Expansive Intimacy with Jim Young
angela_r_howard (00:05.198)
Hello, Jim. Welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to have you on. How's it going?
jim_young (00:11.19)
Good Angela, so good to see you again. I'm really excited to be here. Thanks for having me on.
angela_r_howard (00:17.071)
Yes, thank you for being here and I'm really excited for this conversation. But before we jump in, I want to have you do a quick introduction. Tell us about some of the work you're doing and about the impact you're looking to make on the world of work and the world.
jim_young (00:36.534)
Yeah, I'd love to. I work as an executive coach, as a facilitator, and as a writer. And the work that I'm doing that I'm focused on currently in this season is I do a lot of work with men who are in leadership around burnout and how they can take a completely different tack towards that opens them up to much more connection in their lives for them and for other people and also looking to do that at the organizational level.
angela_r_howard (01:06.278)
Wonderful. Yeah, it's, I was really drawn to your work because, you know, when we think about equity, diversity, inclusion within workplaces and generally, I think oftentimes we're thinking about those who are underrepresented. And, you know, I think there's a large population of men, you know, white men in particular who have dominated the world of work. And so
I'm curious to know why you chose to focus on men in corporate leadership and why is addressing burnout a part of this DE&I conversation and organizational culture conversation.
jim_young (01:50.55)
To your point, Angela, there's so many people that are suffering under the system that was created largely by people who were born into the same shell that I was, white men. And it almost feels hard to say, but men are suffering in that too, right? That whole system is broken. And the men who are at the top of that are clutching onto what feels safe for them, but it doesn't feel good. I mean, I'm having these conversations with men all the time. And-
In order for us to get to better equity, people who have most of the power need to take a step back. And if that comes through without their cooperation, I think it gets messier than it needs to be. It can be more disruptive than it has to be. So I'm really trying to change minds through hearts with men to say, hey, I see you. I know that you're struggling too. And let's take a look at how we can do this differently.
angela_r_howard (02:47.09)
Yeah, and I want to talk about allyship at some point, because I think that's an important concept to unpack a little bit. I think we throw the word around a lot. So I'll ask the question later about allyship. But one of the things that I think about a lot is in order to help folks in the workplace. We both work kind of within the system of work, and we know that
there are barriers to people who are underrepresented or underserved at work. And so in order to help that population, I think we also have to enable the right conversations with men at work, right? So when we talk about, I know parental leave is a big conversation right now, and I've talked to a lot of executives who have struggled with that, but they're not looking at it in the right way. In that I view parental leave, for example, as
if you're helping men help women, then you're ultimately helping women, right? So I've heard some executives say, well, you know, giving more time off to men isn't creating more, you know, DE&I, right? We should be giving something to the women, but there is this other avenue in that we have to change the expectations, the social expectations on men.
I think in order to also help women and people who are underserved or underrepresented in society.
angela_r_howard (05:05.602)
right?
angela_r_howard (05:20.786)
Yeah, and I think you bring up a great point between the difference between equality and equity, which is equality is a blanket policy around parental leave perhaps, but equity is more about understanding what individuals and families and communities need in order to get to the same outcome. And we know that women, for example, are set behind oftentimes because of the policies at work.
or the bias of people, of men in the workplace who perhaps have a wife who can stay at home with their kids or have that privilege and don't quite understand the idea of a dual working household, for example. Talk a little bit about that. How does that come into play around like social comparison and social expectations? Because you talk a lot about social comparison shame in your book.
And so I would really like to understand what the consequences are to that and what that is actually.
angela_r_howard (07:00.31)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (08:17.946)
Yeah, and you use the word conditioned, which I think is a good way to describe it in that I think a lot of this is unconscious and there is a sense of bringing awareness to, you know, our contribution to conditioning people around us to the social learning element of bias, of functioning and maybe traditional systems that don't work for all of us. So,
I love your perspective on that. And where do you think these things came from? I mean, is this kind of societal norms seeping into work norms? Does work inform society? How does that cycle work?
angela_r_howard (09:08.895)
Yeah.
angela_r_howard (10:00.788)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (10:04.478)
Yeah, I agree. I recently, I was having this conversation because we had, this is a part of our recent newsletter about the fact that like everyone sees like this work-life balance is 50-50, but really it's about, I mean, work-life integration even has some problematic connotations, right? Where you're not creating boundaries, but it's more about seasons in life and continuously evaluating if...
you feel like your energy is going in the right places. So I don't know what we call it, but work-life balance doesn't seem to be the right word.
angela_r_howard (10:48.682)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (10:54.134)
Mmm.
angela_r_howard (11:05.922)
Right.
angela_r_howard (11:14.434)
Hmm. Yeah, that brings up a good point and maybe a kind of a lead into another question, which is about leadership and the construct of leadership and how we've defined it and how we've defined it using masculine constructs. You know, if you look at the research, if you look at people who have written books on leadership, it is very off balance, speaking of balance, by the way. So what are your thoughts on what needs to change and why?
angela_r_howard (13:15.434)
I know you talk a lot about intimacy in your book. I know vulnerability is another word that's used, maybe not interchangeably, but it's this idea of expressing yourself or, the behaviors that I think of are like admitting when you're wrong, being humble enough to say that you don't know, connecting, being present. And so, whatever we call those things, right? Vulnerability.
vulnerable, intimate, those are, I think, characteristics and constructs that are becoming expected out of leadership and maybe in the past have been considered feminine constructs. And so I would hope that we're really looking at leadership less gendered in a way that it's like, leadership is a responsibility. And how we've defined in the past does not mean how
we should be thinking about the future and future-proofing our communities and our workplaces.
angela_r_howard (14:27.478)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (14:38.806)
Yes, I love that.
angela_r_howard (14:46.975)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (14:57.546)
Yeah, and I think about the word psychological safety too. You talk about play, you know, these behaviors that are symptoms of psychologically safe spaces. Being courageous enough to be vulnerable, right? Being intimate. These are behaviors that happen when you're safe. So, you know, I can kind of put together that if you are in a position where you have this social comparison, that you...
don't feel like you could really be authentically yourself because somebody is going to call you out on it. The bros are gonna call you out on it, right? Are you psychologically safe? Probably not.
angela_r_howard (16:17.226)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (16:39.466)
Yeah. So I'm going to kind of pivot the conversation a little bit because I'm sure some people are wondering, right, how long do you, when you're working with these men, with these executives, and you realize there's some healing to be done, we know there's healing to be done, and people aren't willing to change, at the end of the day, maybe they've committed, they're really not willing to change their behavior, and they're leaving casualties.
behind as they go, right? How do you, as a coach, as an expert in the space, how do you, where do you draw the line from, let's heal, let's really unpack this, but I have to hold you accountable because you're causing harm to other people.
angela_r_howard (19:06.15)
And what about the flip side? So allyship, you know, I'm sure you have a lot of men that you're working with who have some awareness of, you know, nobody's perfect and have made some change, have committed to some things, but you and I know that allyship is really more of an aspiration and it isn't until the person tells you you're an ally, right, like you don't just say, I'm an ally.
and you become an ally, there's behaviors and kind of proof in the pudding that you have to be contributing to an underrepresented or underserved group, and that person needs to consider you an ally. So how can one be an ally? What are some good things, some steps to getting there to this aspirational title?
angela_r_howard (21:31.53)
And I also would add to also not assume what the person needs, because I think there is kind of a savior complex. I've got to jump in and speak up for the person, but actually you're not amplifying their voice. You're just amplifying your own. So I think the other goes back to listening, which is asking the question, what do you need? How can I help? And taking the lead of the person to shape your allyship.
So I think it's a.
angela_r_howard (22:18.05)
Hmm. Very true.
angela_r_howard (22:36.834)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (22:48.038)
Yes, 100%. That's a fabulous point, I think, is doing your homework and putting the effort forward to take advantage of all the resources that are already there. So great tips. We talked about a lot today. I mean, we talked about the conversation of men in the workplace in particular and how I think...
oftentimes all the time it contributes to the rest of the people within the workplace. We talk about culture, we talked about leadership, allyship, all the good stuff, yes. And I know you have a book coming out which I am very excited. I'm just like on my heels waiting for it to drop. So tell us more about your book and then tell everybody where they can find you if they want your help or your support.
angela_r_howard (24:49.024)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (25:07.798)
Wonderful. Well, we appreciate you being here and thank you for the impact you're making. You know, you are certainly focused on one population, but I think you are getting at systemic and systematic issues that impact everybody. So I hope you all reach out to Jim and Jim, thank you for your time and your insights today.
angela_r_howard (25:36.002)
Thank you.
