Helping Humans Thrive with Derek Lundsten

angela_howard (00:01.762)

Hi, dear, welcome to Humanly Possible. Thanks for joining me today. Thank you, Angela. It's so wonderful to see you. Yes, same. Happy Friday. And you, happy Labor Day.

derek_lundsten_ (00:07.482)

Thank you, Angela. It's so wonderful to see you.

derek_lundsten_ (00:12.943)

And you, happy Labor Day Friday, going into a long weekend. Yeah. That's wonderful. Happy early birthday.

angela_howard (00:13.394)

Yeah, it's just... And tomorrow is my birthday. So I am... It's a... Wonderful. Happy early birthday. Thank you. Extra special weekend. Well, Derek, first of all, I'm honored to have you on the podcast. I know you probably get asked to do this a lot. And so I'm very happy that you've taken the time with us today. And so please provide a quick introduction and what makes you human.

Sure, well likewise, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today and your listeners. So I'm Derek Monclin, I'm the president and CEO of LifeGuides, we're a public benefit corporation, and we've built a technology platform that allows people to find others who can be their guides in life's journey, life's opportunities for growth, life's challenges, and really just who can understand firsthand what someone's experiencing. So it can be positive things like being a new parent and wanting to receive guidance in that, it could be a more challenging

derek_lundsten_ (00:41.159)

Well, likewise, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today and your listeners. So I'm Derek Munson. I'm the president and CEO of LifeGuides. We're a public benefit corporation and we've built a technology platform that allows people to find others who can be their guides in life's journey, life's opportunities for growth, life's challenges, and really just who can understand firsthand what someone's experiencing. So it can be positive things like becoming a new parent and wanting to receive guidance and that. It could be a more challenging.

angela_howard (01:09.784)

like the loss of a loved one due to an unexpected illness or an accident, and everything in between, right? We have all aspects of life, and the idea is that something that someone's experiencing, someone else has lived it, and can be a source of advice and counsel and empathy and support for someone in providing a path more healthily through whatever that is. And what makes me human, so I'm an explorer of life's mysteries, is one thing. I thought, that's why I do what I do.

derek_lundsten_ (01:10.391)

situation like the loss of a loved one due to an unexpected illness or an accident and everything in between, right? We have all aspects of life and the idea is that something that someone's experiencing, someone else has lived it and can be a source of advice and counsel and empathy and support for someone and providing a path more healthily through whatever that is. And what makes me human, so I'm an explorer of life's mysteries is one thing. That's why I do what I do.

angela_howard (01:39.344)

student of philosophy and psychology and consciousness. And I've been doing that my entire life pretty much. And in this present moment, I'm also a father of two, soon to be three young children and married to my wife of six years. And we relocated to Phoenix, Arizona, right at the start of the pandemic, as before the start of the pandemic from the East Coast, which is where we're both originally from. And so all of our family is still back that way. So we're really living out here on an adventure, if you will, literally,

derek_lundsten_ (01:39.919)

student of philosophy and psychology and consciousness. And I've been doing that my entire life, pretty much. And in this present moment, I'm also a father of two, soon to be three young children and married to my wife of six years. And we relocated to Phoenix, Arizona, right at the start of the pandemic, as before the start of the pandemic from the East Coast, which is where we're both originally from. And so, a lot of our family is still all back that way. So we're really living out here on an adventure.

if you will, literally, in a really unique time in human history and raising children amidst all that. So that's a little bit about me as a man, as a person, and then that innate curiosity and that exploration is something that I've brought into Lifeguides and the adventures that I've been a part of. So that's a little bit about me, Angel.

angela_howard (02:09.264)

in a really unique time in human history and raising children and all that. So that's a little bit about me as a man, as a person, and then that innate curiosity and that exploration is something that I've brought into Lifeguides, the adventures that I've been a part of. So that's a little bit about me, Angel. That's awesome. Well, I love that answer. And it's really an interesting time, I think,

industry in particular. And I think there's this merging of the employee life cycle and the human life cycle. And I think people are realizing, you know what? You can't separate it. You can't separate the work human from the human. And so I love the solution that you all have provided to recognize that. And so how does it, because when I hear about solutions like this, people sometimes say,

derek_lundsten_ (02:51.98)

Yeah.

derek_lundsten_ (02:58.317)

Yeah.

derek_lundsten_ (03:03.586)

Yeah.

angela_howard (03:10.126)

But I feel that the solution that you have is a little unique and differentiated. So tell us more about that.

derek_lundsten_ (03:16.227)

Yes.

angela_howard (03:17.598)

Yeah, very much so. So I think the thing to keep in mind too is that it's a bigger mission and vision company and how this all started, right? So I had been one of the first investors in the company because I really believe in this idea that we could help people live happier, healthier lives or reduce the outside struggle for a billion people over the next 15 years. So that's our mission. And so it's much bigger than just a corporate benefit. It really is about creating a healthier human population, right?

derek_lundsten_ (03:18.731)

Yeah, very much so. So I think the thing to keep in mind too is that it's the bigger mission and vision of the company and how this all started, right? So I had been one of the first investors in the company because I really believed in this idea that we could help people live happier, healthier lives and reduce the necessary struggle for a billion people over the next 15 years. That's our mission. So it's much bigger than just the corporate benefit. It really is about creating a healthier.

healthier human population, right? And doing that through connection and through understanding and through shared stories and experiences. And what we've built, the best way to describe it is if you think of match.com and how that changed how people looked at dating, right? 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you didn't find your loved one or a dating partner on the internet. You went to different groups, you went through friends, but that revolutionized how people found their

angela_howard (03:46.542)

through connection and through understanding and through shared stories and experiences. And what we've built, the best way to describe it is if you think of match.com and how that changed how people ended up dating, right? 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you didn't find your loved one or a dating partner on the internet. You went to different groups, you went through friends, that revolutionized how...

people found their potential partners in life, right? And it evolved beyond just that into a company like Airbnb, which was, hey, we have excess capacity. How do we turn this into something that is something that people can share in their experiences and share their life in a different way and earn from that? And so, really what LifeGuides is a further iteration of that, except it's recognizing that literally sharing our experiences, our stories with one another, and...

derek_lundsten_ (04:13.967)

their potential partners in life, right? And it evolved beyond just that into, you know, a company like Airbnb, which was, hey, we have excess capacity. How do we turn this into something that is something that people can share their experiences and share their life in a different way and earn from that? And so really what lifeguides is a further iteration of that, except it's recognizing that literally sharing our experiences and our stories with one another. And what I'll describe as

angela_howard (04:40.49)

what I'll describe is what we lived in a tribal time, right, where in tribal days you would go out and find the elders and get their perspective on something. We now live in an eight billion person interconnected tribe, right? And so what might.

derek_lundsten_ (04:42.635)

what we lived in a tribal time, right? Where in tribal days you would go out and find the elders and get their perspective on something. We now live in an 8 billion person interconnected tribe, right? And so what lifeguides is doing is facilitating that, that aspect is that you can connect with anyone in the world to quote unquote, be your guide and set and vice versa. People can become guides for others and share their own experiences and stories of what makes them uniquely human and a way to pay it forward and be of service and help.

angela_howard (04:54.658)

is facilitating that aspect, is that you can connect with anyone in the world to quote unquote be your guide, and vice versa, people can become guides for others and share their own experiences and stories of what makes them uniquely human, and a way to pay it forward and be of service and help heal usually, and whatever that path is. And that's what LifeGuide is creating as the big vision. It just so happens that we've chosen to go after businesses as the way to deliver this model,

derek_lundsten_ (05:12.483)

heal usually and whatever that path is. And that's what LifeGuide is creating as the big vision. It just so happens that we've chosen to go after businesses as the way to deliver this model because we believe that, at least historically, mental health, emotional wellbeing have been taboo challenging subjects. And so this was part of the pandemic we were building this idea was that if you can open up the conversation with the organizations and make it acceptable for people to talk about

angela_howard (05:24.586)

We believe that, at least historically, mental health, emotional wellbeing, have been taboo, challenging subjects. And so this was part of the pandemic, we were building this idea, was that if you can open up the conversation with organizations and make it acceptable for people to talk about where they are and to seek support, it can become acceptable wherever in the world and wherever in the context. And what's happened over the last 18 months with the pandemic is that the entire world has been confronted with

derek_lundsten_ (05:42.263)

where they are and to seek support, it can become acceptable wherever in the world and wherever in the context. And what's happened over the last 18 months with the pandemic is that the entire world has been confronted with the uncertainties and the unexpected of life. And everyone has been forced to reconcile with their mortality, with their values, with the lack of connectivity because we're being quarantined and separated with just

angela_howard (05:54.5)

the uncertainties and the unexpected of life. And everyone has been forced to reconcile with their mortality, with their values, with the lack of connectivity, because we're being quarantined and separated, with just massive change and disruption that was never expected, and people had to adapt in real time. And so, lifeguide has been brought to the forefront of all that, right? It's been, it's highly affected businesses more than ever are a force for change, and can take a responsibility.

derek_lundsten_ (06:10.291)

Massive change and disruption that was never expected and people had to adapt in real time And so lifeguides has been brought to the forefront of all that right? it's been it's highlighted the fact that businesses more than ever are a force for change and can and take a responsibility and influencing that change and more importantly in influencing the well-being of their people and those families and so that's where lifeguides is distinct is the just the bigness of how we're looking to change the world and do it through the context of

angela_howard (06:25.3)

in influencing that change and more importantly, in influencing the well-being of their people and those families. And so that's where LifeGuides is distinct, is just the bigness of how we're looking to change the world and do it through the context of employer-offered services and support.

derek_lundsten_ (06:40.159)

employer offered services and support.

angela_howard (06:43.074)

Yes, well, I think the meta part of the conversation, I think, really resonates with me because I know you and I have talked about this, but I think there's this awakening around the workplace, the workplace's responsibility in society. And I always like to say, you know, workplaces have a responsibility to send happier, healthier humans home so that they are, their families are happier and healthier.

derek_lundsten_ (07:03.608)

Yeah.

angela_howard (07:12.908)

communities are happy and healthier and that has an impact on society and I don't think that we've cracked that yet. I think this is a movement that's kind of emerging. It's been a long time coming.

I agree with you. I mean, I think it is in the early days, right? I think there's definitely a shift in a recognition of that, but putting it into practice and putting it, you know, it's, it's one thing to dream it, another thing to actually put it into reality and the work that is required and the decisions that are required and the conversations that happen within organizations and within those peoples. And really, again, it's reconciling structure and systems with, you know, I had a conversation earlier with,

derek_lundsten_ (07:29.031)

Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, I think it is in the early days, right? I think there's definitely a shift and a recognition of that, but putting it into practice and putting it, you know, it's one thing to dream it, another thing to actually put it into reality and the work that is required and the decisions that are required and the conversations that have to happen within organizations and within those peoples. And really, again, it's reconciling structure and systems with

I had a conversation earlier with radical flexibility. And the world of business has been conditioned for building things a certain way. And now you need to be able to respond and create a whole spread of possibilities and how you solve it. So it just, yeah, it's very dynamic. And the next decade, I think, Angela is gonna be a powerful time.

angela_howard (08:00.089)

and the world of business has been conditioned for building things a certain way and now you need to be able to respond and create a whole...

you know, spread of possibilities and how you solve it. So it just, yeah, it's very dynamic. In the next decade, I think, Angela is gonna be a powerful time. In terms of that clear quote, that awakening of business, right? The awakening or the awakening of the consciousness within business and how leaders and companies do reinvest in the wellness or the flourishing of their people, right? Is really what I think it is. Yes, and I think, you know, we've talked,

derek_lundsten_ (08:23.439)

in terms of that awakening of business, right? The awakening of the consciousness within business and how leaders and companies do reinvest in the wellness or the flourishing of their people, right? Is really what I think it is.

angela_howard (08:42.836)

about investment for a while around well-being and I think you know the traditional definition of wellness or well-being is like a wellness program right or like a you know a screening program that it all connects back to the profit right like as a company what am I gonna get out of you know treating my employees better and giving them resources and helping them now I think

derek_lundsten_ (08:56.856)

Yeah.

angela_howard (09:12.696)

You also have this new generation, Gen Z's, which I call myself an elder millennial, so I'm old news now. We're old news, we're out. Gen Z, this generation just blows me away. I think we were enlightened, but they're enlightened and they're asking for things, they're asking for accountability, which is something that I think we were tiptoeing around.

derek_lundsten_ (09:14.073)

Yes.

derek_lundsten_ (09:21.923)

You and me both. Yeah.

angela_howard (09:43.156)

We were like, you should do that, but they're like, you must do that because if you don't, I'm not working for you. I don't want any part of you. And so there's a heightened sense of accountability. I think that's going to catapult this forward. I agree with that. And I think a key part of what you're describing in a huge element of this conversation is the personal responsibility that...

derek_lundsten_ (09:52.622)

Yeah.

derek_lundsten_ (09:58.275)

I agree with that. I agree with that. And I think the key part of what you're describing in a huge element of this conversation is the personal responsibility that employees have as well, right? That they also need to take responsibility to improve. It's a two-way conversation, right? And that's the, like they are expecting it. And then in turn, they need to bring a higher level of accountability and standard to their own wellbeing and wellness and their teammates and their colleagues, right?

angela_howard (10:08.534)

have as well right today they also need to take responsibility to improve it's a two-way conversation right and that's like they are expecting it and then term they need to bring a higher level of

standard to their own well-being and wellness and their teammates and their colleagues, right? So I think it's now, it doesn't form, like yes, it's a two-way conversation. And I think that that's an important piece too, that as people start to grow, like yes, we need to expect better from our companies, from our employers, right? And they need to create it, right? Be the change, if you will, as we talk about it. So how do you do that, right?

derek_lundsten_ (10:28.483)

I think it's not, it does inform, yes, it's a two-way conversation. And I think that that's an important piece too, that as people start to grow, yes, we need to expect better from our companies, from our employers. And they need to create it, be the change if you will, as we talk about. And so how do you do that? They need to put themselves in positions to actually do that. And that also requires a degree of persistence and...

angela_howard (10:50.524)

to actually do that and that also requires a degree of persistence and discomfort and other elements to go along with it too. And so I think it's an important, I think we're going to see a really fascinating growth in this conversation of the next decade for the exact reasons you've mentioned. Yeah and it's, you bring up a great point. I think it's going to be a push and pull. I think the companies that are going to be ahead of the game are going to not wait for the advocacy.

derek_lundsten_ (10:55.939)

discomfort and other elements to go along with it too. And so I think it's an important, I think we're gonna see a really fascinating growth, you know, in this conversation over the next decade for the exact reasons you've mentioned.

angela_howard (11:20.304)

advocates for their people and then the people who are behind are only going to do it because people are advocating for themselves. So it's gonna be an interesting transformation and there's gonna be some companies who just don't get behind it. I think those are the companies that are going to fail to be blunt. So it's just so what do you think that where do you think the mental block is happening? I guess let's take that group of companies which I think is larger than most people think you know I think a lot of people think everyone's moving towards

derek_lundsten_ (11:20.587)

Right. Yes.

derek_lundsten_ (11:28.707)

Yes.

derek_lundsten_ (11:37.464)

Yeah.

Yeah.

angela_howard (11:50.384)

this but I believe there's a chunk of people who are saying it and not doing anything or just not saying it and not doing it. So where's the mental block? Well I think there's a couple parts to that and it goes back to leadership is one part of it. I think that you know we as a

derek_lundsten_ (11:57.518)

Yeah.

derek_lundsten_ (12:00.975)

Well, I think there's a couple of parts to that. So, and it goes back to leadership is one part of it. I think that we as a capitalist kind of model for the last, let's call it 50 years, because it's longer than that. But let's just say in the last 50 years in particular, and in the last 30 years even more so, the movement towards truly maximizing shareholder value has been the guiding principle of business, right? And quarterly, excuse me, quarterly earnings.

angela_howard (12:08.11)

capitalist kind of model for the last, it's called 50 years, because it's longer than that, but let's just say in the last 50 years in particular, and in the last 30 years even more so, the movement towards truly maximizing shareholder value has been the guiding principle of business, right? And quarterly earnings to return shareholder value have been a key metric for that. And short-term...

derek_lundsten_ (12:30.667)

to return shareholder value have been a key metric for that. And short-term behaviors have been rewarded in that regard. And decisions that maximize that have been rewarded. So, you know, when it comes down to maximizing profit, cutting your people has been a thing that has been used as a lever. And, you know, those are the kind of behaviors that I think are not...

angela_howard (12:35.59)

behaviors have been rewarded in that regard. And to say that maximizing that have been rewarded. So when it comes down to maximizing profit, cutting your people has been a thing that has been used as a lever. And those are the kind of behaviors that I think

in the condition of a long-term model that supports overall, again, flourishing for everyone. And I think that, you know, this is a great opportunity to be able to do that.

derek_lundsten_ (12:59.583)

in the condition of a long-term model that supports overall, again, flourishing for everyone. And I think that, you know, this is the conversation I had earlier again about people are not just little chess pieces and that you can just move around on the board, right? They're actually real humans with real questions and purpose and meaning and families and considerations for their own future and their children's futures, not to be considered. And, you know, that's a really big thing. And so I think...

angela_howard (13:08.162)

People are not just little chess pieces that you can just move around on the board, right? They're actually real humans with real questions and purpose and meaning and families and considerations for their own future and their children's futures. That's to be considered. And that's a really big thing. And so I think the mental block is recognized, if you want to call it that, is this.

derek_lundsten_ (13:29.659)

The mental block is recognized, if you want to call it that, is this what I'll call being held captive to shareholder only ways of thinking, right? That the bottom line and growth at all costs is the only metric of success in business. And that's been rewarded. And the incentive structure around that has been set up and reinforces that pattern. It has been doing so for that period of time. And you...

angela_howard (13:33.622)

but what i'll call being capped out captive to uh... shareholder only way to thinking right about that the bottom line and growth or cost the only metric of success in business and that's been rewarded and the incentive structure around that has been has been set up and we have part of that pattern has been doing so for that period

you we collectively leaders and organizations need to align our incentives and align our behavior around a longer term model for growth and change the change in the change in the success. I mean, I said this to another colleague the other day that if you're not looking after the well-being of your people at the expense of your company's growth or profit, then you're still not a successful company. And it's matter of fact, this week, you know, the SEC has made it a point that people now need to start disclosing their

derek_lundsten_ (13:57.303)

We collectively as leaders and organizations need to align our incentives and align our behavior around a longer term model for growth and change the message of success. Right, I mean, I said this to another colleague the other day that if you're not looking after the well being of your people at the expense of your company's growth or profit, then you're still not a successful company. And it's a matter of fact that just this week, the FCC has made it a point that people now need to start disclosing their.

angela_howard (14:25.712)

They're human capital, they're people in analytics. So if you are now in an executive team and you have.

derek_lundsten_ (14:26.607)

They're human capital, they're people analytics. So if you are now executive team and you have massive, pay inequity or issues around your culture or different claims, like you have to disclose that, right? And so the level of standard of accountability is increasing. And I believe in doing that, people will also align incentives differently. And I think that that's the smallest step forward that we can take in shifting. It is shifting the behaviors.

angela_howard (14:31.466)

massive, you know, pay inequity or issues around your culture or different claims, like you have to disclose that, right? And so the level of standard accountability is increasing. And I believe that in doing that, people will also align incentives differently. And I think that that's the smallest step forward that we can take in shifting it, is shifting the behaviors that align with what we actually want to have happen. So if you want to have a healthier, happier, wealthier population, then put into practice methods that allow that to happen.

derek_lundsten_ (14:53.559)

that align with what we actually want to have happen. So if you want to have a healthier, happier, wealthier population, then put into practice methods that allow that to happen. And again, that goes also back, like I said, to employee choice, like they have a responsibility as well to be healthy and to take care of themselves and to use the services and benefits that are being provided and to not just hold people accountable without a reason. So I think it's a really important conversation that's starting.

angela_howard (15:01.7)

And again, that goes also back, like I said, to employee choice. Like, they have a responsibility as well to be healthy and to take care of themselves and to, you know, to use the services and benefits that are being provided and to not just hold people accountable without, you know, without a reason. So I think it's a really important conversation that's starting. And it really is when I say it's early. Like, this is going to be a really compelling place to be the next decade. Yeah. And, you know, I think even shareholders, you know, they're going to be able to do

derek_lundsten_ (15:21.716)

And it really is when I say it's early, like this is gonna be a really compelling place to be in the next decade.

angela_howard (15:31.42)

boards are having these conversations where they're kind of looking around and thinking, gosh, you know, we don't have the diversity of thought or the diversity period to be able to make the right decisions about this transformation that's happening. So I'm just, first of all, I'm thrilled. I'm very optimistic that this is happening. It's been a long time. I mean, you and I have been working in this space for a while. So I think we, like we've been, we've been preaching this for a long time. And so now it truly feels like

derek_lundsten_ (15:34.243)

Yeah, yes.

derek_lundsten_ (15:56.685)

Yeah.

angela_howard (16:01.2)

like the rest of the world is catching up. And business leaders are seeing themselves as people leaders too, which just makes me really excited. And we still have a lot of work to do. Yes.

derek_lundsten_ (16:10.19)

Yes.

derek_lundsten_ (16:15.843)

Yes, yeah, and vice versa. Business people are seen as people leaders and people leaders see themselves as business leaders, right? And that's an important distinction. And that whole piece is an important part of how this evolves, so.

angela_howard (16:17.995)

Yeah, and vice versa. Business people are seen as people leaders and people are seen as business leaders. Yes. Right? And that's an important distinction. And that whole piece is an important part of how this evolves. Yes, absolutely. And, you know, it's just, it's, I think we're at a pivot point where I think the transformation is that like the gap is widening right now on people to really get on board and to shift paradigms.

piece is shifting the paradigm on the workplace and the traditions and the things that haven't been serving us and you know really thinking about like office culture right is that a thing anymore I don't think so I think we're moving towards you know more of a hybrid workplace where choice and designing your own work place right in a way is gonna be the future and that's gonna

derek_lundsten_ (16:53.187)

Yeah.

derek_lundsten_ (17:00.024)

Yeah.

derek_lundsten_ (17:05.709)

Yeah.

angela_howard (17:15.728)

For example, I'm working from home now, but my blood pressure has gone down significantly since I've been working from home because I'm able to take a moment out of my day, meditate, go for a walk. Little things like that are just, if we can scale those types of things, it's going to make a huge impact on the world.

derek_lundsten_ (17:17.967)

Yeah.

angela_howard (17:37.642)

Yeah, the opportunity to be healthier in all aspects of yourself. Right? Exactly. Yeah. I agree. Time, freedom and employee freedom and choice is a big opportunity and the companies that are able to create a healthy trade, if you will, of the employees needs and priorities and values with the companies needs and values and priorities and where they intersect and where there's a common choice.

derek_lundsten_ (17:38.551)

Yeah, the opportunity to be healthier in all aspects of yourself, right? Yeah, I agree. Time, freedom and employee freedom and choice is a big opportunity and the companies that are able to create a healthy trade, if you will, of the employee's needs and priorities and values with the company's needs and values and priorities and where they intersect and where there's a common choice to...

angela_howard (18:03.907)

to build together in that way. That's where I believe real value will be created. Because it goes back to, there's a mutual investment. Yes.

derek_lundsten_ (18:05.111)

build together in that way. That's real where I believe real value will be created because it goes back to there's a mutual investment in the bettering of the stakeholder, the mutual stakeholder, not just shareholder but that stakeholder. And that's, you know, there's the whole idea that there's so many different stakeholders. Shareholders are a stakeholder, but it's everyone. It's the people, it's the suppliers, it's the employees, it's the families. It's even the employees of your competitors and the families of your competitors.

angela_howard (18:13.686)

the bettering of the stakeholder, the mutual stakeholder, not just shareholders, but that stakeholder. And that's, you know, there's the whole idea that there's so many different stakeholders. Shareholders are a stakeholder, but it's everyone. It's the people, it's the suppliers, it's the employees, it's the families, it's even the employees of your competitors, and the fans of your competitors, right? And like, that's all part of it too, right? So creating an environment where everyone can have an opportunity to win, that exists. We have the opportunity to create that.

derek_lundsten_ (18:34.579)

I mean, like, that's all part of it too, right? So creating an environment where everyone can have an opportunity to win, that exists, we have the opportunity to create that. And we're being confronted with massive, massive challenges outside, right? I mean, look at what's happening in the world and the environment and all these different things, like, that requires working together to solve these, you know, easy challenges, but there are also massive opportunities if looked at that properly, right? And I think that's...

angela_howard (18:43.72)

with massive, massive challenges outside, right? Look at what's happening in the world, in the environment, and all these different things. Like, that requires working together to solve, these are not easy challenges, but they're also massive opportunities if looked at that properly, right? I think that's...

Yeah, that's not to get too preachy about it, but I think that's a really big moment right now for us. Yeah, and you've mentioned leadership a few times. So I agree. I think it is on the leader's shoulders. And working in HR, I can't tell you how many times I've been looked at and said, what are you going to do about that culture thing? And then I look back at them and say, what are you going to do about that culture thing? Because it's your culture. It's your organizational culture. So what needs to change, do you feel like? If you think about leadership,

derek_lundsten_ (19:00.503)

Yeah, that's not to get too preachy about it, but I think that's a really big moment right now for us.

derek_lundsten_ (19:21.593)

Yeah.

Good for you.

angela_howard (19:29.328)

definition of leadership, the traditional construct of leadership. What needs to change with this transformation when it comes to leadership? Well, I think that's a good question.

derek_lundsten_ (19:41.688)

Well...

I'll answer it in a somewhat maybe controversial way. That.

angela_howard (19:45.766)

any controversial way uh... you know that leadership at all about that thing i think that people to collaborate to achieve a goal right that part of that part of what a leader dot whatever that mission or purpose it also comes down to looking at work at the leader and what example that i want to set or

derek_lundsten_ (19:53.411)

that leadership is all about advancing ideas and getting people to collaborate to achieve a goal, right? That's part of what a leader does, whatever that mission or purpose is. But it also comes down to looking inward as a leader and saying, what's the example that I wanna set for all the people that are affected? It's not just the employees. Again, it's that broader picture at who...

angela_howard (20:15.498)

you know all the people that are affected by just the point again at broader that picture who are your decisions having an influence on and i think that leaders need to be doing that uh... self-audit more frequently like really like it's not they need to be thinking about that decision that they're bonding the spectrum of who they're considering when they and

derek_lundsten_ (20:22.211)

Who is your decision having an influence on? And I think that leaders need to be doing that kind of self audit more frequently. Really, they need to be thinking about that decision, that it's broadening the spectrum of who they're considering when they're making decisions. And it's not just, yes, financial performance is important. And yes, business metrics that we've identified are an indicator, those are important. But...

angela_howard (20:41.846)

it's not just yes, financial performance is important, and yes, business metrics that we've identified are an indicator, right, those are important. But it goes back to, I think that leaders are being called to hold themselves to a standard of caring for, what productive are term, the people in their field, right? And so that...

derek_lundsten_ (20:51.243)

It goes back to, I think that leaders are being called to hold themselves to a standard of caring for, for lack of a better term, the people in their field, right? And so that is a shift, right? That's a shift in, I believe, stylistically and philosophically from how the leaders over the last 20 years have been cultivated or promoted. And I think that...

angela_howard (21:06.926)

is a shift, right? That's a shift. And I believe stylistically and philosophically from how the leaders over the last 20 years have been cultivated, promoted. And I think that, um, that's it's not gonna be a quick change either, right? It's gonna happen in waves. It's gonna happen a little bit of time. Um, but I think that that's important. And I think that that's the big change that we are seeing. Um, and I believe that, um,

derek_lundsten_ (21:20.055)

that's it's not going to be a quick change either, right? It's going to happen in waves. It's going to happen a little bit at a time. But I think that that's important. And I think that that's the big change that we are seeing. And I believe that, yeah, it's really hard because I mean, I can speak for myself, like at times you as a leader, it feels hypocritical, right? You got to make, you have to make hard decisions and you need to make it based on values but you're also balancing the need to do it.

angela_howard (21:36.778)

Yeah, it's really hard because I mean, I can speak for myself. Like, at times, you, as a leader, you don't have to be critical. You have to make hard decisions, and you need to make a base on values, but you're also balancing the needs of different people. And it's hard. You're not going to please everybody, and you have to be willing to sit in that discomfort, and you have to be willing to do that and ultimately figure out what the right solutions are for your life. Right? I think it's the same point. We need to do more work on cultivating the, I don't know, moral...

derek_lundsten_ (21:49.427)

And it's hard, you're not going to please everybody. And you have to be willing to sit in that discomfort. And you have to be willing to do that and ultimately figure out what the right solutions are for your life. I think it's, if the simple answer is we need to do more work on cultivating the moral aspects of leadership beyond just business leadership or beyond just individual ambition.

angela_howard (22:06.734)

moral aspects of leadership beyond just business leadership, right? Or beyond just individual ambition. Yeah. I mean, leadership is legacy. That's how I see it, right? It is, you know, everyone wants a legacy, but when you're a leader, you're thinking about your legacy and the legacy of the people who you impact. And so...

derek_lundsten_ (22:16.983)

Yeah.

angela_howard (22:28.058)

I'm maybe equally as controversial as I'm a big advocate of, we need less leaders actually, because I think a lot of people have climbed the ranks because of being a great individual contributor. They're awesome at what they do, but they're not a leader. And so I think as we redefine leadership, I think we're gonna see less leaders. So I think as we create more career paths, like organizations need to create more career paths

derek_lundsten_ (22:36.472)

Mmm.

derek_lundsten_ (22:46.371)

Right.

derek_lundsten_ (22:51.238)

Mmm.

angela_howard (22:58.013)

We haven't done a good job of that. Once we do that, I think we're going to see less leaders, and less and more quality, empathetic, people-centric leadership. Yeah. It's a really interesting perspective, yeah.

derek_lundsten_ (22:59.79)

Uh huh.

derek_lundsten_ (23:07.767)

Yeah, it's a really interesting perspective. Yeah, and I think it's true. It goes back to self leadership, right? And what you're talking about. So yeah, that's a really good concept. Yeah.

angela_howard (23:12.45)

it about itself leadership right and talking about so

Yeah, that's a really good concept. And leadership is a mentality too, right? So you may have people under you, but you don't have to be a team leader to be a leader. You could be an individual contributor who is influencing. And so I think we're at a pivot point there. And I think this all connects back to this idea of individuals and well-being. Well, I think none of you mentioned series is important about legacy, right? Like what is really legacy? And you think about that.

derek_lundsten_ (23:22.487)

Yeah.

derek_lundsten_ (23:28.527)

Sure.

derek_lundsten_ (23:37.217)

What?

Well, I think you mentioned serious is important about legacy, right? Like what is really legacy, right? And you think about that, like in the scheme of it, like very few people are recognized for their individual, like for being individual. That's not the point of legacy. The point of legacy is the wake that you're leaving behind in for the collective, for many people, right? Like I think that's the misperception of what legacy is, right? Like, oh, I want to create my legacy. Like,

angela_howard (23:46.644)

that very few people are recognized for their individual, like for being an individual. That's not the point of legacy. The point of legacy is the wake that you're leaving behind in for the collective, for many people. I think that's the misperception of what legacy is. Oh, I want to create my legacy. Okay, then go help a bunch of people. Make the world a better place. That's a legacy. You're not gonna say, oh, Angela or Derek, great job.

derek_lundsten_ (24:08.899)

Okay, then to go help a bunch of people, right? Make the world a better place. That's a legacy, right? You're not gonna say, oh, Angela or Derek, great job. Like that was, no, like the whole point is your work speaks for itself. Like the work that you, what you've left behind is the legacy, right? So if you make a better, like create companies that are more inclusive, create a place that people have more opportunity, create places where people are not impoverished, create, like that is legacy, right? Like don't worry about where you stand in the legacy.

angela_howard (24:16.144)

The whole point is your work speaks for itself. The work that you, what you left behind is the legacy. So if you make a better, create companies that are more inclusive. Create a place that people have more opportunity. Create places where people are not in poverty. Create, that is legacy. Don't worry about where you stand in legacy. Your name is irrelevant. Our individual names are irrelevant. That's the missed issue in legacy. Like, it's nonsense.

derek_lundsten_ (24:38.959)

Your name is irrelevant. Our individual names are irrelevant. Right, that's the missed issue with legacy. Like it's nonsense, right? It's in my opinion, it's really about like, is the world better after you're gone? Because if it is great, then you've done a good job. Then you've created a legacy worth actually notating and someone might talk about it. But if you're concerned about what you're doing, you missed a point. You know what I mean? Like.

angela_howard (24:45.73)

right, in my opinion. It's really about.

Is the world better after you're gone? Yes. Because if it is, great. Then you've done a good job. Then you've created a legacy worth actually notating. And someone might talk about it. But if you're concerned about what you're doing, you've missed the point. You know what I mean? Exactly. Yeah, and I think there are some people out there who will never get that. I think they'll continue to think, my legacy is how many hours I worked and how long my butt was in the seat at the office and the 20-year, I don't know, tenure award that I got at a job.

I worked my butt off versus my legacy was impacting a societal cause or impacting the world of work or the culture or I shifted the tides around leadership. And so yeah, I, that could be a whole nother podcast episode, I feel like. We could dig into that one. For sure. I mean, it's a...

derek_lundsten_ (25:26.959)

Yeah.

derek_lundsten_ (25:38.654)

Yeah, yeah, I got.

For sure. I mean, it's really, yeah, thank you for raising that question.

angela_howard (25:46.151)

Really, yeah, thank you for raising that question. Yeah. Well, I know we talked a lot about a lot today. And I think we started, I mean, all of it's connected. I think we started with this idea of the importance of the human at work. And I think leadership has a huge hand in creating that environment. And when we think about your solution, life guides, I think that's something that's

should be driven by the leader, right? Like to facilitate a tool or a concept or a wellbeing like that. So I'm just very excited about what you're working on and we'll make sure in the show notes to include links to LifeGuides so people can check it out and check you out if they wanna learn more. So is there anything else that you wanna mention before we close out today? I just wanna reiterate my appreciation for you having me on the conversation and sharing about LifeGuides and the work that you're doing

derek_lundsten_ (26:20.943)

Yeah.

derek_lundsten_ (26:37.471)

I just want to reiterate my appreciation for you having me on the conversation and sharing about lifeguides and the work that you're doing in raising people's awareness that we are all human and we all do have other all aspects to our identities and who we are and where we're showing up. So thank you for shining that light, Angel.

angela_howard (26:43.024)

raising people's awareness on that we are all human and we all do have. Other.

angela_howard (26:51.206)

Thank you for shining that light, Angel. Yeah, so thank you, Derek, for your time. And we'll talk soon, I'm sure. We're far to it.

derek_lundsten_ (26:59.479)

Look forward to it.