Shifting Work Dynamics with DAVE fano
angela_r_howard (00:01.442)
Dave, welcome to Humanly Possible. It is so great to meet you. I am really psyched about this conversation today. And Dave, I would love for you to just give us a quick introduction and we can jump into it.
dave_ (00:15.401)
Awesome, thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it. And I'm super excited for this conversation. I love to talk about all this stuff. So Dave Fanno, career pivoter. I was originally trained as an architect because my dad told me that was a real job and being a comic book artist was not. So always kind of like the creative kid. Hey, it's not too late. It's not too late. It's still on the table as possible. That and being a French bulldog walker.
angela_r_howard (00:32.775)
Why did you become a comic book artist? I would love to see that
dave_ (00:43.321)
are the kind of two things that are on my list of eventual careers. But have done a lot of different things, worked in traditional architecture, went to a lot of schooling for that, worked in an architecture firm, realized that I like building, not buildings. And buildings just take too long to build. And found technology and just really fell in love with the speed at which we can go from idea to something in people's hands that they could use.
angela_r_howard (00:43.527)
Love it.
angela_r_howard (00:58.239)
Mm.
dave_ (01:12.729)
and have just been continually exploring that in whatever way I could possible. And every time I found myself in a job that just, you know, the days, if there was more days in the week that I dreaded getting out of bed than there was that I didn't, I switched. And that meant quitting, selling my company, resigning from a big executive position, just like career unfulfillment. I've had a low tolerance for, and right now I'm sort of enjoying, you know, one of the most things I've ever, the most I've ever done in my career is, is building technology to help people grow their careers.
angela_r_howard (01:42.946)
That's wonderful. Well, I am very excited to talk about the tool that you've built. And I know we have some exciting news that we get to share that you are going to be announcing on this podcast. So we will get to that. But first, I want to ask you what makes you human? Because this podcast is all about building more human-centric workplaces. So what makes you human?
dave_ (02:08.929)
I was thinking about that question and I can talk about what makes me human right now. And I think that probably changes. So right now I'm a dad and a husband first. We've got two little girls, two little kids. In fact, the girls is irrelevant. But eight and three and they make me human. They make me feel everything I think that we're capable of feeling in all extremes. And an incredible partner.
that helps me navigate that. Before that, I think it's being a son and a sibling and all these, and then just working and identity and all these feelings, but like really processing those things. But I think right now, it's this responsibility to help these two young people be like positive contributors. That's I think what makes me most human right now.
angela_r_howard (03:02.926)
Yes, you're shaping minds and the future. And it's so amazing to see this upcoming generation. And even your kids, that's like the next generation. I don't know, what's after Gen Z? I don't even think we figured it out yet, but I'm just so optimistic because we're already seeing the shift in ways of working and kind of a non-negotiable integration with life, meaning, you know,
my livelihood, my life comes first, and work needs to fit into that equation. There needs to be some connection, some purpose. So tell me a little bit about, I guess, what your philosophy is around work. Because you come from a really interesting background, executive at WeWork, you started your own business. So how did that all shape?
your tool, because I do want to get into the tool, but I want to hear the philosophy and the thinking behind it.
dave_ (04:06.357)
Um, so through some combination of luck, you know, like, like what I was born into and stubbornness, I've just always had a very low tolerance for like not liking my job. And that's kind of woven through my whole philosophy around how I've built my career. And, and it's also in forms of what I want to enable for others.
because I see a lot of people in their careers feel trapped, and they don't feel like they can take control. The company decides or the situation decides or the context decides, and sometimes that's true. I don't want to pretend like this is unilaterally true, but I do feel that with the right resources and the right support, the majority of people can take control of their career, and that doesn't mean starting a company.
which I think also is something that I wanted to address. I think a lot of people think it's starting a company and honestly, sometimes you lose a lot of control when you start a company. And you lose a lot of agency in life. And so, but I always had like a real sensitivity to I'm not enjoying this, you know? And whether that was a relationship with a manager, the work I was doing and...
angela_r_howard (05:07.319)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (05:17.065)
Mm.
dave_ (05:23.253)
I would just always very quickly bounce back to get myself in a situation that I was enjoying what I was doing. Sometimes that meant leaving a job. Sometimes that meant having an uncomfortable conversation with my manager. But I've just always had a very low tolerance for not liking my work, which is a problem because I really like working. I really like making stuff. I really like being busy. And so when that is not like a source of energy for me, well, that's just kind of like...
kind of breaks everything for me. So I've just always been incredibly persistent around doing stuff that I enjoy doing with, you know, we're always gonna do things we don't enjoy. But like I said earlier, if that's like outweighs the things I do enjoy doing, then it's like, okay, it's time for a change. And that's just kind of been the philosophy I've taken all the way through.
angela_r_howard (06:10.41)
And what do you think causes, I guess, lack of agency? What do you think the factors, to your point, you had this natural sensitivity to, I'm not enjoying this, I need to make a change. What causes people to not feel that agency, do you think?
dave_ (06:32.309)
I think it's when I've thought a lot about this and I think it's when I'm losing my ability to decide if I do this or not. It's when I feel like I'm doing things out of obligation, right? There's like research that shows like people will volunteer for things and then once you pay them like 25 cents, they feel super undervalued, right? It's like you were just doing it for free. That's because I got to make that decision.
angela_r_howard (06:57.046)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (07:02.348)
Yes.
dave_ (07:02.581)
And now you've kind of put like a value on it and it's like gotten complicated. And so for me, what that means is like when I get to decide, when I feel, and I feel like, look, that's what we're seeing right now with the return to work is I think companies had no choice but to trust. And so if I needed to go to the doctor, I didn't have to ask for permission. If I wanted to walk my dog, if I wanted to go do my laundry, if I needed to just like run out real quick, I didn't have to ask. And once there's this idea of like,
angela_r_howard (07:19.956)
Hmm.
dave_ (07:31.473)
I lose my ability to act without this friction of permission. I think that's when that sort of leaves, when that falls out of alignment with the things I wanna do, then I'm just like, I feel like it starts to grind the gears a little bit and the bucket starts to fill up. And then at a certain point, people are just like, I feel completely out of control with my day-to-day life.
angela_r_howard (07:48.522)
Mm.
dave_ (07:57.589)
Right. And so that's why you hear things like work-life balance and it's like, it's really about trying to make this thing binary that's really not, but putting boundaries around what I control and what I'm willing to relinquish control on. But I think in ideal state, we wouldn't have to relinquish control on anything.
angela_r_howard (08:15.582)
Yeah, and that's a really, it's an interesting point because I think the employer-employee relationship has always been grounded in employer having a lot more agency, employee having less autonomy, right? And so do you think that is changing?
dave_ (08:34.005)
I do. I do think that's changing. I think that's changing for a lot of reasons. You know, I'd say the two big things that I'd say have happened, let's call it over the last 10 years. That's not a scientifically researched number, but it's a one ish is the workforce communicating.
angela_r_howard (08:51.91)
Ish. Just what we'll put Ish. Heh heh heh.
dave_ (09:01.501)
Right? Like within the company, there was all these like funky taboos where like we don't tell each other our salaries. We don't, you know, we don't say things because who knows now, you know, you've got generations listing out the more sort of younger generations listing out their entire salary history on TikTok. Right. So in
angela_r_howard (09:01.744)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (09:18.634)
Yeah, Google Sheets. People are putting together spreadsheets and sharing it. Yeah.
dave_ (09:22.525)
Exactly. So like information is power there. And that is an area where companies had a stronghold on information. And now that asymmetry is becoming more symmetrical. And so I think that's a big one. And then the other is the office, right, the physical constraint of this. And it's like, it's a system that we just inherited from like, post war, you know, like,
angela_r_howard (09:47.499)
Mm-hmm.
dave_ (09:47.669)
where we this nine to five thing. And so the world becoming more globalized, more 24 hours, this idea of like the work day is a weird thing that we've just kind of inherited and accepted. And I think that the idea of being able to work from anywhere, because I also think we've technologically proven that it's possible. I think a lot of companies relied on like, we can't. And say, well, you just did it for two years and you didn't go out of business. So that's no longer true. You can't use that as an excuse anymore.
You know, now it's become much more of a subjective argument. Well, I think we're more efficient. I think the culture is better. I was okay. That's fine. You can have your belief, but it is no longer. You cannot say can't be done anymore. Um, and so I think those two things have really. Like, um, brought things into a closer balance than they were before. Uh, and I think we're going to see the sort of repercussions of that for years to come.
angela_r_howard (10:46.702)
So what I'm hearing is things are changing. Employees are taking back maybe their autonomy or discovering their autonomy. Something's changing around the employer-employee relationship. The gap is kind of closing in on employers to wake up to this, right? I think employers who have functioned in a way that they did pre-pandemic or pre-pandemic specifically, I think, are going to be shocked as to why.
Why are we losing people? Why can't we find anybody? So this is a great segue into what you have created. So I will let you describe it, but we do have some, I mean, C-suite business leaders, but HR also listens to this. And the best way I can describe the tool is an applicant tracking system for employees, for job seekers. So, but I'm not doing it justice. So you tell us more, what is it about, and what is it about?
and how is it going to address this change that we're seeing?
dave_ (11:47.989)
Yeah, so broadly we think of ourselves as a personal career development platform. Right. Most things in the career space have been B2B and the consumer has been sort of inculcated into abdicating their career to HR. And so we know for a lot of reasons that's changing, right. The ideas of like pension and all those things are gone. But as a society, we've not adapted to that. Right. We still expect a company to give us our career pathing. We still give us a company to give us our promotion track. Our.
angela_r_howard (11:52.224)
Mm.
dave_ (12:17.817)
career ladder or career lattice or whatever an HR department's calling it, or banding, all those things. And that's great for the company's companies to do that. And that provides a lot of structure for the employee base. That's amazing. But ultimately, what I want to do for my career may not align with that. And companies have a ton of systems. They've got an HRMS, an ERP, an ATS, recruiting department, finance department, legal department, a legal department just focused on HR, like a lot. And at the end of the day, the employee has very little.
angela_r_howard (12:47.529)
Hmm.
dave_ (12:47.905)
when it comes to their career, which is interesting because when it comes to consumer tech, they've got, you know, you can get technology to monitor your glucose, even if you're not diabetic, you can get food recommendation apps, you can get something that manages your finance, you can get something that automatically unsubscribes you from subscriptions, like you can get an app for almost anything. But when it comes to your career, there's nothing on the consumer front. And so that's the gap we're filling. We are creating personal career development technology that stays with people from the day they start working to the day they retire to leverage.
collective infrastructure so people can pursue the things that individually matter to them. Because I also don't think that past attempts to homogenize the workforce work today. The workforce is much more diverse. What each individual needs is very different. And so when you try to collectively bargain, a lot of people are going to be unhappy with what is this middle of the road solution for everybody. It doesn't have to be that way because technology...
really allows us to do unique and specific solutions at the person level. And we see it in all of their aspects of lives and you can get the perfect song at the right time, somehow Spotify knows it. There's no reason that there shouldn't be tech that tells me today is the day to ask for a promotion. And this is the amount you should ask for, given the market conditions. There's no reason that can't exist. There just hasn't been fiscal motivation to make it happen because most things are B2B. And so at its core, that's what
I wanted to solve when I was leaving WeWork, I just felt that I felt this infrastructural disparity between me as actually a fairly well-off executive with resources and this big company. And they didn't do anything to make me feel that way. It's just kind of inherent in the system. And I said, this can't be because I have the resources, I have the means. What about the majority of people that don't? Right? They signed these employment agreements, they don't know what they agreed to. It could prevent them from working somewhere for a year. It could affect the whole trajectory of their life.
angela_r_howard (14:29.044)
Mm.
dave_ (14:42.961)
And they don't know and they don't know what they don't know and I said I'm a firm believer that technology can be a power for good and can enable a lot of people and so that's what we've set Out to build is Technology that really helps people navigate their career and we're very focused on the job search for now because we're saying where when's a moment In people's lives where they stop and say hey, I could use some help I could actually be a little bit more deliberate and intentional about my career It was the job search whether it's reactive or proactive, but it's kind of when
angela_r_howard (14:58.846)
Okay.
dave_ (15:12.257)
They say, I need to make a change, either forced layoff situation like that, getting fired or like, this just isn't the right situation for me. And I want to make a change. And a lot of people really endure that for a very long time because they feel like it's hard and it's scary and it'll be get better. And then before you know it, they're really unhappy and it's affected all aspects of their life. So it's really to empower people with that confidence to take control of their career and more tactically.
angela_r_howard (15:27.47)
Mm-hmm.
dave_ (15:38.613)
you know, it's tools like, like an applicant tracking system. It's like, you know, but it's like to be able to track all your opportunities and you don't miss anything. Automate resume creation, because that takes a lot of time. And I think that also holds people back tools to like track contacts, personality assessment for self-awareness and knowing what really matters to you. So, again, it's a lot of the tools that you would see a company have, but 100 percent focused at the individual level.
angela_r_howard (15:50.656)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (16:06.55)
Wow, it's so interesting because while you were talking, and we talked a little bit about this earlier because I mentioned employers have a social responsibility to provide a destination for your career, right? And you kind of push back on me to say, our responsibility is probably to give the information and the tools to the individual to have agency to make a decision. And so do you think, I guess my question is, do you think that
things like career development, training and development, career pathing, like is that going to look different within organizations with a tool like the one you have now, assuming we scale it and it's wildly successful, everybody has access to it. How does that change the world? How does that change the world of work?
dave_ (16:54.137)
And honestly, I don't think, if we think about what responsibility a company has, its responsibility is to stay in business and make money. Right? And if it doesn't, it goes out of business. Now we can argue about how much profit the CEOs are taking and things like that and how they choose to allocate their dollars. But ultimately, at its core, it's a living organism and its sort of Darwinistic goal is to survive.
angela_r_howard (17:05.737)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (17:16.765)
Mm-hmm.
dave_ (17:24.929)
And so it's gonna need to do the things. Now, when we think about what survival means, most companies need humans to do it. And so I think the companies that create and can take a longer term view and can understand that some of these things that are not immediate attract the kind of talent they need to achieve their success, they will do these things. But I don't think it's out of social responsibility. I actually think about it, it's like,
angela_r_howard (17:33.895)
Yes.
dave_ (17:52.061)
If you don't do it, you will not survive because it is what the market expects. Um, and so at least that's kind of what I'd like to see them do. And it's like the companies that don't behave in the way that the modern workforce expects just cannot get people to work there. And so by definition, they will. So it's like the best thing for them for their survival is to operate in a way that the modern workforce wants to participate in doing what they do.
angela_r_howard (17:57.79)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (18:09.14)
Right.
angela_r_howard (18:20.702)
Yeah, so it's, and this goes back to the point about the agency and how employees are becoming empowered and in power, you know, a bit with how the market is shifting and evolving. And so what is your message to leaders, to employers then about, because I don't want to go back to, I know we talked about your tool, the user experience, kind of the philosophy around it, but I want to go back to, you know, kind of the employer,
leadership part of this, which is, there's a whole group, I work with a lot of executives, a lot of organizations that just cannot wrap their heads around this idea of employee agency or autonomy. Because it's almost like, well, we don't trust them to do the right thing for us, right? So what's your message to them? And I guess any advice, I guess, for people who are trying to,
dave_ (18:56.546)
Mm-hmm.
dave_ (19:02.22)
Yeah.
dave_ (19:09.495)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (19:19.062)
change this in executives or founders or people who are building organizations and trying to change the philosophy so we can match what the market is expecting.
dave_ (19:28.745)
Yeah, so I think you said the word. Like, the word is trust. I think that, like, a fundamental attribute of, like, the corporate construct is mistrust. It's this idea of assume worst intent, you know, the sort of CYA, cover your ass, sorry, for the family audience, the kind of mindset, you know? And so everything is about assuming the worst.
angela_r_howard (19:32.406)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (19:52.83)
Yeah. No, no, no. Swear all you want.
dave_ (19:58.749)
unlimited vacation where they're just never gonna come to work. If, you know, if we, you know, put snacks in, they're just gonna take them all and steal them. And, you know, so it's this kind of like optimizing, because those things do happen and there are bad actors, but what happened, what's happened is that the whole system has sort of penalized all the good actors for that very small percentage of bad actors. And it's, and what we're seeing now is that
The good actors no longer want to tolerate that. And so the companies that can actually operate from a place of trust and just understanding those things are gonna happen. There is no way to prevent all those things from happening. But if you're clear, you know, and so that's, I really like buy into a lot of the things that Netflix publishes. You know, I've never worked there. I've heard from people that work there that it's great, but you never know. But I do like the way that they talk about it is treating people like adults.
angela_r_howard (20:49.436)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (20:57.09)
Yes.
dave_ (20:58.825)
and trust. And so here's a little microcosm of the way that I've done it and that I think is very counterintuitive. But now when I interview people, I send them the interview questions in advance. And even that reaction, like, wow. It's like, why is it that we have this belief that I'm supposed to surprise you with these things that you've never seen before? And then kind of like, gotcha. It's like, wait, this is actually like, and like, well, they're gonna cheat.
angela_r_howard (21:09.1)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (21:12.876)
Mm-hmm.
dave_ (21:27.097)
Well, that's exactly what I want. Like the person who prepared is like, that's the person I want to work with. The person that actually took the time, it's like, that's not cheating, that's preparation. That's actually what I want. So it's the inverse. We have all these things that I think are just like, fundamentally backwards, but we've just been doing them for so long that they feel crazy. And so I think it's kind of like going back to like, our core roots as a species and relationships. And I don't think companies are like families. That's not at all what I'm saying.
angela_r_howard (21:38.614)
Hmm.
dave_ (21:57.401)
But like treating humans on a human level and it's not about like Tricking you into a situation to see how you perform on your feet because that's just not true. We don't work that way, right? So I think there is providing transparency But actually I think there's an important distinction there at least a learning for me is like opt-in transparency
So I think opt out transparency is not great because then you inundate with people, information they don't wanna know. But more that if an employee wants to know something for 99% of the things of a company, they should be able to, because that's what allows them to plan, right? It's against that information asymmetry. Well, I don't know how much money the company has in the bank. Well, we shouldn't tell them because then they might quit. Well, then yeah, right. If that makes them uncomfortable that this company is like running on a razor's edge budget, they should get to know that. And some people are gonna opt in.
angela_r_howard (22:43.944)
Mm-hmm.
dave_ (22:50.009)
Some people are like, that's cool, I like that. That's a challenge. Sign me up, big, high risk, high reward. But for other people, that's not. Now let them decide. That's like a mistake I've made. I used to share at the company how much money we had in the bank with everybody. And for some people, they were just like not interested in knowing. So that's okay, make it their choice. But equip people with the information, trust them that they will do what's right for them. And then that's where they go back to having that sense of agency. And you're not leaning on these tricks.
angela_r_howard (22:50.217)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (23:01.838)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (23:15.955)
Yes.
dave_ (23:19.637)
retention tricks, a 10-year bonus. It's like, no, I'm not gonna bonus you for staying a year. I'm gonna try to make it as awesome as possible for you to work here with what's within reason that we can afford as a company. And if that doesn't work for you, having you feel obligated or tricked into staying here, nobody benefits from that. And I'm not getting the real-time feedback to know. People are leaving. So it's like, oh, well, then something's not working. Because I also think companies put up these...
angela_r_howard (23:19.775)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (23:31.871)
Mm-hmm.
dave_ (23:48.513)
These things that give them a false sense of security. It's like, oh, but everyone's happy. It's like, no, they're not. You've like modeled a whole compensation package where they shut up, they stick around, they don't say anything. You wrote it into your employment agreement that they're not allowed to talk about comps. So you've like lied to yourself that everything's great. But if you took all that off, you know, how many employees, you know, if you said, hey, everyone, two months severance, you can leave if you want. How many people are taking that package? How many people aren't? Right? It's like, those are the kinds of things that I think, yeah.
angela_r_howard (23:53.376)
Yes
angela_r_howard (23:58.806)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (24:12.122)
Right. Yeah, I think Zap Zapos does that where they is it Zappos? Yeah, Zappos pays you
dave_ (24:17.449)
Yeah, they offer you, I think, after the first six weeks, like a few hundred bucks or a thousand dollars to leave or something. Yeah, I think it's that level of. Commitment to.
angela_r_howard (24:22.72)
Exactly.
angela_r_howard (24:29.051)
Mm.
dave_ (24:32.065)
due to the relationship and that doesn't mean that like the standard is different for everyone, right? Some companies, like I think Amazon, say what you will about them. I think they're very upfront about who they are.
angela_r_howard (24:33.788)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (24:43.478)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
dave_ (24:44.597)
You know, and that may not be for a lot of people, right? And obviously it's very different in the warehouse where it is in the office, but like, you know, like I couldn't work at Amazon. The idea that I'd have to write a six page memo before as like a partially dyslexic person who like doesn't read well, it's like, I would not do well in that environment. I'm not like, I'd have to sit and read a thing for 15 minutes before we can talk. Like I'm a talk to think person, but Hey, that's who they are. That doesn't mean that I should expect them to change for who I am, you know? But then, so I think like,
angela_r_howard (24:55.921)
Ha ha.
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Mm.
angela_r_howard (25:09.646)
Alright.
dave_ (25:13.857)
being communicative, being honest about who you are as a culture, and letting people opt in and opt out of that. I think it's when people sort of pretend that there's something and then people get in, it's like, wait, this isn't like that at all. And so I think that the gap between what you say and what you do, it used to be able to be bigger. Now it can't. Now it's like, you really have to be authentic. So I think authenticity, trust, those are key and people have a very low tolerance for
angela_r_howard (25:24.042)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (25:44.406)
And that's culture, right? So my background's in organizational psychology. I work with companies on changing their culture, transforming their culture. And I think we have a lot of perspectives of what culture is. It's like this fuzzy, you know, this fuzzy word. And a lot of people think it's office culture or it's the values we put on our wall. But at the end of the day is, are your words matching your actions? And what's the cognitive dissonance between those two things?
dave_ (25:59.106)
Mm-hmm.
dave_ (26:10.241)
100%.
angela_r_howard (26:13.35)
If you're saying you're an inclusive culture and environment, but the executives lock themselves in a room for two days and don't tell anybody about what's happening with the company, that's not inclusive or transparent. So it is just, and it's about making things brain friendly, right, to your point, which is like, we don't have to hide things and have our brain do cartwheels. That's when people start to,
dave_ (26:32.61)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (26:43.822)
be unhappy at work, when I have to go through, I can't do my best work because my brain's constantly doing cartwheels about how to behave in this situation or how to change myself in that situation. I just wanna do good work, right? I just wanna leverage the talents that you hired me for rather than thinking over and over again how I should react to this situation because your words aren't matching your actions.
dave_ (27:05.281)
Yeah, and I think another thing that has company scale is critical, given that the employee now is much easier for them to leave. And so the things that you used to be able to get away with as a company and people would tolerate because they felt like they had to, there's just much less forgiveness for that. So another one is alignment. I think what I've seen is the more unaligned companies are, the more turmoil and...
angela_r_howard (27:14.855)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
angela_r_howard (27:26.698)
Mm-hmm.
dave_ (27:33.521)
agita like there is in the culture. It doesn't mean that the top like all it doesn't have to be a great message. Look, I mean, I don't work at Tesla, but I feel like I don't agree with 99% of the ways that Elon Musk wants to run a company. But it's clear. Like, you know, he's clear, you know, he's clear the way he wants to run it. And I would imagine that like, there's alignment, you know, again, I don't agree with that alignment.
angela_r_howard (27:35.362)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (27:49.674)
Yeah, he's pretty open about it. Yes.
angela_r_howard (27:57.75)
Well, it's interesting because it's just yesterday. I think there was an announcement that he, and I don't have any verified facts around this, but I saw an image that Elon Musk basically asked everybody to come back to the office for 40 hours a week. And if you don't wanna do that, then you can leave. So, at the end of the day, it's very clear. Is it the right thing to do? I don't think so, because I think he's gonna lose a lot of people, but.
He has given the, he has been clear versus a lot of companies right now are also saying, oh yeah, we're hybrid, but secretly you're not gonna get, you know, the perception is, right? Like that's the mental cartwheels I'm talking about.
dave_ (28:34.487)
Exactly.
dave_ (28:38.369)
I think that's worse. And so as an employee, I'd rather the Elon situation, now I would opt to leave because that doesn't work for me, but it's clear. Whereas the other one, I'm like, oh, look at that. It's so great. And like six months later, you know, it's just that like paper cut after paper cut after paper cut. And I'm just like, oh, this place is full of it. Now I'm like full of resent and like anger. And I've like ruined a bunch of relationships even because I was sort of misled.
angela_r_howard (28:47.134)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (28:58.715)
Great. Yes.
angela_r_howard (29:07.414)
Yes.
dave_ (29:07.797)
And I think that's like what you're gonna see is, you know, like you got one department that says like, this is what we should do, but there's like a fundamental disbelief. And so I think alignment is really, really key because people talk more than ever and people get upset. And you know, you have like the whole workforce on Slack and people chatting and people are, you know, so this idea of like the employee base, like not talking to each other before.
angela_r_howard (29:18.21)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (29:27.391)
Mm.
dave_ (29:35.465)
out of fear, like there wasn't the channels to do it because you were now I do think people grossly underestimate how much a company can track slack like I think with email they thought it was like an official form of communication and they think of slack as like a chat it's like it's just as official so don't say anything stupid there but anyways I do think you know but also like people chat on like they become friends on social networks they exchange
angela_r_howard (29:46.478)
Oh. Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (29:53.214)
Yes.
dave_ (30:00.077)
You know, everyone's got a mobile phone now and everyone exchanges text messages where before you would have to like call my house, you know, and you had a landline. And so I just think like our level of connectivity is higher than ever. And so I think companies, this idea of like, to your point, like saying, you know, doing what I say, you know, you have to be authentic. I think the tolerance for it for inauthenticity is very low.
angela_r_howard (30:25.258)
Yeah, and it's kind of, we're in a consumer market, so it's like, well, you told me all these things, right? It's like, when you go out to buy something, you see the description, you told me all these things and what it can do and what you're gonna do for me, and then I get here, I buy the product, and it's shitty, it doesn't work. So it's the same thing. We expect to, I love how you said that the gap is narrowing, right, on that disparity.
And I think it's gonna be pretty, pretty darn narrow, I think, as we move forward, because people aren't going to expect.
dave_ (31:01.193)
Yeah, and like I said, it's this idea that employees were kind of like trapped, right? So one stigma you had or taboo or whatever was this kind of like, you need to stay there for two years. So companies had this going for them that people out of their self perception was like, I got to stick it out for two years, even if this place sucks. That's going away. So now, you know, companies got this like free pass for two years.
angela_r_howard (31:14.925)
Mm-hmm.
dave_ (31:31.413)
You know, now that's going away. Now I think like, now that's 12 months. And so that means someone's job searching six months after getting there if they're not happy. And you can also job search while employed, right? I mean, you know, it's much easier now. You know, I think when you started a job, it's like, well, if I leave for like a long lunch, that's just gonna be weird. And remember, it had to be jobs that were like in like driving or walking proximity to your current employer. Now with remote work,
angela_r_howard (31:51.902)
Mm-hmm. Nice.
angela_r_howard (31:57.747)
Mm-hmm.
dave_ (31:59.849)
I could hop on a Zoom for a job that's across the country and not miss a beat. Like I can weave that between two 30 minute meetings, 15 minute meetings. I can do a 15 minute screener in a phone booth, you know? And so with remote jobs and like the supply of employment opportunities expanding, that fundamentally changes the dynamics of kind of work opportunities to workers. And I think that...
angela_r_howard (32:04.738)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (32:08.523)
Mm-hmm.
dave_ (32:27.837)
adversely affects companies and very positively affects the workforce.
angela_r_howard (32:33.822)
Yeah, and it's kind of, I was reading some of your work and one of the things I read was fractional employment, right, and we talked earlier about, you know, having autonomy and agency isn't always about just starting your own business. Now that's something that I did, but, you know, and that, you know, you did, but it's not always the answer to agency and autonomy. So I'm just really fascinated about this idea of fractional.
dave_ (32:42.437)
Mm.
dave_ (32:50.122)
Mm-hmm.
dave_ (32:58.082)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (33:02.386)
and what that means and how employers need to think differently about positions, right? Because I think generally they're like, we want somebody full time, we want somebody fully committed to our company, we don't want them in their brain on other things. So how, what do employers have to get ready for and how can we start to shift the narrative and get them thinking creatively about positions and slicing them up a little bit.
dave_ (33:28.737)
So I want to caveat this one as like, I feel I have like strong conviction on the solution to this. I have not been fully successful at implementing it yet. So because it's hard, but we need to move away from the unit of value being labor to the unit of value being output. So if I hire a fractional CMO.
angela_r_howard (33:37.538)
Mmm, that's good insight. Yeah.
angela_r_howard (33:48.273)
Mm.
dave_ (33:55.273)
Frankly, whether they work one hour, five hours, 20 hours in the morning, at night, across the country, it should not matter. What should matter is I've got clarity on my business objective, which is to grow at this rate, have this many leads, have this many impressions, whatever the metric is. If this person achieves, and we agree on commercial terms what we are willing to pay for that, right now you have an exchange of services at a price.
angela_r_howard (34:17.632)
Mm-hmm.
dave_ (34:24.733)
Ultimately, at the end of the day, that's it. Right? And it's a funny thing that happens, because when we work with contractors and consultants, we're totally fine understanding that. But when someone becomes an employee and the nature of the agreement becomes one that is a salary, now it's different. Now it's, no, now I just own your brain 100%. And so when you're in the shower, you should be thinking about me. When you're playing with your kids, you should be thinking about me. But that's irrelevant. It's like, am I getting the results?
angela_r_howard (34:33.25)
Hmm. Yes.
angela_r_howard (34:43.182)
Mm-hmm. Wait.
angela_r_howard (34:54.581)
Yes.
dave_ (34:54.689)
that I expect. So if I am paying, right, let's say a CMO at a Series B company is $300, $400,000. It's like, but I don't really need a CMO right now. Like I have a good, I can get away with half of a CMO. I was like, well, what is the results we need to see? Like what are the objectives? Right. And then people say, well, I don't know. So it's too hard. So I just want to buy the person 100% of their time. It's like, no, do the hard work. Like understand what success looks like, have clear empirical objective understanding.
angela_r_howard (35:02.024)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (35:11.063)
Mm.
dave_ (35:24.113)
If the services you're paying for are yielding the results, then have a conversation if they don't. And so it's like moving towards a result. Because everyone can benefit from that. Because then you get to another word that's really important is the expectations. Right, because I think a lot of times when we see resent, it's misaligned expectations. I think I'm killing it for you. Well, I feel like this work is trash. And it's like, right? Like a lot of times there's numbers we can put behind this.
angela_r_howard (35:36.391)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (35:43.11)
Yeah. Right.
Yes.
dave_ (35:49.853)
And so I think the more you can make it less subjective and more objective, have clarity on like what are the outcomes you need as a business. And how do you acquire services to help you achieve it? Whether the person's salaried part-time, full-time, right? It's like, do they feel fairly compensated for the value they're delivering? And I think it's a little bit of a problem with the overall compensation discussion as well, right? We attach it to a title. A title is worth this much. It's like, the title is irrelevant.
angela_r_howard (35:54.864)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (36:06.003)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (36:15.303)
Yes.
dave_ (36:18.345)
If this CMO is really about employer branding because you've got a massive sales team and they're just not really driving the business, well, the fact that there are CMOs are irrelevant. Now if they are 100% of the source of the leads and they drive a ton of value and profitability, well, then they should have paid a lot. So I think there's also in this conversation of value and value exchange, having a very explicit understanding of what my value is, like what am I doing? How am I making the business better?
And if I help them make money or save money or whatever, what is my value to that? And so it becomes about these like, right, we don't have standardized service contract agreements because like, what's the value is that freelancer bringing or that consultant. And so I think we can move to a world of that, but it does require some transparency and insights, but I think also educating people on like what to ask. Cause those are really important. It's like, Hey, you're hiring me for this role. What does success look like in six months? If the company doesn't know, and like, well, we just think having a CMO is the right answer.
angela_r_howard (36:59.123)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (37:12.084)
Yes.
dave_ (37:16.373)
Well, it's probably not going to end well.
angela_r_howard (37:18.37)
Right. Yeah, and this is it's interesting because it's a very similar. So I've worked as chief people officer, you know, head of HR. And, you know, my philosophy has always been like a lot of the work that we do, and it's probably the same for a CMO, is you're building infrastructure, you're building capability into the company. It lives outside of you at some point. So there is the infrastructure part of the role, which is really time bound. Right. It's like.
12, 24 months, we're gonna build this thing, we're gonna skill up leaders so that they're good leaders and that lives outside of HR, but then there's the ongoing maintenance, which might be valued less. So I feel like the fractional, so two things just to kind of summarize is I think this idea of a talent marketplace and these fractional, maybe they're not fractional roles, maybe it is kind of this.
scope of work type of mentality around role, you know, even full-time roles, I think it's gonna become more prevalent. And people are leaving because they're seeking out experiences and things that are gonna benefit them. So I think employers need to be really cozy and comfortable with people leaving after 12 months.
dave_ (38:36.809)
Yeah, I think the big blocker is going to be a big blocker, not the big blocker. Is some of these like laws and things that have been created to protect the worker, they're now actually like hurting the worker. Right. Like, you know, if you wanted to put someone on a twenty thousand dollar a year salary with this understanding that they're only working like, let's call it like conceptually ten hours a week. Which so ten hours a week, that'd be, you know, an eighty thousand dollar a year salary on normal terms, but twenty, because you can't do that.
angela_r_howard (38:47.754)
Hmm, interesting, yeah.
angela_r_howard (38:56.942)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (39:06.91)
Right. Yeah, it becomes an hourly position and all that jazz. Yeah. Hmm.
dave_ (39:07.553)
Like they have to be hourly. Yeah. Right. They have to be hourly. And that comes from a good place. Like the origins of that are good, but then it does somewhat like complicate, I mean, look, there's solutions. You put them on 10 99, but then they have to pay self-employment tax and they have to become an entity and that's like complicated and that becomes another blocker and then now they're a business owner, so when they want to go buy a house, they have to prove that they're an owner and it's like really, really hard because all of our systems.
angela_r_howard (39:28.623)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (39:33.483)
Yeah.
dave_ (39:34.977)
favor that you're a full-time employee and you get a letter from your employer. So there's all these systematic things or systemic things that motivate certain kind of behaviors that are hard. And so it'll be interesting to see how we can adapt, how policy can adapt to the ways we want to work or the creative solutions people come up with. There may be a PEO for the fractionalized labor force. So it's like, fine. You hire...
angela_r_howard (39:38.679)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (39:42.89)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (39:56.866)
Hmm. Well.
angela_r_howard (40:01.92)
Oh?
dave_ (40:04.437)
super duper PEO, a fractional, we somehow figured out a way to, you know, put it together, it's a consulting agreement on a retainer. We then, we give this person a salary, which is the aggregate of the four places they're placed. And so that just might be like a solution that surfaces from more people wanting to do that.
angela_r_howard (40:12.43)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (40:22.662)
Interesting. Well, I am so excited about Teal and how that is driving some of the systemic and systematic things. It's a piece of the puzzle, but it's a big piece. And so tell us about your exciting announcement before we wrap up. I really want to hear what you're excited about, what progress is looking like, so that you can take over the world because we know that's the end goal, right?
dave_ (40:49.934)
Yeah, so we're in a category that doesn't really exist, this idea of personal career development. For the most part, that's just been education. The idea of there's personal finance has come about, personal, so many things. It's like I'm taking control of it. But when it comes to career, there isn't. And so...
angela_r_howard (40:56.47)
Hmm.
dave_ (41:15.481)
It's kind of a new category and the monetization is not obvious because the consumer is not used to paying for this. It doesn't exist. You ask anyone, hey, what app do you have on your phone to manage your career? And they say, I don't. I didn't even think I needed to do that. And so we've been really lucky to find investors to help us grow this vision and this mission of empowering people to grow careers on their terms. We want the...
angela_r_howard (41:21.67)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (41:26.07)
Yeah.
dave_ (41:41.581)
people to take over the world and the aggregate. We just want it to be a small part of enabling it to make it possible. And so we just closed the second round of funding with some really incredible investors that are, we closed our first round of funding right before COVID. We closed it in February of 2020. And so a lot of the things that we set out to do changed a lot, the world really, really changed. And we need more capital to keep on this mission. And so,
angela_r_howard (41:44.305)
There we go, love it.
angela_r_howard (42:05.158)
Mm-hmm.
dave_ (42:11.413)
We have some incredible venture capitalists to help us. City Light, Human Ventures, Rethink, and they invested $6.3 million into the company, which gives us a tremendous amount of runway. We're a small, lean team. Our tools are 100% free, so it gives us time to figure out the right way to continue to do good and do well and build a really impactful big company that helps a lot of people, employs a lot of people, and does really incredible things.
angela_r_howard (42:39.762)
That is amazing news. Well, congratulations, first of all. And I love working with talking with companies that are doing well and doing good. That is that is the that is the sweet spot. So before we wrap up, first and foremost, I want to thank you for your time. Thank you for sharing your insights. You've had this really interesting journey and you're building this tool that I think is going to.
change the narrative around work and around autonomy of your career. So I'm so excited for that. But what's one or two sentences just to wrap it up? Any other thoughts or things you want to close with?
dave_ (43:24.513)
When it comes to careers, like, give people grace. You know, I think careers are really complicated. I didn't really have a lot of empathy for this. And it goes in all sorts of ways. Telling someone you lost your job is shameful and it doesn't feel good. Telling someone that you want to get a promotion, also sometimes I'd be like, why are you so ambitious? Like, don't judge me. Right, so I think when it comes to careers, like, let people be them, reserve judgment, support them.
Because everyone's solving for something different. And you don't know. Context and nuance is so, so important when it comes to careers. So for the most part, not always, but for the most part, support people in the things they're trying to do.
angela_r_howard (44:08.554)
I love it. Well, thank you, Dave, so much for your time, your insights, your knowledge, and thanks for sharing it all with us.
dave_ (44:16.461)
Thanks so much for having me. This was awesome. I, you know, if I didn't do this, I'd be in HR because I really like it. So, so thanks for having me.
angela_r_howard (44:22.5)
Oh, well, welcome to my world. Thank you, Dave.
dave_ (44:27.574)
Talk soon, thank you.
