Preventive Health & Sustainability with Jim Feng
angela_r_howard (00:03.09)
All right. Hello. Hello, Jim. How are you? It's great to have you on the podcast. This is going to be a real treat. Jim and I met and we share very similar interests and connection with mission driven organizations. Jim is a health tech CEO, and he actually first introduced me to aquascaping, which I feel like you're going to have to tell us a little bit more about. So I'm excited to talk to Jim.
jim_feng (00:28.672)
I totally forgot about that.
angela_r_howard (00:31.974)
Yeah, that was that was a treat. I was like, what is aquascaping? But I'm excited to have you on the podcast, Jim. Tell us a little bit more about you. And I also would love to hear about aquascaping, but also what your mission is.
jim_feng (00:46.291)
Absolutely. Angela, thank you so much for having me on the pod. And really excited for this conversation because I think even the prep up to this has been really enlightening and just, I love the mission that you're on as well. So doing great things for employees. So I think this will be really good. Yeah, for me, I guess my background, I'm a sports-based chiropractor. I've been practicing for the past 14 years, I guess. I got into tech back in 2010. We built actually,
one of the first cloud-based electronic medical records. So that's my stint into tech. We were able to exit out of that. So we got my beep way a little bit into venture. And then from there, I angel invested a bit in technology companies. So really understood the ins and outs on the finance side of things and raising money. So from there, like, you know, prior to that was also building integrated clinics. So some of the clinics that we were building were really on the high performance side of things. So we worked with like,
angela_r_howard (01:19.106)
Mmm.
jim_feng (01:44.651)
the national wrestling team to like the UFC, working on their athletes and getting them back to play, but also not just back to play, but better performance. And we just always found that our athletes are willing to take the extra steps and to do better for their health because ultimately that's your money-making machine and that's what they need to be at the tip-top shape in order to produce. And then on their side, other side, we saw the public system and the private system.
angela_r_howard (01:49.518)
Hmm.
jim_feng (02:11.591)
wasted dollars in disability management of dollars and getting people out of pain. It was just, it just didn't make sense to me. I'm like, how can I get this individual from like an ACL tear to like full recovery surgery within this period of time? And these people are still lagging. I can do it in like half the cost. So that really intrigued me. So I really wanted to instill, I think it really came down to like preventative and what they're able to, how they engage with the therapies and the rehab. And we know that from a re-
angela_r_howard (02:29.399)
Hehehe
angela_r_howard (02:38.102)
Mm-hmm.
jim_feng (02:41.779)
from a recovery standpoint, the exercise component is the most important part. Like ultrasound, IFCs, acupuncture, like lasers, it's great for in conjunction with everything else, but the rehab component, and there's even the soft tissue where the actual patient can do them themselves just with massage ball, like that's the most important part. So I was wondering what can we do? What can we create to engage our patients better? We also know national drop-off rate from-
angela_r_howard (03:00.205)
Mm.
jim_feng (03:09.355)
you know, before they get discharged in physical therapy, physical therapy is 70%. So 70% of people, seven out of 10 people who start a program of care drop off before they're actually discharged because of time and money. So how do we engage? How do we move from people not just treating for pain, right, but working on prevention and better functional movements so these things don't come back again and understand their body a little bit more? It's kind of interesting how much you know about
angela_r_howard (03:27.714)
Mmm.
angela_r_howard (03:31.903)
Yeah.
jim_feng (03:36.079)
your line of work in HR and motivating people. And then what about your body? How much do you know about that? And I'm pretty sure that should be like a prerequisite for life. So that's why we built Fixable.
angela_r_howard (03:38.898)
I'm sorry.
angela_r_howard (03:46.661)
Mmm. I agree.
Well, yeah, so fixable if we can kind of break it down. I know it's a healthcare technology, it's a tool, but it's also a tactic for employers, for individuals, for sustainable health. And I do wanna talk about this idea of sustainability versus kind of the reactionary piece that you mentioned, because the world of wellness right now is...
jim_feng (04:08.032)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (04:20.589)
hot topic. Everyone wants to know how do we improve, how do we improve health at work, health and wellness at work. So tell us a little bit more about the tool and then I want to jump into a conversation about sustainability.
jim_feng (04:34.079)
Sounds good. In regards to the technology, at the end of the day, there's not many tools, there's many tools, I guess, in the past where it was built for the practitioner to deploy exercise movements and things like that, right? But no really tool built for the end user, the patient, the person in pain. So we really wanted to create a platform and a tool geared towards you and I. And...
my patients, my family, so the people who are actually using the tool. And how can we create trust around it so people can get better from pain, but also understand the next steps to pain prevention. So along with the world-class programming for like common issues like low back pain, neck pain, zoom necks, you know, sitting in front of your computer all day to like post-operative, very technical. Yeah. I see. Yes. All those practitioners listening are just like, what is this? Um, but, um,
angela_r_howard (05:20.937)
Yes. That's a very technical term, I'm sure, Zoom neck, right?
jim_feng (05:28.251)
Yeah, alongside those, but also be able to customize programming now for, for uncommon things like tri radiofiber cartridges, ligament tear, you know, maybe AC springs or repetitive things. So we build a whole platform around the patient, but also for the practitioner as well. So they're able to, you know, create customized programming and then utilizing psychology tools like the things Facebook uses, Instagram uses for you to infinity scroll for the better of your health. To remind you to make sure you're paying in the right time.
angela_r_howard (05:38.251)
Mmm.
jim_feng (05:58.107)
and the gamification to make sure you're progressing along the right path. So all these tools together, I think what's, and it's, some of it's very, you know, progressive and some of it is just listening to our users and listening to our patients and understanding the employers and what they need and what they hear from the back end. Right. So we built these tools specifically for patients. So if you're, if you're an end user for, so somebody who has, you know, rolled your ankle first time, then.
angela_r_howard (06:11.502)
Hmm.
jim_feng (06:25.495)
So you can jump on a call with a practitioner, a live practitioner in your region anytime and get a diagnosis like this. And then, so you understand what is the next steps. Next steps being we created video-based programming with sets and reps all built in. You don't have to think about it, you just do. And then it reminds you of the right time to do. In addition, we built some machine learning around it to kind of progress with you and personalize it for you. And then also we're building this really co-augmented reality tool where you're...
your front-facing camera, your iPhone's gonna be able to tell you if you're doing these movements right or wrong. And then eventually, hopefully, if we're talking to the space agency right now, so it can help actually individuals who don't have connection to remodeling diagnose. So building really some crazy tech on the other side of things, but at the end of the day, the person using it has to have a really good, flawless experience from dealing with their actual pain and problems to maintaining their health. So.
angela_r_howard (07:21.014)
Mm-hmm.
jim_feng (07:22.631)
Other programs on the road we have actually for things like even aging populations, slip and fall programming, prevent, um, slips and falls months or aging population, that's about the three accent by 2046. So imagine us dealing with as a healthcare system. Um, and then for employers, we are definitely working on it, like, uh, you know, prevention programs within the workplace. So one of which is like healthcare workers, they're, they're on the job, not only getting COVID, but also, you know, taking days off because of that, but also
angela_r_howard (07:44.236)
Hmm.
Yes. Mm-hmm.
jim_feng (07:51.719)
muscle skeletal injury is still the highest complaint and reason for disability. So how can we now create program around that? Track remotely monitor to know that as a cohort, we're able to reduce those days lost from work and also just building better humans, right? So we have really cool programs, even for our tech companies on the, what do you do on a daily basis? How do you move throughout the day feeling good?
angela_r_howard (08:08.823)
Yeah.
angela_r_howard (08:16.723)
Mm-hmm.
jim_feng (08:17.487)
and then it pings you at the right time to kind of do this quick little 30 second thing. So you're not sinking into your monitor and your neck is getting destroyed. Like it's simple things like that to make you feel good and drive endorphins throughout the day. So taking the science and then the human behavior and really amalgamating the two.
angela_r_howard (08:24.378)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (08:34.414)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, this is really about improving human performance, which I think a lot of times when we talk about employee engagement, right, or we talk about culture, or we talk about, you know, the environment or the climate that the human is in while they're working, I think we forget the fact that our body is, it's not a machine, but it has components that it needs to be.
jim_feng (08:45.403)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
angela_r_howard (09:00.71)
oiled up, it needs to work, it needs to move around, it requires things, like it needs to be nurtured throughout the day. And so it's the opposite of being a machine. It's really having a focus on prevention, but this gets me to kind of to my next question and line of questioning because going back to health and wellness at work, and a lot of organizations are saying that they are
they have a culture of wellness, right? They're advertising that or all the buzzwords, well-being is important to us. What do you think we're getting, what are workplaces getting wrong right now when it comes to health and wellness and the programming and the focus they have on it?
jim_feng (09:31.296)
Mm-hmm.
jim_feng (09:41.783)
Yeah, I think a lot of it is really just a checkbox, right? And solving for the problem. But if you're actually really mission driven in creating better humans, you'll understand that it takes a biopsychosocial approach and that's what we're trying to take. So biology, like the body, psychology, and social being like your culture, right? And that goes the same with practitioners and what we do in a clinical setting too.
angela_r_howard (10:02.606)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
jim_feng (10:10.571)
the workplace. So, and then, and then I think driving that towards actually mission driven to understand that how by creating better you, better you employees, ultimately at least a better output for, for the company, right? And putting those two missions together, I think is really incredibly important. And it's not about just there's tons of cookie little tiny apps and like little tiny solutions, small little things here and there to kind of nip the butt.
angela_r_howard (10:23.21)
Mm-hmm.
jim_feng (10:37.227)
you know, that maybe that one problem, but the systemic problem, the root cause of the issue is still there, right? So I think when the good companies that we work with, the really good ones, I'm not gonna name names or good or bad, but have that really ingrained and amalgamated into their actual, you know, onboarding, into their monthly cultural events, into their systems, right? And when we work with them, we literally go in there as like,
angela_r_howard (10:37.782)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (10:43.669)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (10:58.005)
Mm.
jim_feng (11:06.611)
we do a design thinking type of session with the whole team we have, and we'll even interview some of the employees to understand what's the true nature of what is going on here, right? And what are you guys struggling with? So we'll look at the numbers in regards to common issues that you're struggling with, but also the sentiments around the wellness side of things and the prevention, things like that. Are you burnt out? Why are you burnt out? Because...
I have this job and I'm repetitively doing these things over and over and every few months I'm getting running into these issues. And that's correlated directly with your days lost from work on average because low bad pain, whatever it is. And then we create a program around that's super engaging. And that's really important, I think, just getting people involved and more mission involved about better health. And if you talk to them about their better, everyone cares about health, just about everybody, I should say. And you'll notice that like eight to nine.
angela_r_howard (11:40.43)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (11:57.406)
Yes.
jim_feng (12:00.267)
people at a 10 have struggled with some kind of illness or some kind of physical ailment that's kind of taking them back. So they've had some experiences with this. And the older you get, the more issues you run into. So depending on your cohort, right? But if you talk to them and be at the level of them and thinking about them, because they care about themselves at the end of the day. And then you drive that, what they actually really want and what they need with the...
angela_r_howard (12:20.385)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
jim_feng (12:30.099)
the company's mission together, I think that's ultimately a better gig. And then it's not just implementing one thing, but ultimately following up with these implementations. What happens next? What are you actually doing? How do you reward that better behavior along the way and recognition along the way, and then being consistent and then evaluating afterwards and looking at that journey, how do I tweak and make things better incrementally to get them going?
angela_r_howard (12:39.074)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (12:44.467)
Mm-hmm.
jim_feng (12:58.867)
I think having people at the table is really important in the beginning and asking them what they need and what they want because if you just implement something and you really, and as an HR folk, I don't know if you've done design thinking or what have you, but you really need to understand your folks and people. But I think going through that journey with an external partner might lead to different answers, might not be common with UC. So I think those are some of the couple of...
angela_r_howard (13:09.61)
Yeah. Yes.
angela_r_howard (13:19.496)
Mm-hmm.
jim_feng (13:27.239)
synonymous things I see with really good cultural teams.
angela_r_howard (13:31.978)
Yeah, that aligns at Jives with my thinking, which is getting enrollment across the company, right, which is the listening to your people, understanding what their needs are. Because I think a lot of times with a lot of cultural efforts, we look at our competitors and what they're doing and we say, yeah, let's do that. And let's cookie cutter, you know, let's just blanket it across the company and see what happens versus doing the work upfront.
jim_feng (13:42.199)
I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.
angela_r_howard (14:01.358)
culture change is hard work. And if culture change is simply changing behaviors and mindsets, I think people get, I guess, confused about what culture is. I think a lot of people think it's like programs and perks and benefits and adding to when really it's really just improving on what you might already have. You have a mission, you have a purpose. Now with micro-progressions and actions and habits, let's continue to change
jim_feng (14:03.54)
Absolutely.
jim_feng (14:17.832)
Mm-hmm.
jim_feng (14:23.176)
Absolutely.
angela_r_howard (14:31.15)
towards those things. That's a psychology element, which is kind of my background. Culture change is not a big marketing plan. It's these little tiny changes in habits and behaviors. So I think you've got something there.
jim_feng (14:36.245)
Yeah.
jim_feng (14:43.955)
Yeah, I totally agree. And we took the same approach to some of the programming. So we have these leveling up systems where it progressively gets you better over time and you're winning along the way, right? And you have to be rewarded for those tiny wins. And you can't progress unless you're doing well, not in pain and feeling good, right? And this is relatively...
angela_r_howard (14:56.02)
Mmm, nice, yeah.
jim_feng (15:05.651)
just right for you, not too hard, not too challenging. So it does require that. And within the medical side of things, as well as the cultural side of things from for those employees, I think you mentioned mission law and with culture. Like mission is so important these days. I think really driving that mission, being more esoteric versus bottom line is incredibly important. And implementing things like us or other programming along the way where they're...
angela_r_howard (15:21.174)
Mm-hmm.
jim_feng (15:34.559)
They're really buy-in and the HR staff are really bought into this and like the CEOs and executives are utilizing it together with them and really diving deep and be on the ground floor with those individuals, right? I think is huge. It speaks volumes, right? Tony Hsieh back in the day, I remember he created a, well, I guess he was one of the first to implement something like, it was called a holacracy, right? Where you have one level of...
angela_r_howard (15:52.087)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (16:02.931)
Mm.
jim_feng (16:04.959)
you know, status, if you will, right? And I think executives, as bigger the company gets, they're really far away from those individuals on the ground doing the work and, you know, speaking about the company, right? And understanding the really living culture. So, you know, spending some time within, on the ground floor to understand that and be in it, I think is important.
angela_r_howard (16:19.252)
Yeah.
angela_r_howard (16:30.398)
Yeah, and I think we forget about, you know, I totally agree with you. There's this huge, the gap widens. So, you know, your, your goal as a leadership team is to create a bridge, right? From, you know, create a bridge, knock down the bridge, you know, make sure everybody gets in the middle of the bridge, however it ends up. Like you need to be able to close that gap between what you think is happening at a leadership level, executive level and what's actually happening. Uh, and the issues are different.
jim_feng (16:43.413)
Yeah.
angela_r_howard (16:59.902)
Right? Like health outcomes might be different for someone who's making $400,000 a year versus your plant employee who's on the ground. Right? And I think the perspective is there's even a huge gap in perspective around health outcomes. So what are your thoughts on that? How do leaders ensure that they really know, again, creating a health and wellness program or a well-being initiative, like how do you make sure you close that gap?
jim_feng (17:08.481)
That's right.
jim_feng (17:26.975)
Yeah, no, that's a great question. And, you know, I think it comes back to that preventative basis. And you mentioned sustainability, right? It's a big topic these days from environmental sustainability and to health sustainability, right? And in the U S the employers paying 80% of the health dollar as well. So you got to remember that. And the healthier you are, the less utilization of the system you have. Right. And then your long-term.
angela_r_howard (17:49.723)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
jim_feng (17:56.583)
effects in the system is huge, right? And not only do you feel better, right? And you get that positive reinforcement through that, but you actually, you're less likely to be a diabetic if you're moving throughout the day, right? We actually have numbers on that. There's a good study recently. You just squat like 20 times, multiple times in a day, it reduced your A1Cs. It's incredible, right? So with some of my patients, I literally, their daily program is like 20 squats, 10 times a day, and that is it. And it takes you maybe like...
angela_r_howard (18:11.836)
Wow. Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (18:17.936)
Wow.
jim_feng (18:25.271)
40 seconds a minute, right? And you come out with nice thighs and glutes and also feeling good. No diabetes, nice, right? So you amalgamate the two, like mission-driven with health and the human-driven thing that they wanna do as well. And I think mission and vanity is one thing and also you need to tap into that human want, right? So I mentioned vanity a little bit, right? So glutes and thoughts, right? So at some point, your dropout point's gonna be
angela_r_howard (18:25.322)
Wow.
angela_r_howard (18:30.306)
Yeah, no diabetes, nice thighs, we're all for it.
angela_r_howard (18:48.098)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (18:51.774)
Yep.
jim_feng (18:55.175)
Okay, and also to get them going on a prevention standpoint, we've learned quickly, and I guess I've learned in the last 15 years, that humans are lazy. And in order for them to do something, you gotta give them something that they want, right? It's not that they need. Not many times they'll do all the stuff that they eat, right? And if it was 50,000 years ago, we're...
angela_r_howard (19:05.603)
Mm.
jim_feng (19:18.651)
our body was meant to conserve energy, right? We're not going to find food three times a meal, three meals a day, which you don't actually need it. So, you don't know when the next feeding is, so you actually conserve energy. So I think more importantly, on a prevention side, it's got to be a little bit more esoteric and you've got to really talk to their wants as well as the need. So not only are you going to get this, great abs, but also you're going to maintain your core, core stabilize your low back that prevents you from being...
angela_r_howard (19:25.088)
Right.
angela_r_howard (19:43.575)
Mm-hmm.
jim_feng (19:48.075)
you know, future injuries, right? And, oh, by the way, here's how you live properly. So that's gonna even reduce your incidences more often. I think that's sustainability for us, right? Being able to create better humans. Ultimately, these humans are gonna be more effective in the workplace, better humans, more performance, higher energy levels, better endorphins. Do you think you can perform better when your energy level's at this level? Or do you think you're down here moping around, waiting?
angela_r_howard (19:50.45)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (19:59.788)
Mmm.
jim_feng (20:16.767)
you know, for that five o'clock to roll around, right? And your energy level is so low. Energy levels are so important throughout the workplace. And I think that's really sustainability. And you got to, it might feel like it costs a little bit more right now, but the long-term effects, and we have good numbers on that, on the ROI as well, is a lot better, right? So if you get that, you know,
angela_r_howard (20:17.726)
All right.
jim_feng (20:40.779)
You know, you have to invest in like sales marketing, right? To get the end result without knowing if this is going to work. This is the same thing. So test, test it with a small cohort. And then from there, is it working for that small? Great. Awesome. Let's implement for the rest of the company. Right.
angela_r_howard (20:45.771)
Yeah.
angela_r_howard (20:53.003)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (20:56.414)
Yeah, you mentioned that, you know, about humans being lazy or, you know, the way I interpret that too is that we're so focused on short-term gain and, you know, cult, and I always bring this back to organizational culture because it's what I know. It's the same thing, right? As organizations, we go for the short-term metrics and the objectives and we want to see results or we want to be, or negative reinforcement also drives us to action.
jim_feng (21:01.979)
haha
jim_feng (21:05.791)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (21:25.77)
Right? Something is right in front of me. Diabetes, turnover at companies, all these things that are like, oh shit, I've gotta make a change, something bad is happening. And as humans, as individuals, we're the same way. We oftentimes, a lot of us do not focus on the preventatives. We wait until we have that health scare, that oh shit moment where we need to change our health around. And so it's just, there's gotta be like a whole,
jim_feng (21:26.023)
Yep.
jim_feng (21:31.083)
That's right.
jim_feng (21:35.924)
Yeah, yeah.
100%.
angela_r_howard (21:55.438)
I probably have a whole other podcast on connecting the psychology and the biology together on this. But other than typical reinforcement measures, the app is a great tool for those micro-progressions or micro-habit changes. What other messages, what can employers be doing to bring awareness to these preventative measures? Because I think they have a role. They have a role to, especially if it's
jim_feng (21:57.183)
Yeah.
angela_r_howard (22:25.85)
for them as a business but also caring about people, how can workplaces deliver that message?
jim_feng (22:32.019)
Yeah, that's a great question. I think it goes very deep. Understanding that, yeah. And you can come out sounding like a annoying mom. Like, go, you know, telling you what to do at home and, you know, wash your hands. Like, you know, it can sound like that. And, or it can sound like, hey, we are here for you. What, here are.
angela_r_howard (22:40.119)
Yeah, I know, like, whole nother podcast episode, I'm sure.
angela_r_howard (22:48.526)
Mm-mm. Right. Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (22:59.831)
Mm.
jim_feng (23:00.887)
most common stuff we see in the workplace and most common spend, you know, within our insurance dollar we see, I, we know that 30% of you guys right now have diabetes or pre-diabetic or metformin. Like these are common things that we see it. So, you know, company, why? We're going to start maybe a walking program, right? A simple, simple walking program. And for the next, you know, 12 weeks, real simple, you know, top 10 people, here's a prize. And then we're going to continue on with it.
angela_r_howard (23:13.707)
Mm.
jim_feng (23:28.691)
And for those who choose to participate, right? And I think you should reward that behavior as well. Not that you have to look at the metrics and numbers specifically for it. Not that you can't anyways, but you shouldn't be. But I think you can look at enrollment. Like, are they enrolled, right? And part of your, I think your quarterly is with them and performance reviews are just not on metrics of their output, right?
angela_r_howard (23:43.508)
Mm-hmm.
jim_feng (23:57.067)
So it's their metrics of the process. And so what have you done in regards to pro-cust and get those metrics? How you feel overall, how's the family? How can I support you there? So that drives a larger picture in regards to being connected to your people and then also understanding your pain points. And sometimes they'll just complain about pain points and don't want a solution. When it comes to design thinking and journey mapping of individuals, I think it's really important to understand
angela_r_howard (24:00.394)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (24:13.012)
Mm-hmm.
jim_feng (24:26.355)
what they say versus what they actually need. So you gotta read in between the lines a little bit in regards to what's actually happening in from a data-driven standpoint, and then understanding the why behind with the employees. But it is, you know, prevention is really hard, but we do find that once you implemented a solution like us and other companies have said so as well, after the first year, you start driving, understanding your people a lot better and you're able to...
angela_r_howard (24:31.106)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (24:51.423)
Mm-hmm.
jim_feng (24:54.999)
push the right buttons for that prevention and better human performance. So, and again, going back to that topic of vanity and what they want, tie it to what they want. Like literally tie it to what they want and what they need. Once you're able to do that, right? Then you're gonna be able to really drive mission around that human health sustainability, right? Same thing goes with like, you know, our environment, right? So.
angela_r_howard (24:58.123)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (25:06.022)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (25:19.895)
Mm.
jim_feng (25:22.631)
driving that mission of like when it comes to environment, especially now, right, with EVs and everything else, and we increased a whole degree within like 78 years, previous to that was like hundreds. So the ultimate negative feedback here is like, we're gonna die as a species, right? You're gonna die. Here's a negative feedback. We need to do this. Here's a bigger mission outside of you that we need to do better, right? And then from a health standpoint,
angela_r_howard (25:27.289)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (25:33.483)
Yeah.
angela_r_howard (25:41.682)
No.
angela_r_howard (25:50.104)
Hmm.
jim_feng (25:52.435)
And especially if you felt it once or twice, you understand it. If you haven't never felt it, you don't understand it. So there is an age gap in regards to who uses this more sustainably. We do find, you know, the 35 and above uses us a lot more on the preventative side. And then the younger cats are more using it on like things that they want to improve on, more vanity based. So, you need to understand who you're talking to, yeah.
angela_r_howard (25:54.986)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (26:07.947)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (26:17.034)
Well, that's a great point. I think it is a balance of, you know, talking about the, you know, because there's a lot of metrics and statistics and studies that tell us these things holistically work, right? Like the 20 squats a day, you know, to prevent, or, you know, walking 30 minutes a day. Like that is a blanket, those are blanket things that we can all do to improve our health and be preventative. But there's also this idea of design thinking
jim_feng (26:31.871)
Right. Yep.
angela_r_howard (26:47.114)
Personas, right? Like who are the personas at your company and that's a part of design thinking is not just having blanket communications about the same thing, but now tying those facts to, well, what will my millennial generation, how do we say that to a millennial generation versus baby boomers who are about to retire? Or the person who's, even socioeconomic status.
jim_feng (27:07.191)
That's right.
angela_r_howard (27:16.746)
right, based on health outcomes and certain zip codes or, you know, certain demographics. How do we change the story so that it hits home and it relates to me and my family and my community? And I can see a call for action out.
jim_feng (27:20.247)
That's right.
jim_feng (27:31.115)
for sure. And I think what you were mentioning there was like, you know, more than on the herd mentality side of things, right? There's a psychology of herd mentality. So I think going back to the book, you know, crossing the chasm, you know, it's a, it's more on the tech development side of things, but I think some of this, some of the key learnings are true here as well. So I think early adopters are really important.
angela_r_howard (27:38.85)
Mmm.
jim_feng (27:54.491)
and finding those early adopters of those programming and drives her to meeting. And you don't have to get this down one try. So you know what I'm saying? It takes a couple of tries and it grows on top of each other. You remember that. You're creating any product and putting any product or any service or any projects or programs into fruition, it's not going to be a thousand X for a time around. That's not how it works. You start something small and you build on top of that win, right? And if this is something that's really true and important to your company,
angela_r_howard (28:15.662)
Right.
jim_feng (28:23.659)
then you build on top of that win. So you get those early adopters, and then there's gonna be a flock of people after their early adopter who see the early adopter and be like, oh, they were kind of on the fence, right? Then now they're gonna, the early adopter is gonna pull those people in, you know? And then those people build even a bigger flock. And then you have those other who are more skeptical on the other end, be like, oh man, this should be really good for my health. I can like, my dad has the IP, I don't wanna be like him. I'm like...
angela_r_howard (28:42.014)
Yes. Yeah.
angela_r_howard (28:48.814)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (28:52.499)
Right.
jim_feng (28:52.567)
Um, you know, my dad suffers from chronic low back pain. He needs a walker like now. So I don't want to be that guy, you know, in, uh, when I'm, when I'm older. So. Like, I think it really builds on top and everyone understands health as well. So to some degree, you know, what, to some degree you understand what you should do for better health. You probably should move. You probably, you should eat better. You probably should, you know, de-stress and, you know, a bit of mindful meditation here and there.
angela_r_howard (29:00.59)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (29:18.916)
Mm-hmm.
jim_feng (29:21.723)
What is that trigger point for them to engage? So I think really understand who those early up doctors you guys down, you guys want this, okay, yes. You said it three times, okay, great. You're on this program, let's show the people results. Results came in, looks good. Like company wide emails and recognition for those individuals and then you can tie some structure around it that, like a leader's board of whatever you want to do, culturally already doing. And then from a incentivization standpoint and then the other people will come.
angela_r_howard (29:24.276)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (29:45.513)
Mm-hmm.
jim_feng (29:50.707)
And then market a little bit to them. You could create some scarcity around it initially and then a little bit of urgency when this program starts and when it ends and things like that. I think you can, from a psychology standpoint, be able to kind of work that into getting a better adoption.
angela_r_howard (30:00.29)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (30:08.075)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (30:11.894)
And I think, you know, naturally you mentioned herd mentality, but it gets to the point that we're social beings. And when it comes to accountability and action, we tend to when we've been called out or we've been, you know, put on notice or, you know, called the action. Typically, if someone else knows about it, we're more likely to do it because we're social beings and community is important to us. And
the keeping the community together is important to us. So using some of those tactics too to create accountability and leadership accountability. Leadership accountability is so important with these programs because if my leader isn't doing it, why should I? If my leader isn't committed to it, they're saying one thing and doing another thing, then you're reducing the chances that it's actually gonna stay.
jim_feng (30:48.404)
Yeah, absolutely.
jim_feng (30:56.397)
Absolutely.
jim_feng (31:00.497)
Absolutely.
jim_feng (31:04.355)
Absolutely. And they have to buy in from department to department, depending how big you guys are. And maybe even we have one company doing our Learn to Run program. So we have a really good program created by actually one of my older patients who actually started off as you know, from a really bad car accident.
angela_r_howard (31:09.748)
Mm-hmm.
jim_feng (31:23.387)
where she was in a wheelchair, literally, and she's been with me, I guess, majority of my career, from a wheelchair to getting her run to the local grocery shop from our clinic. It was literally 500 meters. And it was a jog. That was her first run ever. And now she directs the Toronto Marathon, and she also worked up with the running room and built and taught.
angela_r_howard (31:36.006)
Oh my gosh.
jim_feng (31:47.423)
thousands of people to run and walk for the first time. And for herself, even ran her marathon like about six years ago for first. And that group, she was literally the slowest person. Like they were closing the marathon. Took her six and a half hours to do it. And they were closing the marathon, but she did it. And she had a whole flock of people behind her while they were closing the marathon. There were literally police cars behind her because they were literally putting things away and closing the marathon. And...
angela_r_howard (32:04.994)
But she did it. That's amazing.
jim_feng (32:16.083)
Even from there, we built actually a group called Cross the Finish Line around that, the community, right? Around helping people doing the first. So like doing these things don't have to be hard. It does not have to be super high performance. It's about getting it done, I think most important, like the black and white of getting it done. And also, you know, using some of those stories to drive a bit of mission people to get them excited and about that and getting the right leaders first, you know.
angela_r_howard (32:24.936)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (32:34.775)
Mm-hmm.
jim_feng (32:45.995)
there is really important. They can lead the way, they can, you know, set kind of the bar for the rest of the people as well. And they might not be the all the leaders in the department could just be one person in the department that loves this and wants to lead the group within it. And, and the leader of the company could also follow too, right? So they don't have to necessarily be really good at this and, and have to do this. It could just be going to your people and be like, who wants to lead this and giving them a little bit of
angela_r_howard (32:46.658)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (33:02.742)
and champion it.
jim_feng (33:15.483)
I guess a little bit of mojo there to lead the way, right? Yeah.
angela_r_howard (33:18.054)
Yeah. And I think you're onto something, which is, you know, these shifts are always it's usually a groundswell. And it's usually a group of people or community or individual who's passionate about it. So I oftentimes kind of like cringe when I see so many companies like hiring these high level.
jim_feng (33:34.795)
Yep.
angela_r_howard (33:43.114)
profile executives who are focused on culture change or you know, because it really lives within the people. There's no one person that can drive these outcomes. It has to be something that you commit to, you align to as an organization and make happen. And really role model and match your behaviors. Yeah, so.
jim_feng (33:44.811)
Mm-hmm.
jim_feng (33:59.987)
Yeah, I totally agree.
Absolutely. I guess that's personalization of it, right? I think going in there to understand the people first is really important.
angela_r_howard (34:13.438)
Right. Yeah, absolutely. Well, we talked a lot about a lot today. My gosh, I feel like, you know, it's, I think the focus on preventative health. To me, I can't help but, again, connect this to culture at work and sustainability, because it's all connected, which is let's put up the time and the investment upfront to ensure that our people have the tools
the health, the wealth, all the things to survive and also thrive, and that's the right thing to do for humanity, but it's also better for business, better for outcomes. You can't get organizational results with a sick workforce or a workforce that's in pain. And so what you're doing is just so fantastic. It's so mission-driven and really grateful that you're doing this work. What...
jim_feng (35:00.869)
Absolutely.
angela_r_howard (35:11.562)
What is kind of a wrap up or what do you want the audience to know before we head out?
jim_feng (35:17.099)
No, thank you for that. I think, you know, ultimately I came into this game for better human prevention, right? So, and better human performance. So, you know, if you're struggling out there right now, it could be your workforce, it could just be you, right? It could just be you like struggling either with mental health or physical health, you know, and you're thinking back like, why am I struggling? And where do I seek help?
I think first step is take massive action. Just take massive action and stop thinking about it. Stop getting wound up on the ifs and what. Just ask for help and I think that's number one. Just get out there, ask for help and you'll start finding solutions that might be a better fit for you, right? So taking that massive action is really important. And I do have to say that, you know, from the patients, from...
probably be, you know, the last 15 years of, you know, treating patients and understanding humans and how they behave, probably about 15% of the population, I would say, of our population anyways, actually work on prevention, about 15%, right? That come in and do some kind of stuff. And then, you know, after a bit of trust around, you know, what we do, and we are able to double that, right? Double that number, but it's still a small portion of the population, I think more people can do more. And also,
You know, when that happens, they get so much more out of it because empowering yourself to be able to fix your own issues, not only is it cheaper for your bottom line, your pockets, number two, you're gonna be feeling so much better. And for some people, it's literally night and day in regards to their energy level and their outlook of life, right? And what they're able to achieve, their next level of work and where are they able to go? And with...
angela_r_howard (36:50.155)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (36:59.31)
Hmm.
jim_feng (37:09.075)
I think with that you're gaining progress and progress really important is really important for happiness, right? So overall and from people who struggle with mental health like the mental health is a harder thing to tackle the physical things Because you can't touch it feel it and it's harder to turn things around Where the physical health you can you can start doing something now today, right? That's gonna give you a positive benefit You can drive those natural endorphins by just going for you know, a 15 20 minute, you know speeded
upright walk, right? And then your neck pain can reduce just by doing a quick brugger stretch. Looks like a double chin. Like there's many things you can do and it's not just a healthcare practitioner that needs to do it for you. It's really you taking, you know, you're taking control of your health. That's really important because right now our system, our health system, is not a health system. It's a disease care model, right? Right now. There's no preventative stuff. There's some minor things but hardly ever funded really well.
angela_r_howard (37:38.134)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (37:42.984)
Hehehehe
angela_r_howard (37:59.16)
Hmm.
jim_feng (38:05.471)
We know that's the solution. We know that the output of that is significantly higher than just prescribing metformin. It's just prescribing anti-inflammatories that can ruin your gut. It's way bigger than that. So take in that preventative now. Do that thing. If it's exercise, if it's movement, if it's mindfulness, whatever that is, take that action to try it on your own or ask for help if you're really in a bad place. Do that now. Don't even think about it, just do that now.
angela_r_howard (38:17.198)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (38:34.458)
I love it. Thank you so much, Jim. So appreciated and grateful for you and your work. Thank you for your time and your insights. This was wonderful. And, you know, let's keep talking about this mission driven work and sustainability. And I love the fact that we were able to pair up and kind of talk about these two things together. So thank you.
jim_feng (38:38.72)
No problem.
jim_feng (38:53.223)
Absolutely. Yeah, no problem at all. I'm really looking forward towards your Your book as well that's coming up soon. I hope and I'd love to hear more about all these things
angela_r_howard (39:03.106)
Thank you so much, Jim.
