Organizational Identity & Legacy with Alexander Brueckmann
angela_r__howard (00:02.018)
Hello, Alex, welcome to Humanly Possible. It's so great to see you and have you on. Hello, and thank you very much for having me, Angela. I've listened to quite some episodes of your podcast. Thank you for all the great work that you do. Oh, thank you. And I'm, first of all, it's a pleasure getting to know you. I know you and I have just had the opportunity to kind of connect, and actually we do a lot of similar work with organizational identity, so.
alex (00:07.953)
Hello and thank you very much for having me Angela. I've listened to quite some episodes of your podcast. Thank you for all the great work that you do.
alex (00:19.863)
that are getting to know you. I know you and I have just had the opportunity.
alex (00:27.596)
So I am really excited for our conversation today. I think you.
angela_r__howard (00:28.482)
I am really excited for our conversation today. I think you have put together some really fantastic application around this work, not just theory, not just constructs, but application. So let's start with an introduction. Tell us who you are and what makes you human.
alex (00:34.863)
together some really fantastic application around this work, not just theory, not just constructs, but application. So let's start with an introduction. Tell us who you are and what makes you different. I have many roles. For example, I'm a father to a 1 and 1 year old boy, a husband to a wife, and just recently moved from Germany to Canada. Recently means like 1 and 1 years ago.
angela_r__howard (00:50.018)
For example, I'm a father to a one and a half year old boy, a husband to a wife and
just recently moved from Germany to Canada, recently means like one and a half years ago. So what I do is I try to make a living here in this new country. But basically what I do is I consult with organizations, entrepreneurs and large organizations around the topic of strategy design and implementation. And in that process, using strategy design for more
alex (01:03.435)
So what I do is I try to make a living here in this new country. But basically what I do is I consult with organizations, entrepreneurs, and large organizations around the topic of strategy design and implementation. And in that process, using strategy design for more than just designing the strategy, but instead a lot of elements of what you call organizational identity.
angela_r__howard (01:27.304)
a lot of elements of what you call organizational identity, such as defining or redefining a company's purpose, helping an organization to understand who they serve and how they create value, all those things. Wonderful, well. It makes me human. Oh yeah, what makes you human, yes. I think I wanna approach it from a position of maybe anthropology, even if I'm not an anthropologist.
alex (01:31.027)
such as defining or redefining a company's purpose, helping an organization to understand who they serve and how they create value, all those things. What makes me human? I think I wanna, I think I wanna approach it from a position of maybe anthropology, even if I'm not an anthropologist. I think what makes us humans human is what defines
angela_r__howard (01:54.122)
I think what makes us humans human is what defines the difference between us and animals.
alex (01:58.711)
the difference between us and animals. And as far as I know, one of the biggest differences is us human beings, we can imagine ourselves in a different role, in a different position, in a different future. So we can actually imagine what we want to achieve and then consciously work towards it. So in other words, we can define a vision about the future and an intentional strategy in order to get there. I think my passion around this topic
angela_r__howard (02:03.026)
As far as I know, one of the biggest differences is us human beings, we can imagine ourselves in a different role in a different position in a different future. So we can actually imagine what we want to achieve, and then consciously work towards it. So in other words, we can define a vision about the future and an intentional strategy in order to get there. I think my passion around this topic is what eventually makes me human. I've always been someone who kind of
alex (02:28.727)
eventually makes me human. I've always been someone who kind of was futuristic, dreaming about the future, thinking about the future, sometimes to the detriment of the present, to be honest. But I kind of managed to balance those two aspects. So I guess that's what makes me human.
angela_r__howard (02:32.88)
futuristic, dreaming about the future, thinking about the future, sometimes to the detriment of the present, to be honest. But I kind of managed to balance those two aspects. So I guess that's what makes me human. I love that. We've never gotten that response before. So I love it. And I think it is a lot of our work is this kind of where we are and where we're trying to go and then how do you close the gap, right? That's what we're constantly working with organizations on.
alex (02:53.423)
And I think it is.
alex (03:00.552)
Absolutely.
angela_r__howard (03:03.92)
Help us understand because I know what you mean by organizational identity, but can you just break it down for us? Because I know you have a really great model that you've developed around what this is. And I know people get confused a lot with the terminology. So tell us a little bit about what makes up organizational identity.
alex (03:05.616)
because I know what you mean by organizational identity, but can you just break it down?
alex (03:15.503)
and I know.
Oh yeah.
angela_r__howard (03:22.974)
If you imagine organizational identity as a three layer cake, I love cakes. Yum. Let's use this analogy. There is a basis, then there is this creamy buttercream filling in the middle. And then you have.
alex (03:23.019)
If you imagine organizational identity as a three layer cake, I love cake, so let's use this analogy. There is a basis, then there is this creamy buttercream filling in the middle, and then you have, let's say, the glaze and the decorations and the icing. So yeah, the sprinkles and the candles and all that stuff.
angela_r__howard (03:40.554)
let's say the glazed and the decorations and the icing. Sprinkles. So yeah, the sprinkles and the candles and all that stuff. So let's talk for a moment about the base. What is the base? For me, the base consists of three distinct elements. The first one being an organization's purpose. What is the problem, the issue in this world that you are uniquely positioned to solve?
alex (03:51.595)
Let's talk for a moment about the base. What is the base? For me, the base consists of three distinct elements. The first one being an organization's purpose. What is the problem, the issue in this world that you are uniquely positioned to solve? That's what purpose means to me when I use this term. It's the why.
angela_r__howard (04:10.568)
that's what purpose means to me when I use this term. It's the why. It's the reason you get up every morning what fires your passion is that that's purpose. And there is organizational purpose and there is individual purpose and the magic happens when you align those two. When you are able as a leader to help your audience, in this case, your people, your employees, link their personal purpose.
alex (04:16.159)
It's the reason you get up every morning. What fires your passion? This is that that's purpose. And there is organizational purpose and there is individual purpose. And the magic happens when you align those two. When you are able as a leader to help your audience, in this case, your people, your employees, link their personal purpose to an organizational purpose and thereby making the organizational cause their own personal crusade.
angela_r__howard (04:40.448)
to an organizational purpose and thereby making the organizational cause their own personal crusade. That this is just where it goes boom. Yes, the magic. Exactly. Then the second element of this, in this base, in this cake base, is what I call...
alex (04:46.551)
that this is just where it goes BOOM.
Exactly. Then the second element of this, in this cake base, is what I call guiding principles. And what I mean by that is an organization needs to be first of all clear about their values, organizational values. And I'm not talking about those fancy terms that you see on corridor walls, on posters or on t-shirts or stuff like that. I'm talking about values.
angela_r__howard (05:02.562)
guiding principles. And what I mean by that is an organization needs to be first of all, clear about their values, organizational values. And I'm not talking about those fancy terms that you see on corridor walls on posters or on t shirts and stuff like that. I'm talking about values from a position of companion, something that informs how you interact with people as a human being. So I'm not talking about terms like respect, but actually about
alex (05:19.983)
from a position of companionate love, something that informs how you interact with people as a human being. So I'm not talking about terms like respect, but actually about what does that mean? What does respect mean? And I'll give you an example. One of my clients just recently said, one of our purposes is to be human-centric, good-willed, good-natured business people.
angela_r__howard (05:32.676)
what does that mean? What does respect mean? I'll give you an example. One of my clients just said one of our purposes is to be
human centric, good willed, good natured business people. So they need to balance in this value, they balance the way they interact with people, good natured human, but they also have a responsibility toward the organization that they work for. This is the business people piece in it. So
alex (05:48.003)
So they need to balance in this value, they balance the way they interact with people, good natured, human, but they also have a responsibility to what the organization that they work for. This is the business people piece in it.
angela_r__howard (06:03.41)
moving beyond those fancy words. I think this is what I'm really passionate about helping people get there and understand what they need. And the second piece about the second guiding principles is then are you bring those values to life in your day to day interactions. And that means more than just creating a code of conduct. That means to break down values into observable behaviors in day to day interactions with your
alex (06:03.431)
Moving beyond those fancy words, I think this is what I'm really passionate about, helping people get there and understand what they mean. And the second piece of guiding principles is then how you bring those values to life in your day-to-day interactions. And that means more than just creating a code of conduct. That means to break down values into observable behaviors in day-to-day interactions with your clients, with your vendors.
with your colleagues, with the communities that you serve, and so on. And then there is this third element in the cake base, which I call mission. And a mission is a phrase or a term that's being used in various ways. The way I understand it is, what is your business definition? It's the way you look at your organization and ask yourself without any fancy terminology around it, what is it that we do and whom do we do?
angela_r__howard (06:33.264)
your colleagues with the communities that you serve, and so on. And then there is this third element in the cake base, which I call mission. And a mission is a phrase or a term that's being used various ways. The way I understand it is what is your business definition? It's the way you look at your organization and ask yourself without any fancy terminology around it, what is it that we do? And who do we do?
and whom do we do it for? Is that proper English? Yes, yes, all the whom's. Yes, exactly. So in a nutshell, when you ask yourself, what am I doing? I could tell you, me as Alex, I could tell you my mission is to...
alex (07:04.464)
And who do we do it for? Is that proper English? Yes, exactly. So in a nutshell when you ask yourself, what am I doing? I could tell you, me as Alex, I could tell you my mission is to help leaders change the world. That is way too fancy. That's not what I'm looking for. When I take a look at mission, a business definition, I consult with leaders in organizations
angela_r__howard (07:20.098)
help leaders change the world. That is way too fancy. That's not what I'm looking for. Right. I'm, when I take a look at mission, a business definition, I consult with leaders in organizations to help them define and roll out a strategy. And in this process, ideally more than just a strategy. That's what I do. It's business consulting in the end. If you boil it down to the core. So we've got the cake base covered. Now let's move to the fancy filling, you know?
alex (07:32.335)
to help them define and roll out a strategy. And in this process, ideally, more than just a strategy. That's what I do. It's business consulting in the end, if you boil it down to the core. So we've got the cake base covered. Now let's move to the fancy filling, you know, the buttercream, as we love it.
angela_r__howard (07:50.032)
the buttercream. The rich, creamy, delicious part of the cake. Exactly. This is where the strategy piece then sits. So when I use the term strategy, what I mean is, what's your vision? Meaning, where do you want to be? How does your business look like in three to five years? Then how do you measure that you get there? How do you break down this dream into manageable, measurable elements? And how do you?
alex (07:55.643)
Exactly. This is where the strategy piece then sits. So, and when I, when I used the term strategy, what I mean is what's your vision, meaning where do you want to be? How does your business look like in three to five years? Then how do you measure that you get there? How do you break down those, this dream into manageable, measurable elements? And how do you then work toward those elements? How do you-
angela_r__howard (08:19.746)
then work toward those elements. How do you break them down into actionable work packages? This is where you bring your vision into action, your strategy into action. So we often use the term vision to describe your three to five year goal, then a strategy map like Kaplan and Norton strategy map concept.
alex (08:25.071)
break them down into actionable work packages. This is where you bring your vision into action, your strategy into action. So we often use the term vision to describe your three to five year goal. Then a strategy map like Kaplan and Norton strategy map concept to actually put it into practice. And then the third element in this middle cake layer is our goals. The goals help you.
angela_r__howard (08:45.002)
to actually put it into practice. And then the third element in this middle cake layer is our goals. The goals help you qualify and quantify your strategy and to put it into action. And then you round out the entire cake by taking a look at your top cake, at your top lever, all the glazing, all the sprinkles. And those are the, let's say...
alex (08:53.667)
qualify and quantify your strategy and to put it into action. And then you round out the entire cake by taking a look at your top cake, at your top lever, all the glazing, all the sprinkles, and those are the, let's say, those are the elements that you need to make your strategy stick. Asking questions like what capabilities do my people and my leadership team need in order to successfully implement the strategy?
angela_r__howard (09:09.974)
those are the elements that you need to make your strategy stick. Asking questions like what capabilities do my people and my leadership team need in order to successfully implement the strategy? Which management systems do we need to put in place in order to help us not fall back, not revert into old behavior patterns, into old things, old ways of working. And, um,
alex (09:21.323)
Which management systems do we need to put in place in order to help us not fall back, not revert into old behavior patterns, into old things and old ways of working? And, um, I guess we talked about capabilities, we talked about management systems. And the third element of this, um, outside layer is individual targets. And what I mean by that is how do I help every individual in my organization find their place?
angela_r__howard (09:34.706)
I guess we talked about capabilities, we talked about management systems, and the third element of this outside layer is individual targets. And what I mean by that is how do I help every individual in my organization find their place, find and understand how they add value, how they contribute to the bigger picture, how they help us implement the desired performance culture, how do we implement strategy, what
alex (09:51.587)
find and understand how they add value, how they contribute to the bigger picture, how they help us implement the desired performance culture, how do we implement strategy, what is their contribution to success? This is a key ingredient to motivate people. I guess that's my framework. Yeah.
angela_r__howard (10:04.56)
their contribution to success. This is a key ingredient to motivate people. I guess that's my framework. Yeah, no, I love the layering analogy because the foundational pieces that you talked about are so foundational. And I think, well, let me ask you this because one of the things I notice companies oftentimes get caught up on is this idea of purpose
alex (10:25.999)
Let me ask you this, because one of the things I noticed...
often times get caught up on is this idea of purpose and why they exist and gearing that toward the employees or gearing that toward their customers. Yeah. Do you have any...
angela_r__howard (10:34.52)
we exist and gearing that toward the employees or gearing that toward their customers. Do you have any I don't know insight into how to dig into that and really come to a realization as to where to focus that purpose?
alex (10:52.719)
with weirdo.
angela_r__howard (10:56.606)
I think this is a great question. And I have to admit that I don't have a clear answer to that, because I've seen various different purpose statements that go in different directions, and that are completely firing up the people that work in this organization. I give you an example, a company that I work with very often is the pharmaceutical and diagnostics company Roche, Swiss company, but they are all over the world. But the unifying element is their purpose
alex (10:56.719)
I think this is a great question and I have to admit that I don't have a clear answer to that because I've seen various different purpose statements that go in different directions and that are completely firing up the people that work in this organization. I'll give you an example. A company that I work with very often is the pharmaceutical and diagnostics company Roche, Swiss company, but they are all over the world. But the unifying element is their purpose statement, which is doing now.
what patients need next. And honestly speaking, I know many employees at Roch that are completely fired up by that purpose, because that's the reason they are there. They might have suffered from cancer or another disease themselves in the past, and know how important that is. And when I got in touch with the company for the first time, this purpose even fired up myself. I was completely on board with that. I was like,
angela_r__howard (11:26.48)
patients need next. And honestly speaking, I know many employees at Roch that are completely fired up by that purpose. Because that's why, that's the reason they are there. They might have suffered from cancer or another disease themselves in the past and know how important that is. And when I got in touch with the company for the first time, this purpose even fired up myself.
alex (11:56.075)
Yes, I want to help them do this. This is what I'm in for. So to give you a general answer, I believe the moment you find your purpose, it will be so overwhelming that you might even start becoming very emotional about it. It is, as Steve Jobs put it, the ding you put out there in the universe. If you find this piece, this ding for yourself,
angela_r__howard (11:56.42)
I want to help them do this. This is what I'm in for. So to give you a general answer, I believe the moment you find your purpose, it will be so overwhelming that you might even start becoming very emotional about it. It is that, as Steve Jobs put it, the ding you put out there in the universe. If you find this piece, this ding for yourself,
alex (12:25.163)
If you find and define the unique value that you bring to the world, this can be toward your clients, it can be toward a major cause like helping preserve and protect the environment. It can be toward all kinds of different stakeholders if you want, but it needs to be grand and idealistic. It needs to be more than transformational, transactional. It needs to be transformational. This is where it touches your soul.
angela_r__howard (12:27.38)
the unique value that you bring to the world, this can be toward your clients, it can be toward a major cause like helping preserve and protect the environment, it can be toward all kinds of different stakeholders if you want, but it needs to be grand and idealistic, it needs to be more than transactional, it needs to be transformational. This is where it touches
alex (12:54.879)
and what makes purpose really, really valuable.
angela_r__howard (12:56.24)
really, really valuable. Love that. And you know, I can't help but think.
We're talking a lot right now about the future of work, buzzword, the future of work. And folks like you and I, I think, have been talking about organizational identity for a while, and people-centered leadership, and all those things that are now becoming more and more prevalent, and people are realizing it's so important. So what is the place for this work in the future of work? Where is it going to be especially important? And how does it?
alex (13:06.891)
Yeah. Buzzword. The future of work.
like you and I have been talking about organization.
alex (13:18.268)
things that are now becoming
alex (13:25.327)
What is the place?
Where is it going to be?
angela_r__howard (13:32.116)
another question, maybe the next question is, how does it connect to culture? Because we're kind of getting there with the cake analogy. But let's start with the question around what place it has in the future of work.
alex (13:32.223)
Maybe another question, maybe the next question is, how does it connect to culture? Yeah. With the cake analogy. Let's start with the question around what place.
angela_r__howard (13:46.674)
It's a very interesting discussion. So right now at the moment where we record this episode, the discussion is around, will people ever return to their workplaces, for example, right. And there is a wild discussion going on in various forums on LinkedIn, for example, about whether employees are now
alex (13:46.771)
It's a very interesting discussion. So right now at the moment where we record this episode, the discussion is around will people ever return to their workplaces, for example, right? And there is a wild discussion going on in various forums on LinkedIn, for example, about whether employees are now in a stronger position than their employers or whether
angela_r__howard (14:10.206)
in a stronger position than their employers, or whether employers will just sit there and wait until credit card debt gets higher and the savings are running out and then people will come back to work kind of. I love this discussion because it opens up a more human side of work. It sheds a light on us as human beings, not only as employees or as a human resource in
alex (14:14.279)
employers will just sit there and wait until credit card debt gets higher and the savings are running out and then people will come back to work kind of. I love this discussion because it opens up a more human side of work. It sheds a light on us as human beings, not only as employees or as a human resource in the sense of someone delivering something for an organization. So when it comes to the future of work.
angela_r__howard (14:40.16)
an organization. So when it comes to the future of work, we've seen the trend clearly over the past decade already that purpose-driven companies are financially more successful. So this is not fluff, this is financially viable for an organization in order to be more successful. You need to have a clear purpose in place, you need to have your identity figured out. If you don't believe me,
alex (14:44.523)
We've seen the trend clearly over the past decade already that purpose driven companies are financially more successful. So this is not fluff. This is financially viable for an organization in order to be more successful. You need to have a clear purpose in place. You need to have your identity figured out. Um, if you don't believe me, maybe you believe McKinsey and company. They've done extensive research around that. Um,
angela_r__howard (15:10.02)
in company, they've done extensive research around that. This human centric organization is totally on board with that. So I believe that it will become more and more important for organizations because of one reason. If you are not managing to give your people purpose, and I'm not meaning to tell them about their purposes, I mean to help them align their individual purpose to the organizational purpose,
alex (15:13.899)
this human centric organization is totally on board with that. So I believe that it will become more and more important for organizations because of one reason. If you are not managing to give your people purpose, and I'm not meaning to tell them what their purpose is, I mean to help them align their individual purpose to the organizational purpose. If you're not able to help people...
angela_r__howard (15:40.14)
people
create a sense of belonging and participation, you will lose your best talent. And as we all know, especially when it comes to knowledge workers, replacing talent is way more expensive than retaining talent. So you better, as an organization, you better figure out a way how you provide meaning, how you provide belonging, participation, and how you help people see how they contribute to the bigger picture,
alex (15:42.511)
create a sense of belonging and participation, you will lose your best talent. And as we all know, especially when it comes to knowledge workers, replacing talent is way more expensive than retaining talent. So you better, as an organization, you better figure out a way how you provide meaning, how you provide belonging, participation, and how you help people see how they contribute to the bigger picture.
and thereby motivate them to walk the extra mile. Not because you tell them to, but because they want to. I think this is probably the way I would explain the position or the contribution of organizational identity in this new world.
angela_r__howard (16:12.92)
to walk the extra mile. Not because you tell them to, but because they want to. I think this is probably the way I would explain...
the position or the contribution of organizational identity in this new world. And I think what you're talking about is culture. And I think we sometimes, there's different definitions of what culture is. I can tell you what culture is not. Culture is not the ping pong table at the office. Office culture is going away. And it's actually, you know, something that...
I think now we're starting to realize that culture does not live within four walls. And we've built a workplace, a traditional workplace around the building.
alex (16:57.455)
Yes.
angela_r__howard (16:59.814)
And I think the people who have thought that way are starting to kind of get their minds blown, like, oh, well, we don't have, well, where's our culture if we don't have an office? So I think that as you were talking, I was thinking about the fact that what we're talking about here is what culture is. So rather than focusing on the physical space, start to focus on the cake. And the layers of the cake, are they clear? Are they communicated? Are you hiring, firing, retaining, promoting?
alex (17:00.623)
I think the people who have thought that way are starting to kind of get their minds blown. Like, oh, we don't have, well, where's our culture if we don't have an office? So I think that as you were talking, I was thinking about the fact that what we're talking about here is what culture is. So rather than focusing on physical space, start to focus on the cake. And the layers of the cake, are they clear? Are they communicated? Are you hiring, firing, retaining, promoting?
angela_r__howard (17:28.886)
developing against what's in that cake. And I think that's another piece that we have to start to shift the conversation to. Absolutely. And are you willing to walk the talk? Are you not only firing people that are not in line with that and are violating your values and your purpose and your mission, it goes way beyond that. Put your money where your mouth is. Are you willing to let go of clients that are not in line with that?
alex (17:29.647)
developing against what's in that case. And that's another piece that we have to start to shift the conversation. Absolutely. And are you willing to walk the talk? Are you not only firing people that are not in line with that and are violating your values and your purpose and your mission? It goes way beyond that. Put your money where your mouth is. Are you willing to let go of clients that are not in line with that? Are you serving clients that are clearly...
angela_r__howard (17:56.966)
Are you serving clients that are clearly acting against your core values and things like that? So the topic of culture is very, very interesting because culture is what happens when no one looks at you. It's when no one is around to control you. Culture is the derivative of leadership and strategy or organizational identity as a whole. You cannot just go into a company and say, let's do a culture project because I think we need to improve on our culture. That's just not how it goes.
alex (17:59.635)
acting against your core values and things like that. So the topic of culture is very, very interesting because culture is what happens when no one looks at you. It's when no one is around to control you. Culture is a derivative of leadership and strategy or organizational identity as a whole. You cannot just go into a company and say, let's do a culture project because I think we need to improve on our culture. That's just not how it goes.
angela_r__howard (18:26.94)
This is the fluff stuff, right? This is what you said earlier. It's the ping-pong table. It's the free fruit for everyone. It's the feel-good atmosphere in the office. But hey, there is more to work than that. And from my own experience, I can tell you I'm way more interested in working in an aligned team that's pulling in the same direction, that has a feedback culture where
alex (18:27.011)
This is the fluff stuff, right? This is what you said earlier. It's the, it's the ping pong table. It's the free fruit for everyone. It's the feel good atmosphere in the office, but Hey, there is more to work than that. And from my own experience, I can tell you I'm way more interested in working in an aligned team that's pulling in the same direction that has a, a feedback culture where everyone can tell you what they think.
because they have your best interest and your growth in mind, rather than a culture of secrets, of hiding, of not sharing. A ping pong table is a ping pong table. It's not culture. Culture is what happens when you as a leadership team are able to touch the hearts and minds of people and have them understand their place.
angela_r__howard (18:56.98)
and your growth in mind rather than a culture of secrets, of hiding, of not sharing.
A ping pong table is a ping pong table. It's not culture. Culture is what happens when you as a leadership team are able to touch the hearts and minds of people and have them understand their place, help them thrive, help them grow as individuals. They take care of the rest. If you take care of the people, they take care of your business, as they say. Yes, I am so excited that you mentioned leadership.
alex (19:23.863)
help them thrive, help them grow as individuals, they take care of the rest. If you take care of the people, they take care of your business, as they say.
angela_r__howard (19:36.804)
because this is a topic I'm especially passionate about. I think that we're talking about some elements that are driven by top level leadership for the most part. Like the development of purpose typically has a kind of a two pronged approach. I think your executives or your top level leadership.
alex (19:43.631)
I think that we're talking about.
angela_r__howard (20:00.926)
need to drive it and maybe collect some groundswell feedback to develop that purpose. But there has to be real clarity around that executive team, but also the broader leadership team. And so tell us a little bit about the role of leadership in...
alex (20:13.423)
So.
angela_r__howard (20:19.622)
actualizing what's in the cake. Because I see leaders as like stewards of whatever you develop, right? That beautiful cake that you've created. Your leaders are the stewards of that. And I think oftentimes people are promoted into leadership roles because they're good technical experts. They're not strategists, they're not people leaders, they're not thought leaders. So how do we need to be thinking about leadership differently to make this work?
alex (20:23.148)
Because I see leaders as like stewards.
alex (20:28.62)
that you created, your leaders are the stewards.
I think often times people are promoted into leadership roles because they're good technical experts. They're not strategists, they're not people leaders, they're not thought leaders. So how do we need to be thinking about leadership differently to make this work? First of all, leadership is about people, not about results. So when you are promoted into a leadership position, your focus needs to shift on how can I...
angela_r__howard (20:50.23)
First of all, leadership is about people, not about results.
So when you're promoted into a leadership position, your focus needs to shift on how can I achieve results through the people that I lead. It's less how can I personally achieve results. If you were a super successful sales manager in the past and you're now the director of sales, you better not focus on selling yourself so much but leveraging and leveraging your
alex (21:02.751)
achieve results through the people that I lead. It's less, how can I personally achieve results? If you were a super successful sales manager in the past and you're now the director of sales, you better not focus on selling yourself so much, but leveraging and leveraging your people and improving the knowledge in your people so that they can be successful. And in order to, in order to embrace this new responsibility,
angela_r__howard (21:25.352)
successful. And in order to in order to embrace this new responsibility, organizations need to help their leaders, especially newly appointed leaders, but also, frankly speaking, I've worked with people that were 20 years in leadership positions, and still didn't get that point. It's because their organization values short term results over long term results. They don't invest in their leaders, they just feel they make it work somehow, they wing it somehow.
alex (21:32.587)
Organizations need to help their leaders, especially newly appointed leaders. But also frankly speaking, I've worked with people that were 20 years in leadership positions and still didn't get that point. Um, it's because their organization values short-term results over long-term results. They don't invest in their leaders. They just feel they make it work somehow. They wing it somehow, but that's just not how it works. And, um, those are the leaders that then burn out their people. Because.
angela_r__howard (21:55.312)
just not how it works. And those are the leaders that then burn out their people. Because they just try to overachieve and over control, they start micromanaging their people, instead of enabling them. So one of the first steps when it comes to working on your culture, on your strategy, on your identity as a whole as an organization, must be to help your leadership population,
alex (22:02.115)
they just try to overachieve and over control. They start micromanaging their people instead of enabling them to grow. So one of the first steps when it comes to working on your culture, on your strategy, on your identity as a whole as an organization must be to help your leadership population, especially those at the top and in the middle. The largest piece, help them understand
angela_r__howard (22:25.592)
those at the top and in the middle, the largest piece, help them understand what it means to lead transformation. And there is a distinct set of capabilities that you need to display as a leader in order to be able to lead transformation, to lead change. It is different than anything that they've done before in a
alex (22:32.075)
what it means to lead transformation. And there is a distinct set of capabilities that you need to display as a leader in order to be able to lead transformation, to lead change. It is different than anything that they've done before in a technical expert role, for example. And some of those elements that I refer to that make you a transformation leader,
angela_r__howard (22:55.072)
And some of those elements that I refer to that make you a transformation leader, they are not necessarily skills, they are, they have a lot to do with your self perception with your ego with your mindset. For example, one of those six capabilities that I see paramount for driving change, or driving and leading transformation is selflessness,
alex (23:01.003)
They are not necessarily skills. They are, they have a lot to do with your self-perception, with your ego, with your mindset. For example, one of those six capabilities that I see paramount for driving change or driving and leading transformation is selflessness. Selflessness as a leader, being clear on what you are as a leader. You are a servant. Your job is not to shine.
angela_r__howard (23:25.112)
what you are as a leader, you are a servant, your job is not to shine, your job is to help others shine. And this approach is different to being a super successful sales manager, you need the spotlight, you want to be on stage, you're outgoing. This is different now. Yes, it's, it's different. It's humble leadership. Yeah. Move your ego aside. Humble leadership. Exactly.
alex (23:30.027)
Your job is to help others shine. And this, this approach is different to being a super successful sales manager. You need the spotlight. You want to be on stage. You're outgoing. This is different now. It's, it's different. It's selfless. It's move your ego aside. Humble leadership. Exactly. Um, and if an organization manages to help their leaders understand
angela_r__howard (23:53.778)
And if an organization manages to help their leaders understand the role as a catalyst, for example, that they have for transformation, if I help my leaders with skills, like how do I lead a discussion, a dialogue about our strategy, about our identity, all of a sudden, those topics are not just for them up there, right? These are topics for everyone.
alex (23:58.935)
the role as a catalyst, for example, that they have for transformation. If I help my leaders with skills like, how do I lead a discussion, a dialogue about our strategy, about our identity, all of a sudden, those topics are not just for them up there, these are topics for everyone. And all of a sudden, I'm like, wait a minute, why are we talking about...
angela_r__howard (24:23.632)
And I'm like, wait a minute, why are we talking about...
values. Why are we talking about strategy? We're not doing this like in a town hall where the CEO presents the new strategy. We're really like, what's our piece here? How can we help push the envelope? How can we be mindful and conscious about our contribution? And it's not just me as a leader telling them what to do or telling them what I believe we should do. It's about listening.
alex (24:28.395)
Values, why are we talking about strategy? We're not doing this like in a town hall where the CEO presents the new strategy We're really like what's our piece here? How can we help push the envelope? How can we? be mindful and conscious about our contribution and it's not just me as a leader telling them what to do or telling them what I believe we should do it's about listening it's about facilitating a two-way dialogue and
bringing those ideas and thoughts up the chain again. And you know, it's a reiterating cycle here that makes us better step by step. And I think this is the core role of leadership today. To step aside, to make space for discussions and conversation about culture, about identity, about strategy.
angela_r__howard (24:58.384)
ideas and thoughts up the chain again. And, you know, it's the reiterating cycle here that makes us better step by step. And I think this is the core role of leadership today, to step aside, to make space for discussions and conversation about culture, about identity, about strategy.
Absolutely. Yeah, you know, the one thing that I've said a lot, you know, I have these big ideas around HR and what we should be, or business consultants and what we should be. And, you know, my philosophy is I want to work myself out of a job, right? I want to help you build the cake, and then your leaders are the ones who are sustaining that work.
alex (25:34.159)
Big eye, big eye.
alex (25:46.682)
Yep. I want to build, help you build the cake.
angela_r__howard (25:54.706)
And so if you do this right, you don't need a business consultant. And that's why I love this work, because I want to be able to scale this within organizations and have a lasting legacy and impact after I leave. And I know you have a similar philosophy around this. So what is the legacy element when it comes to leadership and organizational identity? Because I think the leadership mentality that you talked about
alex (25:54.919)
Absolutely.
alex (26:07.939)
Yes.
alex (26:11.972)
So.
alex (26:19.415)
I think the leaders.
angela_r__howard (26:22.286)
The selflessness, the, you know, I always say, you know, as leaders, it's our job to send happy or healthy or humans home. Like if you think about that as a legacy and outside of just the workplace, you know, you're sending, people spend eight hours, eight, 10 hours a day at work. You are impacting their mental health, their livelihoods, their ability to feel purpose. And so what is the legacy element of this and how should leaders be thinking about that? I believe there is a threefold.
alex (26:25.579)
I always say, as leaders, it's our job to send happier, healthier, human homes. If you think about that as a legacy, and outside of just the workplace, you're sending... People spend eight hours, eight, ten hours a day at work. You are impacting their mental health, their livelihoods, their ability to feel purpose. Yep. So what is the legacy element of this, and how should leaders be thinking about that? I believe there is a three-fold responsibility.
angela_r__howard (26:51.97)
um responsibility that leaders have um and i often call this the trident of legacy they have a responsibility toward the people that they lead and this can be in their um in their spare time for example a sports club or a church or anything like that um but obviously also at work so the people that they lead is the first one the second one is the organization that they represent
alex (26:54.623)
that leaders have. And I often call this the trident of legacy. They have a responsibility toward the people that they lead and this can be in their spare time, for example, in a sports club or a church or anything like that, but obviously also at work. So the people that they lead is the first one. The second one is the organization that they represent. They are the face of a company.
angela_r__howard (27:20.79)
They are.
the face of a company as a leader, if you want it or not, you need to be aware of that, once you become a leader. And they have a responsibility toward organized toward society as a whole. And the legacy can be very, very different. At the same time, if you imagine a leader that has been a catalyst for your own development, that has been championing you mentoring you, you might look at that leader at some point in time and be like,
alex (27:23.655)
as a leader, if you want it or not, you need to be aware of that once you become a leader. And they have a responsibility toward society as a whole. And the legacy can be very, very different at the same time. If you imagine a leader that has been a catalyst for your own development, that has been championing you, mentoring you, you might look at that leader at some point in time and be like,
angela_r__howard (27:51.826)
absolutely amazing what I owe to this person. They made me who I am. They helped me grow. This is a very, very positive legacy to work toward. At the same time, this might came to the detriment of your own work deliverables. So senior management might take a look at you and be like, he's a really good people developer, but not so much when it comes to managing his own
alex (27:51.827)
absolutely amazing what I owe to this person. They made me who I am. They helped me grow. This is a very, very positive legacy to work toward. At the same time, this might came to the detriment of your own work deliverables. So senior management might take a look at you and be like, he's a really good, good people developer, but not so much when it comes to managing his own objectives as a contributor.
So your legacy might be kind of neutral in that sense, if you know what I mean. And then your legacy toward society as a whole can look completely different. Imagine you're a mining corporation. Society might take a look at you and be like, you might think that you mine for precious metals. We see you as one of the biggest destroyers of habitat and the planet. This can be a very, very bad.
angela_r__howard (28:21.68)
in that sense, if you know what I mean. And then your legacy toward society as a whole can look completely different. Imagine you're a mining corporation. Society might take a look at you and be like, you might think that you mine for precious metals. We see you as one of the biggest destroyers of habitat and the planet. This can be a very, very bad reputation. And in that sense,
alex (28:49.275)
reputation and in that sense a legacy that is doubtful. So depending on you as a person, on the organization you represent and your impact on society, your legacy can be super different in each of those areas and your focus might vary. Some people are very clear on their legacy toward the people they lead. And this is kind of normal because this is
angela_r__howard (28:51.68)
legacy that is doubtful. So depending on you as a person on the organization you represent, and your impact on society, your legacy can be super different in each of those areas. And your focus might vary. Some people are very clear on their legacy toward the people they lead. And this is kind of normal because this is these are the people that you have most interaction with.
alex (29:16.663)
These are the people that you have most interaction with. The legacy toward representing the organization you are a part of is kind of close also naturally. When it comes to the legacy of an organization you work for, it depends. Take a look at Coca-Cola for example, or Disney. What is their legacy? Can you tell as a leader in this company what their legacy is? I'm not 100% sure.
angela_r__howard (29:21.52)
who are representing the organization you are a part of is kind of close also naturally. When it comes to the legacy of an organization you work for, it depends. Take a look at Coca-Cola for example, or Disney.
What is their legacy? Can you tell as a leader in this company what their legacy is? I'm not 100% sure. If you take a look at Patagonia, for example, the legacy of a company that is very vocal about their values and that puts their money where their mouth is, I believe that as a leader, you are very clear on what your legacy as an organization is as a whole towards society. If that makes sense. Yeah, no, absolutely. I think it's, I think it comes down to the individual's intent. Absolutely. Right?
alex (29:43.615)
If you take a look at Patagonia, for example, the legacy of a company that is very vocal about their values and that puts their money where their mouth is, I believe that as a leader, you are very clear on what your legacy as an organization is as a whole towards society. If that makes sense.
alex (30:02.125)
I think.
alex (30:05.799)
Absolutely.
angela_r__howard (30:07.588)
people are super lucky to be able to build legacy in all three of those areas. I think about the work that I do, for example. I work within organizations, but I also take a human-centric, well, we both do take this human-centric approach to our...
alex (30:12.097)
Yeah.
alex (30:17.807)
in organizations but I also I take a
angela_r__howard (30:24.618)
like the way we do things. And so I think the, would you agree that the, the sweet spot would be that you're kind of touching all three of those, or do you feel like just naturally people default to one or two, for example? This is a very good question.
alex (30:31.587)
that you're.
alex (30:40.675)
This is a very good question. I believe that at different stages in your career, your focus invariably shifts to different elements of your, of your trident of legacy, if you wish. When you're a young leader and you are first time in a leadership position, you might struggle with the concept of leadership even. So your focus will probably be, and I'm talking about myself here right now.
angela_r__howard (30:42.25)
I believe that at different stages in your career, your focus invariably shifts to different elements of your trident of legacy, if you wish. When you are a young leader, and you are first time in a leadership position, you might...
struggle with the concept of leadership even. So your focus will probably be, and I'm talking about myself here right now, I struggled a lot in my first leadership position. I bought every book about leadership I could get my hand on and still wasn't able to put this stuff into practice. So my focus here was clearly what do I do? What's the right way? How can I make sure I don't
alex (31:08.391)
I struggled a lot in my first leadership position. I bought every book about leadership I could get my hand on and still wasn't able to put this stuff into practice. So my focus here was clearly, what do I do? How can I make sure I don't drive the people away from me through my behavior? So your focus is more toward your team. When you grow older and get more senior and...
angela_r__howard (31:30.22)
your focus is more toward your team. When you grow older and get more senior and slowly get your head around the topic and the concept of leadership and find your groove as a leader, I think your horizon broadens up a bit. So you will probably focus more on the other elements of legacy toward the organization you represent and society as a whole.
alex (31:36.103)
slowly get your head around the topic and the concept of leadership and find your groove as a leader, I think your horizon broadens up a bit. So you will probably focus more on the other elements of legacy toward the organization you represent and society as a whole.
angela_r__howard (32:00.298)
Well, we talked a lot about a lot of things. I mean, we talked about organizational identity. We talked about leadership. And I think I love the fact that you kind of started this conversation with strategy and leadership and why those two things really are so important for driving culture. And I think kind of ending this conversation about legacy and the bigger picture, it's even bigger than just the organization. I mean, really connecting it to society
alex (32:03.919)
Okay.
alex (32:26.546)
even bigger.
alex (32:30.131)
Yes.
angela_r__howard (32:30.392)
and even humanitarian efforts. I mean, I think organizations more and more are finding that their stance and their identity on these things too are really important, especially with this upcoming generation. So anything that you want to leave us with, any parting words, anything that kind of would tie the bow on these two topics of organizational identity and legacy and leadership.
alex (32:35.727)
organizations more and more are finding that their stance and their identity on the internet is not just about the internet.
alex (32:45.071)
Anything that you want to leave us with, any parting words, anything that kind of would tie the bow on these two.
alex (32:56.519)
This is a very broad question Angela Well, I actually I actually believe that it's Less complicated than most people think putting strategy into practice is easier than it feels for many Often what I saw in the past years is people that in organizations They see the term strategy and they'd be like, oh my god, just another strategy I just
angela_r__howard (32:56.578)
This is a very broad question. Yes. Throwing it all out. I actually believe that it's less complicated than most people think. Putting strategy into practice is easier than it feels for many. Often what I saw in the past years is people that, in organizations, they see the term strategy and they'd be like, oh my God, just another strategy.
just duck and cover and hope that the storm passes. You don't have to be that way. If you are a leader in an organization, small or large, strategy is...
alex (33:25.283)
duck and cover and hope that the storm passes. It's, you don't have to be that way. If you are a leader in an organization, small or large, strategy is a set of priorities, an intentional way to getting to your vision, to your three to five year goal. That's what it is. Imagine it as you hop into your car, you've never been to this particular...
angela_r__howard (33:38.222)
set of priorities an intentional way to Getting to your vision to your three to five year goal. That's what it is. Imagine it as You hop into your car. You've never been to this particular
seaside resort where you want to spend your vacation. What do you do? You type the destination in your GPS system, right? So and what happens then is your strategy. It's the way toward and if you demystify the term strategy and terms like purpose and terms like vision and terms like culture, if you help people break down those elements and help them understand what they are,
alex (33:55.059)
Seaside resort where you want to spend your vacation. What do you do? You you type the destination in your GPS system, right? So and what happens then is your strategy. It's the way toward the goal and if you demystify the term strategy and terms like purpose in terms like vision in terms like culture if you help people break down Those elements and help them understand what they are all of a sudden these are
Buzzwords corporate buzzwords anymore all of a sudden these elements become very graspable Manageable and you find your place wherever you sit in an organization To contribute to making something happen and I think this is one of the biggest levers that leaders have today to help people Understand their contribution and thereby motivating them Or finding something that suits them more
angela_r__howard (34:24.815)
words, corporate buzzwords anymore, all of a sudden, these elements become very graspable, manageable, and you find your place wherever you sit in an organization to contribute to making something happen. And I think this is one of the biggest levers that leaders have today to help people understand their contribution and thereby motivating them. Or
angela_r__howard (34:54.05)
finding something that suits them more. Yeah, I actually, I'm glad you mentioned that last part because I think that the purpose or the intent behind these things are not, it is to paint the landscape and help people understand what the purpose and the direction of the company is. I don't think we do enough of those tough conversations.
alex (35:07.108)
It is too...
alex (35:15.005)
I don't think we do enough of those.
angela_r__howard (35:19.666)
you know, to say this is where we're going. And our goal is to make sure everyone who works here is purposeful, and that may mean doing that somewhere else. You know, relationships and, you know.
relationships within an organization don't always have to end with that person staying there. And so I think the more individually we can be really self-aware, especially now, I think you're seeing the great resignation, right? And everybody's really getting clear on, what is it that I want? And I think the conversations are going to start to open up now where someone's going to say, you know what, this was not what I signed up for.
I think my talents and value can be used better elsewhere. And I think those conversations need to come without ego on the other side. Because I think sometimes leaders get.
upset at those conversations and say, okay, well, you know, well then leave. But really it should be a admirable parting conversation and figuring out how you can transition that person to the next step and ensure that the human behind that person, right, the whole human behind that person is getting what they're seeking and what they're aspiring to. Totally agree.
alex (36:17.687)
Well, you know, we'll then leave. But really it should be an admirable parting conversation and figuring out how you can transition that person to the next step and ensure that the human behind that person, right, the whole human behind that person is getting what they're seeking and what they're aspiring to. Totally agree. Absolutely agree. Well, Alex, I just want to thank you again. This was a great conversation. I love...
angela_r__howard (36:39.382)
Love it. Well, Alex, I just want to thank you again. This was a great conversation. I love talking about this bigger picture of culture and legacy and how they're connected. And also, I think it just it also gets to the human experience, which I love to talk about. So thank you so much for sharing your expertise and your knowledge. I also know you have a book coming out, so maybe you could share a little bit of that and then we can also.
alex (36:46.287)
talking about this bigger picture of culture and legacy and how they're connected. And also I think it just, it also gets to the human experience, which I love to talk about. So thank you so much for sharing your expertise and your knowledge.
I also know you have a book coming out, so maybe you could share a little bit of that, and then we can also make sure we post it on the show notes as well. But tell us a little bit about your book and when people can expect to buy it. I would actually suggest that the book will be available in first quarter next year. So publishing a book takes apparently longer than writing a book, but hey, this is just part of the process. Yeah, the book is about how to create organizational identity from a mindful perspective.
angela_r__howard (37:07.986)
Make sure we post it on the show notes as well. But tell us a little bit about your book and when people can expect to buy it.
suggest that the book will be available in first quarter next year. So publishing a book takes apparently longer than writing a book. Oh I'm sure. This is just part of the process. Yes. Yeah the book is about how to create organizational identity from a mindful perspective. So it's a guide for leaders how to create their performance culture using intentional strategy processes. The book is ready. We are currently in the editing process.
alex (37:33.291)
So it's a guide for leaders how to create their performance culture using intentional strategy processes. The book is ready. We are currently in the editing process. But as I said, this takes some time. In the meantime, check out my website. There are some sneak peeks out there. And I also publish quite some articles that are based on elements in the book. Obviously, they are.
angela_r__howard (37:45.792)
So, but as I said, this takes some time. Yes. In the meantime, check out my website. There are some sneak peeks out there. And I also publish quite some articles that are based on elements in the book. Obviously, they are more geared toward, let's say, topics that are hot right now, whereas the book is more general about the process as such. But you get a sense of what you can expect from the book. Perfect.
alex (38:02.475)
more geared toward, let's say, topics that are hot right now, whereas the book is more general about the process as such. But you get a sense of what you can expect from the book.
angela_r__howard (38:15.632)
Make sure to put your website out there, your blog, and then maybe we could have you back when the book's published so we can talk a little bit more about the contents. But congratulations again and thank you for joining, Alex. Really appreciate you. Thank you so much for having me as a guest. It didn't feel like an interview. It felt like a wonderful conversation, actually. Perfect. Awesome.
alex (38:24.653)
little bit.
It would be my pleasure.
alex (38:31.971)
Thank you so much for having me as a guest. It didn't feel like an interview. It felt like a wonderful conversation, Angela. Thank you so much. Perfect, awesome, thanks, Alex. Yeah.
