"Good Enough" with Frank Cottle

Nov 3

Written By Angela R Howard

angela_howard (00:01.434)

Hello, Frank, and welcome to Humanly Possible. I'm so excited to have you on. Thank you for joining us.

frank_cottle (00:07.714)

Well, Angela, thank you for allowing me to participate. It's my pleasure.

angela_howard (00:12.034)

Yes, it's our honor and would love for you to just open up with a quick introduction, who you are, what you do and what makes you human.

frank_cottle (00:22.657)

Well, I'm...

I'm Frank Cottle. I'm the chairman and CEO of the Alliance Group of Companies. We're in the flexible workspace industry. And that means as an industry we combine people, place, and technology into a single bundled product and we deliver it as a subscription or in a highly flexible service agreement. So everything that you need to work combined into a single product.

angela_howard (00:25.254)

chairman and CEO of the Alliance group of companies. We're in the flexible workspace industry. And that means as an industry, we combine people, place, and technology into a single bundled product, and we deliver it as a subscription or in a highly flexible service agreement. So everything that you need to work combined into a single product.

frank_cottle (00:53.494)

angela_howard (00:54.15)

We work globally. We have facilities in 54 countries. And we serve everybody from the largest governments, such as the United States, on down to startups and everybody in between. We've been doing this for 42 years now. Wonderful. So way before all these buzzwords came into play, right? Like, hybrid working and... We've been doing this for 42 years now. And we serve everybody from the largest governments, such as the United States, on down to startups and everybody in between. We've been doing this for 42 years now. Wonderful. So way before all these buzzwords came into play, right? Like, hybrid working and... We've been doing this for 42 years now. And we serve everybody from the largest governments, such as the United States, on down to startups and everybody in between. We've been doing this for 42 years now. Wonderful. So way before all these buzz

frank_cottle (01:16.907)

Oh yeah, we actually created a lot of those buzzwords. We created the term virtual office as an example. So we've been around a while for sure.

angela_howard (01:30.138)

That's wonderful. Well, thank you for joining. And oh, and what makes you human? Forgot that one. What makes me human? Boy, you get a dramatic pause here. Yeah.

frank_cottle (01:36.126)

What makes me human? Boy, that's a, you get a dramatic pause here. I know my wife, my wife makes me human. We've been together since 1969.

angela_howard (01:47.898)

1969 and she keeps me very centered. She's a very intelligent and insightful person and she shows me a lot of things that I should know but I didn't really look at properly. Not in a negative way but she does help me to understand a lot of things in life.

frank_cottle (01:49.358)

And she keeps me very centered. She's a very intelligent and insightful person. And she shows me a lot of things that I should know, but I didn't really look at properly, not, not in a negative way, but she does help me to understand a lot of, a lot of things in life.

angela_howard (02:10.43)

I love that. I love that. I am. Well, you always need that. They aim to your knee. They aim to your yang, right? And it's funny because my husband kind of serves a similar, similar purpose. You know, calling me out when I need it, challenging me. So that's a blessing to have. I don't know whether I call it the end of my year. Jerk to my chain.

frank_cottle (02:27.558)

Yeah, I don't know whether I'd call her the yin to my yang or the jerk to my chain. But, you know, we can go on from there with that.

angela_howard (02:35.838)

Yes, there's so many analogies we could use. Well, thank you for sharing that, Frank. And the premise of this podcast, as you know, as others know, is around how do we make workplaces more human. And so I'm just curious to know.

frank_cottle (02:51.082)

Mm-hmm.

angela_howard (02:55.534)

you know, what trends you're seeing in the space. We're in a very pivotal point, I think, with the next generation of work. But what are some key things that you're finding as you're talking to some of the organizations and clients you're working with? Well, I think you used to work pivotal.

frank_cottle (03:08.13)

Well, I think you used the word pivotal and I hear that a lot and I don't, I honestly, I don't think that's correct. I think we, the change that we're going through is a change that's been building up for decades and we happen to have been trying to do it perfectly. And you've heard the old saying, don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Well,

angela_howard (03:18.106)

The change that we're going through is a change that's been building up for decades.

angela_howard (03:27.478)

to do it perfectly. You've heard the old saying, don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Well, COVID came along and all of a sudden we just had to be good. Right, just had to do it. But before that...

frank_cottle (03:35.03)

COVID came along and all of a sudden we just had to be good. We didn't have to be perfect. But before that, everyone was evolving. Going back in 16, 17, 18, 19, all large corporations had a huge battle for talent.

angela_howard (03:47.066)

16, 17, 18, 19, all large corporations had a huge...

frank_cottle (03:55.378)

And part of the way that they were winning that battle or attempting to was by having a flexible workplace program in place because honestly if you're a tech company, you can't get a good engineer if you say, oh yeah, come work for us, we'll pay a bunch of money. Oh, by the way, you have to commute an hour and a half on a train each way to get to the office. And you have to be in the office at eight o'clock because we're gonna have a meeting of 30 people. That engineer just gonna laugh and say,

angela_howard (03:57.678)

were winning that battle or attempting to was by having a flexible workplace program in place because honestly if you're a tech company you can't get a good engineer if you say oh yeah you know come work for us we'll pay a bunch of money oh by the way you have to commute an hour and a half on a train each way to get to the office and you have to be in the office at eight o'clock because we're gonna have a meeting of 30 people that engineer just gonna laugh and say forget it

frank_cottle (04:25.332)

you and they don't have to. So the war for talent had already defined a need for extreme flexibility in the workplace and people were trying to do it perfect, the perfect plan, the perfect everything and then COVID came along and they just got kicked right over the threshold of good and they said oh everybody go home we'll sort this out.

angela_howard (04:28.246)

So the war for talent had already defined a need for extreme flexibility in the workplace. And people were trying to do it perfect. The perfect plan, the perfect everything. And then COVID came along and they just got kicked right over the threshold of good. And they said, oh, everybody go home. We'll sort this out. And now we've been home long enough.

frank_cottle (04:54.05)

And now we've been home long enough to where we're not pivoting, we're just not going back. We're not going back in the same way. It's not a pivot where you're turning around. It's just you're still going forward but in a little different way. And everybody talks about the new normal. What's the new normal going to be? Well, if it's new, it can't be normal.

angela_howard (05:00.518)

pivoting, we're just not going back. We're not going back in the same way. It's not a pivot where you're turning around. It's just you're still going forward, but in a little different way. And everybody talks about the new normal. What's the new normal going to be? Well, if it's new, it can't be normal. If it's normal, it's not new.

frank_cottle (05:22.794)

If it's normal, it's not new. So really what we're doing is we're just progressing in a positive fashion to do what you're so focused on, help everybody be a little more human. It's not human to commute in a dirty train an hour and a half to get to a high rise office.

angela_howard (05:26.686)

So really what we're doing is we're just progressing in a positive fashion to do what you're so focused on, help everybody be a little more human. It's not human to commute in a dirty train an hour and a half to get to a high rise office that's not built on a human scale in a high density environment, work in a hermetically sealed room with

frank_cottle (05:45.986)

that's not built on a human scale in a high density environment, work in a hermetically sealed room with artificial air conditioning for eight or 10 hours under fluorescent lights and then go home. That's not human. Okay. Human is riding your bike down the road to something

angela_howard (05:56.098)

artificial air conditioning for eight or ten hours under fluorescent lights and then go home. That's not human. Totally agree with you. Riding your bike down the road to something place that's close enough to come home for lunch if you want to where your commute is in nature. On a sidewalk, on a roadway, on a bike path.

frank_cottle (06:10.562)

place that's close enough to come home for lunch if you want to where your commute is in nature, on the sidewalk, on the roadway, on a bike path, those things are human.

angela_howard (06:25.45)

things are human. So there will be a lot of adjustment made particularly in high density markets that are full of public transportation, reliant upon public transportation to import the workforce to the city and then exported at night back to the neighborhood. We're going to see a lot of change in structure around cities and around the way people work.

frank_cottle (06:27.274)

So there will be a lot of adjustment made, particularly in high density markets that are full of public transportation, reliant upon public transportation to import the workforce to the city and then export it at night back to the neighborhood. We're going to see a lot of change in structure around cities and around the way people work.

just because we've now gotten used to what is normal.

angela_howard (06:57.103)

because we've now gotten used to what is normal. Right. And it's interesting because it feels like, and tell me if you agree with this, it feels like the social contract has been changed a little bit. I don't know, I feel like the, now that people have gotten the taste.

right, of working from home or working in a flexible environment, do you feel like there's been a social contract revelation, I guess, with workers to say, you know, I know what this is now and it works for me and I don't want to go back to that normal you were talking about? I think social contract is a good term to use for the change that is going on, the adjustments that we're making. And-

frank_cottle (07:28.598)

Yeah, I think social contract is a good.

term to use for the change that is going on, the adjustments that we're making. And I don't think it's overly radical. I think there's always been underpinnings. Every employer seeks to provide a good environment that's creative and productive for their employees. And every employee seeks to be productive and do the best they can at their job.

angela_howard (07:42.218)

I don't think it's overly radical. I think there's always been underpinnings. Every employer seeks to provide a good environment that's creative and productive for their employees. And every employee seeks to be productive and do the best they can at their job. So that contract, which is the creative, which creates the value structure.

frank_cottle (08:03.906)

So that contract which is the create, which creates the value structure is not changing. It's just how we go about defining each of those things that is the change really. And I think it has come almost as an epiphany to a lot of people that, wait.

angela_howard (08:11.23)

is not changing. It's just how we go about defining each of those things that is the change really. Got it. Yeah. And I think it has come almost as an epiphany to a lot of people that, wait, I don't have to do what I did yesterday to be more productive tomorrow.

frank_cottle (08:30.45)

I don't have to do what I did yesterday to be more productive tomorrow. I can actually be more productive by doing something different. And so there's been this massive epiphany that's rippling through, we call it the pebble effect. You drop a pebble in a pond somewhere.

angela_howard (08:36.53)

I can actually be more productive by doing something different. And so there's been this massive epiphany that's rippling through, we call it the pebble effect. You drop a pebble in a pond somewhere. And depending on the shape of the pond and how the shoreline of the pond.

frank_cottle (08:51.998)

And depending on the shape of the pond and how the shoreline of the pond, the waves from that pedal break at different places at different times with different intensities. And COVID was a pebble in a pond for business and for many of us, just in life in general. And how we're reacting to it is different speed, intensity, et cetera. But we're all reacting to that pebble.

angela_howard (08:57.414)

the waves from that pedal break at different places, at different times with different intensities. And COVID was a pebble in a pond for business and for many of us just in life in general. And how we're reacting to it is different, speed, intensity, et cetera. But we're all reacting to that. Yes.

And how do you, and I just think about the pebble in the pond is a great visual, I love that analogy. But they're gonna, what I'm noticing is some companies or organizations are moving more quickly towards this.

you know, epiphany, let's call it, this realization that things can be done differently. Do you, first of all, do you think we're gonna have a group of companies that just don't get on board? And what do you think is gonna happen to those companies?

frank_cottle (09:49.458)

Oh, of course, of course. Absolutely, but what's on board mean? If their model is successful for them, and that'll be judged by their employees because they'll choose to work there or not, then they are on board. Everybody doesn't have to work, this is not a marching band.

angela_howard (09:55.29)

Providing flexibility. If their model is successful for them, and that'll be judged by their employees because they'll choose to work there or not, then they are on board. You know, everybody doesn't have to work, this is not a marching band. You know, we don't have to work in...

frank_cottle (10:16.93)

You know, we don't have to work in completely synchronized fashion playing exactly the same tune. This is more like a jam fest, where you know, you're going to pick up a riff and I'm going to hit the drums and then somebody else is going to slide in with a tune. This is more like a jam fest than a marching band. We have to look at it that way because companies are as individual as the people that work within them are.

angela_howard (10:20.35)

synchronized fashion playing exactly the same tune. This is more like a jam fest where you know you're gonna you're gonna pick up a riff and I'm gonna hit the drums and then somebody else is gonna slide in with a tune. This is more like a jam fest than a marching band. We have to look at it that way because companies are as individual as the people that work within them are.

frank_cottle (10:45.87)

And everybody says, well, my concern right now is around maintaining my company culture. We have, we, we don't have to be in the same room at the same time in a circle, singing kumbaya together, or we don't have a culture. And I look at that kind of laugh a little bit, cause I never knew the whole words to kumbaya by the way. Uh, and I look at that and I go, well,

angela_howard (10:47.246)

Everybody says, well, my concern right now is around maintaining my company culture. We don't have to be in the same room at the same time in a circle singing kumbaya together, or we don't have a culture. And I look at that.

angela_howard (11:09.322)

Let's try it. No, I'm just kidding.

frank_cottle (11:12.078)

you do have a company culture. Sadly, it's just the wrong one. And people are gonna get up from that circle and they're gonna walk away and join some other group that's not singing in a circle, but it's having a jam fest that lets people be outstanding doing what they're doing regardless of what instrument they're playing, regardless of where they're sitting in the organization overall. And...

angela_howard (11:14.199)

Sadly, it just...

It's an office culture, right?

angela_howard (11:30.074)

be outstanding doing what they're doing regardless of what instrument they're playing, regardless of where they're sitting in the organization overall. We will be evolving that way. We are evolving that way. You're a behavioral psychologist, so I'll ask you a question. Yeah, please. Let's pretend that I have a substance abuse problem. Okay?

frank_cottle (11:40.706)

It just, we will be evolving that way. We are evolving that way. And you're a behavioral psychologist, so I'll ask you a question. Let's pretend that I have a substance abuse problem.

Okay, you're already going, oh, he's going someplace strange. But let's, let's pretend I have a substance abuse problem. And on January 1st of 2020, you and I got together and you explained this to me. And you said, Frank, you have a substance abuse problem. Here's what you need to do to get over your substance abuse problem. Okay. And what's the date today?

angela_howard (11:58.894)

You're already going, oh, he's going someplace. Let's pretend I have a substance abuse problem. And on January 1st of 2020, you and I got together and you explained this to me and you said, Frank, you have a substance abuse problem. Here's what you need to do to get over your substance abuse problem. OK, what's the date today? Today is July.

9th 2021. 2021 so for 18 months I have dealt with my substance abuse problem.

frank_cottle (12:29.07)

2021. So for 18 months, I have dealt with my substance abuse problem. I haven't gone back to my bad habit. I have changed my life habits for 18 months. What's the percentage of recidivism to substance abuse after 18 months of...

angela_howard (12:43.374)

changed my life habits for 18 months. What's the percentage of recidivism to substance abuse after 18 months of not participating in that problem? Oh, that's a- 10%, 10%? I would say- Very, very low. Exactly. Very, very low. And so we as-

frank_cottle (12:57.126)

not participating in that problem. 5%, 10%? It's very, very low. Very, very low. And so we, as, as a, all of society or all of society in the Western world that we see in the working environment, at least, we have changed our habit for 18 months and we

angela_howard (13:09.942)

as a society or all of society in the western world that we see in the working environment we have changed our habit for eighteen months and we still haven't unchanged that habit yet because we're evolving.

frank_cottle (13:22.85)

We still haven't unchanged that habit yet because we're evolving it. Okay, so using the substance abuse thing, probably a terrible analogy to stick on, but it's like, okay, I was an alcoholic, I've stopped drinking for 18 months, but I've decided from now on, on Saturday evenings, I am going to have a glass of wine with my wife for dinner. That's okay.

angela_howard (13:29.318)

Okay, so using the substance abuse thing, a probably terrible analogy to stick on, but it's like, okay, I was an alcoholic, I've stopped drinking for 18 months, but I've decided from now on, on Saturday evenings, I am gonna have a glass of wine with me.

frank_cottle (13:52.366)

I'm in control. Everything's worked. So I've changed my habits and now I'm deciding what further change I'm going to have that balances out my life the way I've really decided objectively I wanted to lead it. Well, that's what companies have to do. And that's what the individuals that work for companies. And you've heard of the great resignation. 41% of all employees within knowledge working companies and tech companies have said,

angela_howard (13:53.008)

and that's what the individuals that work for companies and you've heard of the great resignation 41% of all employees within knowledge working companies and tech companies have said they will leave their job before they go back to doing it the way they did it before now the reality is

frank_cottle (14:20.13)

they will leave their job before they go back to doing it the way they did it before. Now the reality is, that's easy to say in a survey, it's hard to do, and when you're staring at your family and you have to make your house payment. So, you know, 40% will become 20% real fast, you know. It's like, oh yeah, okay, you're fired. I didn't mean it, boss. You know, you run into a lot of that, but even 20%...

of a major workforce group making a statement that strong when there's already a battle for talent going on. Companies have to listen to their customers, they have to listen to their suppliers, they sure as heck better listen to the people that are running the company, because this isn't just people on a factory floor.

angela_howard (14:57.018)

when there's already a battle for talent going on, companies have to listen to their customers, they have to listen to their suppliers, they sure as heck better listen to the people that are running the company, because this isn't just people on a factory floor, this is people top to bottom, this is the creators within the companies that are saying this, the people that design the product.

frank_cottle (15:17.762)

This is people top to bottom. This is the creators within the companies that are saying this, the people that design the products. And if you don't have new product design, you don't have a company. So I think the issue then is how far do you go? Does everybody work anywhere, anytime, anyplace without any deference to any organizational structure whatsoever? And that won't work. That wouldn't work very well at all.

angela_howard (15:27.49)

And if you don't have new product design, you don't have a company. So, I think the issue then is, how far do you go? Does everybody work anywhere, anytime, any place, without any difference to any organizational structure whatsoever? And that won't work.

frank_cottle (15:48.306)

So it's how far do you go and I think you go as far as is necessary to continue to be productive and Pay attention to as you use the thing the human side of things Which says I don't want to get in the dirty train anymore I don't want to sit in Giant meetings that aren't productive Have learned to use technology for meetings

angela_howard (15:48.922)

So it's how far do you go? And I think you go as far as is necessary to continue to be productive and pay attention to as you use the thing, the human side of things, which says, I don't want to get in the dirty train anymore. I don't want to sit in giant meetings that aren't productive. I have learned to use technology for meetings.

frank_cottle (16:16.118)

You're in the Chicagoland, I'm in Newport Beach. Does it really matter? No. My chief marketing officer is in Lexington, Kentucky. My chief operating officer for our company is in Monterey, Mexico. My chief financial officer is in Las Vegas. My head of finance is also in Las Vegas. Coincidence only. My head of business operations overseas is in Amsterdam. It doesn't matter where we are.

angela_howard (16:16.718)

you're in the chicagoland i'm in the port beach doesn't really matter uh... my chief marketing officer is elected to kentucky my chief operating officer for our companies in monterey mexico my chief financial officer is in las vegas my head of finance is also in las vegas coincidence only uh... my head of business operations uh... overseas is in amsterdam it doesn't matter where we are

frank_cottle (16:46.602)

We get the best people and then, to your point again, we say, what's the least disruptive to them and their family? Well, our fellow in Kentucky, he happens to like farms and horses. Can you imagine what it would cost me to move him to Newport Beach, where he could probably have a small condo for the cost of a nice farm in Kentucky? How happy would his family be? Not at all.

angela_howard (16:47.206)

We get the best people and then to your point again, we say, what's the least disruptive to them and their family? Well, our fellow in Kentucky, he happens to like farms and horses. Can you imagine what it would cost me to move him to Newport Beach where he would probably have a small condo for the cost of an ice farm in Kentucky?

How happy would his family be? Right. Not at all. So it's going to cost me a lot of money, be very disruptive to his family, make hurt his marriage, certainly disrupt his children's education, just so he can become part of my culture.

frank_cottle (17:15.874)

So it's going to cost me a lot of money, be very disruptive to his family, maybe hurt his marriage, certainly disrupt his children's education, just so he can become part of my culture. Sit in a meeting face to face, that's the silliest thing I've ever heard.

angela_howard (17:30.006)

sit in a meeting face to face. That's the silliest thing I've ever heard. And culture is, I mean, you bring up a great point. I think there is this concept of office culture. I think about the office. I literally think about the show, The Office, and the cheesiness behind some of the concepts of office culture. And at the end of the day, you've got team members who are like, you know what? I don't want to go to that. I'd rather go home to my family than go to that happy hour.

kids then go to that golfing event or that retreat. And so I think there's a disconnect there and maybe just a lack of listening to your point around what are the preferences, what are the choices we can give people that are going to increase their quality of life. Well, you know, you use the term happy hour. And let's define why you have happy hour between five and six.

frank_cottle (18:18.806)

Well, you know, you use the term happy hour. And let's define why you have happy hour between 5 and 6. It's because you had unhappy eight hours beforehand.

angela_howard (18:30.338)

It's because you had unhappy eight hours beforehand. It's a brilliant point, Frank. OK. So just a little bit of a

frank_cottle (18:36.634)

Okay, so, you know, just the fact that you have to get together after work to detox from what you've been doing all day, it's a sad, sad thing. You know, you should be all coming out of the office going, yeah, man, I had such a great day today. I did all these cool things. I created this stuff. I got a bunch of things done. I feel real productive. Now I'm going to go home and share that feeling with my family. Okay.

angela_howard (18:44.166)

detox from what you've been doing all day. It's a sad, sad thing. That is sad. You know, you should be all coming out of the office going, Yeah, man! I had such a great day today. I did all these cool things. I created this stuff. I got a bunch of things done. I feel real productive. Now I'm going to go home and share that feeling with my family. Okay? And you should be able to do that.

frank_cottle (19:06.518)

You should be able to do that, not having to rush to get a train, rush to get on a subway, rush to do all sorts of things, but be able to go down the street in your town where you live and maybe live in midtown, but you should be able to live and work in the same place. If you can't live and work in the same place, then you have the wrong job or you have the wrong motivations.

angela_howard (19:09.69)

having to rush to get a train, rush to get on a subway, rush to do all sorts of things, but be able to go down the street in your town where you live, and maybe live in midtown, but you should be able to live and work in the same place. If you can't live and work in the same place, then you have the wrong job or you have the wrong motivations overall.

frank_cottle (19:36.624)

overall in my opinion.

angela_howard (19:40.586)

So what do you say to the leader or the founder or the executive who you mentioned earlier the, you know, what's going to happen to culture if we're all not in the same place physically? What are some things that, I mean, you've been in this business for a long time, so you've seen facts, figures, stats on why that's not the fact. So what do you say to somebody who truly believes that?

frank_cottle (20:07.074)

Well, number one, I'm a future of work person. I'm kind of a futurist as an individual. So I look at those people and I just kind of laugh at them and say, well, you'll stay there and everybody else will move forward. So I don't even have to talk to you because you won't be in the future. OK, so there's a certain.

angela_howard (20:11.174)

future of work person. I'm a kind of a futurist as an individual.

angela_howard (20:19.966)

stay there and everybody else have moved forward so I don't have to talk to you because you won't be in the future. So there's a certain arrogance on my part when I look at situations like that that's probably misplaced but that's the way I feel often times. People that resist change generally aren't around for a long time.

frank_cottle (20:29.234)

arrogance on my part when I look at situations like that that's probably misplaced, but that's the way I feel oftentimes. People that resist change generally aren't around for a long time. Now

angela_howard (20:49.378)

Now, there is a reality in certain industries, in certain circumstances, where bringing a group together for creative purposes is good. The question is, do you have to do it every day, all day long? Purposeful. Purposeful meeting. So I would say no, that that's actually an uncreative structure, because it becomes normalized. And then,

frank_cottle (20:49.486)

There is a reality in certain industries, in certain circumstances where bringing a group together for creative purposes is good. The question is, do you have to do it every day, all day long? So I would say no, that that's actually an uncreative structure because it becomes normalized and then trivialized overall.

So I would just say to people, you know, if you want to hire the best people to that CEO, if you want to hire the best people and you want them to work for you for a long life cycle and to be their most productive, then you have to allow them to work in an environment that encourages that and it's not necessarily group think.

angela_howard (21:16.154)

frank_cottle (21:38.67)

Groupthink is not your most productive environment. Name me any great artist, any great performer, any great inventor that went to meetings all day long, that commuted to work. Okay? Just one, just one. Okay? Do you think Elon Musk, let's take Elon Musk as an example, do you think Elon Musk commutes?

angela_howard (21:42.726)

And they meet any great artist, any great performer, any great inventor that went to meetings all day long. True, true story. Right? Okay. Just one. I cannot give you one. Okay. Do you think Elon Musk, let's take Elon Musk as an example. Do you think Elon Musk commutes from his home to his office and... I don't know.

frank_cottle (22:08.806)

from his home to his office and back and forth every day? Or do you think he kind of lives in his office sometimes and works from his house sometimes and works on the road sometimes and does different things? We all would all recognize he's a pretty creative fellow. Do you think Richard Branson sits around, goes to his office every day and commutes to get there and sits in his?

angela_howard (22:14.37)

or do you think he kind of lives in his office sometimes and works from his house sometimes and works on the road sometimes and does different things? We all would all recognize he's a pretty creative fellow. Do you think Richard Branson sits around, goes to his office every day and commutes to get there and sits in his big high-rise office or does he work half the time from his house and half the time on the road?

frank_cottle (22:35.094)

big high rise office or does he work half the time from his house and half the time on the road and half the time in meetings with people, virtual and otherwise? And how about Bill Gates? Pick any hyper successful corporate leader such as you're talking about that run these large corporations. When you look at the most creative of them, go do a top 10 survey or something.

angela_howard (22:41.062)

time in meetings with people, virtual and otherwise, and I'm like, Bill Gates. Pick any hyper successful corporate leader such as you're talking about that run these large corporations, when you look at the most creative of them, go do a top ten survey or something, I think you'll find that most of them work out of their house or out of an alternative workplace the great majority of the time.

frank_cottle (23:02.142)

And I think you'll find that most of them work out of their house or out of an alternative workplace the great majority of the time. Sure didn't hurt Bill Gates. Sure didn't hurt Elon Musk. Let's not talk about Richard Branson's lovely home in Mustique in the Caribbean. You know, it's silly to expect others to do that when you haven't done it yourself. When that's not been your own path to success.

angela_howard (23:10.022)

Sure didn't hurt Bill Gates. Sure didn't hurt Elon Musk. Let's not talk about Richard Branson's lovely home in Mustique in the Caribbean. It's silly to expect others to do that when you haven't done it yourself, when that's not been your own path to success. That's a wonderful point. So if culture is not office culture, what is culture? What makes it?

frank_cottle (23:36.334)

I think culture is bringing together people's desire to be productive as a team. It's accomplishing something together.

angela_howard (23:39.19)

What makes a good culture?

frank_cottle (23:50.826)

And you can have that same feeling and accomplishment whether you're remote or whether you're all in the room or whether it's a mixture of the above. The key is what are you setting out to do and are you doing it and are you doing it well?

angela_howard (24:02.042)

The key is what are you setting out to do and are you doing it? And are you doing it well? If your culture is around your productivity as teens, then your differences should be some of your strengths. There's lots of discussion these days about differences and diversity and things of that nature.

frank_cottle (24:09.75)

If your culture is around your productivity as teams, then your differences should be some of your strengths. There's lots of discussion these days about differences and diversity and things of that nature. Those should be your strengths.

angela_howard (24:28.73)

those should be your strengths. Yes. Overall. And I'll use our own company. Years ago, we set out to create a service company that

frank_cottle (24:30.53)

overall. And I'll use our own company. Years ago we set out to create a service company that would have a variety of business center and co-working type center facilities in it or tied to it now. And we had an interesting thing. I was in Chennai in India and one of our facilities there is a five-star facility.

angela_howard (24:45.414)

working type center facilities in it or tied to it now. And we had an interesting thing. I was in I was in Chennai in India and one of our facilities there is a five-star facility.

frank_cottle (25:00.922)

And we had the whole building and at the ground level of the building we were in a conference in a meeting room and a cow walked in off the street because it was an open lobby, walked in off the street and looked around for a moment, left a little cow present in the middle of the lobby and then wandered away.

angela_howard (25:06.954)

in a meeting room and a cow walked in off the street because it was an open lobby, walked in off the street and looked around for a moment, left a little cow present in the middle of the lobby and then wandered away. Well that was a five star facility in Chennai, India.

frank_cottle (25:27.042)

Well that was a five-star facility in Chennai, India. That same cow would not have wandered into a five-star facility in London or New York. Okay. So it came down to us, we said, you know, we can have a variety of locations and facilities and standards, but we can only have one standard of service.

angela_howard (25:33.274)

That same cow would not have wandered into a five-star facility in London or New York. Okay? Mm. So, it came down to us, we said, you know, we can have a variety of locations and facilities and standards, but we can only have one standard of service. Mm. So, we built a culture not around facilities, Yeah. and big brands on the wall.

frank_cottle (25:52.43)

So we built a culture not around facilities and big brands on the wall and everybody wears the same color and we always sing the song and hey, have you memorized the mission statement? Who cares? We built a culture around service. Okay, and so if we're good at service, we'll make sales.

angela_howard (26:00.334)

everybody wears the same color and we all sing the song and hey have you memorized the mission statement? Who cares? We built a culture around service. Okay and so if we're good at service we'll make sales.

frank_cottle (26:18.79)

and all of our internal services within the company service our sales department. So it's sales to service and sales from service. Overall that's our culture and that's what people thrive on because when you're serving well, there's a satisfaction to it.

angela_howard (26:20.97)

internal services within the company service our sales department. So it's sales to service and sales from service. Overall that's our culture and that's what people thrive on because when you're serving well, there's a satisfaction to it. I did something really good for Angela today. It helped Angela with her business. I helped Angela grow her business today.

frank_cottle (26:39.99)

I did something really good for Angela today. It helped Angela with her business. I helped Angela grow her business today. You know, I should feel pretty proud of myself. It's very simple. And we don't have to be in the same room to do that. We have a sales center for North America that happens to be in Monterrey, Mexico.

angela_howard (26:49.306)

I should feel pretty proud of myself. Absolutely. It's very simple. And we don't have to be in the same room to do that. We have a sales center for North America that happens to be in Monterey, Mexico. And we've built it down there about 15, 18 years ago, I guess, when we started it down there. And we built it down there just because.

frank_cottle (27:04.73)

And we've built it down there about 15, 18 years ago, I guess, when we started it down there. And we built it down there just because.

That's where our head of operations happened to be from with his family. So we thought, well, why don't we build it Monterey? Why don't we make Toshi move up here? Forget it. We'll just start building down there. And so we did. Uh, and overall, we outperform every competitor who's physically in their own facilities on site in the U S.

angela_howard (27:13.402)

That's where our head of operations happened to be from with his family. So we thought, Oh, why don't we build a monorail? Why would we make Toshi move up here? I don't forget it. We'll start building up there. And so we did. And overall, we outperform every competitor who's physically in their own facilities on site in the US. OK, our team is better providing service.

frank_cottle (27:36.786)

Okay, our team is better providing service than the people that are actually in their own facilities, directly nose to nose with the customer. Our people are two to 3,000 miles away from the customer, and yet our retention, our service rates, our return customers are much higher than at the local levels. And it's that culture of service. So it can be done anywhere. It should be done everywhere.

angela_howard (27:42.15)

than the people that are actually in their own facilities directly nose to nose with the customer. Our people are two to three thousand miles away from the customer, and yet our retention, our service rates, our return customers are much higher.

and it's that culture of service. So it can be done anywhere, it should be done everywhere, and that's where your cultures should come from. It's not based on a building with your name on the side of the building that's really a monument to yourself. That's meaningless, and it will become much more meaningless in the future because as people do work remotely.

frank_cottle (28:05.83)

and that's where your cultures should come from. It's not based on a building with your name on the side of the building that's really a monument to yourself. That's meaningless and it will become much more meaningless in the future because as people do work remotely...

Think of New York for a minute or you're from Chicago. Let's visualize Chicago, visualize the Chicago skyline, all those buildings. Let's send everybody home one day a week. It's a 20% vacancy factor. Let's send them home two days a week, which is getting into the hybrid workplace. It's a 40% vacancy factor. What are we gonna do with all that space? No, I know what we're gonna do with all that space. We're gonna turn it into residential space.

angela_howard (28:27.078)

Think of New York for a minute or you're from Chicago. Let's visualize Chicago, visualize the Chicago skyline, all those buildings. Let's send everybody home one day a week. It's a 20% vacancy factor. Yeah. Let's send them home two days a week, which is getting into the hybrid workplace. A 40% vacancy factor. What are we gonna do with all that space? And all that money. Okay. You can give back. No, I don't know what we're gonna do with all that space. We're gonna turn it into residential space.

frank_cottle (28:56.15)

so people don't have to commute to Chicago, they can actually work there. Because the cost of residential will go down. Cities will be reshaped tremendously as a result of this. More people that live in the city will work in the city because you're gonna have a complete change and repurposing of a lot of commercial real estate. And that's a very good thing. It won't devalue the real estate, it will just repurpose it.

angela_howard (28:58.026)

Chicago they can actually work there because the cost of residential will go down. Cities will be reshaped tremendously.

people that live in the city will work in the city because you're going to have a complete change and repurposing of a lot of commercial real estate. And that's a very good thing. It won't devalue the real estate, it will just repurpose it.

frank_cottle (29:21.402)

and make the cities actually more vibrant. You've heard the old thing, oh great city, yeah they roll up the sidewalks at six o'clock. You know, that city is closed at six o'clock. Well, it's closed because people don't live there. They don't live where they work. If they do live where they work, then you'll have a whole new vibrance and a whole new vitality in center cities.

angela_howard (29:22.026)

and make the cities actually more vibrant. You hear the old saying, oh great city, yeah they roll up the sidewalks at six o'clock. You know, that city is closed at six o'clock. Well, it's closed because people don't live there. They don't live where they were. If they do live where they were, then you'll have a whole new vibrance and a whole new vitality in Center City.

I love the connection to, I mean we talked about quality of life, we talked about real estate, I mean there's such, you talk about that pebble again, right? There's so many ripples I think this change is going to impact for humankind in general. So it's very exciting and it's also a big change. So there's a big I think people readiness component to it. I know you and I talked about this earlier.

But anything else that you want to mention, just to kind of wrap up the conversation, I know we've talked about a lot, but you've provided some great futuristic, you are the future of work guru here. So tell us what else should we be on the lookout for and what else you want the audience to know about future of work.

frank_cottle (30:33.11)

Well, I think number one, to your point, it has the opportunity right now to reshape itself into a little more comfortable human environment overall. Everyone is re-looking at not just how we work and where we work, but the facilities that we work from. And we're trying to make them more comfortable and more engaging. We're designing them not for efficiency of the...

angela_howard (30:39.654)

shape itself.

angela_howard (31:00.71)

efficiency of the building and utilization structure as much as for the efficiency of the people that are populating those buildings, large and small. So there's a big trend shift there that again isn't new, everybody was thinking that way, but now there's a new need and the need will create a certain level of action in that regard. Technology certainly is going to have an impact as well.

frank_cottle (31:01.986)

building and utilization structure as much as for the efficiency of the people that are populating those buildings, large and small. So there's a big trend shift there that, again, isn't new. Everybody was thinking that way, but now there's a new need, and the need will create a certain level of action in that regard.

Technology certainly is going to have an impact as well. We're in the virtual office business and in a couple of years we'll be in the virtual reality office business.

angela_howard (31:32.13)

in a couple years we'll be in the virtual reality office business. Selling not just offices but software with our offices so that you can slip on a headset or use haptics or whatever you want to use to engage into a virtual environment as opposed to a physical environment. You'll be able to be in both places. And that difference.

frank_cottle (31:36.69)

selling not just offices but software with our offices so that you can slip on a headset or use haptics or whatever you want to use to engage into a virtual environment as opposed to a physical environment. You'll be able to be in both places and that difference will again repurpose real estate. You can create higher density in many respects and yet still have lots of space.

angela_howard (31:57.37)

will again repurpose real estate. You can create higher density in many respects and yet still have lots of space. So when you're in a virtual space, you may be at a 48 inch workstation. That's pretty intense. That's pretty awful actually. Not if you've got a headset on. And a headset on, you're in a 2,000 square foot office with a couch and a conference room. So right now you and I.

frank_cottle (32:06.258)

So when you're in a virtual space, you may be at a 48 inch workstation. That's pretty dense. That's pretty awful actually, but not if you've got a headset on. And a headset on you're in a 2,000 square foot office with a couch and a conference room. So right now you and I are talking on a flat screen back and forth within

angela_howard (32:27.766)

back and forth within 24 to 36 months we would be holographically connected instead of that's in the works and it's moving into proof of concept issues there but virtual reality

frank_cottle (32:31.214)

24 to 36 month we would be holographically connected instead. That's in the works and it's moving into proof of concept issues there. But virtual reality holographics that will be technology that will change how we communicate and how we bring people together overall. And it will make it much easier and it will have an adaptation rate

angela_howard (32:47.15)

that will be technology that will change how we communicate and how we bring people together overall. It will make it much easier and it will have an adaptation rate ultimately sort of like the cell phone or the mobile phone has. You know pretty soon, you know my first mobile phone I had I think it was in 1973 or 4 and was the size of a small suitcase

frank_cottle (33:01.408)

the cell phone or the mobile phone has. You know, pretty soon, you know, my first mobile phone I had, I think it was in 1973 or 4, and was the size of a small suitcase set in the trunk of my car. I had a rotary dial that I had to call the marine operator on, and she would place the call for me, and I had a whip antenna that came over the back of my car and connected to my front bumper. Okay, it was dumb, but it worked.

angela_howard (33:16.902)

rotary dial that I had to call the marine operator on and she would place the call for me and I had a whip antenna that came over the back of my car and connected to my phone. Oh my gosh. Okay, it was dumb, but it worked. Okay? Yeah. So that technology had been around for a long time.

frank_cottle (33:32.754)

Okay, so that technology had been around for a long time. It got evolved to the point where it was a mass consumption, and now it's the most ubiquitous device on the planet. So new ways to communicate move once they're established, move very, very quickly. Look at pandemic, look at Zoom. Okay, one company.

angela_howard (33:41.018)

and now it's the most ubiquitous device on the planet. So new ways to communicate move once they're established, move very, very quickly. Look at pandemic, look at Zoom. One company that wasn't even the leader, wasn't even the first, but was the easiest to use by the most people.

frank_cottle (33:59.266)

that wasn't even the leader, wasn't even the first, but was the easiest to use by the most people. And so as new ways to communicate are brought to us, we will use them as rapidly as we can, particularly if they have a, if you were sitting across the desk from me holographically, this conversation would be just that much cooler.

angela_howard (34:10.11)

And so as new ways to communicate are brought to us, we will use them as rapidly as we can, particularly if they have a, if you were sitting across the desk from me holographically, this conversation would be just that much cooler. Yeah. Okay, so you know, we're going there. We're definitely going there, not just our company, but every major company in the world.

frank_cottle (34:29.494)

So, you know, we're going there. We're definitely going there. Not just our company, but every major company in the world will be going there.

angela_howard (34:37.794)

Well, just such interesting, interesting. It's hard to believe now, but it is so close. I mean, I heard a stat the other day that we're closer to 2030 than we are to 2019. We're moving so quickly.

frank_cottle (34:50.922)

Yeah, I agree. I agree. I definitely agree with that. Time moves forward towards you. You do not move towards it. Time is not a goal you push at. It comes at you. I've always believed that. So I think your comment about 2020 or 2030 is quite accurate.

angela_howard (35:00.636)

Yes. Time is not a goal you push out, it comes at you. Mm-hmm. Oh.

So I think your comment about 2020 or 2030 is quite accurate. Well, I'm just so, I love this conversation, first of all. So thank you for taking the time, Frank. And thank you for sharing your futuristic views on this. These things are a reality. And I think we're moving in that direction. And we're being challenged along the way. So thank you for sharing, Frank. And thanks for joining us. Really, really appreciate it. My pleasure.

frank_cottle (35:35.542)

My pleasure. Anything we can do to help, let us know.

angela_howard (35:40.09)

And we'll make sure, Frank, to include your website and access so listeners can take a look and reach out and contact you if they need help with their future work needs. So thanks again. That sounds good. I'll give you another website to your audience. Okay. You can list the Alliance virtual website, but I'll also give you allwork.space.

frank_cottle (35:51.658)

Well, that sounds good. I'll give you another website to your audience also. You can list the Alliance virtual website, but I'll also give you allwork.space.

All Workspace, All Work.Space. All Work is a publication we put out, it's free. And it really, it owns the trademark to the future of work, for crying out loud. So it really is focused on the topic in general, for people that are interested in following the topic. And we reach close to 35 million people a month with All Work. So it's a real thing. And for people interested in the topic,

angela_howard (36:03.138)

All workspace. All workspace. All workspace. All work is a publication we put out. It's free. And it really, it owns the trademark to the future of work. Oh wow.

So it really is focused on the topic in general for people that are interested in following the topic. And we reach close to 35 million people a month with all work. Wonderful. It's a real thing. And for people interested in the topic and interested in content around the topic, research, reports, things of that nature, that's a source for them to go to. And it's free.

frank_cottle (36:32.776)

and interesting content around the topic, research reports, things of that nature. That's a source for them to go to, and it's free.

angela_howard (36:40.526)

Perfect. Well, we will be sure to include that and have people take advantage of that value that you've provided for free, so thank you. And we hope to have you back on sometime as things progress, maybe with virtual reality. We'll have another episode to come.

frank_cottle (36:56.61)

Well, that works for me. Happy to do so.

angela_howard (36:59.93)

Thank you, Frank.