The Power of Sensitive Organizations with Ciela Hartanov
angela_r_howard (00:02.486)
Welcome, Ciela. It is so good to have you on the podcast. I'm excited to talk about all things future of work, what's next, innovation around work, and really it's a treat to have you on the podcast. Thanks for joining us.
ciela_hartanov (00:20.149)
Thank you Angela, it's so nice to be here and these are the things I love talking about and my interest areas so I'm sure we'll have a great time together.
angela_r_howard (00:28.694)
Yes, yes, and so Ciela, I know you have a fabulous background and you're also building this empire of your own with a new book coming out, by the way, so I wanna hear all about that, but tell us a little bit about your background and what your mission is, what you're working towards.
ciela_hartanov (00:41.343)
Yeah.
ciela_hartanov (00:44.841)
Sure, happy to. Yeah, so I am a cultural psychologist by training and so that's where my doctorate degree is in. And most people don't know what cultural psychology is, so I just wanna give you a little bit of a glimpse into what cultural psychology is because it's really informed how I do my work and how I think. So cultural psychology is an interdisciplinary, multidisciplinary I should say.
way of thinking about organizations, the world, how sort of human beings are built. So it mixes in sociology, psychology, and anthropology as a way for us to understand the human condition. And then I layer that on the human condition inside the workplace because I have an organization development background as well. So that's where I come from sort of from an academic lens. And I've used that a lot in my career.
I've spent all of my career, except for a small stint early on in, at a small consulting firm, always in technology. So I'm very interested in how do we use technology to drive the type of world we want to be building, because technology we've always had. We've always had some sort of tools as human beings. But it's up to us to decide how those tools get utilized, how they enliven our...
lives or not. So working in technology has always been fascinating to me because it's a laboratory where we are building these technologies that collide against what really matters to me, of course, is continuing to embolden the ability to thrive as a human being. So in technology, I've worked a long time sort of thinking about that idea in a couple of different
angela_r_howard (02:21.678)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (02:31.376)
Mm-hmm.
ciela_hartanov (02:43.645)
consultant, so working with leaders across different, in-house, working with leaders across different functions, helping them think about, how do I create a more effective organization? And in my last five years at Google, which I'm now departed and I run my own firm, but in the last five years of Google, I built an innovation lab. And the innovation lab, just to put it simply, was focused on the future of leadership and work.
And how do we think about this in a new way so that we can finally break free from the industrial era logic? I left Google about a year and a half ago to go out on my own and bring this to other organizations. And this relates to my mission in that I think we need to democratize the ability to think wider.
angela_r_howard (03:16.999)
Mm-hmm.
ciela_hartanov (03:31.937)
to think more holistically about how we build organizations. And it shouldn't just be large technology firms that have the finances that are doing that. Certainly, it's helpful for someone to lead the way. But I want every organization to get the opportunity to say, what's next for us? And how do we be on the cutting edge? And how do we create thriving organizations and be part of this movement? So that was my intention when I left Google. And that's what I'm doing now is
really spending a lot of my time thinking about how do we really deliver on the future of work and that requires every organization to be part of.
angela_r_howard (04:13.686)
Oh, I love that. And our stories are very similar in that I also left corporate America to scale this work of culture change, culture transformation. And so I love your mission. I love the fact that you have taken your learnings and you're using it to apply it to more of a movement. That's really the goal is to.
ciela_hartanov (04:26.401)
Hmm.
ciela_hartanov (04:39.696)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (04:41.578)
make this accessible and bring insights and realization to actually change the world of work, not just the future of work, but how work is actually going to exist in the future and now.
ciela_hartanov (04:50.688)
Yeah.
That's it. It's an audacious goal. And I have to say, there's so many of us in this space and I'm happy to hear that you're also part of this. And it's no coincidence to me that there's a groundswell of people saying, okay, let's step forward now. Now's the time to make this movement. And can we decide together as a collective how we want work to look and be in the next five to 10 years?
angela_r_howard (04:56.954)
Hehehe
angela_r_howard (05:16.063)
Mm-hmm.
ciela_hartanov (05:21.109)
This is our moment and I really think it's important that we take it.
angela_r_howard (05:26.994)
I love it. And can you tell us a little bit about your because you've had these opportunities in different containers, right at Google before, but now with your own firm, Hum Collective. If we could like something because I think we could be on a podcast, probably for hours and days talking about the amount of research that's out there. But do you have some consolidated thoughts or insights that are really important for us to think about kind of right now as we're looking in
ciela_hartanov (05:34.428)
Mm-hmm.
ciela_hartanov (05:44.87)
Yeah.
angela_r_howard (05:53.938)
into the future of work, which is actually right now.
ciela_hartanov (05:57.217)
Yeah, it's a great question and I would say it sort of depends on directionally where we're looking. But I'll share with you what is top of mind for me and what I think is important to pay attention to at this moment. The first is looking at the nature of culture and connection inside the organization. Short hand we call this organizational culture.
angela_r_howard (06:03.211)
Mm.
ciela_hartanov (06:22.873)
I do think organizational culture is shifting and changing. So there is some newer research, and I just published a report out around what I'm finding in terms of how organizational culture as a strategy is changing. And business leaders who are relying on the old tools to build organizational alignment and glue, I think are going to find themselves disappointed that
that the old ways don't work anymore. So that's one piece that I'm really paying attention to and is essential because we don't have organizations, there's no such thing as an organization as if there's no glue that holds that organization together. So that's one piece of the puzzle. The second piece that I'm really watching and paying attention to is how the social contract between employer and employee is changing.
angela_r_howard (07:03.819)
Yes.
ciela_hartanov (07:14.629)
Over the next five years, I would anticipate that the way we understand the relationship between corporation and employee is going to be dramatically different. And I do see organizations who are really on the edge of this making some bold moves about their choices around what is the relationship in the contract. And this is tricky to adjust because there's a lot of legal ramifications.
for what a contract looks like. And we know that because part of what's been really tricky in the gig economy is figuring out how do you bring consultants in, where is the line between a full-time employee and someone who's contracted into your organization. That conversation is going to pale in comparison to the conversation that we're going to be evolving into about the social contract. And that conversation will be about what is
angela_r_howard (07:42.455)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (07:52.931)
Hmm.
ciela_hartanov (08:11.353)
work itself in society and how do we agree on what work is and then how do organizations and people sort of align to this new way of understanding work. So that's another piece of the puzzle that I'm really paying attention to. Then the next piece of the puzzle that I'm paying attention to, which is sort of an overlay and is basically going to continue to be a real challenge for
angela_r_howard (08:13.559)
Hmm.
ciela_hartanov (08:41.001)
this unprecedented level of change that we're inside of. And it's just gonna continue happening. This is what I call emergence. And so what that starts to do is all of your strategy planning processes need to shift. The way you even think about business outcomes and what does it mean to have an effective business is up for conversation and debate in the context of all of these unknowns and uncertainties. Because we can't just
angela_r_howard (08:59.753)
Hmm.
ciela_hartanov (09:10.697)
be smart enough, we need to be more adaptable and accept that we don't have all the answers. And this is just a whole different way of running a business.
angela_r_howard (09:21.454)
Yeah, and that's, you know, we were talking earlier when we first got on the call, is what I call the overlay or the convergence of business interests and personal interests or employee interests. And it's, I'm almost like envisioning, for those of you who are listening, I'm doing like a Venn diagram, you know, visual here, which is how do we get those, that middle part as large as possible, but also,
ciela_hartanov (09:33.761)
Mm-hmm.
ciela_hartanov (09:42.593)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe hehehe hehehe
angela_r_howard (09:50.854)
understand there's gonna be some outliers that we have to, I think, research a little bit more and really understand this question which you pose, which is what is work of the future? And so, I guess from your perspective, I mean, the other thing we talked about was connection, right, and belonging and community and how important that is. And now that we have a dispersed workforce, how are we creating intention? Because we know that culture,
ciela_hartanov (10:09.525)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (10:20.726)
to it, culture happens, regardless if you shape it or not. It's really the, right, it just is. So I think a lot of times people don't realize that, that if you're not intentionally looking at your organizational culture and the strategy around it and checking in on that and evolving and being nimble enough to change it and adapt it, it's gonna take over, the weeds are gonna grow because you're not tending to your garden. So.
ciela_hartanov (10:24.561)
That's right. It is, it just is.
angela_r_howard (10:50.742)
What are your thoughts around that and how can business leaders get ahead of and start future proofing around some of this?
ciela_hartanov (10:57.257)
Yeah. So I think we have to be really clear that there are sacrifices that are going to have to be made. And I recognize that's probably not a popular opinion. But we are sort of in this moment where there's a pendulum that's swinging back and forth between employees having a lot more say. And now we're sort of entering a moment right now where they're because of the.
You know, we're watching the economics, of course, and we're starting to see that there's signs that the economics are shifting, which means that employees won't have as much choice. And this is always sort of happening all of the time. And so the moment really requires us to decide what are we optimizing for, at what point, and that often is dictated because of external demands.
and businesses that are more responsive to how the pendulum is swinging and realizing when is it that they need to take the employee input and prioritize that and make that the center? And when does it make more sense for them to start thinking about the business piece of it in the context of what's happening around their business and the economy and whatnot? So this is really the work.
angela_r_howard (12:14.145)
Mm-hmm.
ciela_hartanov (12:17.905)
of leadership right now is figuring how to work inside this dynamic, which is really challenging because for so long the organization has been considered the boss and been considered primary. And there was a subjugation that was expected of employees and accepted by employees.
angela_r_howard (12:31.202)
Hmm. Yeah. Yes.
angela_r_howard (12:41.219)
Hmm.
ciela_hartanov (12:42.321)
And now we're entering a moment where the dynamic is changing. And this is what I mean sort of by the social contract. So as this relates to connection and culture, I think you have to not expect that you're going to have the same type of culture or the same type of connective tissue that you've had before. And a lot of how culture has been built inside organizations are things.
like perks, especially in Silicon Valley, you know, you show up and there's a slide and there's candy in the breakout room and all that stuff. It's been built on things like employee engagement, and I have a really big problem with employee engagement if we want to talk about that sometime we can because that is a manipulation tactic essentially.
angela_r_howard (13:18.303)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (13:28.784)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (13:32.519)
Oh yeah, I would love to hear about your perspective.
angela_r_howard (13:40.013)
Mmm.
ciela_hartanov (13:41.189)
And that has been utilized to create loyalty, an emotional connection and loyalty to the organization. So that tactics not gonna work for very much longer because employees are getting hit to what's happening. So that's not working anymore. And so the reason why these things are not working anymore is because of the context and these emergent factors that are pushing the organization. Of course, businesses
angela_r_howard (13:52.162)
Hmm.
ciela_hartanov (14:09.917)
would not have wanted this, but there's no choice because the pendulum swung out. And now the train has left the station and so they have to work with that in a different way. So some of the ways that I think about working with that are one, we need to get clear that there's probably not this thing called an organizational culture with, you know,
ciela_hartanov (14:40.229)
It needs to be viewed as much more a networked effect and a collaborative and co-creation effect. And that's a real shift in philosophy because we've taught so many organizations to build values, to push them down, to tell people what this organization is, and to run all of these sort of mechanisms to make alignment happen.
angela_r_howard (14:46.597)
Mm.
ciela_hartanov (15:06.177)
that I don't think is going to work anymore because of the fact that as people become more distributed in different places, are able to understand how they need to personalize their own work life, to meet their own needs for meaning and purpose, you're going to have such a disparity across people around their choices, their interests, their hopes, their dreams, and those are now allowed to be part of the conversation.
that you're better off looking at where are the nodes of connection and like-minded that already exist inside an organization and then amplify. So there's a difference between sort of stepping in and being an amplifier versus being the decider and being someone who's driving accountability. So that's one piece of the puzzle is really looking at nodes and the networked connection and culture.
angela_r_howard (15:40.322)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (15:51.267)
Mm.
ciela_hartanov (15:59.749)
And then the second one is about employee, it was moving from this idea of employee engagement to moving to employee experience. We've already done this with customers and now we need to do it with employees to say that they're a primary stakeholder in the conversation about the type of organizations we build and how they experience every single day when they show up on the job, how they experience this place is information data and we have to collect it and we have to respond to it.
angela_r_howard (16:08.376)
Mm.
ciela_hartanov (16:30.105)
versus what employee engagement does is try to get you emotionally invested through a lot of different means. That's right.
angela_r_howard (16:37.27)
Yeah, how long are you gonna stay? How long are we gonna retain you? You know, the questions that you always see, you know, will you be here for the next two years? Yeah, I totally agree with you. Yeah.
ciela_hartanov (16:41.661)
That's right. Will you be here? Do you have a best friend here? I actually don't think it should matter if you have a best friend at work. I understand why they're asking that, because that means you're connected emotionally to the people and then the place. I understand why that gets asked. But a better question is, what is your personal experience here at work? And where do you feel alive, and when don't you?
angela_r_howard (16:53.026)
Hmm. Yeah.
angela_r_howard (16:58.891)
Mmm.
angela_r_howard (17:08.206)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (17:11.786)
Yes. And are there barriers to the experience that are causing you to not provide the full brilliance and the talent that you have? And I love what you're saying because I think we have traditionally thought about the employer-employee relationship.
ciela_hartanov (17:18.939)
Mm-hmm.
ciela_hartanov (17:23.08)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (17:33.702)
as a loyalty kind of family type of relationship. I hear a lot of organizations say, we're family here. And I'm like, you know what? A lot of families I know, including my own, can be a little dysfunctional. So I don't want another family. I want a community of really smart people who have similar and different views than me, who are gonna make me a better person overall. And I think that's a really, you know, working with
ciela_hartanov (17:46.401)
Hehehehe
Yeah.
ciela_hartanov (17:59.83)
Yeah.
angela_r_howard (18:02.37)
lots of different types of organizations. I think that's a really tough thing to swallow because this idea of loyalty is so important. I'm not gonna invest in someone who's not loyal. I'm not going to hire someone who's not loyal. I am not going to mentor or sponsor someone who's not loyal or wanting to stay with my company for more than a few years. So I totally agree that the contract is changing to creating a destination where people can do their best work. That should be the goal.
ciela_hartanov (18:09.085)
Mm-hmm.
ciela_hartanov (18:21.653)
Yeah.
angela_r_howard (18:31.91)
not creating a company where you're going to stay there for 20 years and be burnt out and not happy.
ciela_hartanov (18:40.017)
No, and this idea of loyalty has been in question for a long time. I mean, I would say probably at least seven years, right? We've been saying like, that's not really the bar, but we're having a hard time shaking it. That, that loyalty is the, is the end game and
angela_r_howard (18:56.352)
Mm.
ciela_hartanov (19:01.841)
And part of it is because when you sign on that dotted line into an organization, you sign away things, you assign away things that makes it so that they own you. You know, they own your, your IP. Like, you know, like for me, it's like someone who's a researcher and a strategist and does a lot of thinking. Like if I'm, I've been signed in an organization, I have to sign a piece of paper that says that they get to own my ideas. Employees are not going to let that be okay. They're going to say, no, you don't own me.
angela_r_howard (19:13.449)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (19:32.978)
Yeah. So what does that, yes, a partnership. Yeah, I like to think that we're moving more towards, this is a partnership, and the time that we are together as partners is the experience, right? But there is no ownership. And I can understand you having some.
ciela_hartanov (19:33.489)
We are in a relationship, but you don't own me.
Yes.
ciela_hartanov (19:52.853)
That's right.
angela_r_howard (19:56.578)
I've started building my own business, you've started building your own business. This is our baby, right? We are putting a lot of tender loving care into this idea, into this movement, into this thing that is going to evolve over time. But the mentality for me is very different than what I've seen for maybe more traditional business leaders where it's, wherever I can.
ciela_hartanov (20:01.643)
Hehehe
ciela_hartanov (20:07.528)
Mm-hmm.
ciela_hartanov (20:18.385)
Yeah.
angela_r_howard (20:21.646)
capture someone's time and talent and create really clear expectations and maybe drive some inspiration and excitement with an individual, whether that's two weeks or two years. It doesn't really matter to me as long as we're being communicative with each other and partners to each other. So after a month, things aren't working out.
ciela_hartanov (20:41.509)
I like that a lot.
angela_r_howard (20:45.334)
let's have the conversation. Like I, as a leader, I'm checking in with the people that I hire onto my team, whether they're 1099s or full-time employees, but there's never this idea or this, and I almost feel like it's showing up as a little bit of trauma with people that I've worked with because I've had people come to me like, you know, I really wanna do this other thing, but I was really scared to talk to you about it.
ciela_hartanov (20:52.038)
Mm-hmm.
ciela_hartanov (21:03.041)
Come on.
angela_r_howard (21:10.318)
And that just shouldn't be happening. We should be able to have those open conversations about what inspiration brings us to the next opportunity.
ciela_hartanov (21:13.722)
Yeah.
ciela_hartanov (21:17.525)
We should be. And it's interesting that you bring up the idea of sort of trauma, because I'm thinking right now a lot about identity at work, which will probably be my next book, not the one that's coming out. But I already have this other idea floating around, which is a knock-on effect from this employee engagement stuff. And then you have to get loyal, and then your identity becomes usurped and part of this organization.
angela_r_howard (21:31.702)
Hmm. Hahaha. Yes.
angela_r_howard (21:40.394)
Mmm.
ciela_hartanov (21:47.573)
And in some ways that can be traumatizing because what ends up happening is you don't know who you are, what your voice is, what you really want outside of the constructs of what an organization is telling you. So in some ways I'm not surprised that someone would say I'm scared of telling you. It doesn't have anything to do with you Angela, it has to do with their history of what
angela_r_howard (21:55.54)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (22:03.576)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (22:11.914)
Alright, yes.
ciela_hartanov (22:15.493)
what has been expected of them to subjugate their wants, their identity, to what the organization has sort of demanded of them. In exchange for this full-time employment, what we will likely see as we see turnover in age ranges inside an organization is that this will just become even more exacerbated because people will say
angela_r_howard (22:27.478)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (22:42.502)
Mm-hmm.
ciela_hartanov (22:45.469)
an organization has never been loyal to me in the time and all of my life, you know, they'd never seen that. And I wanna be self authored and I want to pursue my interests and I wanna have, you know, what you could call a portfolio career. I wanna be collecting experiences and interests to keep both myself enlivened, but also to keep me relevant because skills are going out of favor so quickly, right? And so the...
angela_r_howard (22:50.57)
I'm going to go to bed.
angela_r_howard (23:04.747)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
ciela_hartanov (23:12.169)
People are gonna step forward to just take control of that themselves. So if you're trying to just keep people constrained inside the box of an organization, you're gonna lose because the best talent are the ones who are going to be architecting all of the time and gathering. So you gotta figure out how you're gonna leverage these different people and make it compelling. And they may be inside lots of different pockets of community. And so this is why I say,
angela_r_howard (23:23.125)
Mm.
ciela_hartanov (23:41.345)
they're not gonna be aligned to one big organizational culture. They're gonna be inside all of these different pockets of community that fill them and fill their idea of what is their sort of personal culture that they want to be inside of.
angela_r_howard (23:45.826)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (23:58.322)
Yeah, so I think this is why, you know, to your point, things like values, we've been taught that values don't change. We've been taught these alignment pieces are stagnant. And I think mission and purpose is going to be even more important. You know, we're seeing with Gen Zers, I think it was Deloitte, they publish a yearly report on
ciela_hartanov (24:10.119)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (24:25.654)
generations, like who's coming into leadership, upcoming work trends. I mean, we know, we're seeing the conversations about social responsibility and mission and ESG. And people are not connecting with the organization, they're not connecting with this brand, they're connecting with how much of their talent can be put towards moving the needle on something, whether that's a global cause, a personal cause. And I think the string that you mentioned between
ciela_hartanov (24:26.229)
Hmm.
ciela_hartanov (24:29.82)
Yeah.
angela_r_howard (24:55.434)
these pockets of community is I have a mission and these organizations are aligning with the needle that I wanna move. And that might be one organization, that might be five, that might be starting my own business and working for an organization. But it's more focused on the experience that I'm going to receive and the impact I can make on the world or my community or the mission that I'm focused on.
ciela_hartanov (25:08.464)
Bye.
ciela_hartanov (25:12.329)
Mm-hmm.
ciela_hartanov (25:21.737)
That's right, about what you care about and what you care about together with other people. And then you find, you find the people.
angela_r_howard (25:29.822)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (25:34.402)
Right, yeah, and I think that is, it sounds very simple, it sounds simple and easy, but I think there are some constraints to the traditional workplace, this industrial age workplace that you were talking about before. So how does this impact, so what we're saying is organizational culture, what it is, we have to rethink it. How we've approached it in the past, we have to rethink it.
What does this mean for connection and belonging and community within an organization or multiple organizations? Because I talk to a lot of leaders, a lot of executives who have told their people to come back to the office. We've seen the news stories, right? Elon Musk just said, come back to the office 40 hours a week or you can leave.
ciela_hartanov (26:08.02)
Mm-hmm.
ciela_hartanov (26:18.292)
Mmm.
ciela_hartanov (26:21.897)
We have.
angela_r_howard (26:26.806)
What does that mean for these leaders who are assuming that working in a space in an office for 40 hours a week is culture? What are your what are your thoughts concerns? What's your perspective?
ciela_hartanov (26:40.242)
Right.
So I'm not saying that it, I wouldn't say that it's not because it has been a forcing mechanism for culture, but it's not the new way, it's the old way.
It will be fascinating to watch what employees do when these mandates happen. And like I, going back to what I said before, this is all within the context of, of where and how employees have choice. So if employees have choice, they will make, they will decide if they are in a situation where they have to go into the office and they need that paycheck, then you have less discretion to decide. So I want to be clear that.
in many ways making these types of radical acts against the organization or the old way often comes with a state of privilege. And that's part of some of the challenge in the future of work is how do we get this democratized in a way that everyone can have a more thriving work, life and culture and have more choices in the context of whatever the business requirements.
angela_r_howard (27:35.234)
Yes.
ciela_hartanov (27:52.893)
So that's just a little aside, but I think it's important for us to acknowledge that there's not just one type of future of work or one type of worker that's sort of at play here. So with Elon Musk, you know, I don't know the shape of his organization well enough to know who's going to be able to walk if they want to and who's not. And that makes me sad because he is
angela_r_howard (28:05.39)
That's a great point.
ciela_hartanov (28:22.057)
He's using this as a news story. He's using this to elevate his own profile. You know, he's very good at that. He's great at sort of being inside the media and being provocative. But whether or not he believes that this is a culture move or not, I'm not convinced. I think it's a media move. And unfortunately, his employees are gonna get the downstream impacts of his lack of perspective.
angela_r_howard (28:30.319)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (28:40.226)
Hmm. Okay.
ciela_hartanov (28:51.049)
or consideration perhaps. Now, I don't know him personally, and this is all speculation, but that's the way it strikes me, versus if you look at someone, hope he doesn't listen to this podcast, versus if you look at someone like Brian Chesky out of Airbnb, I don't know him either. And they are taking a very different PR approach too, to what they're pushing out inside of the media. But the way it comes across,
angela_r_howard (29:04.086)
Who knows?
angela_r_howard (29:15.959)
Mm-hmm.
ciela_hartanov (29:21.285)
is that they have been deeply considered about the employee experience, about what people are asking for, and about that inside the business that they're running. They run a business that's based on experience and travel and exploring the world. That is a beautiful marriage. Those things go together really well. Let's make a move and do that. What I hope is that we'll start to see people who are willing to explore and be less entrenched.
angela_r_howard (29:40.249)
Mm.
ciela_hartanov (29:52.281)
and move forward. I don't know if I'm completely answering your question, but I think it's helpful for us to sort of watch and look at real examples around choices that people are making and why.
angela_r_howard (30:03.338)
Yeah, well, yeah, I know you absolutely are answering the question. Because I think what you're saying, what I'm hearing is it is about that employee experience of listening to the to your people. And I think that has to be a that has to be a real time. Opportunity for leaders, right? I think sometimes we talk about the engagement survey, which comes once a year or these like these.
ciela_hartanov (30:24.271)
Yeah.
angela_r_howard (30:29.986)
point in time mechanisms that are meant to capture something when reality, I think good leadership is closing the gap between what the executive leadership team thinks is going on and what they think is best for the company and what's actually happening on the ground. I think as organizations grow, that gap becomes wider and wider.
ciela_hartanov (30:46.913)
That's right.
angela_r_howard (30:53.898)
In the beginning, when you're building a business, you know everything about your business. You know all the people in your business. You know their needs. You know how to create equity to make sure that everyone has what they need to be successful. But as businesses grow, that gap widens. And I think sometimes we lose sight of that. And then you have this executive team who's making all the decisions and saying, yes, we have a culture of flexibility or inclusion or whatever buzzword.
ciela_hartanov (30:54.89)
Right.
ciela_hartanov (31:20.128)
Mm-hmm. That's right.
angela_r_howard (31:20.246)
they heard in a book, but everyone else is like, everyone else is like, no, that's not happening here. It's just not. So I think that's the key. I think the key is to listen.
ciela_hartanov (31:26.322)
Yeah.
ciela_hartanov (31:31.061)
That is the key. The key is to listen and also when it comes to things like organization, culture and belonging and sort of an organization structure, then you have to decide, then you have to make hard calls. So you could argue that Elon Musk is making a hard call and he's considered it and that's what his choice is. My view.
angela_r_howard (31:48.127)
Yes.
ciela_hartanov (31:55.777)
and I've done a little bit around studying belonging. And one of the things that I understand about belonging is that you have to be clear about what people are opting into, and then you have to create an invitation to come inside. So one of the things that I see sometimes with organizations is when they're fuzzy, you can't be fuzzy. And so this is where there's a paradox, because you gotta listen, you have to be adaptable, you need to make considered moves that are about what...
angela_r_howard (32:14.056)
Mm-hmm.
ciela_hartanov (32:24.509)
the employees are asking for because they're telling you how the future of work is changing and what the future of their needs are. They're telling you. But then you have to be clear about what you're actually deciding and be so clear around the purpose, the mission, how you are going to roll inside of this new environment so that people can either say, yes, I want that or no, I don't.
angela_r_howard (32:29.2)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (32:34.807)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (32:49.834)
Yes, and that is the... Sorry. No, no, keep going.
ciela_hartanov (32:50.353)
And early, yeah, go ahead. I was just gonna say early in the flexible sort of pandemic and people wondering what to do, this was a really interesting dynamic because what I was watching is organizations looking at everybody else and being like, you go first. And their employees are like, I don't know what's happening. Can you just tell me, either tell me your thinking.
angela_r_howard (33:10.122)
Yes.
ciela_hartanov (33:17.569)
Tell me sort of where you're at so I can make my own choices here. But the business wasn't making sort of a stand. And when I say stand, I don't mean a hard line. I just mean be transparent with where you're at so that your employees understand that.
angela_r_howard (33:18.473)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (33:36.486)
Yes, 100%. And that was what I was going to mention with Elon Musk. As much as we perhaps, like I don't align with his leadership values or how he shows up, I'm not saying this was the right move. But at least he was clear. He gave the opportunity for people to opt out or opt in. Where I think there are other organizations that are saying things like hybrid work. We're a hybrid workplace. And then.
ciela_hartanov (33:51.925)
he was clear.
ciela_hartanov (34:02.847)
Yeah.
angela_r_howard (34:05.218)
But you have this undertone of, but actually, we're only giving the opportunities for the people we could see in the office. We value people being in the office more because we see butts in seats. There's this undertone of things we're not saying, but it's showing up in our actions and behaviors, which is actually culture. At the end of the day, that's your actual culture versus what you've put on your website.
ciela_hartanov (34:17.689)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
ciela_hartanov (34:23.95)
Exactly.
ciela_hartanov (34:29.313)
Absolutely, and I couldn't agree with you more. I gave a keynote a while back to a talent acquisition team. They said, we're having challenges with the retention. What do we do? And the first thing I said is you need to get clear. Don't say, oh, we're hybrid. And then you work it out with your manager. It's like, that is a non-answer and employees are not gonna opt in for that because they want you to be clear so that they can be clear if they're gonna get their needs met here or not. And that's a hard...
angela_r_howard (34:39.83)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (34:58.035)
Exactly.
ciela_hartanov (34:59.329)
hard things sometimes with organizations because you really are going to lose people by being clear, but you're also going to gain the right people who can work with what you're establishing and with what your mission is and what you've decided your purpose is in the world.
angela_r_howard (35:17.938)
Exactly, and to your point, it's a lot like customer experience, right? If I look online and I'm looking for a brand of toothpaste, right? And I see that Target has it, and I drive all the way to Target, and they don't have it, I'm upset. It's the same thing with the employee experience. You've told me during the interviews, this is the culture we're creating together, or I can contribute to this, or this is the experience I'm going to have.
ciela_hartanov (35:21.409)
Mm-hmm.
ciela_hartanov (35:34.154)
Yeah
That's right.
ciela_hartanov (35:43.201)
Thank you.
angela_r_howard (35:47.178)
And I drive all the way out there, you know, symbolically, I take the job and it's not there. And that is a huge source of, you know, disengagement of, you know, turnover of, you know, lack of clarity and alignment around what I signed up for and what actually is happening here.
ciela_hartanov (35:51.128)
Mm-hmm.
ciela_hartanov (36:00.31)
Mm-hmm.
ciela_hartanov (36:10.141)
Right, and that is what erodes trust. And if we think about really at the foundation of what we need, we don't need necessarily loyalty. What we need is trust.
angela_r_howard (36:14.626)
Yes.
ciela_hartanov (36:21.453)
I would say that that's what we need to move towards. And so what is trust built on becomes the question. The trust is built on transparency. Trust is built on, I know where you stand. I know what it's gonna be like when I show up to Target and what it, you know, if the toothpaste is gonna be there, for example. I know that, you know, you align in these ways or you don't align in these ways. And okay, I know that so I can trust that. So,
angela_r_howard (36:21.942)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (36:35.231)
Yes.
ciela_hartanov (36:51.469)
That becomes the question right now is what does it look like to build a trusting organization because we're in such a time of all this change and emergence. Trust is all we've got. We don't have like stabilized business strategies. We don't have stabilized employee strategies either and because of that we need trust over loyalty.
angela_r_howard (36:57.452)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (37:20.81)
Yes, and back to your original point, I think trust is, unfortunately, it's another element that did not exist, at least on the employer to employee side. There's this inherent mistrust of, like, employee is taking advantage of me. Employee is, if we give them this freedom, they're going to take advantage of it. And that is another piece that we, it has to change on both sides.
ciela_hartanov (37:35.603)
Yeah.
ciela_hartanov (37:39.209)
Hmm
ciela_hartanov (37:43.829)
That's right.
angela_r_howard (37:49.89)
is trust in the employee or the contract or whatever employee relationship there is, but then also the trust of the employer to the worker, to the person who they're partnering with to provide some service. And then creating structures where trust is built into the structures. I talked to some leaders and simple things like,
ciela_hartanov (37:50.171)
Yeah.
ciela_hartanov (38:04.289)
Mm-hmm.
ciela_hartanov (38:14.746)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (38:19.51)
well, if we put snacks out, people are gonna steal all the snacks. Like, if you're instilling that kind of mentality, if you're saying that out loud, that's a little thing, but it really gets to kind of the underbelly of this idea of mistrust. And that employers should have their radar up because employees are gonna take advantage of that.
ciela_hartanov (38:26.1)
Yeah.
ciela_hartanov (38:43.685)
Right. And I just wonder what that means anyway, taking advantage. I mean, it's an exchange. So, but if you think also, I mean, really what we're talking about is the crux of human behavior and I think, I believe in sort of human psychology that you either sort of have a trusting disposition or an untrusting disposition. So.
angela_r_howard (38:48.33)
Yeah. Yes.
angela_r_howard (39:11.376)
Mm-hmm.
ciela_hartanov (39:13.105)
It's important for leaders who are running organizations to examine for themselves. What is my operating disposition around trust? And am I the type who will say, well, you're trustworthy until proven otherwise, or you're not trustworthy until you prove it to me. And
leaders fall in one of those two camps. And I'm sure we've all worked for different leaders who've had a different orientation. And it's not unlike growth mindset when you're teaching children, like, is failure valuable and it'll teach you something and just keep trying, or intelligence is fixed and if you don't get an A, then you're a failure. Like that seeps into the child's development. Well, the same is true about the orientation around trust.
angela_r_howard (39:47.758)
Mm.
ciela_hartanov (40:02.613)
the leader has and that seeps into the organization they're building. So this sort of ravels back to something that's quite pragmatic to do, which is a leader examining the seat of their trust orientation.
angela_r_howard (40:14.679)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (40:19.27)
Yeah, and I love the idea of leaders doing that self-awareness and then looking around to see, because leadership is a social contagion in a way, right? So your philosophy around leadership, and culture, just like culture and society, right, is kind of like this slow build that compiles over time. So I think the self-awareness of leaders, founders, executives, people at that
ciela_hartanov (40:32.823)
Totally.
angela_r_howard (40:48.778)
level where decisions are being made, I think is a really important piece. And we're, you know, leadership is a journey, we never arrive. So we have the opportunity to change our minds and have that conversation and to change the course of what we want our culture to look like, feel like, and how we wanna operate.
ciela_hartanov (40:59.616)
That's right.
ciela_hartanov (41:08.425)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think it behooves every leader to look at that because if we go back to what I said about where culture is living now, it's inside these pockets of people that you see in your Zoom room. And this is the pocket of culture. It doesn't really matter what the comms team sends out on behalf of the CEO. That pocket. And so whoever is
angela_r_howard (41:17.762)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (41:28.951)
Alright.
ciela_hartanov (41:33.841)
And the hierarchy on top of that pocket is the one who is pushing in the cultural contagion, to your point. So that becomes us really thinking about leadership as being pervasive and everywhere, which we've talked about, but it's more true now than ever, that it's living in all the nooks and crannies of the digital environment.
angela_r_howard (41:39.478)
Hmm. Yeah.
angela_r_howard (41:48.095)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (41:52.601)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (41:59.922)
Well, I feel like we could do a whole other podcast on leadership because it's another just fascinating topic. But we talked, I mean, we talked about a lot today. And I, you know, I just really want to send all my gratitude to you for taking the time and sharing just very applicable, you know, tangible things that we can start to think about to think about the future of work.
ciela_hartanov (42:02.685)
We should. I have a lot of thoughts about leadership.
ciela_hartanov (42:10.166)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (42:29.246)
it could feel like this fuzzy concept that's happening in the future, but it's actually, it's right now, like we're, the motions are in place to change this. And so we talked about the idea of organizational alignment and what culture is and how it's not gonna be this top-down mechanism. There's going to be more organic development of culture that has this string tied through around commonalities.
I think purpose and mission is going to be the new overarching piece that aligns to organizations but also individuals and people will opt in or opt out of those things. And it's increasingly important that organizations are clear and are creating clarity so that people can join the work or say, you know what, that's not for me. Elon Musk wants us back 40 hours a week in the office.
that doesn't match with my lifestyle or mission. So I'm gonna respectfully opt out of that. So there's a lot of change happening. And so I wanna hear a little bit about your book because I know your book touches on a lot of these things. So tell us more about the book and what we can expect.
ciela_hartanov (43:36.309)
Mmm, it does.
Thank you for asking. So it'll be out early next year. It's called Reclaiming Sensitivity. And it's really about a philosophy on the new future of work, as well as a set of pragmatic guidelines on what leaders, organizations, and ourselves can do to be more sensitive. And I'm using sensitive in a way that really means to be able...
to use all of our acuity as human beings, where we are able to sense and respond to uncharted terrain. We know how to shift and be fit for purpose. This is what evolution is all about. And yet we have forgotten that or pushed it out of the organization. So my argument is let's bring it back in and let's build more sensing selves, more sensitive leadership and more sensitive organizations so we can adapt and respond.
angela_r_howard (44:12.374)
Mm.
ciela_hartanov (44:38.017)
to this emergent terrain and do it in a way that is humane and thriving and delivers, I believe, on the future of work that we all are hoping for.
angela_r_howard (44:51.338)
Well, Ciela, it was so such an honor to have you on the podcast. I am so happy we had a chance to meet and chat. We will make sure to include just the name of your book. Once it comes out, we'll also do another, you know, another marketing just to make sure it's at top of people's minds and they can buy it and purchase it and get value from it. And then if we could maybe we'll probably link the.
ciela_hartanov (45:04.981)
Thank you.
ciela_hartanov (45:10.2)
Love that, thank you.
angela_r_howard (45:18.75)
your recent article, I think that you mentioned you posted some research that we can include. And where can people find you?
ciela_hartanov (45:20.553)
Yes, please do.
ciela_hartanov (45:27.093)
So the best place to find me is on LinkedIn, Siela Hartanoff, I post everything on there. And if you wanna sign up for my newsletter, I send it out quarterly, it's at humcollective.co. And of course, reach out if you're looking for keynotes, workshops, or any sort of innovation strategy, that's what I love doing is helping other organizations envision their own view of the future of work.
Thank you, Angela.
angela_r_howard (45:53.39)
Wonderful. Thank you so much again and hope to get on the podcast with you again soon.
ciela_hartanov (45:58.325)
Take care.
