Up-and-coming HR with Project 2030

angela_r__howard (00:02.153)

All right. Hello. Welcome, Laura and AJ. What's going on? How are you both?

aj (00:04.141)

Hey.

laura_sukorokoff (00:08.883)

Okay, I'll start.

aj (00:09.762)

Yo, well, can we restart it? Can we restart it? Can we? We can cut it out. Ask us again.

angela_r__howard (00:10.766)

Okay, I'll start. You started Laura. We could cut this part off, no worries. We'll just take a pause. No, I think you should leave it in. It's like the blooper reel.

laura_sukorokoff (00:15.731)

That's so fun. No, I think you should leave it in. It's like the blooper reel. Okay. I'm doing so well. Angela, thank you so much for asking and thanks for having me here today.

aj (00:20.174)

What's that?

angela_r__howard (00:21.529)

You're doing so well. Angela, thank you so much for asking, and thanks for having me here today. Thank you. And how about you, AJ? How's it going? I'm doing well, as always. I appreciate it. Yeah, I'm good. Good, good. Well, I am really happy that we are gathering for this conversation. Laura and AJ, we've been in contact. And you all are doing some really exciting work in the area of, I guess I'm just going to say it,

aj (00:29.878)

I'm doing well as always, I appreciate it. Yeah, I'm good.

angela_r__howard (00:51.523)

I know that word is like so overused right now, but truly, doing a little bit of disruption, doing a little bit of new innovative, new and innovative things in this space. So maybe before we jump in, Laura, do you wanna start with a quick intro and then we'll bounce it to AJ? Oh, sure, absolutely. So my name is Laura Sikorikoff and I am the owner and I call myself the Chief People Maximizer

laura_sukorokoff (01:10.414)

Oh, sure, absolutely. So my name is Laura Sikora-Koff and I am the owner and I call myself the Chief People Maximizer of C-Change Learning and Development. What I do at C-Change is I focus on training soft skills to people primarily managers, because those are the people that most need to connect in and employ those skills to get great results. But really anybody can use it. They're certainly in demand skills. And...

angela_r__howard (01:22.083)

What I do at C Change is I focus on training soft skills to people, primarily managers, because those are the people that most need to connect in and employ those skills to get great results. But really anybody can use it. They're certainly in-demand skills. And AJ and I have connected over this topic of human resources, and in particular, helping people to become great human resources leaders.

laura_sukorokoff (01:40.07)

AJ and I have connected over this topic of human resources and in particular, helping people to become great human resources leaders. So I'll turn that over to back to you and to AJ for introductions there.

angela_r__howard (01:51.383)

I'll turn that over to back to you and AJ for introductions there. And you're the co-founder of Project 2030. Well, of course. Yeah. You're absolutely right. Don't sell yourself short now. Yeah, no, no.

aj (01:56.658)

And you're the co-founder of Project 2030 as well. No.

laura_sukorokoff (02:00.058)

Well, of course, yes, you're absolutely right. I was leaving that for you to say.

aj (02:06.09)

Yeah, no, no. No, I appreciate it. I guess I was gonna say I don't need to do an intro for the both of you guys, but it's not for you guys, it's for the audience here. So yeah, so my name is Anthony Vaughn. Most humans in life call me AJ. So now that you're listening, please call me AJ. What did I do? What am I about? Started a bunch of companies very early in my career, jumped in house to be ahead of people for a number of years. Now I'm back out. I was furloughed top of COVID.

angela_r__howard (02:09.137)

I guess I was gonna say I don't need to do an intro for the both of you guys, but it's not for you guys Yes, my name is Anthony Vaughn most humans in life call me AJ so now that you're listening, please call me AJ What did I do? What am I about? Started a bunch of companies very early in my career jumped in house to be ahead of people for a number of years Now I'm back out. I was for a little top of kovat And I run a holding company

laura_sukorokoff (02:14.251)

Yeah.

aj (02:34.958)

And I run a kind of a holding company, I guess we would call it, that's called the E1B2 Collective. It houses multiple brands, everything around it is to, you know, operationalize the world of work through employee experience, through putting employees first. And so I have this amazing company, Project 2030, that is co-founded by Laura. Angela and I have actually done some work at time to time together as well and some future projects going on down there.

angela_r__howard (02:38.491)

be too collective, it houses multiple brands. Everything around it is to operationalize the world of work through employee experience, through putting employees first. And so I have this amazing company, Project 2030, that is co-founded by Laura. Angela and I have actually done some work at time to time together as well, and some future projects going on down there. Got a lot of stuff going on. So I'm just trying to stay busy. I'm a very young man. I look like an old man though.

aj (03:00.334)

Got a lot of stuff going on. So I'm just trying to stay busy. I'm a very young man. I look like an old man though. And yeah, I'm just trying to survive and make things happen and help employees in this world.

angela_r__howard (03:07.134)

And yeah, I'm just trying to survive and make things happen and help employees in this world.

I love it. Well, I think something that we all have in common is, first of all, I think we're kind of veteran people, heads of people, focused on people-centered, human-centric workplaces. So, you know, as you all know, I also have a similar background where I'm a veteran head of people, but currently working on building my own firm, which is helping

to create more human-centric workplaces. So kindred spirits, for sure. Yeah, no kidding. Like-minded people, huh? Yes, yes. But also different perspectives and backgrounds, which is really, I think, the power of today's conversation. So AJ, I'm going to start with you this time. Can you tell us, and Laura, please jump in. Can you tell us a little bit about what is Project 2030? How did it get started, and what's the kind of intent or mission behind it?

laura_sukorokoff (03:47.158)

Yeah, no kidding, like-minded people, huh?

aj (04:12.13)

Yeah, let me, I'm gonna try to give you a alley-oop here in a second, Laura. Let me see how I can toss it up here. A number of years ago, I jumped into the graduate.

angela_r__howard (04:12.422)

Yeah, let me uh, I'm gonna try to give you a alley-oop here in a second Laura. Let me see how I can toss it up here. Um, a number of years ago, um...

I jumped into the graduate programs at university. So about 16 universities I was giving kind of keynotes, fireside chats for the graduate students around all things HR. But we were really focused on the things that you guys both know I love, which is more on the employee experience side, how to connect the business with the employee experience and things of that nature. Now, frankly, the fun stuff. A lot of the students in these term chapters, long story short, they were learning a lot of traditional HR.

aj (04:24.666)

graduate programs at university. So about 16 universities I was giving kind of keynotes, fireside chats for the graduate students around all things HR. But we were really focused on the things that you guys both know I love, which is more on the employee experience side, how to connect the business with the employee experience and things of that nature. Now, frankly, the fun stuff. A lot of the students in these term chapters, long story short, they were learning a lot of traditional HR. And so every time I would come in, their eyes would light up,

angela_r__howard (04:52.287)

in, their eyes would light up, they would be very fascinated by things like in terms of communications or employer branding or DENI and career mapping and all these other things. And inevitably what I figured out is that these folks did not have a clear understanding of how they were going to go from where they are now to inevitably becoming an executive in this space. Because it's not taught at the university level. They talk about, I think the highest thing they talk about is maybe HR business partner and that's even kind of

aj (04:54.62)

very fascinated about things like internal communications or employer branding or DENI and career mapping and all these other things. And inevitably what I figured out is that these folks did not have a clear understanding of how they were going to go from where they are now to inevitably becoming an executive in this space. Because it's not taught at the university level. They talk about I think the highest thing they talk about is maybe HR business partner. And that's even a kind of a stretch. It's typically a lot of HR

angela_r__howard (05:22.327)

HR generals type roles that they are alluding to. And so inevitably long, long story short.

aj (05:24.54)

And so inevitably long, long story short, my business cap came on a little bit and I said, I see a little bit of a gap here. And I said, no one really knows how to go from a generalist of seven years, eight years, nine years, 10 years, or a specialist or HR business partner or director to trying to take that first leap to becoming, you know, a C-suite executive, a head of people, a chief people officer. And I saw a gap there. I saw Sherm doing a little bit.

angela_r__howard (05:28.233)

My business cap came on a little bit and I said, I see a little bit of a gap here. And I said, no one really knows how to go from a generalist of seven years, eight years, nine years, 10 years, or a specialist or HR business partner or director to trying to take that first leap to becoming, you know, a C-suite executive, a head of people, a chief people officer. And I saw a gap there. I saw Sherm doing a little bit from teaching those little components of it,

aj (05:52.518)

from teaching these little components of it, but I didn't see a really clear connection of how they go from, again, seven years, eight years in the HR space, to then figuring out that they had the leadership and strategic abilities to then make that jump. There's a little bit more I wanna say, but I wanna toss it to Laura for a second to give a little bit more of a rounded perspective on the leadership aspects of it and what's exciting about the program from her point of view.

angela_r__howard (05:58.387)

of how they go from again seven years eight years in the HR space to then figuring out that they have the leadership and strategic abilities to then make that jump. There's a little bit more I want to say but I want to toss it to Laura for a second to give a little bit more of a rounded perspective on the leadership aspects of it and what's exciting about the program from her point of view. So when Anthony came to me thanks AJ when he came to me with this concept and when we started talking

laura_sukorokoff (06:18.51)

So when Anthony came to me, thanks AJ, when he came to me with this concept and when we started talking about human resources and why was it that there are so many people working in HR that never seem to make it into the C-suite, but more to the point, it is why is the voice of human resources so often absent from the C-suite? So we started talking about

angela_r__howard (06:28.127)

it that there are so many people working in HR that never seem to make it into the C-suite. But more to the point, it is why is the voice of human resources so often absent from the C-suite? So we started talking about the reasons why this could possibly be the case and we really felt

laura_sukorokoff (06:45.302)

the reasons why this could possibly be the case. And we really felt that it came down to a few different things. I mean, firstly, that people in human resources, how can I say this? It's not that they don't have the desire, it's not that they don't have the drive necessarily to move up the corporate ladder. It's rather that they're so often absent from the conversations. You know, these sort of strategic,

angela_r__howard (06:51.181)

that it came down to a few different things. I mean, firstly, that people in human resources, how could I say this? It's not that they don't have the desire, it's not that they don't have the drive necessarily to move up the corporate ladder, it's rather that they're so often absent from the conversations, you know, these sort of strategic, you know, overarching company decisions and,

laura_sukorokoff (07:16.594)

overarching company decisions and problems, they're so absent from the conversation and they really don't know what to say or how to be part of it, but also they're not really invited to be part of it. And so we took a look at that and thought, okay, that's a really big thing because I don't know, like,

angela_r__howard (07:21.057)

problems, they're so absent from the conversation and they really don't know what to say or how to be part of it, but also they're not really invited to be part of it. And so we took a look at that and thought, okay that's a really big thing because I don't know like...

laura_sukorokoff (07:40.398)

If I were to ask the listeners for a show of hands on how many people say their companies say their most important asset is their people, I would bet like, you know, almost 100% of people would be raising their hands. But these same companies that state that people are their most important asset, don't include the voice of the department that represents that asset. And so when AJ and I started talking about this,

angela_r__howard (07:40.889)

If I were to ask the listeners for a show of hands on how many people say their companies say their most important asset is their people, I would bet like almost 100% of people would be raising their hands.

But these same companies that state that people are their most important asset don't include the voice of the department that represents that asset. And so when AJ and I started talking about this, we realized that there is an opportunity here as AJ said, there's a gap. And we, you know, we need to do something about it.

laura_sukorokoff (08:09.022)

we realized that there is an opportunity here. As AJ said, there's a gap and we, you know, we need to do something about it. And so that's what we've said about to try to do is to help HR people move into those leadership roles, have that voice and that presence in the executive boardroom to start being not just part of the conversation, but drivers.

angela_r__howard (08:20.621)

And so that's what we've set about to try to do is to help HR people move into those leadership roles, have that voice and that presence in the executive boardroom to start being not just part of the conversation, but drivers of that conversation around that most important company asset.

laura_sukorokoff (08:38.394)

of that conversation of around that most important company asset.

angela_r__howard (08:45.769)

Yeah, and it sounds like, I mean, what you're really talking about between the two of you is you're creating a pipeline of more, I guess, C-suite level HR executives. But I think there's also an undertone that I'm hearing, which is we're not focused on traditional HR, right? I mean, I'm sure traditional HR comes into play because you need to know the basics of traditional HR. But what are some of the skills?

of work, right? Another big buzzword. What are some of the skills that you all are narrowing in on that your future C-suite HR executive is going to need?

laura_sukorokoff (09:25.533)

You want to start us off on that AJ?

angela_r__howard (09:26.017)

You want to start us off on that, AJ? Yeah, I'll start us off on that. And now I'll also probably tie in a couple angles of what's actually embedded in there, because I think it's a nice synergy. I'll start on something that's a little bit ancillary, not directly to your question, but something a little more ancillary. I think something that, Angela, you've done a phenomenal job that you've started to really put your foot on the gas here.

aj (09:27.062)

Yeah, I'll start us off on that. And now I'll also probably tie in a couple angles of what's actually embedded in there because I think it's a nice synergy. I'll start on something that's a little bit ancillary, not directly to your question, but something a little more ancillary. I think something that Angela, you've done a phenomenal job since you started to really put your foot on the gas here.

I did a lot of this coming into this space as well. I think the professional branding and development and personal brand of who you are in this space is more vital than ever. Companies at scale now are starting to appreciate.

angela_r__howard (09:48.397)

I did a lot of this coming into this space as well. I think the professional branding and development and personal brand of who you are in this space is more vital than ever. Companies. I think the professional branding and development

at scale now are starting to appreciate a head of people coming in with a little bit of an aura around them. I'm a young guy, so I'll use the word little bit of a swag to them, right? Little bit of a charisma, a personality, and a point of view. Because, and Angela, you know this, immediately when you jump into the role, you have to have a network, right? You call on an Alex, right? You call on other folks to bring them into the fold to do certain things, right? If you don't have a network, if you don't have a personal brand around you, how are you gonna gain the trust of someone to come in externally?

aj (10:02.858)

ahead of people coming in with a little bit of an aura around them. I'm a young guy, so I'll use the word a little bit of a swag to them, right? A little bit of a charisma, a personality, and a point of view. Because, and Angela, you know this, immediately when you jump into the role, you have to have a network, right? You call on an Alex, right? You call on other folks to bring them into the fold to do certain things, right? If you don't have a network, if you don't have a personal brand around you, how are you going to gain the trust of someone to come in externally and support you in building some initiatives?

angela_r__howard (10:29.443)

and support you in building some initiatives. Also, the organizations like to appreciate and know what you stand for. And so that's also baked into the program, right? I don't think there's enough folks coming from, again, being in the HR space for seven to 10 years. I don't think they're cultivating their points of views enough. They're individual contributors, they're generalists, they're specialists, they're HR business partners, they're inside the organizations, they're doing their work. And let's call it what it is. They're doing what behooves the company. They're not really scratching their head and saying,

aj (10:32.812)

appreciate and know what you stand for. And so that's also baked into the program, right? I don't think there's enough folks coming from, again, being in the HR space for seven to ten years. I don't think they're cultivating their points of views enough. They're individual contributors, they're generalists or specialists or HR business partners. They're inside the organizations, they're doing their work. And let's call it what it is. They're doing what behooves the company. They're not really scratching their head and saying, you know what, DE&I is actually really

angela_r__howard (10:59.623)

D and I is actually really important to me or you know what global HR compliance even though I know that's very boring to me Maybe it's not boring to them or I know certain folks really care about executive coaching and manager development and things of that nature And so that is one piece none of those kind of Secondary or kind of connected to your question But that is one piece that I think is missing is I want to see more HR folks that are trying to give this to the C-suite Really understanding who they are in this space and trying to find the right company

aj (11:02.672)

compliance, even though I know that's very boring to me, maybe it's not boring to them. Or I know certain folks really care about executive coaching and manager development and things of that nature. And so that is one piece. I know it's kind of secondary or kind of connected to your question, but that is one piece that I think is missing is I want to see more HR folks that are trying to get this to the C-suite, really understanding who they are in this space and trying to find the right companies that align with their points of views

angela_r__howard (11:29.323)

that align with their points of views instead of being what I think a lot of folks are saying, hey, I've been in HR for a while. What are your problems? I can do it. Let me just be another cog in the wheel here. Let me just be another member of the team. Try to find those opportunities and try to cultivate your perspectives around that work and try to find that marriage. So that's something that's baked into the program a lot. I don't know if you have any other thoughts on that Laura or anything else that's connected. Yeah, absolutely. There is another thing that I do

aj (11:32.732)

a lot of folks are saying, hey, I've been in HR for a while. What are your problems? I can do it. Let me just be another cog in the wheel here. Let me just be another member of the team. Try to find those opportunities and try to cultivate your perspectives around that work and try to find that marriage. So that's something that's baked into the program a lot. I don't know if you have any other thoughts on that, Laura, or anything else that's connected.

laura_sukorokoff (11:54.83)

Yeah, absolutely. There is another thing that I do want to say. So you're right. It is baked into our program. And before when I said, you know, we're looking to help these people to have a voice and have a presence in the executive boardroom. And that doesn't just happen. Okay. You know, if you are meek, if you are quiet, if you tend to just stay in your lane all the time, people will expect you to just be in that lane.

angela_r__howard (11:59.303)

into our program and before when I said you know we're looking to help these people were to have a voice and have a presence in the executive boardroom and that doesn't just happen okay you know if you are meek if you are quiet if you tend to just stay in your lane all the time people will expect you to just be in that lane and they don't really

laura_sukorokoff (12:22.838)

really, you know, business doesn't generally foster this type of thing that AJ's talking about, this idea of professional branding. They assume that this is something that you're gonna do on your own accord. And same thing, you know, some companies, and bless their hearts, you know, HR is the department that's responsible for this too, they're very involved in professional development pathing. Some companies are, most companies are not.

angela_r__howard (12:24.757)

You know, business doesn't generally foster this type of thing that AJ is talking about, this idea of professional branding. They assume that this is something that you're going to do on your own accord. And same thing, you know, some companies, and bless our hearts, you know, HR is the department that's responsible for this too. They're very involved in professional development pathing.

Some companies are, most companies are not, so let's make that apparent first. Most companies are not doing professional development pathing. Now we also have the problem of, what is that phrase, the cobbler's children have no shoes or whatever, you get my drift. Anyway, the department responsible for this professional development pathing, it often doesn't have the time to do that, especially not for themselves.

laura_sukorokoff (12:51.006)

So let's make that apparent first. Most companies are not doing professional development pathing. Now we also have the problem of, what is that phrase, the cobbler's children have no shoes or whatever, you get my drift. Anyway, the department responsible for this professional development pathing, it often doesn't have the time to do that, especially not for themselves. So we are offering that as a way for them to grow and develop.

angela_r__howard (13:16.885)

So we are offering that as a way for them to grow and develop. On the management leadership side, which is the side that's most near and dear to my heart, there's a huge gap between the time when people get their first people-leading role and the time when they get their first training on how to be a leader. The typical age of entry into a people-leading role is 30.

laura_sukorokoff (13:21.134)

On the management leadership side, which is the side that's most near and dear to my heart, there's a huge gap between the time when people get their first people leading role and the time when they get their first training on how to be a leader. Do you know that the typical age of entry into a people leading role is 30. The typical age that they get their first manager training is 42.

angela_r__howard (13:45.133)

The typical age that they get their first manager training is 42. So there's already a 12-year gap there. 12 years, they're fumbling around trying to figure out how to lead people. And then let's talk about a typical management training program. It spends very little time on the people.

laura_sukorokoff (13:49.142)

So there's already a 12 year gap there. 12 years, they're fumbling around trying to figure out how to lead people. And then let's talk about a typical management training program. It spends very little time on the people leading aspect and a great deal of time on the tactical and the technical side, you know, reporting, scheduling, you know, data analysis, all of that stuff. So they miss that critical component of how to lead people.

angela_r__howard (14:05.941)

leading aspect and a great deal of time on the tactical and the technical side, you know, reporting scheduling, you know, at data analysis, all of that stuff. So they miss that critical component of how to lead people. So that's a huge, huge part of our program. We've got that professional branding and career pathing. We've got the management leadership and we combine that with AJ's and my joint, how should I say this

aj (14:14.435)

one.

laura_sukorokoff (14:19.21)

So that's a huge, huge part of our program. We've got that professional branding and career pathing. We've got the management leadership and we combine that with AJ's and my joint, how shall I say this, passion for love of employee experience.

angela_r__howard (14:35.755)

love of employee experience. I love those. Yeah. Go ahead, Ager. Yeah, I was gonna add one more thing, right? Because what she saw also alluding to, what I think is really vital is, for the first time now ever, and Angela, I'm gonna toss this to you because I think you have a couple points of views around this. And actually, I'm gonna toss most of this to you because I think...

aj (14:38.296)

Yeah.

Yeah, I was gonna add one more thing, right? Because what she saw also alluding to, I think is really vital is, for the first time now ever, and Angela, I'm gonna toss this to you because I think you have a couple points of views around this. And actually, I'm gonna toss most of this to you because I think, I think, and I'm thinking, I think my background and the way I went into my role is not typical.

angela_r__howard (15:00.934)

I think my background and the way I went into my role is not typical.

aj (15:04.19)

So, and that's something I'm trying to be very empathetic around because for those listening, what I did is I kind of like bull rushed my way and I was like, this is exactly to the T of who I am, how the decision making ban was be laid out. Like I was very, very clear. And I've now learned that most humans and rightfully so, please don't be like me. Most people are better off being a little bit more timid, a little bit more patient, a little bit more methodical than bull rushing your way. And here's what I'm asking Angela here, which is, um,

angela_r__howard (15:05.737)

So, and that's something I'm trying to be very empathetic around because for those listening, what I did is I kind of like bull rushed my way and I was like, this is exactly to the T of who I am, how the decision making ban will be laid out. Like I was very, very clear and I've now learned that most humans and rightfully so, please don't be like me. Most people are better off being a little bit more timid, a little bit more patient, a little bit more methodical than bull rushing your way. And here's what I'm asking Angela here, which is.

aj (15:33.45)

So you have this opportunity, right? You spent the majority of your career as an individual practitioner, maybe even a manager to some capacity, but now this is your first time looking at CEO directly in his or her eyes, trying to get an initiative across the finish line, trying to get them to give you more financial bandwidth, trying to get them to write the check to build in a team around you, trying to, again, get things green lighted, get things that are red light to green light, maybe even to yellow light, to start dabbling into some things.

angela_r__howard (15:35.711)

this opportunity right you spent the majority of your career as an individual practitioner maybe even a manager to some capacity but now this is your first time looking a CEO directly in his or her eyes trying to get an initiative across the finish line trying to get them to give you more financial bandwidth trying to get them to write the check to build in a team around you trying to again get things green lighted get things that are red light to green light maybe even to yellow

aj (16:01.934)

That communication, that drive, that initiative, that hustle, that ability to put together a deck, a presentation.

angela_r__howard (16:06.272)

That drive, that initiative, that hustle, that ability to put together a deck, a presentation.

aj (16:12.61)

I could be wrong. I don't think they're teaching these folks that are in these generalists and specialist roles how to do that enough and to have the confidence to look a CEO in the face and say, this is what we need unless, and then this is kind of the crazy part of me kicking in, unless you're willing to fire me, I'm standing on this very strongly here. Like we need this to happen. I think we finally saw a little bit of that.

angela_r__howard (16:14.501)

I could be wrong. I don't think they're teaching these folks that are in these generalist and specialist roles how to do that enough and to have the confidence to look a CEO in the face and say this is what we need unless and then this is kind of the crazy part of me kicking in unless you're willing to fire me I'm standing on this very strongly here like we need this to happen. I think we finally saw a little bit of that.

aj (16:34.33)

You know from the from the George Floyd situation moving into the D&I heads of people like no like this is like you're bringing someone in here to talk about these things but that's probably another podcast for another day. So finally my question you know how do you do that Angela because I think you probably have a point of view around that that's baked into the program I don't think folks are being taught that and that is vital for the head of people role.

angela_r__howard (16:36.345)

from the George Floyd situation moving into the D. Now I head to people like, no, this is like you're bringing someone in here to talk about these things, but that's probably another podcast for another day. So finally my question, how do you do that, Angela? Because I think you probably have a point of view around that that's baked into the program. I don't think folks are being taught that, and that is vital for the head of people role.

Yeah, it's absolutely crucial. I mean, and I actually can, I can think back to what was the skill? Like what was the experience that really got me what I needed to be able to do that? And it's stakeholder management. I mean, I led company-wide programs at Walgreens cross-functionally for 220,000 people. So I would work on these large programs. I wasn't a people leader,

work across pharmacy and talent management and operations and merchandising and I had to I had to manage all of these personalities and stakeholder groups and use kind of a people readiness or change management methodology to get something across the finish line. I couldn't just say we're doing this and you know you know suck it up. That didn't work very you know that wouldn't

angela_r__howard (17:58.183)

listen, be empathetic to these stakeholder groups. Although I wasn't in a people leadership role, I was leading people. I was herding the cats, per se, to get something across the finish line. So it was project-based. It was program-based. But then I entered, I was at Kaiser Permanente. I built from scratch my first team of people under me. And because my background's in business psychology,

what I needed. So that paired with having all this program management experience and now you know working with a company and sitting on the executive team all of that kind of thing built on each other over time and really kind of created the skill set for me to be able to have those stakeholder conversations and to be able to meet people where they are because you have to realize you know

laura_sukorokoff (18:56.59)

Thanks for watching.

angela_r__howard (18:58.423)

team for example, for me I'm working with five brothers who own the company and they're very passionate because their father started the company and it's their company and you have to remember that too, right? You can only be as helpful as your recommendation and also your strong advocacy. Now if it gets to ethics, right? Like AJ, like if something's against my ethics you know me. I'm gonna

laura_sukorokoff (19:12.925)

Okay.

angela_r__howard (19:28.043)

day you could be really passionate about something but the ability to influence is really key but also the ability to let go is really key. So and AJ you've heard me talk about this a lot but I don't know Laura does that resonate with you? I guess if you've worked with executive teams? Oh absolutely.

laura_sukorokoff (19:45.85)

Absolutely. One of the challenges I think a lot of people face is that they either don't get the opportunity to connect with people from all kinds of different departments and different geographic areas or what have you, depending on the setup of the company, but they also don't have the ear of the C-suite. So they can't just go to them and talk about topics, liaise about this.

angela_r__howard (19:47.941)

You know, one of the challenges I think a lot of people face is that they either don't get the opportunity to connect with people from all kinds of different departments and different geographic areas or what have you, depending on the setup of the company, but they also don't have the ear of the C-suite. So they can't just go to them and talk about topics, liaise about this. So they really are, again, they're sort of encouraged to.

laura_sukorokoff (20:13.726)

Again, they're sort of encouraged to stay in their lane, to stay in their role. And this happens with HR so frequently because they are considered, rightly or wrongly, now, hey, I have a decades long career in learning and development, and I have absolutely felt this on both sides. You know, we are in departments like Human Resources, like Learning and Development, we're sort of encouraged.

angela_r__howard (20:16.321)

to stay in their lane, to stay in their role. And this happens with HR so frequently because they are considered, rightly or wrongly, no, hey, I have a decades long career in learning and development, and I have absolutely felt this on both sides.

You know, we are in departments like human resources, like learning and development, we're sort of encouraged to just, you know, be the order takers, be that center that carries out what other people want, right? We are dictated to and we make our best efforts to carry this out. But when you can get into this area.

laura_sukorokoff (20:42.062)

to just be the order takers, be that center that carries out what other people want, right? We are dictated to and we make our best efforts to carry this out. But when you can get into this area where you can have these conversations with the strategic decision makers or when you can be part of creating those strategic decisions yourselves.

angela_r__howard (21:00.345)

where you can have these conversations with the strategic decision makers or when you can be part of creating those strategic decisions yourselves, that then allows you to take on a whole new level of program creation and content delivery in the case of learning and development and...

laura_sukorokoff (21:09.866)

That then allows you to take on a whole new level of program creation and content delivery in the case of learning and development and produce things that not only are exactly what the employees need, but they help drive innovation, inspiration, revenue for the company. So there is a real win in there to having HR people really well connected.

angela_r__howard (21:21.125)

produce things that not only are exactly what the employees need, but they help drive innovation, inspiration, revenue for the company. So there's a real win in there to having HR people really well connected, really aware of what's going on through the entire organization, and having that management wherewithal. See, you came by it. Angela, you developed that in yourself.

laura_sukorokoff (21:38.954)

really aware of what's going on through the entire organization and having that management wherewithal. See, you came by it. Angela, you developed that in yourself. And if you were to take a look at your colleagues, your industry colleagues, you will see that, yes, there are many of them that do have that same drive, but there's probably a much greater number that just don't know where to start.

angela_r__howard (21:50.213)

And if you were to take a look at your colleagues, your industry colleagues, you will see that, yes, there are many of them that do have that same drive, but there's probably a much greater number that just don't know where to start. And that's what we're hoping to help with, with Project 2030. We want to give them a great start. We want to give them this foundation to

laura_sukorokoff (22:05.642)

And that's what we're hoping to help with, with Project 2030. We wanna give them a great start. We wanna give them this foundation to develop themselves and to blossom and grow and to become those real assets to the organization that they are meant to be. For me, that's my driver.

angela_r__howard (22:14.533)

to develop themselves and to blossom and grow and to become those real assets to the organization that they are meant to be. For me, that's my driver.

aj (22:23.026)

And Angela, if I will, and Laura knows I'm not joking about what I'm gonna say here. Laura, I mean, how many times did I mention Angela as kind of like the prototypical example of what I was seeing in my mind as far as how this program will be designed and built? And here's where I'm going along with this.

angela_r__howard (22:25.637)

And Angela, if I will, and Laura knows I'm not joking about what I'm going to say here. Laura, I mean, how many times did I mention Angela as kind of like the prototypical like example of what I was seeing in my mind as far as how this program would be designed and built? And here's where I'm going along with this. Angela, you did something very similar to what I think I did, and this is what I think really needs to be embedded inside this program.

aj (22:42.77)

Angela, you did something very similar to what I think I did, and this is what I think really needs to be embedded inside this program. So everything Laura just talked about as far as leadership, as far as presence is impactful, because I look at that as kind of like the ground floor, like if you don't have that foundation, I don't care if you have all the chops in the world to be the best HR leader in the world.

angela_r__howard (22:55.431)

presence is impactful because I look at that as kind of like the ground floor like if you don't have that foundation I don't care if you have all the chops in the world to be the best HR leader in the world you're gonna freeze up when it's time to step up to the plate you're not gonna understand how to get the buy-in and you can have all the skills and talents in the world but at the end of the day you may not get past being an HR business partner or HR director or in some cases you know the generalist role still gets going

aj (23:05.186)

you're going to freeze up when it's time to step up to the plate. You're not going to understand how to get the buy in and you can have all the skills and talents in the world. But at the end of the day, you may not get past being an HR business partner or HR director, or in some cases, you know, the generalist role still gets thrown around there. Cause you just may be good at a lot of things in HR tactically, but the strategic leadership presence part maybe isn't there. So everything Laura is very passionate about. And so am I. I think that is kind of like the ground.

angela_r__howard (23:25.191)

because you just may be good at a lot of things in HR, tactically, but the strategic leadership presence part maybe isn't there. So everything Laura is very passionate about, and so am I. I think that is kind of like the ground level that under the HR, every person that wants to aspire to be anything at a C-suite level in business, period, needs to kind of understand, right? So that's the ground floor. The reason why I use you, Angela, as a pure example is because you did something, I think,

aj (23:35.08)

level that I don't think he tried every person that does that wants to aspire to be anything at a C-suite level in business period needs to kind of understand right? So that's the ground for

The reason why I use you, Angela, as a pure example is because you did something, I think, very similar to what I did, but in a more graceful way, if you will. So when I walked into my first time as a head of people, and frankly, if I'm being honest, guys, kinda like my first time ever being, I'm a horrible employee, by the way, so my first time ever kinda being an employee is I walked in and sat with Kevin and Naya very directly and baked out my entire role A to Z.

angela_r__howard (24:06.738)

I'm a horrible employee by the way. So like my first time ever kind of being an employee is I walked in and sat with Kevin and Naya very directly and baked out my entire role A to Z. Here's the things that I'll be responsible for. Every manager, director, and executive will report to me around these 10 things. And I said, I'm going to be responsible for every single one of these things. And I said

aj (24:14.394)

Here's the things that I'll be responsible for. Every manager, director, and executive will report to me around these 10 things. And I said it in a way that was very direct, but I also said, if it's not for you, that's fine. Like, you know, mama raised the hustler here. I'm always gonna figure it out. Like, there will be a company that can find the right fit for me. Angela, I think you did something else that was very similar, but in a much, again, more graceful manner. The way you structured Jero with Dober.

angela_r__howard (24:25.031)

I said it in a way that was very direct, but I also said if it's not for you, that's fine. Like, you know, mama raised the hustler here, I'm always gonna figure it out. Like, there will be a company that can find the right fit for me. And so I think you did something else that was very similar, but in a much, again, more graceful manner. The way you structured your role with Dover, proactively, intentionally, in the very beginning, is also connecting to this program. We wanna help folks, once they understand

aj (24:43.11)

proactively, intentionally, in the very beginning, is also connecting to this program. We wanna help folks once they understand everything that Laura unpacked, which is the ground floor.

Then you understand some of the employee experience elements around how to strategically get these initiatives off the ground and build a team around you. And inevitably, kind of like the last piece of the program is like, okay, you have your ground floor, you have all the pieces around you, you know kind of what you care about. How are you going to look a CEO in his or her eyes and say, this is literally what I'm looking for and I'm not budging off of this?

angela_r__howard (24:55.191)

which is the ground floor. Then you understand some of the employee experience elements around how to strategically get these initiatives off the ground and build a team around you. And inevitably, kind of like the last piece of the program, it's like, okay, you have your ground floor, you have all the pieces around you, you know kind of what you care about. How are you gonna look a CEO in his or her eyes and say, this is literally what I'm looking for and I'm not budging off of this?

aj (25:19.946)

I'm gonna lay the, you know, I just laid it up for you. Angela, walk us through what you did, because you did something very impressive and interesting at Dover.

angela_r__howard (25:22.849)

I'm gonna lay it out, you know, I laid it out for you. Angela, walk us through what you did, because you did something very impressive and interesting at Dope. Yeah, I mean...

you know, when I applied at Dober, well, let's go back to the origin story. I'm going to be trying to spot by the way. No, no, that's OK. The origin story is, so, you know, I'm currently working with a midsize family owned chemical manufacturing business. I am on the executive team. I have a seat at the table, which is wonderful. And it was actually one of my requirements coming into the role. So I think one is having the confidence.

aj (25:35.098)

I didn't mean to put you on the spot, by the way.

angela_r__howard (26:03.335)

before you even accept the job to understand the structure and how things are going to work. So that was, you know, and it wasn't forceful. It was me saying, look, for me to have the, I've heard you, I understand what you need. Now for me to have an impact, this is what I need. I need to know what's going on in the business. I'm a business partner first and HR person second. So I need to be in those conversations and I need to be able to hear what's happening, connect the dots and make recommendations.

laura_sukorokoff (26:06.166)

Yes.

angela_r__howard (26:34.175)

The second thing was really realizing that a lot of times executives, CEOs don't know what they need and that's pretty typical. So it's your job as a partner to go in and for the first

you know, 90 days, I was just listening. I was interviewing, I was talking to people. I was identifying where are the biggest gaps. I didn't come with the list of this is what you need to do. I listened, I talked to people. Nej, I love your approach. I mean, if you're working with a blank slate, that could work, but for me, it's just the human brain is able to connect.

aj (27:00.036)

Hahaha.

angela_r__howard (27:19.049)

and buy in and commit if they know that you've listened to what they've said and They're you know, you're providing a recommendation that makes sense to them and it's like, okay So that's just listening having a listening strategy talking to every single team, you know, it's a small to mid-size company so I was able to talk to 95% of the team members and I came to the executive team with a recommendation I said

aj (27:25.078)

Listen to Angela, do not listen to me.

laura_sukorokoff (27:32.11)

Thank you.

angela_r__howard (27:48.423)

the areas that if you want to get the biggest bang for your buck, you need to focus on leadership first. You know, that was the biggest gap and a lot of companies have that gap too. So you know that you two are unusual in this, right? You know that, right? Tell us more. You should know that. Yeah. Go ahead, go ahead, Nora.

laura_sukorokoff (27:59.79)

So you know that you two are unusual in this, right? You know that, right? I mean, you should know that, yeah. Well, so what I'm getting at, and you know, I mean, hey, everybody listening to this, this is a casual discussion, so, you know, we can feel free to rebut, but I do wanna say that you two, and myself as well, I am a similar person in that.

aj (28:02.234)

Well, that was, that was... Go ahead, go ahead, Laura, go ahead.

angela_r__howard (28:10.505)

So what I'm getting at, and I mean, hey, everybody listening to this, this is a casual discussion. So we can feel free to rebut. But I do want to say that you too, and myself as well, I am a similar person in that I look at something and I go.

laura_sukorokoff (28:30.062)

I look at something and I go, somebody's gotta say something about this. And I happen to be somebody who knows what's going on in this particular thing. So if I hesitate to bring it up or what have you, then I'm doing a disservice to the company, to the leadership of the company, but also to myself, because I know how to fix this, or at least I know how to make it better. So I owe that to everybody.

angela_r__howard (28:32.929)

You know, somebody's got to say something about this. And I happen to be somebody who knows what's going on, like in this particular thing. So if I, you know, hesitate to bring it up or what have you, then I'm doing a disservice to the company, to the leadership of the company, but also to myself, because I know how to fix this, or at least I know how to make it better. You know, so I owe that to everybody to get that message out.

laura_sukorokoff (28:59.694)

to get that message out. But if we bring this back to HR, again, you two are sort of more, I think the exception than the rule. And I don't want to make it sound like HR people aren't career driven. It's just that as a function, departments like HR and learning are encouraged to kind of sit down and wait for those orders to be given to them.

angela_r__howard (29:01.741)

But if we bring this back to HR, again, you two are sort of more, I think, the exception than the rule. And I don't want to make it sound like HR people aren't career driven. It's just that as a function, departments like HR and learning are encouraged.

to kind of sit down and wait for those orders to be given to them. Whereas other departments like finance, you know...

laura_sukorokoff (29:27.998)

Whereas other departments like finance, you know, operations, they're encouraged more to share their voices. I think that comes down to understanding better those functions, meaning everybody gets the idea of what finance is supposed to do. Everybody gets what operations is about. They don't necessarily get the more soft and fluffy, if you will, although I hate that it's considered soft and fluffy.

angela_r__howard (29:32.713)

operations, they're encouraged more to share their voices. I think that comes down to understanding better those functions, meaning everybody gets the idea of what finance is supposed to do. Everybody gets what operations is about. They don't necessarily get the more soft and fluffy, if you will, although I hate that it's considered soft and fluffy, this less tangible people aspect.

laura_sukorokoff (29:55.926)

this less tangible people aspect. And so HR again is often relegated to this role of order taker and executor of decisions. And to be called in to talk about these things, to help shape policy within the company, to help shape innovation and strategic decision-making is fantastic. And so I think that is why we're actually seeing a renaissance.

angela_r__howard (30:02.667)

to this role of order taker and executor of decisions.

and to be called in to talk about these things, to help shape policy within the company, to help shape innovation and strategic decision-making is fantastic. And so I think that is why we're actually seeing a renaissance in HR right now. You know, we, Angela, you work with this all the time. I'm sure that you're very aware that there's a shift in thinking, and this isn't just because of the pandemic. It started pre-pandemic.

laura_sukorokoff (30:25.278)

in HR right now. You know, we, Angela, you work with this all the time. I'm sure that you're very aware that there's a shift in thinking, and this isn't just because of the pandemic. It started pre-pandemic, but there seems to be this renaissance, this idea of HR kind of stepping into its power. And if there is an upside to having a pandemic and to having the social injustice, you know, all of these things rising up,

angela_r__howard (30:39.387)

seems to be this renaissance, this idea of HR kind of stepping into its power. And if there is an upside to having a pandemic and to having the social injustice, you know, all of these things rising up, it is that finally HR is getting a spotlight on it. There is a really bright light being shone on HR right now.

laura_sukorokoff (30:54.802)

It is that finally HR is getting a spotlight on it. There is a really bright light being shone on HR right now and it's what they choose to do with it. How are they gonna step into this and really take advantage of it? But not only that, how are they going to drive change for organizations? And that's what we're hoping to do is help these people step into their power, step into their confidence, step into their leadership.

angela_r__howard (31:06.633)

And it's what they choose to do with it. How are they gonna step into this and really take advantage of it? But not only that, how are they going to drive change for organizations? And that's what we're hoping to do, is help these people step into their power, step into their confidence, step into their leadership, so they can help to drive these positive changes. Things like diversity, that is a key topic that we are going to be presenting in Project 2030.

laura_sukorokoff (31:24.414)

so they can help to drive these positive changes. Things like diversity, that is a key topic that we are going to be presenting in Project 2030. But we're going to be asking our participants to look at that topic from the point of view of leadership. What does this mean? We know what happened. Now, what does this mean to you and to your organization and to the...

angela_r__howard (31:37.307)

But we're going to be asking our participants to look at that topic from the point of view of leadership.

What does this mean? We know what happened. Now what does this mean to you and to your organization and to the actions you take moving forward on behalf of that organization? So I think there's some really cool things happening in HR. I think there's some great opportunity for the people working in it to really drive massive positive change in business. And I'm so looking forward to seeing that.

laura_sukorokoff (31:53.746)

actions you take moving forward on behalf of that organization. So I think there's some really cool things happening in HR. I think there's some great opportunity for the people working in it to really drive massive positive change in business. And I'm so looking forward to seeing that.

angela_r__howard (32:14.741)

Yeah, it is very exciting and it's about time. I mean, it's one of those things where HR people are like, hello, we've been telling you this for decades. And I do think it's two-sided though. I think that HR professionals need to become more strategic and step up and level up and become true partners to the business. And what I'm hearing is that is what this program is looking to do is to provide those skills for that.

And then two, one of the things I'll just mention in my own experience is, I mentioned you gotta meet people where they are, but you also have to meet the moment where it is. So what I find is, and I can't give you any scientific methodology for this, this is just what happens in my brain, but I am constantly, the ability to observe what's happening, because as HR people, we have this huge toolbox of things

could pull out and say, you should do this, you should do that. I am constantly scanning for moments to plug that in, right? And then also taking advantage of the moment that we're in to say, you know, here's an approach that we should take. And so I think that skillset, if we can somehow identify what that is in a methodical way, and I don't know what we call it, like meeting the moments, I don't know, AJ, what do you think?

aj (33:37.095)

could it's kind of it's kind of baked in and low we've talked about this I don't know if you remember when we unpacked this I know what you're alluding to and maybe unpack it a little bit more to make sure I'm going to the right track but when I was in the house and even kind of things that I've done with my own brands I kind of think of it like a quarterly a quarterly audit if you will

angela_r__howard (33:43.143)

we've talked about this, I don't know if you remember when we unpacked this, I know what you're alluding to and maybe unpack it a little bit more to make sure I'm on to the right track, but when I was in the house and even kind of things that I've done with my own brands, I kind of think of it like a quarterly.

aj (33:56.95)

Like I think, cause what I'm hearing is like, when I hear scan, I hear like kind of like Tomb Raider, like medical red eyes, like just scanning. I think, cause here's what happens, right? Here's the people listening. And again, you have folks here, two folks that are more highly decorated than me when it comes to like the pure deep essence of this world of HR, but I have a decent point of view. So here's one man's point of view. I think once you get into the work, whirlwinds start to happen.

angela_r__howard (33:58.753)

quarterly audit if you will. Like I think because what I'm hearing is like when I hear scan I hear like kind of like Tomb Raider like medical red eyes like just scanning. I think because here's what happens right here's the people listening and again you have folks here two folks that are more highly decorated than me when it comes to like the pure deep essence of this world of HR but I have a decent point of view so here here's one man's point of view. I think once you get

aj (34:27.138)

you start to wake up and you're like, how the hell did six weeks go by? You know, the CEO's pulling you, the CFO's pulling you, direct reports are pulling you, low level employees are pulling you, all different folks are pulling you, compliance issues, legal, all these things are happening. And what you're realizing is that you need to take a step back, you need to scan proactively at all times. And so, and I mentioned this, and somehow, some way we have to bake this into the program, but...

angela_r__howard (34:28.302)

uh, world wins start to happen.

you start to wake up and you're like, how the hell did six weeks go by? The CEO's pulling you, the CFO's pulling you, direct reports are pulling you, low level employees are pulling you, all different folks are pulling you, compliance issues, legal issues, all these things are happening, and what you're realizing is that you need to take a step back, you need to scan proactively at all times. And so, I mentioned this, and somehow, some way we have to bake this into the program,

aj (34:56.366)

There needs to be, and let me put this out here as well, because I've been getting some heat from folks. And Laura, you know what I'm about to say here. Laura and I are the founders, as well as in moments contributors in this program. But we are gonna make sure that active heads of people, folks that look like you and look hopefully like you want to be will be kind of teaching and talking about some of these variables. Because...

angela_r__howard (35:01.291)

to be and let me put this out here as well because I've been getting some heat from folks and Laura you know what I'm about to say here Laura and I are the founders as well as in moments contributors in this program but we are going to make sure that active heads of people folks that look like you and look hopefully like you want to be will be kind of teaching and talking about some of these variables because there is a certain way in angela and even if you can maybe dive into how

aj (35:23.278)

There is a certain way in Angelo and even if you can maybe dive into how you've done it. There is a certain way to do like a quarterly every six weeks kind of a scanning of everything. I don't know if it's a calendar that you have in the book with your CEO at all times. I don't know if it's kind of sitting down with other managers and having a criteria of like, hey, we're just going to go over these things. We're going to be super intentional. You know, we're going to be super kind of driven to kind of unpack these seven categories or these

angela_r__howard (35:31.591)

There is a certain way to do like a quarterly every six weeks kind of a scanning of everything. I don't know if it's a Calendar that you have in the book with your CEO at all times I don't know if it's kind of sitting down with other managers and having a criteria of like hey We're just gonna go over these things. We're gonna be super intentional You know, we're gonna be super kind of driven to kind of unpack these seven categories or these eight categories But there needs to be an audit like a scan if you will of what's happening

aj (35:53.132)

like a scan if you will of what's happening. And I think though, here's the big thing in Angela and in Laura, I'm sure you have experience in this as well. Once you do your audit, once you do your scan, you either A, you need to have the decision-making bandwidth to say, you see what we just uncovered from this unpacking? We didn't just like go through this exercise just to unpack it. Like I now have the ability as the head of people to like.

angela_r__howard (36:01.491)

Here's the big thing in Angela and Laura, I'm sure you have experience with this as well. Once you do your audit, once you do your scan, you either A, you need to have the decision making bandwidth to say, you see what we just uncovered from this unpacking? We didn't just like go through this exercise just to unpack it. Like I now have the ability as the head of people to like, now we're gonna do something. Cause all of us know, we've been inside an organization, we've done an audit and a scan and we've unpacked everything. We've sent over this beautiful deck

aj (36:17.182)

Now we're gonna do something. Cause all of us know, we've been inside an organization, we've done an audit and a scan and we've unpacked everything and we've sent over this beautiful deck or presentation or unpacking to our founder or our CEO. And they're like, great work, Angela, great work, Laura. We'll see if we have time to cover this soon. And it's like, hold on now, like we didn't just do this research for no reason. What are we doing about this? So.

angela_r__howard (36:31.111)

or unpacking to our founder or our CEO. And they're like, great work, Angela. Great work, Laura. We'll see if we have time to cover this soon. And it's like, hold on now. We didn't just do this research for no reason. What are we doing about this? It's like employee engagement surveys. You survey your people. Angelina knows how I feel about surveys. Yeah, right. You know what? When you were talking about it, all I kept thinking, AJ, was I'm sorry I interrupted you, but I have to say this.

laura_sukorokoff (36:45.291)

It's like employee engagement surveys. You survey your people and then, oh yeah, right? You know what? When you were talking about it, all I kept thinking, AJ, was, you know, I'm sorry I interrupted you, but I have to say this. I just kept thinking about, it's not, it's as much what you collect or sorry, it's more what you do with what you collect.

aj (36:45.838)

Hey Angel, how do you feel about surveys?

angela_r__howard (37:00.987)

It's not, it's as much what you collect, or sorry, it's more what you do with what you collect. You know, so it's great that you're taking in all this information. What are you gonna do with it? How are you going to use this to shape who you are and what, you know, I'm a huge fan of continuous learning. That's my way of saying, you know, you keep scanning things and then you do this audit, right? This continuous learning, I believe,

laura_sukorokoff (37:09.566)

You know, so it's great that you're taking in all this information. What are you going to do with it? How are you going to use this to shape who you are and what, you know, I'm a huge fan of continuous learning. I that's my way of saying, you know, you keep scanning things and then you do this audit, right? This continuous learning. I believe that everybody should be learning all the time. I mean, OK, yeah, I'm a little biased. I'm a learning and development professional.

angela_r__howard (37:30.125)

that everybody should be learning all the time. I mean, okay, yeah, I'm a little biased. I'm a learning and development professional. But I do believe that if you want to keep yourself, on the edge, on the leading edge in an organization, you have to constantly be learning. And I don't care what your role is. In fact, I think CEOs should be learning more than anybody else, honestly. But it is not just what you've learned.

laura_sukorokoff (37:36.994)

But I do believe that if you want to keep yourself, on the edge, on the leading edge in an organization, you have to constantly be learning. And I don't care what your role is. In fact, I think CEOs should be learning more than anybody else, honestly. But it is not just what you've learned, but then what do you do with it? Right, and AJ, I think this is where you are going with this. We're gonna have people challenging.

angela_r__howard (37:58.489)

But then what do you do with it? And AJ, I think this is where you were going with this. We're going to have people challenging our participants and saying, OK, it's great that you learned this. Now what?

laura_sukorokoff (38:06.826)

our participants and say, okay, it's great that you learned this. Now what? How does this shape what you do? So for example, if we give a homework topic, like, you know, take a look at your organization, take a critical look at your organization and tell us how does diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging happen in your organization and from a leadership perspective, looking through those lenses.

angela_r__howard (38:12.901)

How does this shape what you do? So for example, if we give a homework topic, like take a look at your organization, take a critical look at your organization, and tell us how does diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging happen in your organization, and from a leadership perspective, looking through those lenses, how is this working?

laura_sukorokoff (38:36.622)

How is this working for the company? Is it working for the company? What needs to happen to make it work? How can you effect positive change in your work? So it's scanning, it's seeing, and then it's taking it in, it's bringing it internal and doing something with it.

angela_r__howard (38:39.865)

for the company? Is it working for the company? What needs to happen to make it work? How can you effect positive change in your work? So it's scanning, it's seeing, and then it's taking it in. It's bringing it internal and doing something with it.

aj (38:56.707)

It's.

aj (39:02.182)

Thanks for watching.

angela_r__howard (39:02.485)

Yeah, you have to do something with it. And one of the strategies that I've been a part of, and I can't tell you how many times I had to raise my hand and say, include me, is the strategic planning process. Every company typically has a pretty developed strategic planning process where they're going, the CFO is presenting their strategic plan, IT is operations. And every time that I raise my hand and I say, I want you to hold me to the same state.

I want to have metrics. I want to have the same rhythm and cadence as far as updates and how we're progressing. I want to come to you with a strategic plan to review whatever your strategic planning process is, I need to be a part of it. And I've gotten the spectrum of reactions. Like, yeah, you don't need to be a part of that. We'll let you know when we're done. All the way to, oh, we didn't even, that didn't happen before. We didn't even think about that, but it sounds like a great idea. So I think,

laura_sukorokoff (39:33.262)

Mm-hmm.

laura_sukorokoff (39:50.638)

Mm-hmm.

angela_r__howard (40:01.215)

teaching HR professionals how to speak that language strategically, I think, is really key. And to raise their hand and say, you haven't done this before, but this is a—culture is strategy. So we have to include it in the process. Did I just raise my hand like I'm in school? I just noticed that.

aj (40:14.522)

Did I just raise my hand like I'm in school? I just noticed that. I wanna throw something else. Sorry. I wanna throw something else out that's really fun that I just thought off of the top of my head here that I think could be even like a project 2032.0 that I think Angela, I think you will be someone great to inevitably do something like this. Let's say you become a CHRO.

angela_r__howard (40:27.685)

I want to throw something else out that's really fun that I just thought off of the top of my head here that I think could be even like a project 2032.0 that I think Angela I think you will be someone great to inevitably do something like this. Let's say you become a CHRO or you become ahead of people and you have that role for 10 years or so. I've been on the record. I have a podcast about this. I've talked about this in the keynote.

aj (40:38.978)

or you become ahead of people and you have that role for 10 years or so. I've been on the record, I have a podcast about this, I've talked about this in a keynote, I've said this about myself, I believe more than ever, a seasoned veteran CHRO should apply to be a CEO. Now, follow with me here, I've always said this, because here's what happens, right? All the stuff that we know and love,

angela_r__howard (40:52.965)

I've said this about myself. I believe more than ever, a seasoned veteran CHRO should apply to be a CEO. Now, follow with me here. I've always said this, because here's what happens, right? All the stuff that we know and love, CEO, CFO, CTOs, they suck at this. I'm gonna be very transparent. I don't know.

aj (41:06.658)

CEO, CFO, CTOs, they suck at this. I'm gonna be very transparent. I don't know, 90%, and I know I get crazy here and I make really direct statements that I probably need to like watch myself here, but I'll make a bold statement if I'm wrong, someone, you know, sue me. I believe that most CEOs that I've come in contact with, most founders, most CMOs, most C-suite executives, they're not training and studying the EQ. They're not training and studying learning and development.

angela_r__howard (41:19.497)

90% and I know I get crazy here and I make really direct statements that I probably could like watch myself here but I'll make a bold statement if I'm wrong someone you know sue me. I believe that most CEOs that I've come in contact with, most founders, most CMOs, most C-suite executives, they're not training and studying the EQ, they're not training and studying learning and development, they're not trading and studying all these things you know you know change management and internal communications best practices and human behavior and neuroscience and

aj (41:35.662)

They're not trading and studying all these things, you know, change management, internal communications, best practices, and human behavior, neuroscience, and organizational psychology. That's not their background. They're like, my background is tech.

My background is finance. My background is mergers and acquisitions. My background is this and that. And follow with me here. If we can find a way to have a C-suite executive that's a CHRO understand for 10 or 15 years the business side of things.

angela_r__howard (41:50.672)

That's not their background. They're like, my background is tech. My background is finance. My background is mergers and acquisitions. My background is this and that. And follow with me here. If we can find a way to have a C-suite executive that's a CHRO understand for 10 or 15 years the business side of things, so now they have a pretty decent level of finance, of mergers and acquisitions, of the marketplace and all these other things. So, I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's

aj (42:06.526)

So now they have a pretty decent level of finance, of mergers and acquisitions, of the marketplace, and all these other things. You're telling me right now that they're not more qualified to be a CEO because now they have both skill sets. Now they have the skill sets that we all know actually holds a company together, and they have the tactical skill sets on the other angle as well. So I could be crazy here, but I think C-suite executives in the HR space that hold the role for 10 or 15 years,

angela_r__howard (42:19.391)

you're telling me right now that they're not more qualified to be CEO because now they have both skill sets. Now they have the skill sets that we all know actually holds a company together and they have the tactical skill sets on the other angle as well. So I could be crazy here but I think C-suite executives in the HR space that hold the role for 10 or 15 years

aj (42:35.99)

in like their late 40s, early 50s, I think they should be raising their hand to say, yeah, I should be the CEO here. Like, I know everything like the back of my hand across the entire board. And I've been studying this human type work for the last 20 years. So, yeah, I'm pretty solid with that perspective. Like I'm thinking about it. Like, I don't think there's any debate. If you guys have a debate, I would love to hear it, but I think that both of you could be a CEO. It's a certain type of a company at some point in your career.

angela_r__howard (42:41.173)

in like their late 40s, early 50s, I think they should be raising their hand to say, yeah, I should be the CEO here. Like, I know everything like the back of my hand across the entire board, and I've been studying this human type work for the last 20 years. So, yeah, I'm pretty solid with that perspective. Like, I'm thinking about it, like, I don't think there's any debate. If you guys have a debate, I would love to hear it, but.

I think that both of you could be a CEO. It's a certain cycle of a company at some point in your career. I genuinely believe you. I totally agree with you. I mean, so I have a philosophy of perspective that I know. I think I've shared with both of you, which is I think we should be trying to work HR out of a job. And those skill sets should be baked into the C-suite. Or everybody in the C-suite, including the CEO, should have that skill set.

aj (43:04.8)

I genuinely believe it.

angela_r__howard (43:35.465)

meta statement for today. But I don't know, what do you think, Laura? What do you think about that notion? So I've shared this with AJ before.

laura_sukorokoff (43:42.69)

So I've shared this with AJ before. And so AJ, this is old news to you. Recently, I was listening to a podcast. And the guest on the podcast was Dean Carter, who is the CHRO for Patagonia. And I will tell you, it was a great podcast. Really enjoyed listening to what he had to say. But the thing that caught my attention, perhaps most of all, was that.

angela_r__howard (43:46.473)

and so you know it this is old news to you uh... recently i was listening to a podcast in the guest on the podcast with the carter who is the c h r o four patagonia and i will say it was a great podcast really enjoyed listening to what he had to say but the thing that caught my attention perhaps most of all was that finance reports into him

aj (43:49.894)

Oh yeah, I remember that.

laura_sukorokoff (44:11.21)

finance reports into him. And I thought, wait a minute, wait, wait. Like I have worked in so many companies where HR reports into finance or into operations. To have that flipped on its head was like, wait, what? And I thought, as he explained the reasoning behind it and how it came to pass, I thought.

aj (44:15.347)

Hold on.

angela_r__howard (44:16.901)

And I thought, wait a minute, wait, wait. Like I have worked in so many companies where HR reports into finance or into operations. To have that flipped on its head was like, wait, what? And I thought, as he explained the reasoning behind it and how it came to pass, I thought,

laura_sukorokoff (44:40.506)

Yes, that absolutely makes so much sense. And it feeds into exactly what the two of you were saying, which is that human resources, because they are partners with every function within an organization, it stands to reason that they would have knowledge of every function in the organization. If they don't, they should. You know, they really, really should. But because they have this knowledge, it makes sense that they

angela_r__howard (44:40.745)

Yes, that absolutely makes so much sense. And it feeds into exactly what the two of you were saying, which is that human resources, because they are partners with every function within an organization, it stands to reason that they would have knowledge of every function in the organization. If they don't, they should. They really, really should. But because they have this knowledge,

it makes sense that they absolutely could be in leadership of all of these different functions. Absolutely, 100% makes sense that somebody who leads the people side of the organization could be the CEO. So my question, and I do not have an answer for this, but my question out there for the greater business community is why is this so seldom done?

laura_sukorokoff (45:10.13)

absolutely could be in leadership of all of these different functions. Absolutely, 100% makes sense that somebody who leads the people side of the organization could be the CEO. So my question, and I do not have an answer for this, but my question out there for the greater business community is why is this so seldom done? So that I think loops us right back to what we said at the beginning, which is that HR is typically not seen.

angela_r__howard (45:32.241)

So that I think loops us right back to what we said in the beginning, which is that HR is typically not seen as that sort of function. But I think that is changing and I'm hoping that this next generation of HR leaders like you Angela and like you AJ, that you are going to keep driving this conversation. What we have seen in the last little while is how crucial

laura_sukorokoff (45:38.95)

as that sort of function. But I think that is changing and I'm hoping that this next generation of HR leaders like you, Angela, and like you, AJ, that you are going to keep driving this conversation. What we have seen in the last little while is how crucial human resources is to organization. Not just the actual people working in the organization, we have always known that they are hugely important.

angela_r__howard (45:57.845)

human resources is to organization. Not just the actual people working in the organization. We have always known that they are hugely important. We maybe don't treat them that way, but we've always known it. But now when we see what happens to business as a result of what happens to people, we know business has to change. And human resources, is the department like it or not?

laura_sukorokoff (46:06.698)

We maybe don't treat them that way, but we've always known it. But now when we see what happens to business as a result of what happens to people, we know business has to change. And Human Resources is the department, like it or not, that's stuck with making those changes. End of story. And I think this is a terrific opportunity to rise up and say,

angela_r__howard (46:27.149)

that's stuck with making those changes. End of story. And I think this is a terrific opportunity to rise up and say, hey, the CHRO, that should be one of your key, key positions, key executive role. It should be up there with CEO and CFO and COO, for sure. Well, Laura, you, I think, just kind of tied the bow really nicely on this conversation.

laura_sukorokoff (46:34.85)

Hey, the CHRO, that should be one of your key, key positions, key executive role. It should be up there with CEO and CFO and COO, for sure.

angela_r__howard (46:57.383)

maybe just AJ you can tie another little bow at the top. So how do, so what are the next steps for this program? How do people sign up? Who's your target audience? How do people get in contact with you to become a part of this and start to consider themselves this next generation of HR leadership? I'm gonna do this sign up part, the contact part, I'm gonna throw that over to Laura, but I'll give you guys a little bit of the last bow. So I'm gonna be very clear and concise here.

aj (47:11.054)

I'm gonna do the sign up part, the contact part. I'm gonna throw that over to Laura, but I'll give you guys a little bit of the last bow. So I'm gonna be very clear and concise here if anyone's listening. This is what I think is, this is perfect for first time in your career ever, right? 10 years, seven years, 12 years in the HR space. You know, HR business partner.

angela_r__howard (47:27.063)

listening this is what I think is this is perfect for first time in your career ever right ten years seven years twelve years in the HR space you know

aj (47:33.442)

Maybe you're learning and development, maybe you're a generalist, all the other terms. Head of culture, there's all these different terms. Very first time you're considering trying to attempt to be a C-suite executive. What does that look like? Probably six figures in pay, probably a little bit of a larger organization, maybe small, depends on what is going on, small business here. Could be a title like Chief People Officer, could be a title like Head of People, could be a title like CHIRO. So for the first time ever, you're saying to yourself, I wanna make that leap. Now hold on.

angela_r__howard (47:37.601)

you know, HR business partner, maybe you're learning in development, maybe you're a generalist, all the other terms. Head of culture, there's all these different terms. Very first time you're considering trying to attempt to be a C-suite executive. What does that look like? Probably six figures in pay, probably a little bit of a larger organization, maybe small, depends on what is going on, small business here. Could be a title like Chief People Officer, could be a title like Head of People, could be a title like CHIRO. So if the first time ever you're saying to yourself, I wanna make that leap.

aj (48:03.214)

The leap is a year in advance. Angela, you and I both know when you were at Kaiser, you didn't just wake up one day on a Tuesday and say, let me just go apply to Dover on a Wednesday. Didn't work that way. You had that in your mind probably about a year in advance. So it's the same process here. If you're thinking about making that transition a year, maybe ET months, maybe even two years down the road, this is the perfect program for you.

angela_r__howard (48:07.693)

Now hold on. The leap is...

a year in advance. Angela, you and I both know when you were at Kaiser, you didn't just wake up one day on a Tuesday and say, let me just go apply to Dover on a Wednesday. Didn't work that way. You had that in your mind probably about a year in advance. So it's the same process here. If you're thinking about making that transition a year, maybe ET months, maybe even two years down the road, this is the perfect program for you. I think we're gonna help you guys understand your professional brand, understand what type of company you're best suited for.

aj (48:28.266)

I think we're going to help you guys understand your professional brand, understand what type of company you're best suited for, understand how to hold yourself accountable and push very directly and intentionally within the interview process, understand the leadership ground floor level, understand employee experience, all the things that kind of put everything in a focus. Eight weeks, very affordable. I don't know.

angela_r__howard (48:40.567)

Understand how to hold yourself accountable and push very directly and intentionally within the interview process Understand the leadership ground floor level understand employee experience all the things that kind of put everything in a focus Eight weeks very affordable

aj (48:50.982)

I don't really have nothing else to say about it. It's like, it's so obvious to me that I just think it's a big win. And the last thing I'll say, this isn't for everybody. That's a small window of people that are willing to make that next step. So I'll toss it over to Laura to do any other sprinkles on top and communication as far as how you guys can find out more.

angela_r__howard (48:56.161)

I don't know, I don't really know, I'm not gonna say it by the... I, it's like, it's so obvious to me that I just think it's, it's a big win. And the last thing I'll say, this isn't for everybody. That's a small window of people that are willing to make that next step. So, um, I'll toss it over to Laura to do any other, uh, sprinkles on top and communication. Both? Sprinkles? That's where I'll tell you guys how you can find out more. Perfect. So, I will...

laura_sukorokoff (49:17.538)

So I will, Angela, I've shared the link with you to our page. And what we've got up on the page is the wait list button. And so anybody, you know, just look for the show notes, get the link. I will tell you as well that the site is C Change Learning. That's letter C, cchangelarning.com. And if you go on there, you'll find the link to project 2030. We'll be happy to connect with you, to talk with you about this program.

angela_r__howard (49:19.229)

Angela, I've shared the link with you to our page. And what we've got up on the page is a wait list button. And so anybody, you know, just look for the show notes, get the link. I will tell you as well that the site is C Change Learning. That's letter C, cchangelearning.com. And if you go on there, you'll find the link to Project 2030. We'll be happy to connect with you, to talk with you about this program,

laura_sukorokoff (49:46.862)

to share what we've got going on with the curriculum, to share who's gonna be successful in it, all of those sorts of things, whatever you wanna know about it, we're happy to connect with you and talk to you about that. I also have included the link to my LinkedIn profile. So anybody listening, please connect with me. I would love to, whether you take the program or not, I would just love to connect with you and learn more about you and what you're doing. And I, Anthony, I'm pretty sure.

angela_r__howard (49:49.083)

on with the curriculum, to share who's going to be successful in it, all of those sorts of things, whatever you want to know about it, we're happy to connect with you and talk to you about that. I also have included the link to my LinkedIn profile. So anybody listening, please connect with me. I would love to, whether you take the program or not, I would just love to connect with you and learn more about you and what you're doing. And I, Anthony, I'm pretty sure that you're open to them connecting with you as well.

aj (50:13.462)

No, I do not want that. I'm just joking. I'm just kidding.

laura_sukorokoff (50:16.746)

that you're open to them connecting with you as well. OK, then never mind. Sorry, back out of that one. Folks, lucky for you folks, I will have time between now and then to make sure to get his attitude in line. And he'll speak with you for sure. And.

angela_r__howard (50:19.463)

No, I do not want that. OK, then never mind. Let's get back out of that one. Lucky for you folks, I will have time between now and then to make sure to get his attitude in line. And he'll see it for sure. Yes, well, I will be sharing both of your LinkedIn profiles. So sorry, AJ. And then, and just so you know, sorry, I keep calling him AJ. I think Laura's calling him Anthony. This is the same person. Just for the listeners, so they're not confused.

aj (50:24.71)

Please.

laura_sukorokoff (50:36.278)

Great, thank you.

aj (50:39.45)

The same person.

laura_sukorokoff (50:44.966)

Yeah, Anthony Vaughn, folks. The Anthony Vaughn.

angela_r__howard (50:49.683)

Yes, so I will be sure to, we will be sure to post the link, make sure people know where to contact you, and just thank you for, you know, helping to nurture this next generation of HR leaders. I think this is such important work and we have such huge massive change coming, so thank you for prepping the next generation. Thank you. Thanks, Angela. Our next cohort starts at the end of September, so I hope to see

aj (51:06.79)

Thank you.

laura_sukorokoff (51:12.742)

Aw, thanks, Angela. Our next cohort starts at the end of September, so I hope to see many people from the audience there. That would be so great to have you. Angela, thank you so much for having us on this show. I really appreciate it.

angela_r__howard (51:18.377)

many people from the audience there. That would be so great to have you. Angela, thank you so much for having us on this show. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks, Laura. Thanks, AJ.

aj (51:20.059)

Thank you.

laura_sukorokoff (51:30.274)

Thanks everybody.