The Legal Side of Employee Experience with Andrea Threet
angela_howard (00:01.182)
Hey, Andrea, welcome to Humanly Possible. It's so great to finally have you on the show. How's it going? Thank you so much, Angela. I'm so excited to be here. I think this will be a very fun conversation. Yes, yes. Well, I know that this has been a long time coming. We've been, like you mentioned before, kind of prepping for this for a while. And I'm just really excited to chat with you. And so I know who you are.
andrea_threet (00:06.851)
Thank you so much, Angela. I'm so excited to be here. I think this will be a very fun conversation.
andrea_threet (00:24.2)
Yes.
angela_howard (00:31.116)
Instagram fan and follower. But tell the audience who you are. So what do you do professionally? How do you spend your time professionally? But then also, what makes you human? OK, two-part question. So the first part's easy. I'm a lawyer.
andrea_threet (00:34.259)
and vice versa. Big fan.
andrea_threet (00:49.635)
OK, two-part question. So the first part's easy. I'm a lawyer. I work in Washington, DC. And my practice area is in employment law, which in its most general sense just means that I deal with conflicts between employers and employees. But my personal practice area is focused on kind of where, at the intersection of where workplace culture and legal risk meet.
angela_howard (00:55.582)
in Washington, D.C. and my practice area is an employment law, which in its most general sense just means that I deal with conflicts between employers and employees. But my personal practice area is focused on kind of where, at the intersection of where workplace culture and legal risk meet. And that takes shape in a couple of different forms, like on the
andrea_threet (01:19.883)
And that takes shape in a couple of different forms. Like on the one hand, I do a lot of workplace culture assessments where we go into organizations and talk to people, get a sense for how people feel at work.
angela_howard (01:24.886)
hand I do a lot of workplace culture assessments where we go into organizations and talk to people, get a sense for how people feel at work, how safe, included, respected.
andrea_threet (01:36.003)
safe, included, respected, those types of feelings, how those are being received at work. We look at data and we kind of put it all together to synthesize some findings and recommendations, but all with an eye towards, you know, is there any simmering legal risk here or existing legal risk here? And so we'll take steps or recommend steps for the organization to take to really address those.
angela_howard (01:39.346)
those types of feelings, how those are being received at work. We look at data and we kind of put it all together to synthesize some findings and recommendations, but all with an eye towards, you know, is there any simmering legal risk here or existing legal risk here? And so we'll take steps or recommend steps for the organization to take to really address those cultural problems,
andrea_threet (02:04.143)
cultural problems, which in turn will mitigate the legal risk. So that's more of the proactive work that I do. But on the other hand, I do some reactive work, which is responding to a specific allegation of wrongdoing at work that amounts into a crisis. So in that scenario, we go in and do an investigation and figure out what happened here.
angela_howard (02:09.28)
the proactive work that I do, but on the other hand, I do some reactive work, which is like responding to a specific allegation of wrongdoing at work that kind of amounts into a crisis. So in that scenario, we go in and do an investigation and figure out what happened here and kind of tie up and repair the damage from that specific scenario.
andrea_threet (02:30.963)
and kind of tie up and repair the damage from that specific scenario. But beyond that, you look kind of at the broader organization and what led us to, or what led them to that point where they got to the crisis point. And so it's kind of a different type of cultural assessment, if you will, where we're looking at the policies and practices and the culture to see what.
angela_howard (02:37.206)
Beyond that, you look kind of at the broader organization and what led us to, or what led them to that point where they got to the crisis point. And so it's kind of a different type of cultural assessment, if you will, where we're looking at the policies and practices and the culture to see where the soft spots are so we can shore up any gaps to prevent something like that from happening again.
andrea_threet (02:59.135)
the soft spots are so we can shore up any gaps to prevent something like that from happening again. So a long way of saying that, you know, my work is just understanding workplaces, how people interact at work. I see a lot of different types of leaders. I see what types of leadership is resonating among today's workforce. I see the trends in kind of shifting attitudes among.
angela_howard (03:05.858)
So a long way of saying that my work is just understanding workplaces, how people interact at work. I see a lot of different types of leaders. I see what types of leadership is resonating among today's workforce. I see the trends in kind of shifting attitudes among.
andrea_threet (03:28.271)
workforces and how that's evolving. So it's just a very interesting perspective and place to be as a lawyer in the middle of a pandemic.
angela_howard (03:28.482)
forces and how that's evolving. So it's just a very interesting perspective and place to be as a lawyer in the middle of all.
Yes, and I love the fact that you, when I think about employment law, I think in the past we've thought about just the reactive, right? And so the fact that you have taken a much more holistic approach and you're also looking at the lens of workplace culture as a whole is really, I think is really cool and is I think what brought us together in this space because we're working on a lot of similar things. And so tell us what makes you human. What's the other side of the coin?
andrea_threet (03:47.48)
Right.
andrea_threet (04:05.363)
Exactly. Oh, that's right. I thought I could get away with that. You know, I think it's an interesting question, and I struggle with it. Because I would like to show like Humanity at Work, which is, of course, like the banner on the outside of this podcast. But as I'm thinking about Humanity at Work, I think the qualities that inherently make us human.
angela_howard (04:08.277)
I thought I could get away with that.
angela_howard (04:15.869)
It's an interesting question and I struggle.
with it, because I would like to show humanity at work, which is, of course, the banner outside of this podcast. But as I'm thinking about humanity at work, I think the qualities that inherently make us human, I think we're taught to hide them at work. And so I'm struggling to articulate what does make me human. But if I'm pulled to answer, I would say just
andrea_threet (04:35.211)
I think we're taught to hide them at work. And so I'm struggling to articulate what does make me human. But if I'm pulled to answer, I would say just my inclination to want to build a community, my wanting to have meaningful connections with people, and seeing the value in having those connections, and having people.
angela_howard (04:49.349)
inclination to want to build a community. My wanting to have meaningful connections with people and seeing the value in having those connections and having people...
you know, show up, me show up and them show up and we're being generous with our time and our energy with each other and kind of what, how much power there is in that type of really authentic driven collaboration.
andrea_threet (05:04.631)
you know, show up, me show up and them show up and we're being generous with our time and our energy with each other and kind of how much power there is in that type of really authentic driven collaboration. So I'm a connections person, I like relationships. Like I like building relationships and seeing how, you know, we can work together to achieve our shared objectives.
angela_howard (05:20.126)
So I'm a connections person. I like relationships. Like I like building relationships and seeing how we can work together to achieve our shared objectives. I love that. That is one of my favorite answers yet. You, I think. Thank you so much. The connection around community to me, I mean, that's just my personal mission as well. And so, which is why I think we're just kindred spirits.
andrea_threet (05:38.787)
Thank you so much.
andrea_threet (05:46.995)
I see that in you. Yes, I see that in you completely.
angela_howard (05:50.undefined)
I see that in you completely. And so, I mean, it's just, it's so nice to have your perspective on this podcast. And you mentioned this idea of leadership, which I think is a really interesting angle because you've seen it all, right? You've probably seen the toxic leader and the really progressive leader.
both ends of the spectrum. So are you comfortable sharing any themes around, I guess, what you're seeing around the shift in leadership since you've been in this space? And then you mentioned the idea around generations and the upcoming emerging generation in the workforce. And so what are some things that you're noticing? What are your observations? Yes. Well, I'll say that.
andrea_threet (06:33.995)
Yes. Well, I'll say that more of the shift that I've been seeing has been in the workforce, so the broader employees, as opposed to the leadership. I think leadership, there's more resistance, at least initially, to change because people are relying upon the qualities and actions that they've done to get to the very successful place that they are. So it is harder to kind of break.
angela_howard (06:37.782)
the shift that I've been seeing has been in the workforce, so like the broader employees as opposed to the leadership. I think leadership, there's more resistance, you know, at least initially to change because people are relying upon the qualities and actions that they've done to get to the very successful place that they are. So it is harder to kind of break that.
but where I'd see a ton of shift is in the workforce. And I think just the overall attitudes around what it means to be at work, what people want work to.
andrea_threet (07:06.055)
where I'd see a ton of shift is in the workforce. And I think just the overall attitudes around what it means to be at work, what people want work to stand for, how they wanna be treated at work, all of that has shifted. And I think just kind of boiling it down, it's like people want work to align with their values.
angela_howard (07:21.714)
stand for, how they want to be treated at work, all of that has shifted. And I think it just kind of boiling it down. It's like people want work to align with their values. And then to the extent that they don't, that there's misalignment there, employees are feeling, you know, compelled and, you know, without hesitation, expressing that in a way that's
andrea_threet (07:34.891)
And then to the extent that they don't, that there's misalignment there, employees are feeling compelled and without hesitation expressing that in a way that's very public. And in the first instance, as opposed to maybe raising a concern internally to the company, the first instance is we want you to know that we disagree with your
angela_howard (07:51.454)
in the first instance, as opposed to, you know, maybe raising a concern internally to the company, that the first instance is we want you to know that we disagree with your values assessment and we're going to hold you accountable in a very public way. So I mean, of course, there's like tons of examples of that we've seen since the Me Too movement and then the
andrea_threet (08:03.247)
values assessment, and we're going to hold you accountable in a very public way. So I mean, and of course, there's like tons of examples of that we've seen since the Me Too movement and then the racial justice movements this past summer. But it doesn't even have to be necessarily a movement. I've seen at least people coming out and saying,
angela_howard (08:15.182)
uh, racial justice movements this past summer. I mean, but it doesn't even have to be necessarily, um, a movement. We've, I've seen at least, um, people coming out and saying, this is just a toxic workplace, like that there, and that's it. And I'm going to go to the news and
andrea_threet (08:30.027)
this is just a toxic workplace, and that's it. And I'm going to go to the news and expose all the toxicity in this place. And that can be it. So the trend is going externally with issues like this, as opposed to retaining them internally. And I think that has put employers in a new stance.
angela_howard (08:44.382)
It's a, the trend is, you know, going externally with issues like this, as opposed to retaining them internally. And I think that has put employee, employers in a new stance where they are, they are now listening in a way they haven't before.
andrea_threet (08:59.363)
where they are now listening in a way they haven't before. But it's all still very new. So to the extent I see kind of trends in leadership, it's that they're curious. They want to know what and better understand what the broader workforce is expecting out of their employer.
angela_howard (09:03.702)
But it's all still very new. So to the extent I see kind of trends in leadership, it's that they're curious. They want to know what and better understand what the broader workforce is expecting out of their employer. But they don't know what that is. Like there are two complete different pages about what the appropriate way. I mean, let's take.
andrea_threet (09:24.067)
But they don't know what that is. Like, there are two complete different pages about what the appropriate way. I mean, let's take maybe like Black Lives Matter, everything that happened last summer with George Floyd's murder. There are two very distinct kind of schools of thought in terms of how to respond to that, one of which being, and this is like the higher level of leadership being, why do I need to say Black Lives Matter?
angela_howard (09:32.638)
maybe like Black Lives Matter.
that happened last summer with George Floyd's murder. There are two very distinct kind of schools of thought in terms of how to respond to that. One of which being, and this is like the higher level of leadership being, why do I need to say Black Lives Matter? Of course they matter. They've always mattered. I don't need my employer to tell me that Black Lives Matter. So like why are you expecting this from us? That's one side and
andrea_threet (09:53.999)
course they matter. They've always mattered. I don't need my employer to tell me that Black Lives Matter. So like, why are you expecting this from us? That's one side. And then the other side, the being the broader workforce is thinking, this is the easiest issue. There's no gray area here. Can you just say Black Lives Matter? It takes a minute. It's incredible to me that you're not doing this. Like, you know, so it's just a complete disconnect.
angela_howard (10:06.844)
the broader workforce is thinking this is the easiest issue, there's no gray area here, can you just say Black Lives Matter? It takes a minute. It's incredible to me that you're not doing this. So it's just a complete disconnect, but not necessarily that they don't both believe Black Lives Matter. They just aren't.
andrea_threet (10:24.699)
But not necessarily that they don't both believe black lives matter, they just aren't having the same idea about what the role of the employer is. And so like, it's, you know, having to bridge those gaps. But there's definitely a generational, if I had to categorize it that way, divide and how
angela_howard (10:32.59)
having the same idea about what the role of the employer is. And so like, it's, you know, having to bridge those gaps, but there's definitely a generational, if I had to categorize it that way.
divide and how people perceive those issues and the types of responses they want in situations like that. Yes, I mean, you and I were talking earlier about the Deloitte survey. So Deloitte does an annual generational state of the union type of survey just to say, okay, where are we at? And you know, there's also school of thought around generations, right? And are there really
andrea_threet (10:51.036)
perceive those issues and the types of responses they want in situations like that.
andrea_threet (11:04.303)
Great.
andrea_threet (11:17.647)
Mm-hmm. Right.
angela_howard (11:18.96)
and you know I tend to think that we cycle in these generations and it all has to do with really large movements and progressive thinking right so we are at a pivot point when it comes to social humanitarian issues that you know since the Civil War hey we haven't had I mean there's been focus right we've
andrea_threet (11:46.403)
You're good.
angela_howard (11:49.06)
We've talked about DE&I, we've changed the acronyms on those a million times, but I think we're finally at this point where the social contract has changed in the workplace specifically. And whether it's changed in other institutions, I think there's some differences on, I think there's more to do, certainly with government and things like that. But the workplace at least, you do have this generation that's saying, I call bullshit.
andrea_threet (11:53.822)
Mm-hmm.
andrea_threet (12:02.191)
Great.
andrea_threet (12:12.319)
Oh yeah.
andrea_threet (12:19.627)
Right.
angela_howard (12:19.8)
I'm holding you accountable employer like if you want me if you want my talent and my skill set which I know is valuable by the way I want to work for a company that is clear on their values is putting action money investment time into these issues that I care about and there are companies doing that so and I've got a pick up I have a pick between three or four different
andrea_threet (12:25.956)
Mm-hmm. And my time. Right, exactly.
andrea_threet (12:35.667)
Mm-hmm.
andrea_threet (12:43.223)
Right.
angela_howard (12:48.72)
So tell me what you're doing for me and for the world. Exactly. No, I think that's exactly it. It's a huge shift in the paradigm. Yes. And I think it's really telling of, and you mentioned it earlier, is the leadership pipeline. We have a group of leaders who are, I would say, probably on the verge of retirement.
andrea_threet (12:52.614)
Right. Exactly. No, I think that's exactly it. It's a huge shift in the paradigm. Yeah.
andrea_threet (13:11.704)
Right.
andrea_threet (13:16.947)
Mm-hmm.
angela_howard (13:19.undefined)
incentive to really change at this point, right? It's like, they're gonna ride out the next five years and they're over this progressive thinking or this new generation that's coming into play. So you've got this group of leaders that are retiring and then you've got this huge pipeline of new leaders. And so what do you envision changing because of that?
andrea_threet (13:41.359)
Great.
angela_howard (13:49.2)
leaders who are in their 50s, 60s are retiring and now we have leaders who are entering leadership roles earlier by the way like in their 20s and 30s. How do you think the paradigm is gonna shift even further because of that? Yeah and that's exactly it. I think the paradigm will be pushed even further in the direction that we have the momentum going towards right now.
andrea_threet (13:50.165)
Mm-hmm.
andrea_threet (13:57.283)
Great.
andrea_threet (14:03.519)
Yeah, and that's exactly it. I think the paradigm will be pushed even further in the direction that we have the momentum going towards right now. But yeah, it's that middle band of management, people who are established at their careers but may not be at the higher rung of leadership, not in the C-suite type roles, but are certainly
angela_howard (14:14.454)
But yeah, it's that middle band of management, people who are established at their careers but may not be at the higher rung of leadership, not in the C-suite type roles, but are certainly primed to be once this next kind of tier of leadership retires off, like you mentioned.
andrea_threet (14:33.175)
once this next kind of tier of leadership retires off, like you mentioned. So now you're kind of ascending the corporate ladder, and you're sitting at the top. And now you have the power and influence to really set the tone in a way that takes hold in terms of corporate culture, that is.
angela_howard (14:41.138)
So now you're kind of ascending the corporate ladder and you're sitting at the top. And now you have the power and influence to really set the tone in a way that takes hold in terms of corporate culture. That is.
So it's, you know, it's your turn. So you get to decide how you want to define it, how you want to show up. You can now bring in all those characteristics and qualities of work that you were once, you know, previously demanding of current leadership to exemplify. You can now be that. And you can create that space and that.
andrea_threet (15:00.087)
So it's your turn. So you get to decide how you want to define it, how you want to show up. You can now bring in all those characteristics and qualities of work that you were once previously demanding of current leadership to exemplify. You can now be that. And you can create that space and those values and those ideals and have them be kind of core bedrock
angela_howard (15:23.798)
those values and those ideals and have them be kind of core, you know, bedrock pillars of the company. So, I mean, that in itself, I mean, that changes work as we know it, like workplace culture and the way that you and I, Angela, know it and study it and, you know, can fiddle with it. It's going to be all different types of issues. It'll look just entirely different.
andrea_threet (15:31.043)
pillars of the company. So I mean, that in itself, I mean, that changes work as we know it. Like workplace culture and the way that you and I, Angela, know it and study it and can fiddle with it, it's gonna be all different types of issues. It'll look just entirely different, but in a very exciting way. But yeah, so we are in...
angela_howard (15:53.782)
But in a very exciting way. Yes. But yeah, so we are in, I think, a critical piece of the leadership pipeline, to use your clever phrase, where those middle managers, which I put the label of millennial, but the growing workforce.
andrea_threet (15:59.995)
I think a critical piece of the leadership pipeline, to use your clever phrase, where those middle managers, which I put the label of millennial, but the growing workforce who are established and are primed to be leaders in the next few years, it's their time to really think about how they wanna show up.
angela_howard (16:17.998)
who are established and are primed to be leaders in the next few years, it's their time to really think about how they wanna show up.
Yes, yes. And it's kind of wild to me because I've always been the youngest person on a team or looking around and thinking, oh man, I'm not getting much respect here because I'm clearly the youngest person. But now I'm looking around and I'm seeing the Gen Zers who are popping into the workplace. And now I'm the person saying, oh wow, that's very different than how I would do
andrea_threet (16:37.832)
Thank you.
andrea_threet (16:49.239)
No, I didn't.
andrea_threet (16:56.124)
I know.
angela_howard (16:57.78)
there's such a like there's a lot more connection between Millennials and Gen Zers than like Millennials and Gen Xers or Baby Boomers and so that to me that's fascinating. Yeah I think that's fascinating too and Gen Zers are just so badass. They are taking kind of a...
andrea_threet (17:05.667)
Definitely.
andrea_threet (17:10.123)
I see that too. Yeah, I think that's fascinating too. And Jen's ears are just so badass. They are so, they are taking kind of the little bit that the millennials did, the Me Too movement, and have just amped it up to, they are passionate, and they are vocal, and they are.
angela_howard (17:24.602)
the little bit that the millennials did, the Me Too movement, and have just like amped it up to like, they are passionate and they are vocal and they are unapologetic, but like I respect that completely and all for the right things. Like I feel like they're not being frivolous in the things that they're, you know, talking about and demanding. So like it's exciting to me to see their enthusiasm.
andrea_threet (17:33.643)
unapologetic, but I respect that completely. And all for the right things. I feel like they're not being frivolous in the things that they're talking about and demanding. So it's exciting to me to see their enthusiasm. And I'm going to stop there.
angela_howard (17:48.33)
I mean, I'm curious to see how it plays out as they grow in the workforce, but completely agree. I think they are more...
andrea_threet (17:48.351)
I mean, I'm curious to see how it plays out as they grow in the workforce, but completely agree. I think they are millennials and the Gen Zers are definitely more kind of on that same, we wanna see a change in how we work, Trane. So completely agree.
angela_howard (17:55.71)
Millennials and the Gen Zers are definitely more kind of on that same We want to see a change and how we work Mm-hmm training so Completely agree and it's funny because when I talk to leaders executives a lot of times, you know, they're very focused on Millennials It's like oh this upcoming like we're kids, right? And I'm like, well, I'm like an elder millennial at this point. So I think you should be don't focus on me
andrea_threet (18:16.84)
I know.
andrea_threet (18:22.167)
Great.
Right.
angela_howard (18:25.744)
They are the ones who...
we need to be focused on. But I do think there's a lot of similarities. Again, I think there's a lot of threads that connect us. I think the connection to the main theme that I'm seeing that the Lloyd survey talked about is accountability, like you mentioned, and also this table stakes around business should have an active role in driving social change. Right.
andrea_threet (18:31.825)
They're shaking it up.
andrea_threet (18:45.775)
Thank you.
andrea_threet (18:55.823)
Great.
angela_howard (18:58.05)
which a lot of companies now are like, well, why do I have to talk about a social issue? And if I talk about one social issue, now I gotta talk about them all? That sounds exhausting. Right, right. Yeah, no, I see that too. It's like which issues are most important? Which issues are now important enough that we have to see something? And then that turns into, well,
andrea_threet (19:05.903)
Mm-hmm.
Right, right. Nope. Yeah, no, I see that too. You know, it's like which, now which issues are most important? Like which issues are now important enough that we have to, you know, say something? And then that turns into, well.
angela_howard (19:27.242)
you know, the perception of that type of attitude is that you're just saying something to appease us. Like you're not actually adopting this as a core value of, you know, the organization. It's just like an issue of the moment that you want to get off your desk. And like that's not really getting at what people are asking for. So it's, um,
andrea_threet (19:27.343)
you know, the perception of that type of attitude is that you're just saying something to appease us. Like you're not actually adopting this as a core value of, you know, the organization. It's just like an issue of the moment that you want to get off your desk. And like that's not really getting at what people are asking for. So it's, um, but yeah, I completely agree with what you're saying.
angela_howard (19:47.446)
But yeah, I completely agree with what you're saying. Yeah, and this idea of, I had a post the other day about performative culture. And the fact that it's this, I kind of envision executives talking in a room. And they're like, oh, our competitor over there is talking about Black Lives Matter. So we should do that. And then you post something. And it's like, well, what action are you actually, what are you putting your money up? Are you putting your investment? Are you changing policies? Are you changing process?
andrea_threet (19:57.596)
Mm-hmm.
andrea_threet (20:07.812)
You're right.
andrea_threet (20:12.03)
Mm-hmm.
andrea_threet (20:16.015)
Great.
angela_howard (20:18.32)
Like, what is your core? And I think it goes back to, you know, I work a lot with organizational identity, purpose, mission, vision, values. And, you know, I argue, you know, a lot of people say, well, values don't change. I would argue that I think you should probably be looking at those values right about now. And kind of, especially if your leadership has turned over into a new generation. Right.
andrea_threet (20:37.729)
Yeah. Agreed. Great. Yeah.
angela_howard (20:42.37)
I mean, it's time. If you developed your values 80 years ago, you may want to take a look. Things have changed. That's right. Things have changed.
andrea_threet (20:47.819)
Right. That's right. Things have changed. I mean, you can have certainly themes of values that you carry through, but you have to filter it through today's lens. So you have to reassess what those
angela_howard (20:54.21)
You can have certainly themes of values that you carry through, but you have to filter it through today's lens. So you have to reassess kind of what those values look like in today's world so that it fits, it makes sense. So yeah, definitely should be reassessing those regularly. Yeah, and maybe it's not the values that change, but it's the behaviors because a lot of companies
andrea_threet (21:08.555)
values look like in today's world so that it fits, it makes sense. So yeah, definitely should be reassessing those regularly.
andrea_threet (21:22.023)
Exactly.
angela_howard (21:23.924)
they plaster them on the wall or their website and but they don't define what okay what does this actually what does this buzzword actually mean in today's context too right yeah so there's no go ahead go ahead that just remind me that's exactly what
andrea_threet (21:26.191)
Mm-hmm.
andrea_threet (21:30.623)
What does this mean? Yes. What does this mean? Right. Yep. No, go ahead.
That just remind me, that's exactly what kind of happened in the wake of Me Too and to a lesser degree after these racial justice movements last summer is like we have.
angela_howard (21:48.01)
kind of happened in the wake of Me Too and to a lesser degree after these racial justice movements last summer is like we have the legal standard of what sexual harassment was never changed and so people didn't understand why we needed to change our values, our policies, what we understand harassment or respect at work to be.
andrea_threet (21:59.267)
The legal standard of what sexual harassment was never changed, and so people didn't understand why we needed to change our values, our policies, what we understand harassment or respect at work to be. But it's the behaviors, it's applying the behaviors and interweaving them to the pre-existing values so that people can interpret what that looks like under today's...
angela_howard (22:15.01)
But it's the behaviors. It's applying the behaviors and interweaving them to the preexisting values so that people can interpret what that looks like under today's.
you know, societal expectations like that changes throughout, you know, time and culture. Yeah. And it's so it's a changing world. We're at a pivot point. I mean, I know we talked about the pipeline of the pipeline of leaders coming into these roles that are making decisions and influencing. But do you have any thoughts just with your experience on ways that people who may be set in their ways? Right. Leaders who
andrea_threet (22:26.888)
you know, societal expectations, like that changes throughout, you know, time and culture. So.
andrea_threet (22:39.308)
Right.
angela_howard (22:57.6)
are curious, that curious population you talked about, anything to consider there? Because we have a lot of those leaders listening, and I'm sure they're curious as to what they can be doing tactically, how they can be doing some self-reflection. Any thoughts from you on that? Yeah, I think, yes, I think, first of all, it just takes a lot of listening.
andrea_threet (23:14.623)
Yeah, I think, yes, I think, first of all, it just takes a lot of listening. Hearing 360 feedback is both incredibly painful, but so illuminating and helpful. But understanding how you are being received currently, and if there's a delta between how others perceive you and how you want to be perceived,
angela_howard (23:23.906)
Hearing 360 feedback is both incredibly painful, but so illuminating and helpful. But understanding how you are being received currently, and if there's a delta between how others perceive you and how you want to be perceived, figuring out what steps do I need to take.
andrea_threet (23:44.471)
you know, figuring out what steps do I need to take to redefine my flavor of leadership and what do I want it to look like? And taking steps, you know, just practical day-to-day steps, it doesn't have to be kind of changing the world, but every interaction you have with someone is a chance to practice your desired, you know, brand of leadership. So take those opportunities to kind of...
angela_howard (23:49.206)
to redefine my flavor of leadership and what do I want it to look like. And taking steps, just practical day-to-day steps. It doesn't have to be kind of changing the world. But every interaction you have with someone is a chance to practice your desired brand of leadership. So take those opportunities to kind of.
to practice the type of boss you would like to be, the type of leader you would like to be. But first is just defining it. So listening to people, getting that feedback, defining what you want to be, and then practicing. I love it. The concept of 360 is such a key one. I think a lot of times when people think of 360, they think of the big assessment. Like you send it out to everyone, you get all this feedback. But it could simply be just, hey, I'm
andrea_threet (24:15.075)
practice the type of boss you would like to be, the type of leader you would like to be. But first is just defining it. So listening to people, getting that feedback, defining what you want to be, and then practicing.
angela_howard (24:45.312)
one direct report and my boss, once a quarter, how I'm doing, how I'm being perceived. And collecting and taking an active interest in your development.
andrea_threet (24:53.601)
Mm-hmm. That's genius.
Right.
angela_howard (25:00.706)
Definitely. And I think that will pay dividends in all the people around you that you're asking, just you showing that you're taking an interest and wanting to be a better leader in that way would certainly have a positive impact upon them.
andrea_threet (25:00.707)
Definitely, and I think that will pay dividends in all the people around you that you're asking that you know just you showing that you're taking an interest and wanting to be a better leader in that way would you know certainly have a positive impact upon them.
angela_howard (25:16.97)
So yeah, and I think it comes back to a growth mindset. You know, I oftentimes think like 30 years from now, will I be that leader who is like, you know, stuck in their ways and it's gonna be such an interesting seeing us getting older, right? And being in that position and Gen Z and whatever the next generation is, is there gonna be tension? I am sure there is going to be for different reasons. But I think regardless of your generation,
andrea_threet (25:21.432)
Mm-hmm, definitely.
andrea_threet (25:33.42)
Yeah.
andrea_threet (25:40.057)
Yeah.
angela_howard (25:47.504)
I think you're way ahead of the curve because you're able to reflect on the realization either that you need to step back and let fresh ideas in or innovative ideas in. But it is about timing, I feel like. I've been in situations even at my age where I've been in a role for a few years and I'm thinking I've hit a ceiling.
andrea_threet (25:55.545)
Yeah.
angela_howard (26:16.864)
me grooming somebody else who has fresh ideas and coming in and making it even better. So I have no ego behind that. I think ego plays into this a lot too. Oh, for sure. She's like, yes, I agree 100%. 100% ego is playing a role in a lot of different respects. But yeah, I mean, when you have...
andrea_threet (26:24.815)
Great.
andrea_threet (26:28.559)
for sure.
andrea_threet (26:34.544)
Absolutely. 100% ego is playing a role in a lot of different respects. But yeah, I mean, when you have achieved a measure of success and you feel like you know the way to do it, I mean, why would you change unless you have a growth mindset and just a desire to be better? But I totally get the natural inclination to just kind of sit on your laurels.
angela_howard (26:41.694)
achieved a measure of success and you feel like you know the way to do it. I mean, yeah, why would you change if unless you have a growth mindset and just a desire to be better? But I, I totally get the natural inclination to just sit on your laurels. And I think this also plays into not just the more established leaders, but also those emerging leaders who are still figuring it out.
andrea_threet (26:59.007)
And I think this also plays into not just the more established leaders, but also those emerging leaders who are still figuring it out. And because they're still figuring it out, might be...
angela_howard (27:11.326)
And because they're still figuring it out, might be, take the very natural inclination to just emulate the models of success that are existing in front of them, which might be fine, but it might not be.
andrea_threet (27:15.115)
you know, take the very natural inclination to just emulate the models of success that are existing in front of them, which might be fine, but it might not be a true and authentic, you know, model of leadership that fits with them, that aligns with them and how they wanna show up as leaders.
angela_howard (27:28.386)
a true and authentic model of leadership that fits with them, that aligns with them, and how they want to show up as leaders. And it could be perpetuating the less desirable qualities of leadership that we don't really want to see perpetuated going forward. So I think even before you get into, or at least in your earlier days of leadership, you should still be thinking
andrea_threet (27:38.147)
And it could be perpetuating kind of the less desirable qualities of leadership that we don't really want to see perpetuated going forward. So I think even before you get into, or at least in your earlier days of leadership, you should still be thinking about how I want to show up as a leader, defining what you want your brand of leadership to be, and defining that, and starting to practice becoming that type of leader.
angela_howard (27:58.18)
up as a leader, defining what you want your brand of leadership to be and defining that and starting to practice becoming that type of leader. That's brilliant. Yeah, I think that we have a long ways to go with shifting the paradigm on that, the construct of leadership. I think it's going to happen naturally because these things are already happening. Right.
the paradigm around leadership. Because I mean, if you still go back to, I'm an ILO psychologist, so a lot of my research is in academia, and you look at the sample sizes and who they use, it's very traditional. It's still very traditional. And so we've got to get better representation of leadership, not your white males in college. We have to redefine the definition. And so I think that's going to be our generation who
andrea_threet (28:30.359)
Yes, completely.
angela_howard (28:58.08)
that for sure. Exactly, exactly. I think you're spot on there. And that just takes time. That takes time. But
andrea_threet (28:59.207)
Exactly, exactly. I think you're spot on there. And that just takes time. That takes time. But I think we're moving in that direction, which is exciting.
angela_howard (29:07.838)
I think we're moving in that direction, which is exciting. Yeah, it takes time. And I think we are probably the most impatient generation. And Gen Z is like 10 times more impatient. Oh, yeah. I'm hoping we'll create some speed with that. But it was such a pleasure talking with you. It always is. Such an honor. I had a d-
andrea_threet (29:17.763)
Yeah. Oh, yeah. They wait for nothing.
Yeah.
andrea_threet (29:29.691)
Angela, such an honor. I had a delightful time, as always, when I talked to you. So thank you so much for having me.
angela_howard (29:33.142)
Delightful time, as always, when I talk to you. So thank you so much for having me. Yes, yes, and I could talk to you all day. So we definitely need to do this again. Maybe talk about another topic similar to emerging leadership, because I love this topic. And just thank you for sharing your insights, your time, sharing this space with me today. And thanks for joining Humanly Possible, Andrea. Thank you so much.
andrea_threet (29:41.187)
I'll see you guys.
andrea_threet (29:47.822)
Yeah.
andrea_threet (29:59.427)
Thank you so much.
