Meet Less, Communicate More with Josh Little
angela_howard (00:01.454)
Hello, Josh, welcome to Humanly Possible. So excited to have you on this show. Welcome, welcome. Well, it's so great to be here. Thanks, Angela. Yeah, and Josh, I just, I know we were just talking for a few minutes. I feel like we could have recorded earlier because you were already dropping some great knowledge, but tell us about yourself, a little bit about you professionally, but also what makes you human. Yeah, for sure. Josh Little, I'm-
josh_little (00:08.425)
Well, it's so great to be here. Thanks, Angela.
josh_little (00:26.781)
Yeah, for sure. Josh Little, I'm a serial entrepreneur. I've built four tech companies that have now been used by hundreds of millions of people collectively and had a great career as an entrepreneur. Before that, had a career in sales and sales training in the Fortune 500 and that's kind of what led me into entrepreneurship. And what makes me human other than my hairline is my life's mission, which is to make beautiful things. That's my personal mission in life.
angela_howard (00:29.402)
serial entrepreneur, built four tech companies that have now been used by hundreds of millions of people collectively and had a great career as an entrepreneur. Before that, had a career in sales and sales training in the Fortune 500 and that's kind of what led me into entrepreneurship. What makes me human other than my hairline is my life's mission, which is to make beautiful things. That's my personal mission in life and regardless of what it is, whether it's a jar of pickles
josh_little (00:55.313)
regardless of what it is, whether it's a jar of pickles or a musical performance or a YouTube video or a tech company, my goal in life is to make beautiful things, which means they're objectively beautiful and worthy of remark. And that's the bar I strive for everything.
angela_howard (00:59.216)
or a musical performance or a YouTube video or a tech company, my goal in life is to make beautiful things, which means they're objectively beautiful and worthy of remark. And that's the bar I strive for everything. I love it. Well, now that you said pickles, now I'm really hungry. But yes, I was really drawn to it. I know you're a serial entrepreneur, but you have a startup called Vali. And so I'd love to hear more about that.
josh_little (01:18.678)
Ha ha.
angela_howard (01:29.136)
I'd love you to share with the audience what you've built.
Yeah, so with Vali, we're on a mission to help team communication suck less, especially for remote teams, because you really only have two options to communicate. You either type or you talk, and neither are perfect. They both have inefficiencies. When you choose to type, you're choosing to do something like Slack or email. You're choosing to do something you're seven times slower at than your ability to talk. And we all have that instinct like, oh, we just need to talk to move forward. And that didn't change with the pandemic. That doesn't change for remote teams.
josh_little (01:32.925)
Yeah, so with volley, we're on a mission to help team communication suck less, especially for remote teams, because you really only have two options to communicate. You either type or you talk and neither are perfect. They both have inefficiencies. When you choose to type, you're choosing to do something like Slack or email. You're choosing to do something you're seven times slower at than your ability to talk. And we all have that instinct like, ah, we just need to talk to move forward. And that didn't change with the pandemic. That doesn't change for remote teams.
angela_howard (02:02.828)
But talking means synchronicity. It means getting in the same room or the same Zoom, which is interruptive and has a host of other inefficiencies, meandering of the conversation, small talk, people that talk too much, people that don't talk enough, people that shouldn't be there. All of the problems that we know as meetings, and meetings is an easy villain to attack. So with Vali, we've built a communication platform that's the best of both worlds. The richness of talking with the flexibility of texting. It's a video messaging tool.
josh_little (02:03.049)
but talking means synchronicity. It means getting in the same room or the same Zoom, which is interruptive and has a host of other inefficiencies, meandering in the conversation, small talk, people that talk too much, people that don't talk enough, people that shouldn't be there. All of the problems that we know as meetings and meetings is an easy villain to attack. So with Vali, we've built a communication platform that's the best of both worlds. The richness of talking with the flexibility of texting. It's a video messaging tool.
angela_howard (02:32.848)
asynchronous video messaging. So you take turns in Vali just like any other conversation, just like this one, we've taken a couple of turns so far. But in Vali, you record your turn with video, like on Snapchat or Marco Polo.
josh_little (02:33.045)
asynchronous video messaging. So you take turns in Vali, just like any other conversation, just like this one, we've taken a couple of turns so far, but in Vali, you record your turn with video, kind of like on Snapchat or Marco Polo. And that allows us to have, you know, the richness of talking and the flexibility of texting combined. So it's a new way to move work forward, and it's exciting to see how this is helping teams just communicate better in a remote world.
angela_howard (02:47.77)
us to have the richness of talking and the flexibility of texting combined. So it's a new way to move work forward and it's exciting to see how this is helping teams just communicate better in a remote world. Yeah, and it's so timely because I think a lot of, I mean, I know a lot of companies are grappling with how they're going to rethink paradigms around work. And I know, I mean, you and I have probably been working remotely for a very long time.
long time, but there's some companies that have never worked remotely or people who have never worked remotely before. So describe to us what is, you kind of alluded to it, but what is asynchronous work? And maybe the follow-up question is, what kind of communication is appropriate asynchronously versus synchronously? Great question. So asynchronous.
josh_little (03:36.565)
Great question. So asynchronous just simply means that time and place isn't involved. Just like an email or a Slack message, that's asynchronous. When you send it, the other person doesn't have to read it the moment you send it. Unlike us talking now, you're listening to me while I talk, I listen to you while you talk, et cetera. So asynchronous is just separated by place or time. And with volley, we're kind of extending the bar of asynchronous.
angela_howard (03:38.41)
just simply means that time and place isn't involved. Just like an email or a Slack message, that's asynchronous. You send it, the other person doesn't have to read it the moment you send it. Unlike us talking now, you're listening to me while I talk, I listen to you while you talk, etc. So asynchronous is just separated by place or time. With Volley, we're extending the bar of asynchronous deeper into the spectrum of conversation.
josh_little (04:04.833)
deeper into the spectrum of conversation. We kind of know instinctively, we wouldn't set up a meeting to send someone a link or a file, like we don't need it. Just send me the link or a file. That's asynchronous, right? But then on the other end of the spectrum, imagine a conversation that's emotionally charged or takes 500 turns by eight different people to make it happen. Those things are difficult and shouldn't be done asynchronously. So at the two ends of the spectrum,
angela_howard (04:08.304)
distinctively we wouldn't.
we wouldn't set up a meeting to send someone a link or file. We don't need it, just send me the link or file. That's asynchronous. But then on the other end of the spectrum, imagine a conversation that's emotionally charged or takes 500 turns by eight different people to make it happen. Those things are difficult and shouldn't be done asynchronously. So at the two ends of the spectrum, it's pretty clear. But in the middle, it gets muddy. What do you use asynchronous for?
josh_little (04:34.173)
it's pretty clear, but in the middle, it gets kind of muddy. What do you use asynchronous for? And that's what we're trying to do with volley is extend that asynchronous deeper. So take the asynchronous chat that you're having in Slack where you're slacking your face off all day and typing back and forth to your coworkers, make that thing better just by giving the full context and empathy using asynchronous video. And in volley, you can also write a text volley or use your voice volley if your hair isn't good,
angela_howard (04:40.24)
trying to do with volley is extend that asynchronous deeper. So take the asynchronous chat that you're having in Slack where you're slacking your face off all day and typing back and forth to your coworkers. Make that thing better just by giving the full context and empathy using asynchronous video. And in volley you can also write a text volley or use your voice volley if your hair isn't good. But every day is a good hair day for me. So I don't know what the problem is. That's true. I'm very jealous.
josh_little (05:04.085)
I, every day is a good hair day for me. So, um, I don't have that problem. All right. You got to go with what you have. Right. Uh, but, uh, but there are certain things that just need to be synchronous. And, and, and for us at volley and for our users, what we're finding is it's. Anything that's emotionally charged and anything that just requires tons of tight feedback loops in the conversation. And it's surprising how much.
angela_howard (05:11.19)
you gotta go with what you have right? But there are certain things that just need to be synchronous and for us at Volley and for our users, what we're finding is it's anything that's emotionally charged and anything that just requires tons of tight feedback loops in the conversation. And it's surprising how much, how much.
josh_little (05:34.847)
how much actually can be done asynchronous. It depends on kind of the culture of the team, but quite a bit.
angela_howard (05:35.79)
can be done asynchronous. It depends on kind of the culture of the team. But quite a bit. How do you feel like work styles come into play? Because, you know, when we... I'm in the business of behavioral psychology and team dynamics and all that jazz. So, you know, what we often find is for teams to work really well together, you have to understand each other's defaults. And, you know, I've talked to some teams where you've got...
Perhaps someone from a younger generation say, you know, I could text all day, I'd be totally fine. But then you've got that Gen Xer, for example, who is like, no, I'm gonna walk over and have the conversation. So how do you see those things? Do they clash? Is there a common denominator across generational and work style differences?
There is, yeah. The Gen X wants to pick up the phone, the Gen Y wants to text, the Gen Z wants to record their voice or their face, because that's how they grew up. So there is some stereotypes for generations for sure. But this is one of the things that I'm most excited about what we're doing. I heard from one engineer, for example, he said, my friends on Snapchat and WhatsApp, they think I'm funny, they think I'm confident.
josh_little (06:24.493)
There is yeah, the Gen X or wants to pick up the phone the Gen Y wants to text the Gen Z Wants to record their voice or their face because that's how they grew up, right? So there is some you know Stereotypes for generations for sure, but this is one of the things that I'm most excited about what we're doing Heard from one engineer for example He said, you know my friends on snapchat and whatsapp. They think I'm funny. They think I'm confident
angela_howard (06:54.144)
They think I'm cool, but nobody at work thinks that about me. Because I just don't know what to say. When I'm sitting in a meeting, I trip over my words. I don't have a good thought to share. I'm nervous about what I'm saying. So what Volley is enabling me to do is to show up how I need to my team. That's why I think it's pretty exciting is allowing that face-to-face communication. But for someone like me, who's an introvert, who,
josh_little (06:54.377)
They think I'm cool, but nobody at work thinks that about me because I just don't know what to say. I don't, when I'm sitting in a meeting, I trip over my words. I don't have a good thought to share. I'm nervous about what I'm saying. And so what volley is enabling me to do is to show up how I need, you need to, to my team. Right? So that's what I think is pretty exciting is allowing that face to face communication. But for someone like me, who's an introvert who
angela_howard (07:24.19)
obviously from this podcast should take a little time to think before he speaks. It allows someone to just take the time to think and what educational research has shown us is that when you can give a student even three seconds to think about the response, they come up with a fundamentally better response. This more succinct and more to the point and more and with more depth. So,
josh_little (07:24.421)
obviously from this podcast should take a little time to think before he speaks. Um, it allows someone to just take the time to think and what educational research has shown us is that when you can give a student even three seconds to think about the response, they come up with a fundamentally better response. That's more succinct and more to the point, uh, more, uh, and with more depth. So, um, that's true in workplace communication and that's the power of asynchronous.
angela_howard (07:47.498)
that's true and workplace communication and that's the power of asynchronous. But the downside of asynchronous, the power of email is I can sit and obsess over the thing for two hours and get it just right, get those bullet points perfectly in there. But isn't that the best use of time? Couldn't you just said that? How often does your email get misunderstood or misinterpreted? Because it only has seven percent of the full picture of communication,
josh_little (07:52.521)
But the downside of asynchronous, you know, the power of email is I can sit and obsess over the thing for two hours and get it just right and get those bullet plates, points put perfectly in there, right? But is that the best use of time? Couldn't you just said that? And how often does your email get misunderstood or misunderstood, misinterpreted because it only has 7% of the full picture of communication that tone of voice and body language doesn't lend. So
angela_howard (08:17.592)
and body language doesn't lend. I think there's a big opportunity to communicate better. That's one of the things I'm most excited about what we're doing. Does that get to the question where you're going? Yeah. I think just to summarize from my perspective is,
josh_little (08:21.601)
I think there's a big opportunity to communicate better. And that's one of the things I'm most excited about what we're doing. Does that kind of get to the question where you were going? Yeah.
angela_howard (08:36.754)
You're giving a diverse outlet of communication based on preference, but based on also objective efficiency. What's the most having diverse ways of communicating that meet the needs of your team can only make communication better? Versus having a single mode of communication that doesn't work for everybody, and now 80% of your team is being inefficient.
josh_little (08:48.159)
Right.
josh_little (08:57.733)
Absolutely.
angela_howard (09:06.414)
That's right.
josh_little (09:06.569)
That's right. And the future of work is only going to be more flexible. It's only going to be more distributed. You're in different modalities throughout the day. You're in a coffee shop in the morning, then you're in an office, then you're at lunch, then you're at home, then you're walking the dog, whatever it is. Each of those modalities kind of require a shape-shifter of a communication tool, which is what we, what we're trying to build a volley is one that shows up how you need it to so that you can show up.
angela_howard (09:07.438)
the future of work is only going to be more flexible. It's only going to be more distributed. You're in different modalities throughout the day. You're in a coffee shop in the morning, then you're in an office, then you're at lunch, then you're at home, then you're walking the dog, whatever it is. Each of those modalities kind of require a shape shifter of a communication tool, which is what we're trying to build a volley is one that shows up how you need it to so that you can show up how you need to with your team,
josh_little (09:34.653)
how you need to with your team, whether that's the most efficient or the most effective for your message. It's very much use the right tool for the right job is what I think you're saying, right?
angela_howard (09:37.532)
or the most effective for your message. It's very much use the right tool for the right job is what I think you're saying, right? Yeah. Yeah, no, that's great. And one thing that kind of came to mind when you were talking about the engineer you were talking about and how he needs to show up, I think there's a level of, professionalism is going away, which I love. I love the idea of this because professionalism, what is professionalism anyway? And how much energy have we?
have we exerted to meet it? And so I think what tools like yours provides is an opportunity to be authentic and to show up the way you want to show up authentically. So have you seen, I mean, as you were developing the tool, did that come to mind? Any thoughts from you on that? Yeah, it is actually something that bothers me. I think for the same reasons that you're happy that professionalism is going away. About 5% of our users are like,
josh_little (10:25.665)
Yeah, it is actually something that bothers me. I think for the same reasons that you're happy that professionalism is going away. About 5% of our users are like, oh, can you add filters? Ah, I don't like seeing myself on camera. Ooh, I don't like my voice. And I'm like, oh no.
angela_howard (10:34.894)
Can you add filters? Ah, I don't like seeing these on my camera. Ooh, I don't like my voice. And I'm like.
What have we done to these people? What? I don't know. Yes, I guess we could add filters, but what are we really solving? Isn't there a deeper issue here? So, but I get it. I get it. But I can't imagine a future of work where...
josh_little (10:45.621)
What's wrong? I don't know. Yes, I guess we could add filters, but what are we really solving? Isn't there a deeper issue here? But I get it. But I can't imagine a future of work where we are less comfortable with video. We're less comfortable with our authentic selves and who we are and what our backgrounds look like and why. And that's all okay.
angela_howard (11:01.026)
we are less comfortable with video. We're less comfortable with our authentic selves and who we are and what our backgrounds look like and why, right? And that's all okay. I think we communicate on Volley heavily as a team, as you can imagine. And one of our engineers actually said was, this is in the hiring process. We were interviewing and using Volley is kind of the communication tool in between the interviews.
josh_little (11:14.085)
I think it's, we communicate on volley heavily as a team, as you can imagine. And what one of our engineers actually said was, um, uh, this is in the hiring process, we, we were interviewing and using volley is kind of the communication tool in between the interviews. And before I started, he said, you know what? I feel like I actually know you. I feel like we're already friends, which is kind of weird. I've never felt this way about somebody I hadn't even worked with yet. And that's because you're.
angela_howard (11:30.96)
And before he started, he said, you know what? I feel like I actually know you. I feel like we're already friends, which is kind of weird. I've never felt this way about somebody I hadn't even worked with yet. And that's because you're walking out to the car and you can see your house and you can see this, oh, my kid just walked through the background. This is my dog and this is, right? It's life and therefore it's connection because culture and relationships
josh_little (11:42.997)
walking out to the car and you can see your house and you can see this, oh, my kid just walked through the background and this is my dog and this is, right, it's life. And therefore it's connection because, you know, culture and relationships are the sum of our communication, right, or sorry, let me say that differently. Communication sums up to equal culture and relationships. So the way we communicate is very much
angela_howard (12:00.88)
the sum of our communication, right? Or sorry, let me say that differently. Communication sums up to equal culture and relationships. So the way we communicate is very much the way we relate and what our culture looks like. So yeah, I think there's a huge opportunity here and I agree.
josh_little (12:13.621)
the way we relate and what our culture looks like. So yeah, I think there's a huge opportunity here and I agree.
angela_howard (12:22.414)
Yeah, I think often about this paradigm shift around office culture, you know, which I've been saying for a long time. Office culture is not culture, right? It's just a place. It's a destination. An office is four walls and concrete, but that's not culture. Culture lives in the minds and the hearts of your people.
josh_little (12:40.704)
Yeah.
angela_howard (12:44.934)
and it's the way you make decisions, it's how you communicate, it's how you collaborate, it's what's said and what's not said. It's much more complex than a destination. So from your perspective, how do you see, I guess, how do you see the future of work and culture change? I mean, talk a little bit about it, you know, technology is one piece, but anything else that you're just noticing with the work and starting this business that has given you some insight? Yeah.
josh_little (13:13.157)
Yeah, it's been fun to research group communication and the dynamics of team communication. It's been fun to research those things. But I think what's interesting that I'm finding is, you mentioned earlier, you've probably been working remote for a long time. Actually, no. I've wanted to with my last three companies. We've tried, we read remote by Jason Freed. We...
angela_howard (13:13.758)
It's been fun to research group communication and the dynamics of team communication. It's been fun to research those things. But I think what's interesting that I'm finding is...
You mentioned earlier, you've probably been working remote for a long time. Actually, no, I've wanted to with my last three companies. We've tried. We read remote by Jason Freed. We did all the things we did work from home Wednesdays, and it just never worked. We could never make it click. And I think there's been enough talk about remote work and freedom and flexibility and all of the benefits that I can yield, but the
josh_little (13:38.677)
did all the things we did, work from home Wednesdays, and it just never worked. We could never make it click. And I think there's been enough talk about remote work and freedom and flexibility and all of the benefits that it can yield, but the tools haven't been there to let us actually do there. So I think the future of work is kind of held up right now. It's a dam of...
angela_howard (13:54.326)
the tools haven't been there to let us actually do this. So I think the future of work is kind of held up right now.
dam that's held back, this pent up demand for all of us that are ready. COVID forced us there, but I think it really only cracked the dam. It didn't break it. I think it's going to be allowing communication to flow like it needs to so that work can flow like it needs to at home. Because I mean, Buffer's state of remote work study last year cited, the top two problems with remote work are lack of communication and loneliness. I think we all feel that,
josh_little (14:05.669)
that's held back this pent up demand for all of us that are ready, COVID forced us there, but I think it really only cracked the dam. It didn't break it. And I think it's going to be allowing communication to flow like it needs to, so that work can flow like it needs to at home, because I mean, Buffer's state of remote work study last year cited, I mean, the top two problems with remote work are lack of communication and loneliness. And I think we all feel that. And that's why.
You read articles about Zoom happy hours and things like that, but that's a good attempt, but it's just forced fun at the end of the, it doesn't work. Um, but I think you're, you're totally right when, when you're saying, you know, the, the way we communicate it is our culture. It's certainly not that it's a heck of a lot more our culture than that mural on the wall is in, you know, our cool lobby or whatever we think is our culture.
angela_howard (14:33.852)
articles about zoom happy hours and things like that but that's a good attempt but it's just forced fun at the end it doesn't work um but i think i think you're totally right when you're saying you know the way we communicate it is our culture it's certainly not that it's a heck of a lot more our culture than that mural on the wall is and correct you know our cool lobby or whatever we think is our culture yeah and i think um
You know, there's a shift happening with, like when I think about culture, I think about the, and there's actually some good research to say this, which is actually, if you're communicating well, you should actually be communicating less synchronously, right, because you have the systems, the infrastructure, the tools, the technology, the diversity of communication outlets to get what you need and to keep things moving. Because that's what asynchronous work is. It's like,
josh_little (15:18.997)
Hmm.
angela_howard (15:31.986)
It's almost like you want to automate it as much as possible, but also there is a human element, obviously, because we're human beings and we need context. And so it's like finding the right balance. And I feel like this is hard. I mean, this is hard work. This requires, I think, leaders to lead differently. It requires team members to take more ownership and accountability and self-advocacy. So what are some skills that you feel like are going to be needed to really make this idea of
josh_little (15:41.578)
Mm-hmm.
josh_little (15:54.207)
Mm-hmm.
angela_howard (15:59.65)
the discretion between asynchronous and synchronous work. Yeah, well, I think it's maybe less.
josh_little (16:05.073)
Yeah, well, I think it's maybe less skills and more of like a point of view or a paradigm shift. I think you have to be excited about the value prop of asynchronous or remote work. You have to be excited about what that can mean to your life, your culture, your team, right? And be interested in those benefits. And so I say...
angela_howard (16:08.202)
skills and more of like a point of view or a paradigm shift. I think you have to be excited about the value prop of asynchronous or remote work. You have to be excited about what that can mean to your life, your culture, your team, and be interested in those benefits. I say, very frankly, if communication doesn't matter, and I don't think anyone's going to actually admit this,
josh_little (16:33.281)
very frankly, like if communication doesn't matter, and I don't think anyone's gonna actually admit this, but I've worked at companies where it honestly didn't matter. And our communication back and forth, yes, we have to do it, but it doesn't matter. But if it does, if you're a teen that's trying to do big things, stakes are high, communication matters, then let's make every interaction count. Let's choose something that is asynchronous, because why?
angela_howard (16:37.956)
but I've worked at companies where it honestly didn't matter. Our communication back and forth, yes, we have to do it, but it doesn't matter. But if it does, if you're a team that's trying to do big things, stakes are high, communication matters, then let's make every interaction count. Let's choose something that is asynchronous because why were we hired after all? Were we hired to do a job or were we hired to do a job?
josh_little (17:02.453)
Were we hired after all? Were we hired to do a job? Or were we hired to sit in back-to-back meetings? I hope not the latter. I think we're all hired to do a job. There is deep work that should be done, deep thinking that's needed. And for that we need something that's less interruptive, less time-bound, less of a sponge that eats up our time, and something we can tuck into corners of our day, listen to 2X, have perfect total recall, skip forward, skip back.
angela_howard (17:06.538)
to sit in back-to-back meetings. I hope not the latter. I think we're all hired to do a job. There's deep work that should be done, deep thinking that's needed. And for that, we need something that's less interruptive, less time-bound, less of a sponge that eats up our time, and something we can tuck into corners of our day, listen to two acts, have perfect total recall, skip forward, skip back, do the standup on a skateboard, whatever it is we need. We need that flexibility in order to be able to work flexibly.
josh_little (17:30.197)
do the standup on a skateboard, whatever it is we need. We need that flexibility in order to be able to work flexibly.
angela_howard (17:36.452)
And I think also just a quality of life element to this. I think to your point, you talked about freedom and choice. My belief is that is going to be the future of work. Is I mean, I kind of say this tongue in cheek, but treat people like adults, right? Because they typically know if you hire talented people who have the behaviors that you need at your organization to move your culture forward, it's likely that they know exactly how to get the work done. And you know, you.
putting parameters around meetings, creating choice, I think, choice around communication, choice around flexibility, discretion around when a live meeting is needed versus an asynchronous process. These are smart people that you're hiring. So I think there is the- And would you say that the most talented people are probably going to start flocking to the most elite organizations that allow them to do that?
josh_little (18:19.949)
Mm-hmm.
josh_little (18:24.145)
Right. And would you say that the most talented people are probably going to start flocking to the most elite organizations that allow them to get out of their way and allow them to just do that job and to excel?
angela_howard (18:33.682)
that get out of their way and allow them to just do that job and to excel? Exactly. Yeah. I think usually when I'm working with companies, what I find is a lot of times just the company gets in the way of the talent. They are the problem. And they're like, well, why aren't we getting the most out of our people? It's like, well, you've created this bureaucracy. You've created these blockades and these barriers. You're wasting talent. You're wasting energy and time and the wrong things. So yeah, I do think that.
josh_little (18:48.169)
Mm-hmm.
josh_little (19:04.125)
Right. And I don't think anyone's sitting around like, Ooh, how can I create some bureaucracy here? No one's thinking that. We're just, we're trying to do our best, but we're using past of work tools to move into this future work. And I don't think they're going to take us there. So that's why I say, I think a paradigm shift is needed to kind of get us to a place where we think not only async by default, but we think video first.
angela_howard (19:04.274)
And I don't think anyone's sitting around like, ooh, how can I create some bureaucracy here? No one's thinking that.
We're trying to do our best, but we're using past of work tools to move into this future work and I don't think they're going to take us there. So that's why I say I think a paradigm shift is needed to kind of get us to a place where we think not only async by default, but we think video first because video is a fundamentally better way to communicate. It gives the other 93% of the communication picture and yet how we say it does matter
josh_little (19:31.765)
because video is a fundamentally better way to communicate. It gives the other 93% of the communication picture. And yeah, how we say it does matter just about as much as what is said, right?
angela_howard (19:41.488)
as much as what is said, right? Yeah, absolutely. And I think the, you mentioned a paradigm shift, but I do think, you know, another conversation is happening with, from a career development standpoint, which is learn how to use video and content creation to your benefit and for communications. I mean, content creation in and of itself, I think there's a group of people who just, it's foreign to them. It's something they've never done before. They never thought about,
information, knowledge sharing, as content creation. It's always been a Word document or a PowerPoint presentation or an Excel presentation, but now we're talking about blogs and articles and videos and how do you create that to engage an audience in a very short period of time. So that's one skill I believe that people will have to, digital writing and content creation are two really good skill sets to have. Absolutely.
josh_little (20:16.993)
Mm-hmm.
josh_little (20:35.297)
Absolutely. Yeah. The, the, the future is no less comfortable with video. And we're actually trying to take it a step further and help the world see that video isn't just a piece of content, but it's a vehicle for communication. And that's like its highest use and highest form is to like we're using right now is to allow it to communicate better and imagine the superpowers, if we could even split up these turns and take time to think and, and do all of those things. So
angela_howard (20:37.23)
the future is no less comfortable with video, and we're actually trying to take it a step further and help the world see that video isn't just a piece of content, but it's a vehicle for communication. And that's like its highest use and highest form is to like we're using right now is to allow it to communicate better and imagine the superpowers if we could even split up these turns and take time to think and do all of those things. So there is a decent amount of the world that I think already thinks about video as a piece of content.
josh_little (21:02.349)
There is a decent amount of the world that I think already thinks about video as a piece of content. And they're like, well, I want to send, how do I send this volley to someone? We're like, well, no, you just invite them to the conversation, then you volley back and forth. You're not making a video. You wouldn't want to edit this thing. It's just a vehicle. It's temporary. This is why Snapchat, you send someone a snap, it goes away. It served its purpose. And volley. It's.
angela_howard (21:07.204)
Well, I want to send, how do I send this volley to someone? We're like, well.
No, you just invite them to the conversation, then you volley back and forth. You're not making a video. You wouldn't want to edit this thing. Right. It's just a vehicle. It's temporary. This is why Snapchat, you send someone a Snap, it goes away. It served its purpose. And volley, they stick around for 60 days because it's work, and you probably need to go back to it. But after that, you don't need it. Nah. Nah, you got what you wanted. So well, let's move to, I would love to move to synchronous work really quickly,
josh_little (21:28.405)
they stick around for 60 days because it's work and you probably need to go back to it. But after that, you don't need it.
Yeah.
angela_howard (21:42.9)
there is a need for synchronous work. Now, being mindful and intentional about how you structure that work, I think is the important piece. How can companies meet smarter? Because I think today you hear a lot about that could have been an email, or do we really need that meeting? What are some tactics that you can think of to improve meetings? Yeah, well, certainly,
josh_little (22:08.285)
Yeah, well, certainly there is a spectrum of communication and there is a certain spectrum that your team is, and I'm speaking generally to the world, your team is using as asynchronous communication. And at the lower end of that spectrum, these are the things that could have been an email. Probably not actually an email because we do need to talk, but it doesn't need to take even 10 turns. It might take,
angela_howard (22:10.71)
there is a spectrum of communication and there is a certain spectrum that your team is, and I'm speaking generally to the world, your team is using as asynchronous communication. And at the lower end of that spectrum,
this is these are the things that could have been an email probably not actually email because we do need to talk but it doesn't need to take even ten turns it might take three turns back and forth like hey this is my idea what do you think of this well I don't know about that well okay that's good I'll do this you know that was like three turns that doesn't need to be a meeting but because it was kind of complex and you needed to explain yourself you don't want to spend a half an hour writing an email you don't want to slack your face
josh_little (22:37.969)
three turns back and forth like, hey, this is my idea. What do you think of this? Well, I don't know about that. Well, okay, that's good. I'll do this. You know, that was like three turns. That doesn't need to be a meeting, but because it was kind of complex and you needed to explain yourself, you don't wanna spend a half an hour writing an email. You don't wanna slack your face off. So you might as well get in a room together, but magically that turned into 30 minutes. So it's really, again, the right tool for the job.
angela_howard (22:55.728)
So you might as well get in a room together, but magically that turned into 30 minutes. So it's really, again, the right tool for the job. Now, if we're talking about a 500 turn.
josh_little (23:07.025)
Now, if we're talking about a 500 turn backlog refinement meeting with engineers where all eight engineers need to weigh in and every second take every turn happens in like one or two seconds. Yeah, that would be terribly synchronously. That would be, you know, or an accountability conversation that's emotionally charged. Do not do that asynchronous. If you wouldn't text it, you know, you shouldn't volley it. Yeah, those those.
angela_howard (23:11.45)
refinement meeting with engineers where all eight engineers need to weigh in and every second take every turn happens in like one or two seconds yeah that would be terribly synchronously that would be you know or an accountability conversation emotionally charged
Do not do that asynchronously. If you wouldn't text it, you shouldn't volley it. Yeah, those things need to happen synchronously. But for everything else, there's volley. And I think for each team, that line, where you draw that line, kind of depends on the culture and the needs of the team and the importance of work and the speed at which it needs to flow. So at volley, we have a couple meetings a week that really are just better done synchronously.
josh_little (23:35.113)
those things need to happen synchronously. But for everything else, there's volley. And I think for each team, that line, where you draw that line kind of depends on the culture and the needs of the team and the importance of work and the speed at which it needs to flow. So at volley, we have a couple meetings a week that really are just better done synchronously. We were extreme in the beginning, trying to force everything asynchronous, but...
angela_howard (23:57.87)
we were extreme in the beginning trying to force everything asynchronous, but yeah, there's just a couple of things, you know, that our founders meeting and then our planning meeting each week that really just are better synchronous. And so it's again, right tool for the right job. Yeah. And I think even with synchronous work, you can still implement asynchronous.
josh_little (24:02.461)
Yeah, there's just a couple of things, you know, that our founders meeting and then our planning meeting each week that really just are better synchronous. And so it's again, right tool for the right job.
angela_howard (24:21.718)
bookends, I guess, if that makes sense. So, you know, prepping for the meeting. Like, what do you what does everybody need to come in knowing? So what can you provide asynchronously? So your meeting maybe isn't as long or confusing or there's not a ton of energy exerted in the energy of figuring out what's going on. And then the other bookend, I think, is the recap, the decisions like who's doing what, because I think what you don't want is to have another meeting because somebody forgot they're on the hook for that other thing. And so you're right back where you started. So.
josh_little (24:23.743)
Yeah.
josh_little (24:38.933)
Right.
angela_howard (24:51.414)
Those bookends, I always think of asynchronous, but there are going to be meetings where you need to get together and put your brains together. Right, yeah. It's the document that needs to be created to get us all on the same page in the meeting. I think Amazon does that. Like the first five or 10 minutes of a meeting are.
josh_little (25:01.077)
Right, yeah, it's the document that needs to be created to get us all on the same page in the meeting. I think this is, Amazon does that, like the first five or 10 minutes of a meeting are just reading the document that everyone has to put together to have a meeting. I mean, creating constraints like that are good. And what we hear from our users is, volley is kind of the pre-game and post-game conversation. It's the ramp up, but a lot of times, you know, if you've got an hour, it's a big hairy decision that needs to be made.
angela_howard (25:09.782)
Just reading the document that everyone has to put together to have a meeting. I mean, creating constraints like that are good. And what we hear from our users is, Vali is kind of the pre-game and post-game conversation. It's the ramp up. But a lot of times, you know, if you've got an hour, it's a big, hairy decision that needs to be made. We didn't get it all out. You're not quite sure what to do. Some research needs to be done. Well, what are you going to do? Why are we going to schedule another?
josh_little (25:30.853)
We didn't get it all out. You're not quite sure what to do. Some research needs to be done Well, what are you gonna do? Why we're gonna schedule another meeting. When can we have it's two weeks from now we've all been at those companies right and it just feels like Everything works in like a two-week cycle and it's like oh man But it's really just a few turns and research something to be reported a decision that's shared proposal made everyone agrees That can be done asynchronously maybe the hashing it out
angela_howard (25:38.19)
meeting. That's two weeks from now. We've all been at those companies, right? It just feels like everything works in like a two week cycle. And it's like, oh, man. But it's really just a few turns and research something to be reported a decision that's shared proposal made everyone agrees that can be done asynchronously. Maybe the hashing it out needs to be done synchronously getting in a room, seeing each other, feeling the energy. But then after that meeting, the
josh_little (25:59.257)
needs to be done synchronously, getting in a room, seeing each other, feeling the energy. But then after that meeting, the conversation can continue and move as fast as communication can.
angela_howard (26:07.95)
the conversation can continue and move as fast as communication can. Yeah. Well, I love the pregame postgame. I know that puts it into perspective for me. I call bookends, but I like the pregame postgame. So, Josh, just to kind of close here, anything else that you want to mention around this idea of asynchronous work, the future of work that you want our audience to be in tune with before we before we close out?
josh_little (26:21.726)
Yeah.
josh_little (26:38.789)
Well, maybe one other thing. It's one thing that I'm pretty excited about, hearing feedback from our users. Because one of the things we all noticed when we went remote was all of those little interactions that seemed like nothing, the water cooler conversations, the me jumping out and saying something funny in the hall, or the conversation we had in the parking lot, they went away. And...
angela_howard (26:42.106)
It's one thing that I'm pretty excited about, hearing feedback from our users, because one of the things we all noticed when we went remote was all of those little interactions that seemed like nothing, the water cooler conversations, the me jumping out and saying something funny in the hall, or the conversation we had in the parking lot, they went away.
Those interactions seemed like nothing until in isolation, but when you combine them up, they equal our relationship. It's not the work that we're doing, it's the conversation around the work that connects us. And so what I love that...
josh_little (27:06.537)
Those interactions seemed like nothing in isolation, but when you combine them up, they equal our relationship. It's not the work that we're doing, it's the conversation in and around the work that connects us. And so what I love that we're hearing about something like volley that can kind of bring that spontaneity back, bring that fun back into the workplace, nobody's gonna schedule a Zoom.
angela_howard (27:25.662)
hearing about something like volley that can kind of bring that spontaneity back bring that fun back into the workplace um nobody's gonna schedule a zoom to tell a joke you're probably not gonna write it in an email either right it's not gonna get my masterful comedic timing but something like volleys in the middle where you're like you can tell the joke say what you need to say move on with your day so one of the one of the things i am most excited about is uh i think i've said that
josh_little (27:35.977)
to tell a joke. And you're probably not going to write it in an email either, because it's not going to get my masterful comedic timing. But something like volley is in the middle where you're like, you can tell the joke, say what you need to say, move on with your day. So one of the one of the things I am most excited about is, I think I've said that like three times. But I really am is how something like volley can bring back the fun and spontaneity.
angela_howard (27:55.656)
times. But I really am is how something like Volley can bring back the fun and spontaneity to a remote team who feels lonely and you know this lack of collaboration and connection.
josh_little (28:05.001)
to a remote team who feels lonely and this lack of collaboration and connection.
angela_howard (28:12.13)
Love that. Yeah, I think that is a missing piece for people. And it's important. It's it is the connection, the spontaneity. I mean, I'm just repeating what you said, but it's the spontaneity piece that a zoom call or a slack or a team's message just doesn't quite capture. So
josh_little (28:30.525)
Yeah, I guess I've heard, you know, people don't leave companies, they leave a manager. I'm not sure that's, that's quite true. People leave a culture, people, if they don't feel connected, if they don't feel heard, if they don't, you know, feel, feel like they're fitting in, you know, they're gonna leave.
angela_howard (28:32.43)
I guess I've heard, you know, people don't leave companies, they leave a manager. I'm not sure that's quite true. People leave a culture. People, if they don't feel connected, if they don't feel heard, if they don't, you know, feel like they're fitting in, you know.
They're going to leave. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Josh, I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I could talk to you all day about this. And would love to have you back at some point to talk more about, I'm sure in a month we'll be experiencing something else with the future of work. So thank you, Josh, for joining. And thanks for sharing your insights. It was my pleasure. I'm so glad to be here.
josh_little (29:11.146)
It was my pleasure. I'm so glad that you had me.
