Catalyzing Real World Change with Eric Ressler

angela_r_howard (00:01.503)

Hello, Eric. Welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you.

eric_ressler (00:05.132)

Thanks for having me on.

angela_r_howard (00:07.103)

Yeah, yeah, it's, I'm really excited for this conversation because we are living, I think, in a world right now where everyone is talking about purpose-driven leadership, purpose-driven organizations, and you have some interesting perspective and expertise in the world of branding communications, how that comes across. But also like...

What's the action behind that? So I'm really excited about this conversation. First, tell us who you are and the impact you're looking to make on the world.

eric_ressler (00:43.51)

Sure. So I'm Eric Ressler and I'm the founder and creative director of Cosmic. And we're a social impact creative agency. So we work with nonprofits, social enterprises, funders, sometimes public organizations, generally just organizations that exist at their core to move humanity forward in one way or another. And we help them with branding, communications, design, technology. Really that's our bucket of focus. I think the impact that we really want to have on the world and our mission, so to speak,

is to explore how design and design thinking can really elevate the social impact sector and philanthropy and help to multiply the impact of all these organizations out there already doing so much good.

angela_r_howard (01:26.455)

I love that. And I really want to get to the how around this because of your expertise and how you've really worked to operationalize this with organizations because, and we were talking about this earlier, I think there is obviously a massive movement around purpose-driven organizations, sustainability, social responsibility. We've heard all the buzzwords. Tell me a little bit more about what you're seeing just in the market about

this shift in this movement and what's happening right now.

eric_ressler (01:58.492)

There's so much happening right now, and I think largely because the pandemic really forced a lot of people and businesses and organizations to rethink how they show up in the world, where they place their focus, what the purpose and the meaning behind their choices really are. And so I think there's a big reshuffling or reckoning happening at some level, and there were already trends towards that.

and I think trends towards digital first, and of course, all of the lockdowns, the pandemic really accelerated all of that. I think the big trends that we're seeing in the corporate sector would be this grasping for purpose-driven leadership, purpose-driven work, purpose-driven business, which I think is largely, has a lot of positive potential, but hasn't really shown a lot of positive impact to date.

And I think on the very like bottom end or negative end on that spectrum has led to a lot of cause marketing and cause washing that actually is hurting the overall movement and the smaller group of organizations who are doing meaningful work that is purpose driven. I also think the term purpose driven and the term purpose has been used so many different times in so many different ways that it's essentially meaningless at this point.

And we need to find a way to fix that because words matter, how we interpret words matter. And so there's a lot of shifts going on there. I think the way that I think about this is that if we really value social impact, social responsibility as a core driver for how we make decisions as leaders, as business owners,

angela_r_howard (03:21.414)

Mm.

eric_ressler (03:47.142)

and really place those decisions at the same level as decisions around profit and profitability and serving shareholders, that's where real meaningful change can happen. Unfortunately, that's not usually how it's set up. I think society has been built around profit and shareholder distribution and really capitalism

there's kind of a need to rethink the overall system and how it can work in a way that doesn't exploit people, exploit the planet, or create social and economic divides as capitalism kind of runs rampant. And so how that all shakes out, I think we're all trying to figure out. I think there's a lot of good thinkers out there doing good work. And then alongside that, there's a ton of not-for-profit organizations who have been doing this for a long time.

And I think there's a lot of opportunity for kind of cross learning between those two sectors that could really lead to some interesting work.

angela_r_howard (04:49.227)

Oh, I love that. I love the idea of kind of cross-pollination between the two worlds that I think are not that they're merging, but the types of learning I think that we could pick up from both sides. Because I've also worked with some nonprofits and could also learn from kind of the corporate side of things as well around efficiency and how things work. But then cross-pollinating the other side would be a really valuable.

actionable drive towards creating organizations that just have this as the baseline. And I think that's what you're really talking about is shifting the paradigm of what work and business is supposed to accomplish. I think right now, as we know, business needs to run to make money, right? And I think we oftentimes like hang our hat on that to say, well, if we don't make money, we can't take care of people and we can't do this. And it's like a domino effect.

but what if we flipped the paradigm and what would that look like? And you're right, I think a lot of this, what I'm also seeing is a lot of performative work where organizations leaders are kind of looking at their competitors and saying, oh, they're talking about DE&I or they're talking about these other topics. We need to be doing that. And then they call you and try to hire you and your firm to help move that needle. So how do you...

I guess how do you vet your clients and the people you work with to make sure that you're making the impact that you want to?

eric_ressler (06:24.498)

Yeah, it's a really good question. And I'll be honest and say that it used to be a little bit more intuitive. And then over the years, we've actually operationalized it and created essentially a system and a rubric that we use when clients are coming to us because we want to make sure that we are supporting organizations who are doing meaningful work and having a positive social impact and of course, not doing anything that doesn't align with our values or morals as people and as a company.

angela_r_howard (06:31.709)

Mm.

eric_ressler (06:53.598)

And that actually is a lot harder than you would think. Um, and that's one of the big learnings that we've had over the last six years or so that we've been committed to this particular industry and sector. And I think that we're not here to be gatekeepers or to, you know, judge different levels of organizations or what they're doing. I mean, I think there's certainly organizations that are just really a flat out no for us because we can't get behind the work that they're doing.

angela_r_howard (06:54.06)

Yes.

eric_ressler (07:22.314)

We don't agree with their practices as a business. And I would say this actually goes for both nonprofits and corporate organizations, obviously a little bit more scrutiny when we're working with businesses that are profit driven or have a market-based approach. I think what we're really looking at the very core level is their business practices and actions. Are they exploiting people to make their product? Are they exploiting the planet to make their product?

angela_r_howard (07:30.961)

Mm-hmm.

eric_ressler (07:51.25)

Are they perpetuating any inequities or social or economic divides in doing their work? So that's kind of like the way the first place that we start. And if the answer is yes to any of those, then it's a hard no for us. And then from there all the way to the most pure charity, if we look at that as a spectrum, there is a huge spectrum. And the thing that is difficult, I think, where it becomes a little bit muddy or gray, is that a lot of times there are organizations that

are doing good work within a broken system. And if you're doing good work within a broken system, you could argue that you're kind of perpetuating that broken system by supporting it in one way or another, if you're not really an advocate or a rebellious organization trying to change things at the systems level, trying to break down inequities at the systemic level. But that's not always the only way.

angela_r_howard (08:23.982)

Mm.

eric_ressler (08:46.706)

And I think we need both. There are times where incremental progress within a broken system is really important. If we take the kind of classic example of homelessness or houselessness as a case study, yeah, we need to change big systems to fix that issue. At the same time, there are people right now who need housing and food. We can't just ignore them while we fix the entire system. So it does get complicated and becomes an ethical dilemma pretty quickly.

angela_r_howard (09:07.248)

Yes.

eric_ressler (09:14.742)

So as much as we've tried to make it more scientific, at the end of the day, there is a gut check that we need to do. And for me and my team, just speaking personally, it's really about, can we as people get behind the work of the organizations that we're supporting? Because we know that when we can get behind the work, we care a lot more about our work and how we can help them. And the overall relationship just goes much better.

angela_r_howard (09:39.639)

Yeah, and I kind of feel the same way because, you know, I'm working with organizations on culture change. So, you know, helping them operationalize those processes, those practices that you talked about. And a lot of it is in a lot of it was intuitive for me too. But once you get in there and you realize the actual commitment level or the practices and processes that aren't matching words to actions, that's where you

you really have to make a call as to if you're wasting your time and your energy, and if you can make the impact that you're looking to make for your firm. And I would love to talk a little bit about kind of a case study that's recently come up in the news. And so Patagonia, right? The CEO basically gave up all of his shares to, you know, the way it was marketed, right? Talk about brand and things like that. But...

basically saying, you know, our only shareholder is planet Earth, and we are really focused on, you know, people and planets, and everything else will come after. So we could argue that might have been kind of well thought out, right? Intentional to say, let's make sure if we're really walking the walk here, and that was a huge decision. You're also seeing, you know, I've read some of the comments with some of the announcements that have come up on Instagram or Twitter or...

LinkedIn where people will say, oh, this is just a marketing stunt. So what is your, I would just love to hear the whole story from you and your vantage point and kind of how your firm comes in on that branding perspective.

eric_ressler (11:21.57)

So my honest assessment is that Patagonia is one of the top leaders in the social enterprise space. And the reason I say that is because...

Their messages and their marketing is backed by actual meaningful progress and commitments and actions. This example of essentially creating a nonprofit with all of the earnings from Patagonia is a great example of that. If that's just a marketing message, it's the best one ever made because it is so, and it is a really good the way they pitched that and messages is brilliant, honestly. But it's only brilliant because it's authentic.

it wouldn't have worked if they didn't actually set up their business infrastructure to become a non-profit and to make meaningful commitments and if they hadn't had a track record of meaningful social and environmental impact. So I think that's it's really a great case study in how to do purpose-driven business if you want to use that term right. And it should I think Patagonia should be held as a leader and a standard on how that can work.

angela_r_howard (12:02.179)

Mm.

eric_ressler (12:31.166)

Um, you know, certainly there are opportunities to criticize Patagonia in some of their business practices, although I'd still think they're really leaders in sustainability and, um, you know, quality and sourcing and, and on top of that, they have an entire arm to their business that's grown over the years around activism that they're doing to protect spaces and to help people who've been exploited. Um,

But they're always making meaningful progress on all the things that they're doing and I'd say that overall they're really transparent around where they're falling short One example of this recently is there's been a lot of scrutiny around forever chemicals and some of these chemicals that are used in garments to make them waterproof and water resistant and Patagonia has used those right so we know now that's bad Maybe they've known that they're bad for the environment longer than the public has but they're meet they're making meaningful progress against

using those chemicals. And the nature of essentially being a fashion brand is that you're constantly producing new garments, new clothes, new lines. That's the nature of how a clothing brand works. And there's a lot of criticism around fast fashion and the fashion industry. They've been mitigating that through programs like WarnWare, where you can actually buy used goods, return your goods, get them repaired.

We're lucky enough to have a Patagonia outlet near me. So I'm able to get Patagonia pretty, pretty low prices. Cause they are, you know, one of the things when you do things responsibly is the cost of producing goods goes up and this is where it starts to get complicated. Um, but I've personally returned a number of Patagonia items that have had a broken zipper or missing button and for free forever, I can do that for anything that I've bought. And so.

angela_r_howard (13:59.431)

I'm going to go to bed.

eric_ressler (14:18.678)

they are actively working towards, you know, their other famous campaign is the do not buy this sweater campaign where they were introducing their warm wear program. So I would say that certainly there are opportunities to criticize Patagonia still, but I think that there are far less opportunities to criticize them compared to pretty much literally any other clothing brand in the entire world.

angela_r_howard (14:40.291)

Hmm. Yeah, and I think it gets back to this idea of, you know, I think there's a realization. And what I'm hearing from you is that organizations who are really operationalizing sustainability or ESG or any of the other buzz terms that are out there are closing the gap between intention and impact and actively doing that. But there's also a realization that there is a gap. So it's kind of this ongoing.

iterate and check in and being transparent about that. So how does that tie into communications? And because I know your firm is focused on branding and communications. And I know one of the things, at least with an organization that's really important, and I'm sure it's similar to like communicating to the world is transparency is a narrative and a story that jives, right, where you're not saying one thing and then doing another thing. So what are some tactics that organizations can partner with you and your firm on?

to actually bring this to life.

eric_ressler (15:43.151)

I think this might be a good time to introduce a concept that we really build a lot of our practices on, which is the concept of the attention economy. And I think for listeners who aren't familiar with this, this is not something that we invented, but the brief version of it is that as information has become...

essentially free and more easily accessible to most people in the world, still not everyone, through digital revolution, through smartphones and the internet. Information is no longer scarce for most people. In fact, it's kind of created the opposite problem where there's too much information and not all of it is valid, a lot of it is fake, or there's misinformation, so there's all kinds of spillover from that transformation that's happened. But what's now become

more scarce than ever is attention and the ability to capture and sustain people's attention in the world. And so as a social impact leader or organization or business that needs to capture people's attention for various reasons, there's a whole new challenge around how you can do that and how you can do that, especially through digital channels, which is mostly how we're communicating these days. Um, and although of course things are still happening in the real world through events and through in-person experiences.

a lot is happening digitally in tandem with, or sometimes exclusively through these digital channels. And so as a brand showing up with a strong digital presence built on a strong brand and a strong brand strategy and a clear impact story and strong digital experiences is really critical to doing your work. And I'm willing to say pretty much no matter who you are. I think this becomes especially true for the closer you get.

to needing to engage the general public. So if you're a consumer, you know, a B2C brand, so to speak, or you need to reach grassroots supporters, if you're a movement or an activist brand, this becomes absolutely mission critical. No question about that. But I would argue that it's also critical even as you go higher up the chain, so to speak. So if you're doing, you know, grass tops work, or you're doing...

eric_ressler (17:51.902)

more systems work or you're doing things more through policy and you need to reach a you know, a smaller subset of influencers or policymakers or politicians this work is still really important even because building a strong brand and having a lot of awareness around your cause only helps Strengthen your case when you're coming to those folks trying to ask them or pressure them to make different choices that are in line with your mission

And so this concept of the attention economy is really fundamental to how we think about and approach our work. And it strengthens the argument from my perspective around needing to have a really strong brand from a, from a visual standpoint, from a messaging and storytelling standpoint, but then even, uh, and most importantly, in terms of your reputation as a brand and the actions that you take in the real world. And I think that kind of harkens back to the initial framing of the question around.

how can you make choices and communicate those choices in line with social impact and sustainability in an authentic way? How can you be transparent and at the same time not hurt your reputation? I think there's a very common instinct to kind of like tuck things under the, you know, cupboard, so to speak, that don't look good for you. And I think this is true for business and for social impact.

organizations and nonprofits, if there's failures on a project or an initiative, you know, your instinct is not to, you know, get that message out necessarily. But I actually think there's more of that needs to happen so that as a sector, we can learn from each other's failures and not sweep them under the rug. Um, so how we actually approach that with clients, um, is different for each client, but it starts with really a process of design thinking and research and kind of deeply understanding who they are.

angela_r_howard (19:14.393)

Mm.

eric_ressler (19:43.394)

their sector or their niche within the larger social impact ecosystem, who they're trying to reach, and then essentially reverse designing a strong communications platform and brand based on all of those factors.

angela_r_howard (19:56.343)

Yeah, I love it. And again, I'm just making parallels to some of the work I do within culture, which is the transparency piece. I'll just mention again how important that is because especially in an attention economy where people can get information. So you wanna get ahead of that information and it's in your best interest to be transparent, but also to acknowledge that there still are challenges. And...

I don't think people want the fuzzy language anymore. They want the authenticity. And sometimes authenticity comes with, with I don't know's or this is a little bit of a mess, but we're gonna work through it. So yeah, what you're saying is really resonating. And I would love to just ask you about the organizations that deep inside, they don't care to be purpose driven. Right? There are organizations out there.

eric_ressler (20:31.118)

Yep.

angela_r_howard (20:51.031)

that maybe have are a little stressed out right now because they're seeing all of this, you know, swirl about why it's the responsibility of an organization to create social impact and maybe they have more of a traditional paradigm of, you know, I'm here to do business, I'm here to make money and serve my shareholders. What do you say to those organizations? Like, what is the path forward for them?

eric_ressler (21:20.413)

So, I actually don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that at all, with a very big asterisk after that, as long as you are not exploiting people or exploiting the planet to do your business. And if you can do both of those things...

angela_r_howard (21:30.959)

Mm.

eric_ressler (21:35.058)

we still need things in culture. Like we need sweatshirts, we need shoes, we need cars. Maybe that one's a little bit more dependent on our infrastructure and our transportation system, right? But we're going to need to turn raw resources into goods to live our lives. And that's talking mostly about product-based businesses, but we need services too. We need consultants, we need organizations that help other organizations. So.

I don't necessarily think that everyone needs to have a social impact framing to their work. As long as they are not exploiting people and exploiting the planet to make that work happen. That's my perspective on it. So I think especially if as an organization you are doing either of those things, exploiting people or exploiting the planet, fix that first before you think about any kind of social purpose messaging.

angela_r_howard (22:28.692)

Mm.

eric_ressler (22:31.378)

any kind of social purpose, culture, messaging, any of that, like get your own house in order, right? Before you start talking about inviting people in. And so I think that is where you see valid criticism and backlash is when you see ExxonMobil doing climate action campaigns. You're not fooling anyone. You have a track record of wrecking the environment, spending billions of dollars on advertising to hide that. And now we're supposed to believe you

angela_r_howard (22:38.545)

Yes.

angela_r_howard (22:52.275)

Mm.

eric_ressler (23:01.31)

approach to clean energy while you're also still wrecking the environment. Like, of course, no one's going to believe you, right? I it's kind of audacious. It's, it's incredible what people think they're going to get away with. And to, to a fact, to a degree, it actually does work. So that's why they do it. Um, because although a lot of people can see through that, if you, you know, the, the psychology of advertising is if you keep pounding a message away, eventually it will start to kind of sink in. Um, so, but if you are a business leader,

And you're struggling right now because business is not easy always. I think that I would start by really looking at your own footprint and impact, so to speak, with how you do business and get that in order and look for ways to make that more sustainable, to make that more just and equitable in terms of who you work with, who you hire, opportunities, et cetera.

And once you get that kind of core foundational level in place and, and don't worry about marketing that yet. Like get it working first, get to a point where you feel good about where you are. And then you have an authentic story to tell, but before you have an authentic story to tell, if you have all of these concessions or contradictory practices that you're trying to sweep under the rug, you're never going to do cause marketing, right? And you shouldn't because then it's really just, yeah, cause washing.

angela_r_howard (24:24.007)

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Because people are watching, and the people within your organization are watching, and the people who start your organization are watching. So I totally agree with you. Again, it's this matching your words with your action. And what do you, and I'll kind of end with this question, because I have a personal philosophy around this, which kind of gets into the work I do around culture, which is

I do think the gap is narrowing for us to, for organizations that don't have their house in order, or aren't matching their words, their actions. I think this upcoming generation, the five generations that are in the workplace right now are asking for change. But this upcoming generation, Gen Z in particular, they're holding employers accountable. I mean, it's a different conversation than I had when I was interviewing in organizations.

So, you know, Gen Zers are asking, you know, what are you doing? Not what your philosophy is, not what your mission is, not what your values are. What are you doing? How are you matching your words to your actions? So, what do you think are the consequences of not getting that right for the workplace in particular?

eric_ressler (25:40.391)

I think your days are numbered. This isn't changing. So I think, and again, I don't think this contradicts my opinion around not everyone needing to have a purpose driven message or marketing approach, because I think there are plenty of good companies out there that are doing good, meaningful, necessary work, who treat their employees well, who don't exploit the environment or people in order to produce their goods and services. And

that message gets out in and of itself. You don't even need to market that message because your actions are so commendable that your employees and your customers do the marketing for you. So I think my perspective on it is that it's about time we start to hold people accountable and I'm really inspired by the next generation doing that.

And I think there's a lot of reasons why they are because of how they've grown up in the world that they've experienced. And, um, the fact that if we don't make some changes that we're literally going to go extinct as a species, like that should be pressuring people to change. We need to change. It's time to change as a, as a business leader, you should be thinking about this very seriously and looking at how you can become sustainable in all senses of the word. It's not just about.

sustainability from an environmental standpoint, but if you're going to move with the flow of culture, then you need to find a way to exist in a sustainable way with people and with our planet.

angela_r_howard (27:13.607)

Love that. Well, Eric, that was like the perfect bow at the top of a great conversation today. So I just wanna thank you for your time, your insight, but also sharing this additional lens around social impact and sustainability. So just thank you for your wisdom and your knowledge today.

eric_ressler (27:34.708)

Yeah, thanks so much for having me on.