Being Vulnerable is FUN with Garry Turner
angela_howard (00:01.094)
Okay, well welcome, Gary. Thank you so much for joining Humanly Possible. I am honored to have you on the show. I could, first of all, I wish we could make this episode like three hours because I could talk to you about a variety of topics. But before we get into it, tell us who is Gary and what makes you human? Oh.
garry_turner (00:01.49)
Okay, well welcome Gary. Thank you so much for joining Humanly Possible. I am honored to have you on the show. First of all, I wish we could make this episode like three hours because I have talked to you about a variety of topics. But before we get into it, tell us who is Gary and what makes you human? Oh my goodness. So I'll start with the second bit first of all, Angela, if I may. And yes, three hours wouldn't be enough.
angela_howard (00:24.63)
goodness. So I'll start with the second bit first of all, Angela if I may, and yes three hours wouldn't be enough. What makes me human increasingly, and this hasn't always been the case, is the ability to feel and to embody what I want to see the change in the world.
garry_turner (00:31.438)
What makes me human increasingly, and this hasn't always been the case, is the ability to feel and to embody what I want to see, the change in the world.
But that's quite a recent thing, to be honest. In terms of a bit of an intro to me, trying to stay out the corporate traditional introduction, Angela, but I tend to come in these days from talking about the fact that I'm a reforming human being. I can explain more about what that means for me, but what that means is I actually in the corporate role, I look after 20 million's worth of business. If I put my corporate hat on, international salesperson, I lead on culture and people.
angela_howard (00:44.158)
I love that. That's quite a recent thing, to be honest. In terms of a bit of an intro to me, trying to stay out of the corporate traditional introduction, Angela, but I tend to come in these days from talking about the fact that I'm a reforming human being.
explain more about what that means for me but what that means is I actually in the corporate role look after 20 millions worth of business you know if I put my corporate hat on you know international salesperson I lead on culture and people unofficially within the organization which I serve but I've also got this huge network which I'm grateful you're part of and I just have an absolutely incredible thirst for lifelong learning and that's probably the best the best way to finish my intro.
garry_turner (01:14.166)
unofficially within the organisation which I serve. But I've also got this huge network which I'm grateful you're part of. And I just have an absolutely incredible thirst for lifelong learning. And that's probably the best way to finish my intro.
angela_howard (01:31.724)
liked both parts of your intro and so tell us a little bit more about this recovering piece of being human. What's the background on that? We got to hear more about that.
garry_turner (01:35.928)
parts of your intro and so tell us a little bit more about this recovering piece of being human. What's the background on that? We gotta hear more about that. Well do you know something I think it's a massive for me it's really for a bit of a journey myself back from when I was a child you know 12-13 years old bullied by othered to use the language we talk about a lot in the DEI space I was othered by a group of boys.
angela_howard (01:45.218)
Well, do you know something? I think it's a massive, for me, it's really for a bit of a journey myself back from when I was a child, you know, 12, 13 years old, bullied by othered, to use the language we talk about a lot in the DEI space, I was othered by a group of boys at the age of 12, 13, beaten up by them repeatedly, not made to feel welcome or that I belong in that area when I moved to West Wales, a country on the west of the UK. And I held on to that.
garry_turner (02:02.126)
at the age of 12, 13, beaten up by them repeatedly, not made to feel welcome or that I belong in that area when I moved to West Wales, a country on the west of the UK, and I held on to that feeling of being bullied for over 20 years because I didn't know how to feel, I didn't know how to express hurt or shame or upset or anger. So I held on to that story for over 20 years and it's been the last five years only that I've started to
angela_howard (02:14.738)
feeling of being bullied for over 20 years because I didn't know how to feel, I didn't know how to express hurt or shame or upset or anger so I held on to that story for over 20 years and it's been the last five years only that I've started to unpick all of that and it's what's amazing Angela is so much for it was just stories that I told myself that I held on to, believed and held with
garry_turner (02:31.082)
unpick all of that and it's what's amazing Angela is so much for it was just stories that I told myself that I held on to believed and held with a clenched fist and if I'm going to be bold I think that's a lot of the challenge we see in the world within corporations today.
angela_howard (02:44.026)
I think that's a lot of the challenge we see in the world within corporations today. Well I mean the dynamics are similar to the playground, you know, the bullying and the, I mean sometimes unfortunately connecting bullying with leadership and the power struggles and the dynamics. I mean we haven't changed much Gary. We haven't changed much. It's a really good point you make.
garry_turner (02:49.158)
So, yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, the dynamics are similar to the playground, you know, the bullying and the, I mean, sometimes unfortunately, connecting bullying with leadership and the power struggles and the dynamics, I mean, we haven't changed much, Gary. Ha ha ha. We haven't changed much, and it's a really good point you make. Actually, why do you think that is Angela? Like, we've got so much evidence for the value of DEI, we've got so much evidence.
angela_howard (03:11.886)
actually, why do you think that is Angela? Like, we've got so much evidence for the value of DEI, we've got so much evidence for the value of being human, like we make more money, it's healthier, better outcomes, but we're not shifting that quickly. So I wonder what you think is going on there or not. Yeah, I quite honestly, I think that
garry_turner (03:18.79)
for the value of being human. Like we make more money, it's healthier, better outcomes. But we're not shifting that quickly. So I wonder what you think's going on there or not. Yeah, quite honestly, I think that we have a traditional, we have a flawed definition of leadership that has been centered around characteristics that aren't serving us anymore.
angela_howard (03:31.53)
We have a traditional, we have a flawed definition of leadership that has been centered around characteristics that aren't serving us anymore.
Or I would say never served us, but some people would say, well, businesses ran just fine 10, 20, 30 years ago. But I think that we see in the research that human-centric businesses with engaged employees provide three times more profit. We see, I think, actual scaling of the impact organizations have on people seep into societies and communities.
garry_turner (03:44.914)
Or now I would say never served us but I you know some people would say well businesses ran just fine 10 20 30 years ago but I think that
We see in the research that human-centered businesses with engaged employees provide three times more profit. We see, I think, actual scaling of the impact organizations have on people, seep into societies and communities. So, you know, I agree with you, the evidence is there, but I think there's a mental block around.
angela_howard (04:13.936)
I agree with you, the evidence is there, but I think there's a mental block around the work and the self-reflection that's needed to be empathetic toward other people and to understand others' differences because our brain is also kind of flawed. I think we carry a lot of bias that tells us that we're right and our perspective is right. So everyone else must be the problem. I think it's the human condition, quite honestly, that we're trying to combat.
garry_turner (04:21.738)
the work and the self-reflection that's needed to be empathetic toward other people and to understand others differences because Our brain is also kind of flawed I think we carry a lot of bias that tells us that we're rights and our perspective is right So everyone else must be the problem. I think it's I think it's the human condition Honestly that we're trying to come back here. So yes, it's a great a great point
angela_howard (04:43.876)
here. So yeah, it's a great point. It's so interesting because that human condition is the one thing that we all share, every one of the eight billion or so people on the planet. We've just got different degrees of awareness or consciousness as to what that means for us.
garry_turner (04:50.034)
It's so interesting because that human condition is the one thing that we all share. Every one of the 8 billion or so people on the planet. We've just got different degrees of awareness or consciousness as to what that means for us. You know, do we do we do we... Yeah, I'm just fascinated by that human condition comment that you made because it is a leveller. If we can come towards one another through that equity and equality of we are all human.
angela_howard (05:05.642)
So yeah, I'm just fascinated by that human condition comment that you made, because it is a leveller if we can come towards one another.
through that equity and equality of we are all human. Yeah, and I think this kind of gets into the idea of leadership, which I really wanted to kind of pick your brain and bounce some ideas around with you today because, and it's connecting back to your personal story that you shared around how we self-regulate and manage our emotions and
garry_turner (05:19.262)
Yeah, and I think, you know, this kind of gets into the idea of leadership, which I really wanted to kind of pick your brain and bounce some ideas around with you today because, you know, it's connecting back to your personal story that you shared around how we self-regulate and manage our emotions and...
angela_howard (05:43.658)
you know, use our emotions for good and use our empathy and our vulnerability for good, what do you think the future of leadership looks like?
garry_turner (05:45.242)
you know, use our emotions for good and use our empathy and our vulnerability for good. What do you think the future of leadership looks like? Very, very, very different to what we're still experiencing in 2021, to be honest. And there's no judgment of any body when I make that comment, Angela. It's, it, excuse me, when people talk about systemic people, I think at times, including me, very innocently,
angela_howard (05:54.966)
very different to what we're still experiencing in 2021 to be honest and there's no judgment of anybody when I make that comment Angela it's it excuse me when people talk about systemic people I think at times including me very innocently you can think about this being quite an ethereal thing it's over there somewhere I can't really make a difference with the systemic challenges if we think about education as a part of the system
garry_turner (06:13.742)
You can think about this being quite an ethereal thing. It's over there somewhere. I can't really make a difference with the systemic challenges. But if we think about education as a part of the system, have we ever been taught how to feel? Have we ever been taught it's okay to express? No, we've been taught, suppress it, hide it away. There's only one way to do everything. And like, if you're getting that message from your parents, early stage education through to your...
angela_howard (06:25.466)
ever been taught how to feel? Have we ever been taught it's okay to express? No, we've been taught suppress it, hide it away. There's only one way to do everything and like if you're getting that message from your parents, early stage education through to your degree studies, we've still got a system that's churning out young people up to the age of 21.
garry_turner (06:43.958)
degree studies, we've still got a system that's churning out young people up to the age of 21 that aren't being educated unless they've got really good parents or amazing sort of peer groups. They're going into the workplace not knowing it's okay to feel. And I think that's the number one biggest change that we're going to see is moving from even the knowledge in our head that yeah psychological safety is a good thing vulnerability self-awareness.
angela_howard (06:52.142)
that aren't being educated, unless they've got really good parents or amazing sort of peer groups, they're going into the workplace not knowing it's okay to feel. And I think that's the number one biggest change that we're going to see is moving from even the knowledge in our head that yeah, psychological safety is a good thing, vulnerability, self-awareness, like all of these great buzzwords that we, you and I talk about and we know matter.
garry_turner (07:13.762)
Like all of these great buzzwords that you and I talk about and we know matter. But to talk about it is one thing, Angela, to embody it as a leader is a very, very different thing. And I think we're seeing a transition from just thinking to embodying. And that is going to be hard work, but really, really good work. And it's going to make a huge difference.
angela_howard (07:18.766)
But to talk about it is one thing Angela, to embody it as a leader is a very, very different thing. And I think we're seeing a transition from just thinking to embodying. And that is going to be hard work, but really, really good work and it's going to make a huge difference.
Yeah, and I wanna go back to your question about the mental block of this work, and I do think it is systemic. I think that it's systemic in the way that we have a construct of leadership, like I mentioned, that is the traditional construct of leadership, which is words like winner, absolute, aggressive, outspoken, charismatic. I mean, not all these are bad words,
garry_turner (07:38.65)
to your question about the mental block of this work. And I do think it is systemic. I think that it's systemic in the way that we have a construct of leadership, like I mentioned, that is the traditional construct of leadership, which is words like winner, absolute.
aggressive, outspoken, charismatic. I mean, not all these are bad words, you know, but I think we have painted, at least, you know, in my country, in the US, might be different for you, but at least in the US, we have this leadership persona that's...
angela_howard (08:04.916)
you know, but I think we have painted, at least, you know, in my country, in the US, might be different for you, but at least in the US, we have this leadership persona that is kind of against being human-centric. It's against being vulnerable and emotional and using those transformative characteristics.
garry_turner (08:23.494)
is kind of against being human centric. It's against being vulnerable and emotional and in using that those transformative characteristics and when I say transformative I mean things that drive positive change. So what do you think? What's the persona of leadership in your neck of the woods and do you see it changing? Yeah it's a really great question. So I'm based in the UK,
angela_howard (08:35.056)
I mean things that drive positive change. So what do you think? What's the persona of leadership in your neck of the woods and do you see it changing? Yeah, it's a really great question. So I'm based in the UK, of course that funny little island What's really interesting for me to answer your question Angela is that I think
garry_turner (08:53.308)
at the top of Europe. What's really interesting for me, to answer your question Angela, is that I think we've still very much got similar challenges to you. That's the number one point, you know, it doesn't matter what you read, who you talk to, and what drives it. I guess I'm a big advocate of root cause analysis when we talk about leadership and culture and diversity and inclusion. Like what's the absolute upstream challenge?
angela_howard (09:03.03)
We've still very much got similar challenges to you. That's the number one point. It doesn't matter what you read, who you talk to. And what drives it? I guess I'm a big advocate of root cause analysis when we talk about leadership and culture and diversity and inclusion. What's the absolute upstream challenge? So I think when we talk about leadership, why do we have so much traditional leadership still?
garry_turner (09:23.15)
So I think when we talk about leadership, why do we have so much traditional leadership still? It's because we can be as we've always been and still make a great salary and still have a great job and still have all the comforts that we've always had. There's no incentive to change.
angela_howard (09:27.498)
It's because we can be, as we've always been, and still make a great salary, and still have a great job, and still have all the comforts that we've always had. There's no incentive to change. And I'm speaking as a white male.
garry_turner (09:41.446)
And I'm speaking as a white male who, like, particularly for those that look like me, like, there is, like, with all of the furor of the last 12 months, I think honestly part of the reason things aren't shifting quick enough is because we don't have enough felt understanding of what it's like. We're not, we don't have real felt conversations about what's it like actually, you know.
angela_howard (09:45.174)
who like particularly for those that look like me like there's like with all of the furor of the last 12 months i think honestly part of the reason things aren't shifting quick enough because we don't have enough felt understanding of what it's like we're not we don't have real felt conversations about what's it like actually you know for a black man to just live life
garry_turner (10:08.978)
for a black man to just live life. Like how do more people that are Caucasian understand that lived experience? That is not a priority in workplaces. What's a priority in workplaces is have we hit the next quarter's numbers yet? How do we grow? How do we acquire? How do we expand? And until we have a different paradigm, back to your point about mindset, until we can genuinely
angela_howard (10:11.286)
Like how do more people that are Caucasian understand that lived experience? That is not a priority in workplaces. What's a priority in workplaces is how we hit the next quarter's numbers yet. How do we grow? How do we acquire? How do we expand? And until we have a different paradigm, back to your point about mindset, until we can genuinely strive to hit, I'm not a big fan of metrics per se, but I think we've got to meet people where we're at.
garry_turner (10:35.39)
strive to hit, I'm not a big fan of metrics per se, but I think we've got to meet people where we're at. You know, what are the human metrics? I love your thoughts on this, you might be working on this Angela, but what's the set of humane KPIs that need to sit alongside the financial KPIs so that we can actually bring a convergence of high performance that we still need for businesses, we need to grow, we need to employ people, but how do we inject humanity in a way?
angela_howard (10:40.002)
know what are the human metrics I love your thoughts on this you might you might be working on this Angela but what's the set of humane KPIs that need to sit alongside the financial KPIs that we can actually bring a convergence of
high performance that we still need for businesses, we need to grow, we need to employ people. But how do we inject humanity in a way that is going to be consistent, conscious and embedded over time? I think we're missing those human metrics.
garry_turner (11:04.646)
that is going to be consistent, conscious and embedded over time. And I think we're missing those human metrics.
angela_howard (11:13.579)
Yeah, and I think we've kind of been the history of employee experience, employee engagement, all these buzzwords around metrics. And they all come down to, I think, a few things just from a business perspective. But I think what we're not measuring is the human experience. And I think part of the mental block is
garry_turner (11:15.671)
Yeah, I think we've kind of been the history of the employee experience, employee engagement, all these buzzwords around metrics. And they all come down to, I think, a few things just from a business perspective. But I think what we're not measuring is the human experience. And I think part of the mental block is...
angela_howard (11:37.454)
corporations don't see themselves as responsible for that. We're employing humans to do a job and we're only focused on the job they're doing and not the human. So that is, I think, the part of the mental block, which is, well, if we start caring about this, what else are we gonna have to care about then? Are we gonna have to care about, you know,
garry_turner (11:39.59)
corporations don't see themselves as responsible for that. We're employing humans to do a job and we're only focused on the job they're doing and not the human. So that is, I think, part of the mental block, which is, well, if we start caring about this, what else are we gonna have to care about then? Are we gonna have to care about...
angela_howard (12:02.25)
you know, whether or not someone is, you know, homeless and we've got to, like, it's like, it's like, it spirals into like, how much should we care? And that's not the right, I don't think that's the right approach. It's like, we should care about the whole, if we are employing humans for eight hours a day, 10 hours a day, we have a responsibility versus, you know, tracking, you know, a bunch of metrics. I think it's just, we have a responsibility. What is our, let's define our responsibility to the humans we employ.
garry_turner (12:04.738)
whether or not someone is homeless and we've got to, it spirals into how much should we care? And that's not the right, I don't think that's the right approach. It's like, we should care about the whole, if we are employing humans for eight hours a day, 10 hours a day, we have a responsibility versus tracking a bunch of metrics. I think it's just, we have a responsibility. Let's define our responsibility to the humans we employ.
angela_howard (12:33.344)
And then I say this all the time, you know, you're then sending these humans back to their societies, back to their communities, back to their families, and how you have nurtured them or stressed them is going to multiply. So I see it as a responsibility, and I think that's where we need to get to is this consciousness around that.
garry_turner (12:35.572)
And then I say this all the time, you know, you're then sending these humans back to their societies, back to their communities, back to their families, and how you have nurtured them or stressed them is going to multiply. So I see it as a responsibility. And I think that's where we need to get to is this consciousness around that.
Hmm, I think it's a really, really lovely lens you're looking through actually, Angela, for me on that point because again, I can't speak for my organisation. I'm here as, you know, as Gary, but what I've experienced in not only my current organisation, but right throughout my career here in the UK, I know I work internationally, I've travelled internationally for over 20 years. The interesting thing is that regardless of the national culture that I visited,
angela_howard (13:02.967)
I think it's a really, really lovely lens you're looking through actually Angela for me on that point because again, I can't speak for my organisation. I'm here as you know, as Gary, but what I've experienced in not only my current organisation, but right throughout my career here in the UK, I work internationally. I've traveled internationally for over 20 years.
The interesting thing is that regardless of the national culture that I visited, it's been the same human challenges. Whether I've been to India, whether I've been to China, whether I've been to the US, whether I've been to South Africa, whether it's been around Europe. These challenges are consistent human challenges beyond...
garry_turner (13:32.634)
it's been the same human challenges. Whether I've been to India, whether I've been to China, whether I've been to the US, whether I've been to South Africa, where it's been all around Europe. These challenges are consistent human challenges beyond colour, beyond sex, you know, identification, beyond everything else that we, you know, rightfully for some reasons categorise, other reasons that can be a challenge because it sort of boxes us off. But...
I can't emphasise enough how critical you're, the lens you're looking at through this human piece and it's not to negate that we need to focus on different subsets of humanity such as the Black Lives Matter, you know, such as transgender rights, you know, those have a focus for a good reason and we need to amplify those conversations. But the root cause is humanity and when we can get back to actually what does it mean to be human, like that's not a conversation in the workplace, Angela.
Like, I don't have that conversation in the workplace. Like, it's not even on the agenda.
angela_howard (14:34.718)
Yeah, and I think people have tried to call it different things, like I said, employee experience, but I do think we're moving towards this more holistic view of what that means. And so what are some of the, you mentioned that you see similarities, what are some of those similarities that you're seeing? What are things that would make a workplace more human? Like what are three or four things that would achieve that, do you think?
garry_turner (14:37.314)
Yeah, and it's, and I think people have tried to call it different things, like, like I said, employee experience and, but I do think we're moving towards this more holistic view of what that means. And so what are some of the, you mentioned that you see similarities, what are some of those similarities that you're seeing? What, you know, what are, what are things that would make a workplace more human? Like what are three or four things that would,
would achieve that do you think? Yeah so I've got some really clear answers to that um brilliant question so first of all is pace so it's the intentionality of slowing down so actually you can't connect on a human level if you're running at 100 miles an hour the pandemic shown us that brilliantly you know we've had to connect over virtual which you can do you and I did brilliantly at our first conversation
But we need to slow down and be much more intentional, I think, around connecting on a human level, which means if I'm asking Angela, how are you doing today? I'm asking you because I want to hear how you're doing today. I'm not looking for an off the cuff, yeah, I'm doing all right, and then I can walk away. I have to want, back to your point about care and responsibility. So I think that's definitely, and that's happening, I'm seeing that is definitely starting to happen. There is a more caring approach to...
to the workplace emerging. I'm definitely seeing that as a common theme. A common thing that I know needs to shift but isn't anywhere near quick enough is a focus, well, again, there's a lot to talk about it, is development of what I call humanistic skills. Some call it soft skills, human skills, but I call them humanistic skills. Well, it's self-awareness, whether it's vulnerability, whether it's listening. Those three that I just shared, they are absolute.
golden eggs of opportunity. I, and actually I'd add a fourth in, and that is actually intuition. So you can look at it as mindset, but the word mindset brings with it, you know, the sort of growth fix mindset. It does bring this sort of polarization for me in a way. So when I come at it through intuition, it's like, oh, actually, yeah, what are those ideas that we can have in the moment if we create the space for them to emerge? So intuition, vulnerability,
angela_howard (16:53.87)
So intuition, vulnerability, self-awareness, and listening, those four in particular, because I've trained in all of them and I've seen the impact of them, which by the way, Angela, was an increase in 6 million euros of sales and gross margin of 1.5 million over three years within my immediate sales team. Nothing else changed. Same people, same organization, similar market dynamics, similar competitive environment.
garry_turner (16:58.926)
self-awareness and listening. Those humans, those four in particular, because I've trained in all of them and I've seen the impact of them, which by the way, and there was an increase in 6 million euros of sales and gross margin of one and a half million over three years within my immediate sales team. Nothing else changed. Same people, same organizations, similar market dynamics, similar competitive environment. All we did was shift intentionally how we organize as a team. And...
angela_howard (17:21.138)
All we did was shift intentionally how we organize as a team. And so a lot of that was based around those human skills. So I'll stop there for a second, but they're two that jump up really, really powerfully. Yeah, I kind of want to dig into the vulnerability.
garry_turner (17:28.974)
So a lot of that was based around those human skills. So I'll stop there for a second, but they're two that jump up really, really powerfully.
Yeah, I kind of want to dig into the vulnerability one that you just mentioned. I know you gave really great insight into what that looks like. And self-awareness, I think, fits right into that. So, you know, I think when people hear the term vulnerability, they...
angela_howard (17:39.042)
one that you just mentioned. I know you gave really great insight into what that looks like. And self-awareness I think fits right into that. So I think when people hear the term vulnerability, they...
they get a little nervous, right? Because vulnerability, I mean, I wish I had the actual definition, like the Webster's Dictionary definition, but if I can remember what it is, it sounds like someone who's exposed, and maybe, here we go, the quality or state of being exposed to the possibility of being attacked or harmed, either physically or emotionally. So even in our dictionary,
garry_turner (17:56.198)
they get a little nervous, right? Because vulnerability, I mean, I wish I had the actual definition, like the Webster's Dictionary definition, but if I can remember what it is, it sounds like someone who's exposed, but maybe, here we go, the quality or state of being exposed to the possibility of being attacked or harmed, either physically or emotionally. So even in our dictionary,
angela_howard (18:23.36)
scary concept. So how are you thinking about vulnerability differently and why is it so important for leaders to have it and be open to it? Yeah.
garry_turner (18:26.632)
scary concept. So how are you thinking about vulnerability differently and why is it so important for leaders to have it and be open to it? Yeah this is where we need three hours Angela but give us a succinct reply.
angela_howard (18:39.874)
This is where we need three hours. If you give me a succinct reply. So if I may mention something, it's a podcast that I had for over two and a half years called Value Through Vulnerabilities. There's 138 episodes over two and a half years sitting out there on your favourite podcast platform. Now that's just, there's nothing in it for me except it's just a passion project and it's sitting there for anyone that wants to dive into more of this specific discussion on vulnerability.
garry_turner (18:48.47)
So if I may mention something, it's a podcast that I had for over two and a half years called Value Through Vulnerabilities. There's 138 episodes over two and a half years sitting out there on your favourite podcast platform. Now, that's just there's nothing in it for me except it's just a passion project and it's sitting there for anyone that wants to dive into more of this specific discussion on vulnerability. Now, why I wanted to share that as the sort of primer.
angela_howard (19:10.728)
is what I've learned from my own lived experience, Angela, but also through these incredible guests that were a mixture of consultants, CEOs, DEI specialists, educators. The really common theme is that if you think about vulnerability, it's like a dial. You take a look at the
garry_turner (19:13.026)
is what I've learned from my own lived experience, Angela, but also through these incredible guests that were a mixture of consultants, CEOs, DEI specialists, educators. The really common theme is that if you think about vulnerability, it's like a dial. You don't have to be all in, showing all your waltz and all. Like I'm a very open person. I'm very transparent with my vulnerability, but I don't need to be. You know, I can show a bit more of me.
in order that you and I can connect. I've just met Angela. I'm getting on really, really well with you. I think I'm gonna have further conversations. I'm gonna learn from you. You're very different to me. And I can feel there's a connection there. I'm just gonna share, actually, let me just tell you a little bit about, if I may, Angela, about this occasion where I felt really afraid. I felt so afraid to challenge. I knew something was going wrong. Someone was being aggressed. And I didn't say anything. And I felt so bad about that. That's vulnerability.
angela_howard (19:44.174)
I'm getting really, really well with you. I think I want to have further conversations. I want to learn from you. You're very different to me. And I can feel there's a connection there. I'm just going to share actually, let me just tell you a little bit about, if I may, Angela, about this occasion where I felt really afraid.
I felt so afraid to challenge. I know someone was going wrong, someone was being aggressed and I didn't say anything and I felt so bad about that. That's vulnerability, to show that you didn't have the answer, to show that actually you couldn't help, you know, you didn't step up. Like that's vulnerability to share a story is one example. Another example of vulnerability is very simply to say, hey, Angela, you know, that project we're working on together.
garry_turner (20:11.974)
to show that you didn't have the answer, to show that actually you couldn't help, you didn't step up. That's vulnerability to share a story is one example. Another example of vulnerability is very simply to say, hey, Angela, that project we're working on together, I'm actually really lost. I really need your help, or is there anyone else you know that could help me? Because I'm really struggling, I don't understand, or I've really lost the context of what we're working on together. That's vulnerability.
angela_howard (20:26.698)
I'm actually really lost, like I really need your help or is there anyone else you know that could help me? Because I'm really struggling, I don't understand or I've really lost the context of what we're working on together. That's vulnerability. So it's not for me, it's not this all encompassing walking out with your arms wide for someone to stab you in the heart. That's not the point of vulnerability. Vulnerability is a gateway to meaningful connection.
garry_turner (20:41.518)
So it's not for me, it's not this all encompassing, walking out with your arms wide for someone to stab you in the heart. That's not the point of vulnerability. Vulnerability is a gateway to meaningful connection. Whatever that means for you. And that's how I'd probably how I'd start the explanation for me, Angela. Yeah, that sounds like you're also adding it as a, it's a tool a little bit. And I don't mean it like you're.
angela_howard (20:51.434)
whatever that means for you. Yeah. That's probably how I'd start the explanation for me, Angela. Yeah, and it sounds like you're also adding, it's a tool a little bit. And I don't mean it like you're, it's disingenuine, but it is something that.
garry_turner (21:08.646)
It's just in genuine, but it is something that you have control over. So you're not out of control if you're being vulnerable. I think people misconstrue that. Like, if I'm being vulnerable, I'm not in control. Actually, you are in control because you're finding ways to...
angela_howard (21:09.254)
you have control over, so you're not out of control if you're being vulnerable. I think people misconstrue that, like if I'm being vulnerable, I'm not in control. Actually, you are in control because you're finding ways to use it as a tool in the sense of showing other people you're human, I think. That's how I use it, right? As a leader, I'm very cognizant that
garry_turner (21:27.402)
use it as a tool in the sense of showing other people you're human. I think that's how I use it, right? As a leader, I'm very cognizant that people look up to me, people are looking to me for answers, and I also want to make it very clear to them that actually I think you have the answer and not me. So if I can express I made a mistake,
angela_howard (21:36.098)
People look up to me, people are looking to me for answers, and I also wanna make it very clear to them that actually I think you have the answer and not me. So if I can express I've made a mistake, I coulda done that better. Now we're in a level playing field. There's no, you're my subordinate and I'm your leader. There is, we're in a partnership, we're in this together. And by the way, I make mistakes, I'm not perfect. I'm just like you. So I think that relatability is the tool,
garry_turner (21:51.794)
I could have done that better. Now we're at a level playing field. There's no, you're my subordinate and I'm your leader. There is work in a partnership. We're in this together. By the way, I make mistakes. I'm not perfect. I'm just like you. So I think that relatability is the tool, the lever part of it, which you can use to build relationships like you, like you mentioned.
angela_howard (22:06.132)
the lever part of it which you can use to build relationships like you mentioned. I love that relatability comment. That's a really lovely way to think about this actually because you've now got me thinking about after the tragic murder of George Floyd, I realised I did an analysis, if I may share, of my LinkedIn. I had 4,000 people at that time. I was like, okay, I'm connected to these people. Really interesting. I looked at the first thousand.
garry_turner (22:14.998)
I love that relatability comment. That's a really lovely way to think about this actually, because you've now got me thinking about, after the tragic murder of George Floyd, I realised I did an analysis, if I may share, of my LinkedIn. So I had 4,000 people at that time. I was like, okay, yeah, I'm connected with these people. Really interesting. I looked at the first thousand, six black men were in my LinkedIn network out of the first thousand that I looked at.
angela_howard (22:35.802)
six black men were in my LinkedIn network out of the first thousand that I looked at. And why am I sharing that? A, it's an invitation for anyone listening to us now. Have you actually looked checks on the diversity of your network? Question number one, because if you're so over indexed as I was on, again, Caucasian human beings,
garry_turner (22:46.426)
Why am I sharing that? It's an invitation for anyone listening to us now. Have you actually checked on the diversity of your network? Question number one. Because if you're so over-indexed as I was on, again, Caucasian human beings, how am I going to learn about other subsets of humanity and other ideas and other ways of being and other lived experience if I'm being fed more of the same?
angela_howard (22:59.922)
Like how am I going to learn about other subsets of humanity and other ideas and other ways of being, other lived experience if I'm being fed, you know, more of the same. And that's why that relatability bit got me.
garry_turner (23:13.102)
That's why that relatability bit got me, Angela, is we can relate with one another through vulnerability, yet be so, so different in terms of where we come from, our lived experience, our understanding of the world. So we can relate at a felt level, even though we come from such different places on the planet. And so I love that relatability. I've never thought of it through that lens. So it's beautiful. Yeah. And I think a lot of what we, the relatability are
angela_howard (23:15.434)
we can relate with one another through vulnerability, yet be so, so different in terms of where we come from, our lived experience, our understanding of the world. So we can relate at a felt level, even though we come from such different places on the planet. And so I love that relatability. I've never thought of it through that lens. So it's beautiful. Yeah, and I think a lot of what we, the relatability are human condition things, like fear, like happiness, like excitement,
garry_turner (23:42.198)
human condition things like fear, like happiness, like excitement, achievement, like these are things that transpire across all different demographics and experiences.
angela_howard (23:45.708)
Like these are things that transpire across all different demographics and experiences. And I think that's when vulnerability becomes a bit of storytelling because when I tell a personal story about myself or I reveal something about myself, it's usually pointing to one of those human condition things and pointing back to emotions, which we all have. So I do think there is a...
garry_turner (23:58.306)
And I think that's when vulnerability becomes a bit of storytelling, because when I tell a personal story about myself or I reveal something about myself, it's usually pointing to one of those human condition things and pointing back to emotions, which we all have. So I do think there is a diversity, equity, and inclusion element to it, not just from a learning perspective, but also, and you mentioned this earlier, I think there's some
angela_howard (24:13.002)
a diversity, equity, and inclusion element to it, not just from a learning perspective, but also, you mentioned this earlier, I think there's some vulnerability in being able to say, yeah, I checked my LinkedIn network and I could do better. Or I can, there's things I need to unlearn that I didn't even know about, help me. And I've had a few really great connections, mentors even, who have asked me to mentor them.
garry_turner (24:28.26)
I checked my LinkedIn network and I could do better. Or I can, there's things I need to unlearn that I didn't even know about, help me. And I've had a few really great connections, mentors even, who have asked me to mentor them to say, because they're a white male and they're like.
angela_howard (24:41.834)
to say, you know, because they're a white male, and they're like, I need you to mentor me now, because I don't know. I need to hear if I'm being tone deaf. Give me feedback, and that is vulnerability too.
garry_turner (24:49.202)
I need you to mentor me now because I don't know. I need to hear if I'm being tone deaf. Give me feedback and that is vulnerability too. What a great example. What a great invitation for more of leaders to do the same. Because how, and how did you feel, if I may ask, how did you feel when those human beings approached you to seek your support? Were you surprised? Were you?
angela_howard (24:58.774)
What a great example. What a great invitation for more leaders to do the same. Because how did you feel, if I may ask, how did you feel when those...
human beings approached you to seek your support. Were you surprised? Were you excited? What's your reaction? I was honored that they trusted me enough and felt like that I wouldn't be judgmental because I do think there was a fear around being judged.
garry_turner (25:17.41)
Excited? What's your reaction?
garry_turner (25:22.27)
I was honored that they were, they trusted me enough and felt like, you know, that I wouldn't be judgmental because I do think there was a fear around being judged.
angela_howard (25:32.878)
And also I think you have to be cognizant that the emotional labor people of color are going through right now is real. So it has to be approached from a perspective of.
garry_turner (25:37.202)
And also I think you have to be cognizant that the emotional labor people of color are going through right now is real. So it has to be approached from a perspective of, you know, will you help me? Because I might not be in the brain space to do that today. Because I just watched the George Floyd trial and, uh,
angela_howard (25:46.154)
you know, will you help me? Because I might not be in the brain space to do that today. Because I just watched the George Floyd trial and you know, I'm exhausted or you know, something is happening societally that you know, may impact my energy around being able to give you advice and learning and unlearning. So I think you have to ask and I think you have to make sure the person you're asking can create space for that.
garry_turner (25:59.578)
you know, I'm exhausted or, you know, something, something that is happening societal, societally that, you know, may impact my energy around being able to give you advice and, uh, learning and unlearning. So I think, I think you have to ask, and I think you have to make sure the person you're asking can create space for that because it's, there's a lot of emotional turmoil right now, I think with people of color who want to help, but they also
angela_howard (26:16.588)
because there's a lot of emotional turmoil right now, I think with people of color who want to help, but they also don't wanna always be the one who's targeted to help, if that makes any sense. It makes huge sense, it's been one of my biggest learnings. Again, being vulnerable has been...
garry_turner (26:29.49)
don't want to always be the one who's targeted to help, if that makes any sense. It makes huge sense. It's been one of my biggest learnings. Again, being vulnerable has been, there's a lot of content out there, particularly now. There's a lot of great people like you doing great work. You're putting out podcasts every month. There's no excuse not to do some research, certainly in advance of asking someone kind like you to mentor them. So...
angela_howard (26:37.79)
There's a lot of content out there, particularly now there's a lot of great people like you doing great work. You know, you're putting out podcasts every month. You know, there's no excuse not to do some research, certainly in advance of asking, you know, someone kind like you to mentor them. So, no, it resonates a lot with me. Angela really resonates a lot.
garry_turner (26:59.374)
No, it resonates a lot with me. Angela, really resonates a lot. What do you think leaders can do, I guess, because I just want to get to action items, right? So we talked about a human-centric workplace. We talked about the importance of the human experience and how there's this mental block, this mental block to the business case around it. And then I think we kind of...
angela_howard (27:01.066)
And what do you think leaders can do, I guess, because I just want to get to action items, right? So we talked about a human-centric workplace. We talked about the importance of the human experience and how there is this mental block, this mental block to the business case around it.
And then I think we kind of steered into this idea of vulnerability and being a key characteristic. I also will add the word humble. I kind of put humble and vulnerability like kind of in the same category because you have to have like a sense of humility to, you have to have a...
garry_turner (27:28.626)
steered into this idea of vulnerability and being a key characteristic. I also will add the word humble. I kind of put humble and vulnerability like kind of in the same category because you have to have like a sense of humility to you have to have a the characteristic is humility. I think the
angela_howard (27:42.294)
The characteristic is humility. I think the state is vulnerability, if that makes sense. So humble leadership is really important, especially when it comes to exploring DE&I. So maybe just to close things out, do you have any thoughts on what are some actions?
garry_turner (27:51.454)
The state's vulnerability, if that makes sense. So humble leadership is really important, especially when it comes to exploring DE&I. So maybe just to close things out, do you have any thoughts on what are some actions that leaders can take to move forward?
angela_howard (28:04.234)
Because what are some actions that leaders can take to move towards this path that you've had the journey in? You were able to make this shift. What were some of the things that you did to move this way?
garry_turner (28:13.33)
towards this path that you've had the journey in, right? You were able to make this shift. What were some of the things that you did to move this way? So there's a few things that come to mind straight away. One is community. So not community just within your work organization, community outside, that's been a massive accelerant for my personal growth and understanding of the world and how it all joins up and how interdependent it all is. So that's my number one.
angela_howard (28:20.286)
So there's a few things that come to mind straight away. One is community. So not community just within your work organization, community outside, that's been a massive accelerant for my personal growth and understanding of the world and how it all joins up and how interdependent it all is. So that's my number one recommendation is be super intentional, A, around diversifying your network within your corporation, but also outside.
garry_turner (28:42.338)
recommendation is be super intentional around diversifying your network within your corporation, but also outside. It's been huge. So, so, so significant for me. So that's like almost on a personal level, but then there's the communities out there as well. So, you know, you've got LinkedIn groups, you've got different communities like, you know, hacking HR, humans first. Like there's so many different ones out there.
angela_howard (28:50.006)
it's been huge, so significant for me. So that's like almost on a personal level, but then there's communities out there as well. So you've got LinkedIn groups, you've got communities like hacking HR, humans first, like there's so many different ones out there. And I would invite people to practice that vulnerability muscle. So join communities.
garry_turner (29:09.402)
and I would invite people to practice that vulnerability muscle. So join communities, do peer to peer support. You know, there's so many people willing to be an accountability partner for you. I'm very open to doing that with one or two people. Should they be listening in and go, okay, great. There's this white guy that's talking about vulnerability. I could really do with, you know, someone to sort of like be there as I go on my journey. Like, I'd love to offer that support.
angela_howard (29:11.586)
Do peer to peer support. You know, there's so many people willing to be an accountability partner for you. I'm very open to doing that with one or two people. Should they be listening in and go, okay, great. There's this white guy that's talking about vulnerability. I can really.
garry_turner (29:38.51)
So that's another area and another big one, another huge one, Angela, is again, that's that creating the space, but how do we ensure that we are creating spaces, whether it's using external facilitators or internal, to share lived experience? That is a critical gap at the moment. So whether it's specifically linked to DEI, whether it's linked to understanding the skills that our colleagues have, you know, I work in an organisation, it's over three and a half billion turnover. Most people don't know each other's work histories.
How much of a gold mine are we sitting on if we just asked, you know, oh, what, you used to work at our competitor? Or, oh my God, you speak four languages? There's been so many examples, Angela, where we've lost staff because they wanted to make the most of their skills, they spoke three languages and they only used English within the business. So again, how do we make sure intentionally that we can understand each other at both a human level? So lived experience, what's your background, et cetera, but also
you know, even in a work context, you know, what are the skills, you know, what is your experience of work and how can we try and leverage your wholeness and not just the box that we put you in. So there are a couple of starting points and I think they're pretty actionable. Yeah, and I would also add, you know, to, you know, I think when we talk about systemic and systematic, you know, those two being two different things were very, very well
angela_howard (30:47.27)
Yeah, and I would also add, you know, to, you know, I think when we talk about systemic and systematic, you know, those two being two different things but very, very well connected and working together with each other, I think the other action is, you know, take a look at yourself but also...
garry_turner (31:06.694)
connected and working together with each other. I think the other action is take a look at yourself, but also things that have just been happening for decades and decades within your business that you need to question. And I think the more you learn, the more you see things for what they are.
angela_howard (31:10.966)
things that have just been happening for decades and decades within your business that you need to question. And I think the more you learn, the more you see things for what they are. Hiring practices, the way you evaluate people, are you being objective, are you hiring people who look and act like you because it's comfortable. I think that's kind of the self-reflection.
garry_turner (31:30.399)
the way you evaluate people, are you being objective, are you hiring people who look and act like you because it's comfortable. I think that's kind of the self reflection, the hard self reflection that leads to action. But it's also, it is being vulnerable because you're saying, I didn't see this before, and now I do. I'm blind.
angela_howard (31:37.37)
the hard self-reflection that leads to action. But it's also, it is being vulnerable because you're saying, I didn't see this before, and now I do.
I am blind and now I can see. And I think the more you learn, the more your eyes open, and the more you can be effective to be more inclusive and to combat exclusivity within your company. So that was just what I was thinking about when you were talking about some of your action items.
garry_turner (31:57.662)
see and I think the more you learn the more your eyes open and the more you can be effective to be more inclusive and to combat exclusivity within your company so that was just what I was thinking about when you were talking about some of your action items. Oh it's so good if I may offer one final thing as well Andrew if that's okay is it's really fun like it sounds scary being vulnerable it's actually one of the most freeing experiences I've ever managed to experience.
angela_howard (32:08.014)
Oh, it's so good. If I may offer one final thing as well, Andrew, if that's okay. Please. It's really fun. Like it sounds scary being vulnerable. It's actually one of the most freeing experiences I've ever managed to experience. The freedom of thinking, the freedom from fear, the freedom from what ifs.
garry_turner (32:27.686)
The freedom of thinking, the freedom from fear, the freedom from what ifs. Still have all those, still pop into those moments, of course, from time to time. But my default position now, as I've got much, much more comfortable practicing vulnerability, life opens up. As in your personal life completely opens up. So I wanna leave that, because this can feel quite heavy and like, oh my God, there's so much treacle to walk through. And there is treacle to walk through. But it's also a lot of fun getting there.
angela_howard (32:29.078)
I still have all those, I still pop into those moments, of course, from time to time. But my default position now, as I've got much, much more comfortable practicing vulnerability...
life opens up as in your personal life completely opens up so I want to leave that because this can feel quite heavy and like oh my god there's so much prequel to walk through and there is prequel to walk through but it's also a lot of fun getting there once you actually start to practice this and start to experience it more often. It's so freeing and I think you also feel more authentic like that's what's been most impactful for me is if I'm able to be vulnerable
garry_turner (32:56.694)
once you actually start to practice this and start to experience it more often. It's so freeing and I think you also feel more authentic. That's what's been most impactful for me is if I'm able to be vulnerable, I'm being myself. It's when I'm trying to fit in and all that when I'm not being authentic and that's not vulnerable, that's just you riding the waves, right? And...
angela_howard (33:09.032)
and I'm trying to fit in and all of that when I'm not being authentic and that's not vulnerable. That's just you riding the waves, right? And just it's such an enrichment for me because there's no fear.
garry_turner (33:23.966)
It's such an enrichment for me because there's no fear and there's just authenticity. So I think that's another benefit and that ties to things like belonging and diversity, equity, inclusion as well is allowing people to be themselves and to be vulnerable without repercussions of that. So totally agree with you.
angela_howard (33:24.986)
And there's just authenticity. So I think that's another benefit. And that ties to things like belonging and diversity, equity, inclusion as well, is allowing people to be themselves and to be vulnerable without repercussions of that. So totally agree with you.
Well, like I said, this could be like a four part series and I would love to have you back, but I'm just so grateful that you joined, Gary, and talked to us about the whole human and the idea of vulnerability and how we need to change the definition of the dictionary. I'm on a crusade now. I'm gonna change the definition of vulnerability in the dictionary, because it's not correct. So thank you, Gary, so much. Anything else you wanna mention before we close out?
garry_turner (33:47.823)
Well, I, like I said, this could be like a four part series and I would love to have you back.
I'm just so grateful that you joined Gary and talked to us about the whole human and the idea of vulnerability and how we need to change the definition of dictionary. I'm on a crusade now. I'm gonna change the definition of vulnerability in the dictionary because it's not correct. So thank you, Gary, so much. Anything else you wanna mention before we close out? No, just thank you for all the work you're doing.
angela_howard (34:12.606)
No, just thank you for all the work you're doing. You know, you've just put out such an amazing energy around everything you're doing, Angela, and it's so appreciated, I enjoy it. Enjoy watching you soar, to be honest. So I'm just grateful that you're in my network. So thank you. Same, grateful to have you in my network too, Gary, and we'll have you back soon. Thanks a lot. Thank you.
garry_turner (34:19.834)
You know, you've just put out such an amazing energy around everything you're doing, Angela, and it's so appreciated. I enjoy watching you soar, to be honest. So I'm just grateful that you're in my network. So thank you. Same, grateful to have you in my network too, Gary. And we'll have you back soon. Thanks a lot. Thank you.
