paid to players was this thing called race norming.

angela_r_howard (19:58.73)

what kind of benefits would be paid to players was this thing called race norming. So race norming suggested this is a pseudo scientific theory that was baked into this policy and this is going to have real material consequences for people's lives that cognitively white players start at a different place than black players so therefore we can't we have to measure the we're gonna measure

dax_devlon_ros (20:04.83)

So race norming suggested, and this is a pseudoscientific theory that was baked into this policy, and this is gonna have real material consequences for people's lives, that cognitively, white players start at a different place than black players. So therefore, we have to measure, we're gonna measure the diminishment of their cognitive abilities from a different starting point. So right there, you see, they are saying that white players have a different,

angela_r_howard (20:28.07)

from a different starting point. So right there you see, they are saying that white players have a different IQ from the very beginning. Different cognitive starting point. Such that for them to show the kind of requisite diminishment was easier than it would be for a black player because you're presumably starting from a lower starting point, cognitively. So whatever diminishment in your capacities has been revealed or demonstrated would need to be even more...

dax_devlon_ros (20:34.806)

IQ from the very beginning, different cognitive starting point, such that for them to show the kind of requisite diminishment was easier than it would be for a black player because you're presumably starting from a lower starting point.

cognitively, so whatever diminishment in your capacities has been revealed or demonstrated would need to be demonstrably broader or more whatever the word might be in order for you to have a legitimate claim. So you can see that there's a baseline that's already baked in to the assumption of an actual policy in 2021 that starts from a place that white people and black people have a different IQ

angela_r_howard (21:00.475)

or more sort of whatever the word might be.

for you to have a legitimate claim. So you can see that there's a baseline that's already baked in to the assumption of an actual policy in 2021 that starts from a place that white people and black people have a different IQ. And therefore we're going to measure the benefits that you are going to be able to be able to access based on what that assumption is saying about your IQ. This is unfathomable. When I read this, I was like,

dax_devlon_ros (21:19.216)

Therefore, we're going to measure the benefits that you are going to be able to access based on what that assumption is saying about your IQ. This is unfathomable. When I read this, I was like, I can't. Now it's been challenged, it's been overturned, it's now being outrooted. But the mere fact, the mere fact that this could be with a straight face written into

angela_r_howard (21:33.854)

over turn is now being uprooted, but the mere fact, the mere fact that this could be with a straight face written into a policy that would have material impacts, and then people would question whether systemic racism is a real and manifesting thing in our society, I find to be really, really problematic. Like, who, what more evidence would you need?

dax_devlon_ros (21:42.955)

a policy that would have material impacts, and then people would question whether systemic racism is a real and manifesting thing in our society, I find to be really, really problematic. Like, who?

what more evidence would you need? So that's a very salient, present, and material example of the way it manifests, but there's a million different ways that we could talk about it. And there's ways in which gender discrimination operates, and there are ways in which ableism operates, and there are ways in which, you know, heteronormativity and the expectation, all those things are operationalized in often implicit ways in an organization. And it can feel like it's splitting hairs, but the accumulation of those things, it's the accumulation

angela_r_howard (21:57.744)

So that's a very salient, present, and material example of the way it manifests. But there's a million different ways that we can talk about it. And there's ways in which gender discrimination operates. And there are ways in which ableism operates. And there are ways in which heteronormativity and expectation. All those things are operationalized in often implicit ways in an organization. And it can feel like it's splitting hairs. But the accumulation of those things, it's the accumulation of these small micro.

dax_devlon_ros (22:24.536)

small micro sort of micro missed opportunities, micro-aggressive, whatever you call them, that over time accumulate to have a cumulative effect. And that's what we're trying to put attention to. It's not the egregious thing every time. It's the small thing. It's the small stuff.

angela_r_howard (22:26.884)

sort of micro missed opportunities, micro-aggress, whatever you call it, that over time accumulate to have a cumulative effect. And that's what we're trying to put attention to. It's not the egregious thing every time. It's the small thing. It's the small stuff. Yes, and those small things, like you said, compiling on top of each other that are covert and overt, I think is the key here, which is, going back to your original comment about

dax_devlon_ros (22:47.863)

Yeah.

angela_r_howard (22:58.438)

you know, that you don't know what you don't know. And someone like your white male friends acknowledging, you know what, I'm on this journey with you and I don't know what I don't know. I am, I want to learn and I want to unlearn. And I oftentimes,

dax_devlon_ros (23:01.486)

Right, right, right. It's hard.

angela_r_howard (23:16.42)

I have kind of a mini story about, you know, workplaces and how they weren't built for folks like us. You know, if you can almost imagine, you know, if a workplace was built for three foot tall people, right? And the entire time, you know, generations after generation, the workplaces, everything's three feet tall. And now you have folks who are 10 feet tall who are starting to enter the workplace, women, people of color.

dax_devlon_ros (23:30.43)

Yeah.

dax_devlon_ros (23:43.991)

Yeah.

angela_r_howard (23:46.334)

we have to fit into these three foot doors. We have to sit on the furniture that's half our size. And just, I mean, you can imagine like the physical distortion of trying to fit in to a place that was not built for you. The furniture wasn't built for you. The doors weren't built for you. The food wasn't built for you. The coffee cups are this small. And that's a really like wild interpretation of that. But...

dax_devlon_ros (23:53.838)

Yeah.

dax_devlon_ros (24:03.49)

Yeah.

dax_devlon_ros (24:07.863)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

angela_r_howard (24:16.304)

And that's a really salient example. Literally, that's not what's happening. But things are happening, like the definition of professionalism, or someone telling you that you can't get that leadership role because you don't have executive presence, whatever that means. It really comes back to how do we really dismantle the norms, the culture, and dismantle even the idea of culture fits.

dax_devlon_ros (24:19.024)

Yeah, yeah, that's real. Yeah.

dax_devlon_ros (24:27.627)

Yeah.

dax_devlon_ros (24:33.505)

Yeah.

dax_devlon_ros (24:45.389)

Yeah.

angela_r_howard (24:46.198)

culture amplifier, because if you're just going to perpetuate the same, you're going to get carbon copies. You're going to get the same. And I wanted to talk about this. This is really heavy on my mind, because I've started to read some research that's saying women and people of color in particular are

dax_devlon_ros (24:48.279)

Mmm.

dax_devlon_ros (24:51.84)

Mm-hmm.

angela_r_howard (25:07.036)

the majority of them are the ones who are saying, I don't wanna come back to the office. If you're looking at the populations, we're starting to survey like, okay, who wants to come back to the office? Who wants to get back to that office culture? You're seeing women and people of color saying, nah. This has been a moment where I feel like I've belonged the most. Office culture is built for white males and those are the ones who are wanting

dax_devlon_ros (25:12.116)

Mmm. Yeah.

dax_devlon_ros (25:27.992)

Yeah.

dax_devlon_ros (25:31.704)

Yeah.

dax_devlon_ros (25:36.22)

and

angela_r_howard (25:37.13)

to go back interestingly enough because it was built for them. It's not very interesting actually. I mean that's not actually interesting. And I think what's interesting is that we don't talk about it. You hear employers want people back. CEOs want people back. That's white men. And that has a lot to do with control. It has a lot to do with having eyes on the work, a lack of trust. And that's to me I think when you talk about the ways in which workplace

dax_devlon_ros (25:38.478)

I know. No, it's not very interesting. Actually, it's very obvious. I mean, that's not actually an interesting and I think what's interesting is that is that we don't talk about it. Like you hear employers want people back. The CEOs want people back. That's white men. That's white men. And that's and that has a lot to do with control has a lot to do with having eyes on the work, a lack of trust. And, and that's to me, I think when you talk about the ways in which workplace culture

is in many ways rooted in

angela_r_howard (26:08.371)

is in many ways rooted in a sort of distrust in which people are not believed in terms of both what their needs are, what their abilities are, what their intentions are, what their integrity is. There's an assumption that one needs to be watched, one needs to be assessed constantly, one needs to be monitored. Where does that all come from? You know, like, and I think so when I, when people are, when we have these conversations about like culture and what sort of white supremacy culture is, I try to go back to the, you know, the, the

dax_devlon_ros (26:11.486)

a sort of distrust in which people are not believed in terms of both what their needs are, what their abilities are, what their intentions are, what their integrity is. There's an assumption that one needs to be watched, one needs to be assessed constantly, one needs to be monitored. Where does that all come from? You know, like, and I think so when I, when people are, when we have these conversations about like culture and what sort of white supremacy culture is, I try to go back and think about, let's link it up to.

angela_r_howard (26:36.79)

go back and think about, let's link it up to the deeper history around sort of our religious traditions as well. Let's link it up to some of the prevailing sort of ideologies that have seeped into, that have come to us through our prevailing religious ideologies. And some of that gives us a sort of sense of the why we have organizational cultures that operate in the ways they operate. And sort of what I mean by that is there is this such thing as the sort of Protestant work ethic. You know, the Protestant work ethic has been,

dax_devlon_ros (26:39.838)

the deeper history around sort of our religious traditions as well. It's linked up to some of the prevailing sort of ideologies that have seeped into, that have seek, that have come to us through our prevailing religious ideologies. And some of the gives us a sort of sense of the why we have organizational cultures that operate in the ways they operate. And sort of what I mean by that is there is this such thing as the sort of Protestant work ethic, you know, the Protestant work ethic has been, it was a, you know, and this is something that is, you know, I'm not nearly the

angela_r_howard (27:06.75)

And this is something that is, you know, I'm not nearly the first person who's identified this as a feature that is sort of prevails inside of workplace culture. But that ethic is really it values a sort of presentation of work, of sort of fastidiousness. That is, that is, that is a signal that one is engaged, a signal that one is sort of the team and really about the thing. And so I present in other ways, or if my background and traditions call for different ways of being.

dax_devlon_ros (27:09.772)

first person who's identified this as a feature that is sort of prevails inside of workplace culture. But that ethic is really, it values a sort of presentation of work, a sort of fastidiousness that is a signal that one is engaged, a signal that one is sort of the team and really about the thing and da da. So if I present in other ways or if my background and traditions call for different ways of being, that can be perceived as I'm not part of the team.

angela_r_howard (27:36.89)

that can be perceived as I'm not part of the team. I'm not really giving my all. I'm not really bought in whatever else have you. But if it is the case that for me, work is actually a place that I go to do the work that I do and not a place that I go looking for friendship necessarily or going to look for culture necessarily or go to look for X, Y, and Z, it can be perceived that I'm not, that's not me. But if historically I have found that in other places and I have found that is, but you know, my,

dax_devlon_ros (27:39.812)

really giving my all. I'm not really bought in and whatever else have you. But if it is the case that for me work is actually a place that I go to do the work that I do and not a place that I go looking for friendship necessarily or going to look for culture necessarily or go to look for X, Y, and Z, it could be perceived that I'm not, that's not me. But if historically I have found that in other places and I have found that is, but you know my

you know, my way of being, my sort of cultural taste or whatever else have you, are not prevailing in this environment. I find it elsewhere. And so you're asking me to adjust to what is your way, but you are naming it as the way and you're naming it as a way that is linked to performance too and performance outcomes. And I think that's usually the way it gets rationalized, right? The rationalization for why we want people back to work is that we believe we're going to get better performance outcomes. But

angela_r_howard (28:05.364)

You know, my way of being, my sort of cultural taste or whatever else have you are not prevailing in this environment, I find it elsewhere. And so you're asking me to adjust to what is your way, but you are naming it as the way, and you're naming it as a way that is linked to performance, to performance outcomes. And I think that's usually the way it gets rationalized, right? The rationalization for why we want people back to work is that we believe we're gonna get better performance outcomes. But people are saying, actually, that's not necessarily true. If we look at what we're doing, we're producing it more than we've ever produced. We're doing,

dax_devlon_ros (28:29.258)

But people are saying, actually, that's not necessarily true. If we look at what we're doing, we're producing it more than we've ever produced. We're doing, so what are you really saying here? What you're really saying here is that you're missing something that you...

angela_r_howard (28:35.158)

So what are you really saying here? What you're really saying here is that you're missing something that you have valued incredibly and that has a lot to do with your positionality as the person in charge. That has a lot to do with being in an environment where a lot of the energy is focused on and directed towards you. And that not having that.

dax_devlon_ros (28:40.882)

have valued incredibly, and that has a lot to do with your positionality as the person in charge. That has a lot to do with being in an environment where a lot of the energy is focused on and directed towards you. And that not having that at your disposal, not having that tangibly and accessible in a way for... I worked in an organization, I remember years ago, I remember, and I remember a decade ago, I was working in an organization, I started pushing for

angela_r_howard (28:57.684)

at your disposal, not having that tangibly and accessible in a way. I worked in an organization, I remember years ago, and I remember a decade ago, I was working in an organization. I started pushing for our team to be able to work from home. Cause I was like, I come into an office and go sit into a corner, no one calls me. No one needs me for, why am I here? I don't understand it. I'm only doing work on a computer. No one asks me, my phone doesn't ring. You don't know, what do I need to be here?

dax_devlon_ros (29:10.358)

for our team to be able to work from home because I was like I Come into an office and go sit into a corner. No one calls me. No one needs me for why am I here? I don't understand it. I am only doing work on a computer. No one asked me my phone doesn't ring You don't know what do I need to be here and it came to realize That I had to walk by the CEO's office every time I came in and everybody did right and I realized oh this is about them

angela_r_howard (29:26.724)

and I came to realize that I had to walk by the CEO's office every time I came in and everybody did right and I realized oh this is about them this is about their feeling about the engine of the workplace and it's about their sense of and I get that because if you have a distrust if you don't believe that people are committed to the work and that they're going to put value and integrity in their work you know then you do

dax_devlon_ros (29:35.754)

This is about their feeling about the engine of the workplace. And it's about their sense of, and I get that because if you have a distrust, if you don't believe that people are committed to the work and that they're going to put value and integrity in their work, you know, then you do feel like they need to have some kind of system set up to observe, monitor and, and ensure that they are executing at a certain level. Now I do know that,

angela_r_howard (29:54.772)

have some kind of system set up to observe, monitor, and ensure that they are executing at a certain level. Now, I do know that, and I do want to name, I think there's a lot of value for people coming together. As a facilitator, I value being in space with people. What I advocate for is, and what I talk more about is, organizations moving towards what I call almost like a...

dax_devlon_ros (30:05.948)

I think there's a lot of value for people coming together as a facilitator I've I value being in space with people what I advocate for of is and what I talk more about is organizations moving to towards what I call almost like a Circuit training model or like a or like a I always call it the hit training model like a high intensity interval training model Right. It's the hip model you come together for sprints

angela_r_howard (30:20.232)

Circuit training model or like a or like a I call it the hit training model like a high intensity Yes

dax_devlon_ros (30:29.418)

And that sprint might be for four days, we're gonna come together, and we're gonna come together with clear agendas and clear objectives, and then we're gonna go away again. And I think that there's a, I would like to see an advocate for more organizations thinking about these sprints, because then you get people who are still able to do some of the community building, FaceTime interaction, but you cut away from what the people have been saying for years has been killing them, which is useless meetings.

angela_r_howard (30:39.836)

to see and advocate for more organizations thinking about these sprints. Because then you get people who are still able to do some of the community building, FaceTime interaction, but you cut away from what the people have been saying for years has been killing them, which is useless meetings. If you think about management culture in our society, management culture in our society forces people who want to be promoted and want to progress in their careers to push into management roles that often push them away from the work

dax_devlon_ros (30:56.21)

If you think about management culture in our society, management culture in our society forces people who want to be promoted and want to progress in their careers to push into management roles that often push them away from the work that they were really good at doing and pushes them further towards having to be in a role where they're monitoring people, that they're all, and that's their job. And therefore calling people to meetings, calling that, and that is, they start to detest that. And who wants to go back to that?

angela_r_howard (31:10.044)

them further towards having to be in a role where they're monitoring people that they're all and that's their job and therefore calling people to meetings calling and that is they start to detest that and who wants to go back to that right nobody wants to it's not like a thing people want to go back to doing it's not a great feeling you have about yourself but that's typically the way in which we rise you may have to get up and go through well I love I love your

dax_devlon_ros (31:21.978)

Nobody wants to, it's not like a thing people want to go back to doing. It's not a great feeling you have about yourself, but that's typically the way in which we rise. We have to get up and go through. Anyway, that's this.

angela_r_howard (31:40.138)

that I think have originated somewhere. And it's kind of like, oh gosh, how do I describe it? It's, it's.

dax_devlon_ros (31:43.778)

Yeah.

angela_r_howard (31:51.096)

it's almost just not even based on logic anymore. It's just a perception that has built over time that just is, and back to your point earlier, I think that is just going back to bringing this full circle, that is what's wrong with society right now, is things have just been the way they've been, no one's questioned them, no one has questioned the exclusivity or the nature as to which it is excluding certain groups.

dax_devlon_ros (31:55.555)

Hmm.

dax_devlon_ros (32:21.346)

now.

angela_r_howard (32:21.91)

And I even think about neurodiversity and preferences when it comes to introverts versus extroverts, how they process information. The workplace was created for extroverts. I believe that 100%. And I would just, I'd be curious to know from your perspective.

dax_devlon_ros (32:29.183)

Mmm. Mmm-hmm.

Yeah.

dax_devlon_ros (32:38.302)

Absolutely. Yeah.

angela_r_howard (32:48.14)

What do you see as, so keeping that data that I just mentioned in mind about there's certain groups who are saying, you know what, I'm, I feel like I most belong working from home and having these more purposeful hit type of interactions that make sense, that add value to my work and to my purpose. What's your, like if you had one of those eight balls, what do they call it? Crystal balls in front of you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

dax_devlon_ros (32:51.949)

Yeah.

dax_devlon_ros (32:59.682)

Yeah.

dax_devlon_ros (33:03.474)

Yeah.

dax_devlon_ros (33:07.927)

Yeah.

dax_devlon_ros (33:13.618)

Yeah, yeah, uh-huh.

angela_r_howard (33:15.34)

How do you think this current state of, I'll call it an awakening, they call it the great resignation, the great awakening, there's a million different words for it right now, but what do you predict will happen? Not to put you on the spot, but. I know, right? Like, you know, let's just say upfront, provide this, make this caveat that I, you know, if you were to ask me two years ago, you know, what this would look like in the world, there's no way I would know.

dax_devlon_ros (33:23.135)

Yeah.

dax_devlon_ros (33:29.198)

I mean, I know, right? Like, you know, let's just stay up front and provide this, make this caveat that I, you know, that if you were to ask me two years ago, you know, what this would look like in the world, there's no way I would know, and there's no way any of us would know. So obviously, the game of, the efforts to predict anything are, they are a fool's errand. That said, I like the question, so I'm gonna try to answer it to some extent. I think that like,

angela_r_howard (33:40.884)

there's no way any of us would know. So obviously the efforts to predict anything are, they are a fool's errand. That said, I like the question, so I'm gonna try to answer it to somebody. I think that like,

dax_devlon_ros (33:56.394)

What I would like to see is that gets what gets layered into this conversation about the work from home. Conversation is climate. And, you know, folks don't remember, but earlier this summer, there was a climate report that was released.

angela_r_howard (33:57.384)

to see is that gets what gets layered into this conversation about the work from home conversation is climate.

And you know, folks don't remember, but earlier this summer, there was a climate report that was released to much alarm. Of course, it's since faded away as shortly before Hurricane Ida that basically said that we are on a path of no return, you know, unless we make some immediate changes to the way in which we are operating as a society. And of course, Americans and this society in particular is has a huge footprint when it comes to, you know, our environmental and climate impact.

dax_devlon_ros (34:12.086)

to much alarm, and of course has since faded away, is shortly before Hurricane Ida, that basically said that we are on a path of no return, unless we make some immediate changes to the way in which we are operating as a society. And of course, Americans and this society in particular has a huge footprint when it comes to our environmental and climate impact. When I see employers say that they wanna get people back to work, I wanna...

angela_r_howard (34:35.6)

When I see employers say that they want to get people back to work, I want people to complicate that thinking and recognize that means getting people into cars, making them drive, that means putting more,

dax_devlon_ros (34:41.226)

I want people to complicate that thinking and recognize that means getting people into cars, making them drive. That means putting more, more noxious fumes into the environment. That means more consumption of the various sort of these sort of these more consumption, more reckless consumption, more needless consumption, more people flying on planes. Like that is a zero sum game. Like we're not.

angela_r_howard (34:50.092)

fumes into the environment that means more consumption of the various sort of these sort of these more consumption more reckless consumption more needless consumption more people flying on planes and that is a zero-sum game like we're not that is got to be part of our conversation now like part of the work I really want to be doing moving forward as particularly as a father of young children

dax_devlon_ros (35:04.266)

That has got to be part of our conversation now, like part of the work I really want to even be doing moving forward, particularly as a father of young children.

is intersect more of my work in social justice with environmental and climate justice. I feel like unfortunately that work has been, that seemed almost off limits for me. It feels like that's work that's happening over there. And again, there are white people doing that work over in the climate justice space and that doesn't really intersect with the social justice space. They need to be in conversation together and I really wanna pull them together. So for me, what I am registering is a deep need for us to really think about this sort of new opportunity that has availed itself to us.

angela_r_howard (35:13.084)

is intersect more of my work in social justice with environmental and climate justice. I feel like unfortunately that work has been, that seemed almost off limits for me. It feels like that's work that's happening over there. And again, there are white people doing that work over in the climate justice space and it doesn't really intersect with the social justice space. They need to be in conversation together and I really wanna pull them together. So for me, what I am, what I am.

registering is a deep need for us to really think about this sort of new opportunity that has availed itself to us as an opportunity to also scale back our impact on the environment, to really think about sustainability and live more sustainably, to use our homes, to transform our homes into more sustainable environments, to sort of like recognize that what we have been doing.

dax_devlon_ros (35:42.632)

as an opportunity to also scale back.

our impact on the environment, to really think about sustainability and live more sustainability, to use our homes, to transform our homes into more sustainable environments, to sort of like recognize that what we had been doing, pushing all these folks into these sort of these vehicles to push to these offices and this rush hour, like it is not just that it is draining people's life, but it is also draining the life of our precious earth and our mother nature. So I feel like that's a compliment. That's one thing I would like to see as a copy.

angela_r_howard (36:01.192)

all these folks into these sort of these vehicles to push to these offices and this rush out. Like it is not just that it is draining people's life, but it is also draining the life of our precious earth and our mother nature. So I feel like that's a complex. That's one thing I would like to see as a copy. What I think is going to happen is the companies that persist and survive and that will become successful are going to be the ones that get that message. That's where the talent is going to go. And I think that is just what we need to be clear about. Like

dax_devlon_ros (36:16.208)

What I think is going to happen is the companies that persist and survive and that will become successful are going to be the ones that get that message. That's where the talent is going to go. And I think that is just what we need to be clear about. And I think that it's not just generally talent more broadly. I think especially if folks want to have BIPOC talent, that they need to be aware that folks like myself, like yourself, we know our value now.

angela_r_howard (36:30.8)

And I think that it's not just generally talent more broadly. I think especially if folks want to have bi-apocalyptic talent, that they need to be aware that folks like myself, you like yourself, all of us, we know our value now. You may not have known it a couple years ago, but we know our value now. You might have questioned it, but now we're very clear. And we're clear that we're needed, and we bring a lot to the table.

dax_devlon_ros (36:45.142)

We may not have known it a couple of years ago, but we know our value now. We might have questioned it, but now we're very clear. And we're clear that we're needed, and we bring a lot to the table. And so we're not gonna just take anything, and we're not gonna just jump because you're not gonna say how high because you said jump. That arrangement is not the arrangement anymore. That isn't to say that we don't wanna work in partnership with and collaborate with, but it just means the terms of the arrangement are different now.

angela_r_howard (36:55.108)

We're not going to just take anything. We're not going to just jump because you say not going to say how high because you said jump. That arrangement is not the arrangement anymore. That isn't to say that we don't want to work in partnership with and collaborate with, but it just means the terms of the arrangement are different now. And people have to know that as leaders, you don't just go in to close the door and make a decision that's going to have an impact on everybody. And I'm just going to say, cool, that doesn't work anymore.

dax_devlon_ros (37:13.258)

And people have to know that as leaders, you don't just to go in to close the door and make a decision that's gonna have an impact on everybody. And I'm just gonna say, cool, that doesn't work anymore. People will walk away. People will be up in arms. They will put you on blast on social media and they will be right to do so.

angela_r_howard (37:24.842)

away people will be up in arms it will put you on blasts on social media and they will be right to do so right because people should have a voice they should have a role in things and choices that are gonna have an impact on their lives there's nothing wrong with opening up the space for decisions to be open for others to participate in especially people who might have a better line of sight on the ripple effects of those decisions there is nothing wrong with being more transparent there's nothing wrong and as a matter of fact we see

dax_devlon_ros (37:29.95)

Right? Because people should have a voice. They should have a role in things and choices that are going to have an impact on their lives. There's nothing wrong with opening up the space for decisions to be opened for others to participate in, especially people who might have a better line of sight on the ripple effects of those decisions. There is nothing wrong with being more transparent. There's nothing wrong. And as a matter of fact, we see with even the way companies are going to be measured on the stock market as well. I think we're going to start to see more stakeholder.

angela_r_howard (37:55.422)

on the stock market as well. I think we're gonna start to see more stakeholder, more of a push towards a valuation of companies based on their ability to engage and impact their communities, not just their immediate stakeholders, but their broader set of stakeholders. That means the cities that they live in, the operating, all the variety of people, stakeholders. I think those companies are gonna be value-driven companies that people are gonna wanna invest more in, especially younger folks who are making conscious decisions, all of which is to say that

dax_devlon_ros (38:00.126)

more of a push towards a valuation of companies based on their ability to engage and impact their communities, not just their immediate stakeholders, but their broader set of stakeholders. That means the cities that they live in, the operating, all the variety of people, stakeholders think those companies are going to be value driven companies that people are going to want to invest more in, especially younger folks who are making conscious decisions, all of which is to say that old way was not working for us anymore. We needed something to push us out of it.

angela_r_howard (38:24.702)

old way was not working for us anymore. We needed something to push us out of it. And it was this pandemic. And unfortunately it has cost many, many lives and will cost many, many more. And we should recognize that the opportunity that has opened up for us to move forward as a species, as a humanity, as a collective is unprecedented and we must take advantage of it. I think the intelligent companies, which we're seeing the smart, the big companies are all doing it. And every day you see another company,

dax_devlon_ros (38:29.68)

was this pandemic and unfortunately it has cost many, many lives and will cost many, many more. And we should recognize that the opportunity that has opened up for us to move forward as a species, as a humanity, as a collective is unprecedented and we must take advantage of it. I think the intelligent companies, which we're seeing, the smart, the big companies are all doing it. And every day you see another company, Undefinite, because they recognize it's just not worth the fight. It's just not worth it.

angela_r_howard (38:54.582)

It's just not worth the fight. It's just not worth it. You know? So, that's who's gonna survive. And who will not is gonna be people who won't let go of a way of working that is really ultimately about their needs.

dax_devlon_ros (38:59.55)

You know, so that's who's gonna survive and who will not is gonna be people who won't let go of a way of a way of working that they that is that is really ultimately about their needs and about their anxieties, their inability to trust the inability to believe their inability to respect people's autonomy and need for autonomy and recognize that we all are seeking self actualization.

angela_r_howard (39:10.8)

and about their anxieties, their inability to trust, their inability to believe, their inability to respect people's autonomy and need for autonomy and recognize that we all are seeking self-actualization.

dax_devlon_ros (39:24.926)

And so why would you not set up the conditions for people to self actualize as much as possible and really reduce and understand that they are trying to serve and work and work in partnership with you? It's not a threat. It does mean, I think, I will say this, I do think we're going to see...

angela_r_howard (39:25.124)

And so why would you not set up the conditions for people to self-actualize as much as possible and really reduce and understand that they are trying to serve and work and work in partnership with you not it's not a threat It does mean I think I will say this. I do think we're going to see um a lot of the sort of middle management bureaucracy that has been built up around the companies And cultures become less and less and less relevant because a lot of that was a key component and feature of sort of

dax_devlon_ros (39:42.078)

a lot of the sort of middle management bureaucracy that has been built up around the companies and cultures become less and less, less and less relevant. Because a lot of that was a key component and feature of sort of the sort of in-person workplaces and it was a way for the pyramid to operate for that person at the top to be able to flow in from the cascade information and also hold authority and accountability. I think that's a lot of the sort of, there is a lot of superfluity inside in those middle spaces, unfortunately.

angela_r_howard (39:55.218)

in in-person workplaces and there's a way for the pyramid to operate for that person at the top to be able to flow in from the cascade information and then a whole and also hold authority and accountability I think that it's a lot of this sort of there is a lot of superfluity inside in those middle spaces Unfortunately a lot of those jobs and people who hold them know that like they ask themselves. What am I doing? What value am I adding?

dax_devlon_ros (40:12.092)

A lot of those jobs and people who hold them know that. They ask themselves, what am I doing? What value am I adding? So I think there's gonna be new opportunities for people to find and express their true value and their true purpose.

angela_r_howard (40:17.156)

So I think there's gonna be new opportunities for people to find and express their true value and their true purpose. But we do, the last thing I'll say is that is also going to be dependent upon, and I live in Washington, D.C., what also happens down the block from where I am right now in Washington around our social safety nets and the extent to which we're going to be ready and willing and able.

dax_devlon_ros (40:25.686)

But we do, the last thing I'll say is, that is also going to be dependent upon, and I live in Washington, D.C., what also happens down the block from where I am right now in Washington around our social safety nets and the extent to which we're going to be ready and willing and able to make sure that there are safety nets in place, that they're gonna support people to be able to make the, support people and companies to make the kinds of necessary transitions that we need to make. And right now, that to me is the most scary, that's the most frightening thing.

angela_r_howard (40:40.752)

to make sure that there are safety nets in place, that they're gonna support people to be able to make the, support people and companies to make the kinds of necessary transitions that we need to make. And right now.

That to me is the most scary, that's the most frightening thing. What 2022 and 2023 and 2024 have in store, I am uncertain about because I do know that these culture wars that we've been living through, maybe this past year has been a bit of a lull, it's about to get crazy again in the next two years because we already know Donald Trump's coming back, he's gonna be back out there and he's got a lot of people who support him and a lot of those people unfortunately are tied to an old way of doing things in the world, an old identity of America and their

dax_devlon_ros (40:55.62)

2023 and 2024 having store, I am uncertain about because I do know that these culture wars that we've been living through, maybe this past year has been a bit of a low. It's about to get crazy again in the next two years because we already know Donald Trump's coming back. He's going to be back out there and he's got a lot of people who support him. And a lot of those people, unfortunately, are tied to an old way of doing things in the world, an old identity of America. And they're very, very threatened by and fearful of this new world that we're building.

angela_r_howard (41:20.372)

very threatened by and fearful of this new world that we're building and that we want them to be part of as well, but they're very threatened by. So I think we are up, we have, there's a real struggle that we're going to be in over the next few years. We need to brace ourselves for, protect your energy, do your work, whatever you need to do, because we're about to get into it these next few years.

dax_devlon_ros (41:25.66)

them to be part of as well, but they're very threatened by it. So I think we are up, we have, there's a real struggle that we're going to be in over the next few years. We need to brace ourselves for, protect your energy, do your work, whatever you need to do, because we're about to get into it these next few years.

angela_r_howard (41:42.02)

Yeah, Dax, I think, you know, this is, and I love that you balanced kind of some of your last comments with reality, because it's true. I think us in this room, you and I together, are on the path to a movement, a revolution, a path of changing paradigms, changing tradition.

And there is this other group that is down the opposite path. And yes, yes. And first of all, I mean, I could talk to you all day. I feel like we need a whole other podcast episode on that topic alone. Part two. But I did want to close and just thank you. You are a gift to the world. Your work is phenomenal. And I am just so excited to be on this.

dax_devlon_ros (42:10.663)

70 million of them.

dax_devlon_ros (42:21.634)

Yeah.

dax_devlon_ros (42:28.774)

Hmm.

angela_r_howard (42:35.846)

path with you and in this movement with you. So thank you so much for joining. We will make sure to include links to your new book where people can find you and join the movement and be a part of some of the work you're doing. So thank you so much, Dax. And do not let me, do not think you're going to let this project, this podcast end without me saying thank you for...

dax_devlon_ros (42:52.727)

And do not let me, do not think you're gonna let this podcast end without me saying thank you for the work that you do.

angela_r_howard (43:00.048)

work that you do like your level of your bar is so high and I just need you to know that and you need to hear that.

dax_devlon_ros (43:01.61)

Your level of, your bar is so high, and I just need you to know that, and you need to hear that. The work you're putting out in the world, the work you do in the world, the light that you bring into the world, the space that you create for people like me to be a part of your world, all of that, I think, is indicative of your spirit, your character, and I know the quality of the work that you're doing in the world. So you are a gift, and it is a pleasure of mine to know you now, to work with you now, to call you a friend. I look forward to our past continuing to weave and cross,

angela_r_howard (43:11.656)

that you create for yourself.

angela_r_howard (43:15.796)

I think is indicative of your spirit, your character. And I know the quality of the work you're doing in the world. So you are a gift and it is a pleasure of mine to know you now, to work with you now, to call you a friend. I look forward to our past continuing to weave and cross. And I want to also lastly just give you like all the, all the, all the, all the best sort of like positive energy in the world as you finish that book. Just finish that thing, make it great, get it out there so I can have you on my show next year. Talking about your book. That's what we, that's the kind of thing

dax_devlon_ros (43:31.184)

Also lastly, just give you like all the all the all the all the best sort of like positive energy in the world as you finish that book. Just finish that thing, make it great, get it out there so I can have you on my show next year talking about your book. That's what we, that's the kind of thing we're trying to do here. So we have reciprocity at all times, reciprocity.

angela_r_howard (43:46.05)

So we have reciprocity at all times, reciprocity. Absolutely. You just, that touched my heart. So thank you so much. And I am excited for us to, there's so much synergy between our work. We're gonna do some great work together. So thank you, Dad. That's right. All right, y'all. Be well, have a great day.

dax_devlon_ros (43:59.234)

Yeah, that's right. That's right. All right, y'all be well. Have a great day.