Building a Culture-First Work Environment with Craig Forman
Angela Howard (she/her):
Craig, welcome to the podcast. Thanks
Craig Forman:
Angela,
Angela Howard (she/her):
for
Craig Forman:
good
Angela Howard (she/her):
joining.
Craig Forman:
to be here. Thank you,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Craig Forman:
thank you. It's good to be here. Yeah, excited to be doing this.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes, I feel, first of all, I feel like our world's colliding has been a long time coming because the work that we do is so synergistic. But the
Craig Forman:
Yeah.
Angela Howard (she/her):
the fact that we're here today and you're in my orbit and you're on this podcast just, I think is magical. So thank you for joining. Craig, tell us who you are, what you do, and the impact you're looking to make on the world.
Craig Forman:
Yeah, well first like I said, thank you for having me. I feel the same way. I enjoyed getting to know you and it's good to be here. My name is Craig Foreman. Some people call me Culture Craig or you can I guess nowadays find me at CultureCraig.com so it has become pretty, pretty formalized. I would say, who am I, you know, my background is in organizational psychology. I have a master's degree in organizational psychology. I've always been driven by people and human potential. I think my own experiences in the workplaces of some were great and some were challenging and came to this realization somewhere in my life that when organizations take care of people, organizations thrive. So, you know, I've always like really thought a lot about that. How can we build organizations that serve those two sides, that are healthy, successful organizations where people thrive? I've been in the Bay area, I'm a military vet, so I first came out to California when I was in the Air Force, but I fell in love. Went back to Florida, finished my undergraduate degree in business, and came back out to California. Eventually got my master's, like I said, in organizational psychology, and this was when tech was starting to pick back up out here. And came up through, you know, at first just tech, and then I was in education and moved to HR tech. came up through HR tech and then about six years ago I landed an organization called Culture Amp and I was a lead people scientist with Culture Amp for six years helping organizations use tools to really assess organizational culture healthily in a human-focused way and then take that and distill it into really great data to help organizations, you know, have a more data-informed approach. Along the way in that journey, I also had the opportunity to build out and experience designing our culture's first global series of events over four years, as well as help kind of architect our culture's first community, which when I left had a hundred chapters globally. So it was just an amazing experience to not only do this work but also. Being out in the world representing it getting to know more people and being excited by it and I mean, which leads to about six weeks ago, I officially stepped out onto my own starting culture C consulting and my main focus is to help organizations bring, um, you know, merge data. you know, and bring healthy data into their approach and have a data-informed decision-making process with their leadership level on, on the, you know, why are you investing, where are you investing, you know, and are using data to do that to drive healthy, human-focused organizations. To answer your question about why I do what I do, I think the easy answer is a big part of my journey was about 10 years ago, getting clear on my purpose, which is to help the world work better by improving the places we work and every decision I've made since professionally. And, you know, I, when I post content when I do work, I'm always thinking, how is that in service of my bigger purpose, and how can I continue to go bigger? So that is my purpose. That is behind what I do is that desire, because I believe that we can transform and have an impact on human lives via the workplace. And I want to be part of that. So that's who I am and why I do what I do.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Well, you know, it's great to have a partner in humanity with some of this work. I feel like this is work about humanity. And I think sometimes we don't make that connection. I think you're certainly making that connection. But this is really about just improving workplaces, organizational performance, and enriching lives within the workplace, but also that transfers and has a ripple effect. So
Craig Forman:
Yeah.
Angela Howard (she/her):
thank you for the work you're doing. And
Craig Forman:
Likewise.
Angela Howard (she/her):
I'm excited for your launch. Being at Culture Amp, I'm sure you've worked with a lot of organizations and seen benchmarking around what good looks like. What are some of the factors that you think move an organization from intention? Like, yeah, that culture thing is a good thing to have or healthy culture is good to impact doing it, moving the needle, driving people-centered workplaces.
Craig Forman:
Yeah, well, I think first, you know, you kind of hit on this a little bit in what you just said, and then even in the question. And so I think about it too is like what gets in the way, right? Because I don't think it's all, you know, I think sometimes things in organizations get painted as just performative like they're saying one thing and doing another. But I've met so many HR leaders and organizational leaders. And I do sense, at least in my work, deep passion, and it keeps and it does and it's obvious it's falling short. So I have to reckon with what's happening. I think a lot of my work with a sense of empathy and saying why do we, you know, what gets in the way? I think a big part is The desire is easy. I think the hum, the connective, the human part of all of us that want to help others when developing others and growing others is, is honest oftentimes. But I think when we dig into doing it, it means there's a level of vulnerability. There's a level of. Oh no, what if I don't, what if I ask them how they're doing it? I don't know how to respond to that, you know? And so where I go with that is, I think our leaders need to do, continue to do their work and development to understand what gets in the way. It's easy, it's easy to go in with objectives and goals and numbers and drive that. But we know where that goes. Like that drives to burnout and it, you know, people aren't happy. I think that the deeper connection we want in the workplace and creating all these things we speak about are more human workplaces, more empathetic, being able to be adaptable. really requires our leaders and our managers to, to them, that emotional intelligence that you hear more and more about and you know, how can you be aware what's going on for you and then take that off the table so you can be there for the people and that idea of developing and growing people. So I think there's that, that kind of emotional piece that, that we needed to level up, you know, just hasn't been developed over the years. It was not as important 20 and 30 years ago. And now we have to transition. I think the other piece is also the real-world pressures of running an organization, that there is a reality that if an organization doesn't exist or it doesn't, is not successful, it ceases to exist. And so that, you know, and then when you have very hierarchical organizations, what you get is a lot of pressure from the top because that, that it's almost like a scarcity-driven anxiety and it becomes about the outcome, right? It's all about the outcome. Like, okay, whatever, that's all great stuff, but now to survive, like go, go. And we, what we do is we end up burning out. you know, and then just we're always kind of having to replace people. And so a lot of the work and even in the tools I work with, talk a lot about doing the work to understand the inputs that will drive the outcome. So getting our organizations to trust that if you can step out of that always reactive mode and always from scarcity, and if we don't, we're going to, you know, die and you know, that happens a lot, right? We do have quarterly earnings. We do have to report to our boards. I mean, that's, that's truth, but, but to sit with that and then go, let's do an assessment. If we do this assessment, we believe that if we focus on leadership communication and that we focus on, you know, people being authentic in the workplace, that we believe that's going to, those are kind of core fundamentals to success and what are those behaviors, focus on those and then measure the outcomes. So where I'm going with that is changing the mindset and organizations from inputs, you know, more to the inputs that will drive the outcomes versus the outcomes because... It's that's where you get in trouble. You see it in sales all the time, right? Like think of Wells Fargo or something where,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Craig Forman:
where everybody is so focused on numbers, and outcomes at all costs. And then their bad behavior shows up to get the outcomes versus saying, no, this is, it's going to be around conversations. It's going to be around having the right, you know, training to make sure that our representatives get those outcomes that we're looking for. So I hope that made sense, but I think those are the two big ones that came to mind both from an emotional perspective, but also from an organizational reality perspective of dealing with the challenges of having a successful organization.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, and I like the fact that you talk about the conversation around barriers because I think what I'm seeing, at least with the work that I'm doing, is there's a lot of appetites to like to add on to demonstrate like we're doing this culture thing well, right. And it's just kind of throwing spaghetti at the wall when you do not have a sustainable listening mechanism that feeds in and feeds out. The objective reality of where you are. and where you want to go from a cultural perspective. So I think what we end up having is things like, you know, implementing the wellness apps and, you know, the CEO saying, well, we did this, we're doing wellness, right? And at the same time, behaviorally, we're sending emails on the weekend, we're asking people to skip family events to work, you know, 10, 12 hours a day. So... To your point, culture is just matching words with actions. And I think we oftentimes think about it as like programs or initiatives or things we have to add on when we need to just assess what we're currently doing and sometimes dismantle things too and stop doing things to create the culture we're looking to build.
Craig Forman:
100%. Couldn't agree more. And, you know, like fundamentally two things. Why don't you talk about your rights? Like tools, even culture, you know, I worked with culture, I'll continue to work with culture amp. I plan on helping more organizations bring in tools. I think Culture Amp is, really the pinnacle. tool for organizations to do assessments and to get great data that can drive action. It's still just a tool. I've seen people misuse
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Craig Forman:
it. It's a wonderful tool. It's been built with humans in mind all along. But if it gets turned on and used and a manager walks in a room and says, so you're all saying this, who said that? You undermine everything about the tool. So it is just a piece of technology. It's powerful, but it's the people. And I think it's the same thing with those others that you talked about that tools, a piece of technology is not going to save us. And this goes back to my work of really... Let's bring good solid data. You know, maybe your people want more tools. Maybe they want fewer tools. Maybe they're, you know, maybe they're happy at 10 p.m. taking EAM.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Craig Forman:
I don't know. You know, and I'm a big proponent of building the culture that's going to, that's gonna create success for you and your organization. Be open and honest about the culture and why you've built it. attract the right people that are willing if you're Wall Street and you think you know, competition at all costs and you know, we're driven by money here, that might not be my value set, but I'd rather you put it on the wall and you go out to the world and says we're looking for is this right for you? If not cool versus, you know, I heard the term say catfishing. Oh, we believe
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah.
Craig Forman:
X, Y, Z and you show up and they do something completely different. And how do you get to that place? You know, again, I don't I don't claim to be the end all be all expert on Every company is different. I think what it is, is implementing an effective listening strategy. And that is a, it's not just a survey. It surveys the first part of the collection. And
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Craig Forman:
then how do we take that and distill it? A lot of information to distill it down to something to understand. Hopefully through your managers and your team at the team level. And then. then take that and say, now, what are the areas we're going to focus on and what are the actions that we can take? And then repeat and just continue. There's no finish line. You never, you know, with so many other things with leaders, it's like, you solve something, you solve something. This is an iterative process that will always go on. The environment will change. The people will change. Your organization will change. Um, and it's believing that that's the process that informs the decisions on what you do or don't focus on, you know? And so, you know, maybe a foosball table is exactly what your people want. I don't know, you know, but my gut tells me they probably really want more open and honest communication with their leaders than they do, especially now foosball table, but again, I've worked with a lot of companies, different things work for different companies. There are different cultures and then there are different objectives. So it's, that's what I'm driving for is helping organizations
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Craig Forman:
stop. thinking they know and bringing in a more iterative process that's in sync with their people.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, absolutely. And I think a lot of times, and again, we're doing similar work, so you probably have experienced this too, but it usually is the hard stuff that we need to change. I mean, the foosball is easy, right? The foosball table is really easy. It's a cost, but I mean, I wish that was the issue most of the time. So it usually is much more deeply seated. And, you know, sometimes we get the response, well, you know, Culture C, we wanted you to come in and tell us what our culture was like today and help us align on what it is tomorrow, but not like that. We wanted you to recommend training or something else that would be a little bit easier to implement. What do you think the barrier is between this deep-seated, sustainable work that we're trying to implement, and what the expectations of executives and leaders are around this work?
Craig Forman:
I think it's tricky because number one, you have to have a kind of, this is, I mean, I think a lot, I use the model right brain, left brain, I, you know, there's, you know, these models change and shift, but just using that as a framework of like kind of, you know, left brain would be, uh, analytical numbers, language, you know, direct connecting dots where right brain would be, you know, less of that. It's nonlinear, no language time doesn't, you know, the right brain, right? Um, and I think that in running organizations, there's a big emphasis on left-brain thinking, of course. I mean, especially, you know, and there's, there's a critical need for that. But I think what we've done is it's much harder to quantify, to validate a lot of the right brain stuff, right? What, is the value of relationships? What is the value of teams working together well? And how do you measure that? Um, so what we do is we kind of over-index. to the left brain stuff and it all becomes very analytical, very quantitative, which is important, but when we over-index it, there's a kind of a human soul that gets lost in that. I think people are struggling, but we all have the, you know, I get it. I understand exactly why and it makes complete sense. I'm not judging that. What I think is we need to kind of continue to work for that balance and how do we bring in you know, and I think the tools that I work with are helping bring a story and bring data to more of that kind of bringing some analytical to more of this right brain thing so we can step that up because it's hard to get your head around. There's not, you can't always define it with language. Sometimes you know it when you feel it, right? And that's the challenge. When push comes to shove, the knee-jerk reaction is to slip back into if I can't touch it, see it versus Can you sit, can you sit in the pocket for a minute? Do you believe that doing this training with your managers and leaning into it? is not going to change overnight, but in a year or two years it is the path forward towards success. And who's there helping guide that journey? I've worked with some amazing CEOs who get it. And I've also worked with some that struggle. And I understand I don't, I put myself in their shoes. That's a tricky
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Craig Forman:
role, especially when you've got people who have invested lots and lots of money in you and you got to go sit in front of the board and answer. So I have a ton of empathy, but I just think it's a very human, you know when anxiety spikes we go back to. you know, what we can touch, feel and see. And I think it's continuing to build value and use the left brain stuff to build value in the right brain stuff. Um, and, and tell, tell those stories with data and organizations. Um, you know, and then when we start to see results, you know, it's amazing what happens, but it begins, it begins with that. And then you also said in the beginning, you know, when I go in or, you know, they, they push back what, what I love. Look, I don't think, I think of myself more as a right-brain person, relationships and facilitation and reading the room. And I think my journey. at Coltramp was awesome because it took a person like me, a right-brain person deep into the left-brain world, and learned how to connect those dots in a really powerful way. So, when I sit in front of a room, it's kind of like a doctor coming back like I just ran a completely comprehensive blood panel
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Craig Forman:
and I'm sitting with you and I say, Angela, it looks like your liver is fatty. How's your diet? It's not me.
Angela Howard (she/her):
rates.
Craig Forman:
I'm not talking to you. I mean, all I'm doing is facilitating a conversation
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Craig Forman:
and using really solid data that you believe that you trust the
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm?
Craig Forman:
data. And now we're having a real conversation. So if you can say, Craig, I don't want to talk to you about my diet. That's not what you're here for. Like, okay, well, you're here for your health. You hired me. I mean, if you need to go talk to me about your knee, you should go do that. But that's, you know, you asked me to run this assessment. And here's what I'm coming back
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Craig Forman:
with. So I love it because it kind of takes me out of the equation, so to speak.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes,
Craig Forman:
It's not about
Angela Howard (she/her):
yes.
Craig Forman:
me. And that's pretty I mean, I think what's about me is the ability to disarm and hold the conversation. So I often think I'm more of a facilitator than anything else who has an understanding
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Craig Forman:
and background in organizations. But I've found almost covered in the data because now it's not about me saying I'm the end-all-be-all expert. I'm not. I'm an expert on how to run these programs and have great, really solid conversations. And look, they push back. It's happened. But I know they're going to go lay in bed that night and have to deal with the reality of the data they just saw. I mean,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Craig Forman:
so I can take a little... I can take that. I'm the messenger, but
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Craig Forman:
I don't attach myself. I'm only delivering the message that has come through the data.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that's, I think, where, yeah, data is powerful. And, you know, I tend to relate that whole journey of kind of like acknowledgment, you know, digesting it, like coming to terms with it. It's kind of a grieving process. And I don't know if you feel the same when you're working with your clients, but you have to create that space to guide them through reaction to, okay, now what are we going to do about this? How do I need to change as a leader? But truly it's a grieving process and you have to create that open spaciousness for them to process.
Craig Forman:
I love that you're saying that. You know, one of the last things I did at Culture Amp was we ran a series of events and we did one in London. We did one virtually so you can see what I'm about to talk about. We did a studio record, but we also did a private event with Esther Perel. And amazing, I mean, every time I'm around her, I've worked with her a couple of times at events, but also watching her talk, she's just a special human. And our CEO was in conversation with her and he asked a question. something around leadership and decision-making at the executive level and the challenges that come with that. And I knew her, she oftentimes will come in with like a left, you like, where did that, how she connected the dots. But what she went to on this case that spun me around and was brilliant, which she said, you know, we have to acknowledge when we make decisions, there's a, whatever decision we make, we've had to let, we're letting go even consciously or subconsciously of everything else we're not going to do. The decisions we're not making. you know, and so, so her point was like, that idea of grieving is something that we need, I think as a culture, we struggle with that in general, we want to
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Craig Forman:
push away from loss. But the truth is loss is something we deal with every moment, particularly leaders that are making big decisions about organizations, they're letting go of the desired outcome they might have wanted, they're letting go of, you know, maybe the decision was around employees and like, there's just a lot happening and every decision that gets made at that level comes with some sort of loss. And her point was, to your point, acknowledging the grieving. So I mean, I think this goes, now we're back in that whole right brain world of relationship and even at the executive level, like how do we allow space for grief, calling it that or not. And I think it's just that, it's space.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Craig Forman:
It's the same thing I said before about, why aren't we taking action. Because we're scared we're not gonna know what to do. And the irony is, for instance, I often advise people to run a check-in at the beginning of every meeting. And my challenge to anybody is to do... you pick a particular meeting and run a check-in for that meeting for the next eight meetings. It can be simple, and it can be quick, but if it's honest and people can show up and share what's what they're just checking quickly, it will change your entire meeting. Because when people can show up and be like, oh, wow, that's just good knowledge to know that you're tired and you've got a toddler that's keeping you up all night for the last two nights and you're in this meeting, that changes how I'm going to approach you, how the team may approach you, or hey, I'm super excited and this is whatever it might be. And, but, but I've also, you know, Brene Brown on a, on a podcast, she was, before she went on her hiatus last summer, was talking to her office manager and they were talking about check-ins and the question was, why don't we do it? And, and more, because, they do that a lot as well. And Brene was like, because I think they don't, they're scared of, they won't know what to say. And I think she nailed it, that we don't do these things. They're so simple, right? Well, it's just check-in, but the fear is somebody's going to share something and I'm not going to know what to say. And the irony, back to our point about dealing with grief is that you don't need to say anything. It's the
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Craig Forman:
space. The space helps us process the grief. Giving the space for, you know, I've done it. I lead executives sites, you know, and it's amazing to see behind the scenes like when an executive starts crying or like, these are humans dealing with real human stuff.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Craig Forman:
And when they can show up that way with their peers, they become a better team. It's the same thing, you know, dropping the facade. These are human experiences
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Craig Forman:
and people are grieving and dealing with stuff and there are hard decisions to be made. Am I in the right place? All those things.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Craig Forman:
So I think, I guess, as I'm talking, the answer I think with grief is, you know, it's not like I'm a grief expert, but I do know if we can create a nice space for people to show up and just be honest that I'm grieving about something. I'm challenged with something that in itself is pretty powerful to humans.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Craig Forman:
I think we shut it down because we're so scared of getting too close to it.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, or I've heard some leaders say, you know, it just slows everything down. You're right. And that's the other, I think, right brain, left brain tug of war that's going on where I think there is a fundamental basic need for all of us. Something that I can say confidently is that all humans want to be seen and heard.
Craig Forman:
Everyone, I love you said that. You know, part of my journey was I worked for two years at a company called Achievers that does recognition and rewards
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Craig Forman:
for organizations. And my big takeaway after two years, and that's held ever since in every other piece of work that I do is humans fundamentally wanna be seen and heard. That's every human. Now, how they want it, not everybody wants to be pulled up publicly, not everybody, but everybody wants, we're not safe as humans if we're not acknowledged by the group if we're not seen and heard, we're packed animals, right? That we
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Craig Forman:
want to know that we are connected in part. So I think you nailed it spot on that, you know, I had another thought, you said something earlier, but we'll get back to it.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, let me know if it comes to mind as we continue to chat.
Craig Forman:
Mm-hmm.
Angela Howard (she/her):
So I'm gonna ask you a question that, you know, you may have to think about for a little bit or not. Who owns culture?
Craig Forman:
I don't have to think about
Angela Howard (she/her):
Okay.
Craig Forman:
it. We are all in culture. And I think that one of the biggest fallacies is when we start pointing fingers and thinking someone else is going to come fix it. However, I do, I do want to say that we also have to acknowledge our level, particularly probably in any situation, but particularly when we build these hierarchical situations of the level of influence we have over culture, the new employee coming in. has way less influence impact on the organizational culture as your CEO does. But I would still say to that new employee, you are part, if you are sitting and complaining and upset about the culture and that's all, that's what you're doing, which is perfectly fine, that is your contribution to culture. So, you know, in a healthy environment that, you know, culture amp was people showed up, they're so excited. This company has great reviews. And I'd, and I would say to new employees. Awesome you're here, super excited. Like I want you, you know, my hope is you take all these things that you perceive are here. But if you just take and don't give back, then eventually we'll deplete this thing. And as we grow, we have to keep building a wonderful culture. Now you're part of that. So what's your contribution? What's your, I said, what's your seasoning in the soup, you know, um, to all that. I remember what I wanted to say before.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Craig Forman:
This is how my brain works sometimes. What I wanted to say before was when you said, oh, we don't have time for that. Let's get to the work, yadda, right?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Craig Forman:
I think that's a classic example of the right brain kicking in and shutting down the left brain. It's too hard to your head around. I don't understand what's going on here. Can we just get to this thing that I can get my head around and do the work? And, you know, that's in then. And I think about all the, how many people say the meetings suck at work? Because
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Craig Forman:
there's no, there's no relation. It's hard to get you. header out it. I used to joke, you know, I led a ton of meetings, both building our community and internally. And it was kind of a joke, but it went on for years and it was true that, you know, I have a whole framework that we built to train facilitators and how to lead culture-first meetings, which works great across lots, you know, of
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Craig Forman:
meetings. And we can talk about that in a minute. But I would, you know, I would joke sometimes that 80% of our meetings are spent on connection and, you know, welcoming people in and 20% on work and we got an amazing amount done and stuff kept happening and it kind of defied what you would think. But the truth is in most of our meetings, if, if we connect and get in the right space, the work can be done so fast.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Oh my gosh,
Craig Forman:
Um,
Angela Howard (she/her):
yes.
Craig Forman:
so, so I kind of, you know, I know, I'm not going to walk into an organization and tell everybody to stop, you know, have 80% of your meetings all about warm fuzzy and 20% about the work that people would, I would not be working. But when I do it, I found that you know, it's a fallacy that there's no value to connection. It's just, again, you can't quantify it. You can't put your finger on it. We need somebody in these rooms to just say, look, let me just represent and speak up so we can have a balance. We need both connection and work.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes, and I think more and more now that we are working in such a hybrid asynchronous environment, I think people who are spending meetings talking about tasks and project plans are just like, this could have been an email, this could have been in monday.com, this could have been on a Google Doc.
Craig Forman:
You could have recorded it and put it in Slack if you needed to do it that way, right? Like, do we need to like, you know, as I'm stepping into my world, this is funny you say that, and I'm sorry to cut you off, but it's been really interesting. Now, I don't wanna take it away. I get that if I was running an organization that had 40 or 50 people, there would be meetings. It's important, I get it, and we do need to meet. But I'm also struck. now that I am in control of my agenda of how much of my time was taken up with these things
Angela Howard (she/her):
guess.
Craig Forman:
that I'm like, I don't know how they connected and I don't want to push. Every company does it and I would do it too. I get it. So I'm still processing that. But just
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Craig Forman:
when I'm just doing my own thing and right now it's small, it's, you know, a lot of it's me and working with partners. I'm like, oh gosh, like. 15 meetings a week that are focused is moving the needle. And like think about all the meetings I'm not having to go to. And again, they were important, but I just go back to organizations like think about that, make sure the meetings people are going to are good and they're effective. I
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Craig Forman:
don't think, I think we often pack and say meetings suck. No, bad meetings suck.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Craig Forman:
People meet, that's what we do. Humans meet. Good meetings are amazing. And I've seen it over and over and over. And when people walk out feeling, wow, I came into this, I feel better leaving than I came in. That's awesome. And it happens. And I know it happens. And I'll go toe to toe with anybody that says that's not possible.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Oh, absolutely. I mean, there is a meaning are a modality for movement and building relationships.
Craig Forman:
I like that.
Angela Howard (she/her):
No, no doubt. But how you use them, I think is the key. You know, I think we, you know, I've discovered voice audio messages. It turned my world around because I'm like, I can just rather than having, you know, a meeting about an update, I can literally just say something into a device and it gets sent, and then people can react to it how they want to, right? They wanna digest it, they wanna respond via text or another audio message. It provides an equitable kind of communication toolbox I think is important because not everybody, some people needs time to think, right? Once you start building your team, you're going to find your communication method the way you prefer it might not be the same as somebody else's. So...
Craig Forman:
Mm-hmm.
Angela Howard (she/her):
I think there's just this big, again, being seen and heard, going right back to that fact that all that can be underpinned, I think, with some of our day-to-day operations as well and how we manage.
Craig Forman:
Absolutely. Can I share the framework? I feel like I teased it.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes,
Craig Forman:
I shouldn't
Angela Howard (she/her):
please.
Craig Forman:
as well as share it. Cause I think
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Craig Forman:
it's funny, we built it. The history here is that we were doing human folk, that people loved the events we were running. And then we decided we wanted to build a community and empower more people to do those themselves. So the one of the questions is, okay, great. Like how do you distill what we're doing? So it forced us, to analyze that and come up with a framework to train people on how to have great human-focused events, but what we landed with was something that I've used with leaders running. budget meeting or a whole day offsite. And it's just an amazing framework. It's pretty simple, but again, another challenge, follow this and see what your people say about your meetings. A great meeting has a welcome. So how do you welcome people into the space, right? So virtually for me, maybe playing some music, giving the first five minutes to just let people get there, say hi, just think about they're coming into your home. The second is a connection, that before we get to anything else, take a moment. And again, if it's a 30-minute meeting, you can simply be, take a quick breath, one word, what are you bringing in today? change your name and zoom your last name to your word. So the rest of the meeting that word's up, which I think is powerful. So now we've made a welcome connection. Now the work, what are we here to do? Every time we gather, we're here for a reason. That could be a workshop. It could be a budget review. It could be, that's the purpose of why are we coming together. There's a reason we're here, don't waste my time. The action, what are we gonna do next? So next steps, right? So great, we looked at the review. You know, Angela, you're gonna go ahead and update those numbers. We're gonna put together whatever. So you get the action next steps. And finally, and probably often overlooked in the most important, the close. That every great event has a beginning, a middle, and an end. And you know it, we all know it when we're in meetings and it just runs out of time and it's just unresolved. So, it's just an energetic thing. Taking a moment, wrapping it up. You know, if you have time let people share maybe a reflection, some gratitude, um, just overall themes, but just very different than the action and the work. It's like just. you know, whoever's leading it, just take a moment to close this meeting. It's over. It's done. Wrap it up. And, you know, that's, I think one of the biggest mistakes is that we run out of time or we're not sensitive to the that, that whole journey that, while we're together. And like I said, it could be 30 minutes. It could be a full-day event though, those things hold. And, um, it's pretty simple. And I, and I, I'm telling you, if you, if you could, after a meeting, look back and say, I hit every one of those, I bet you, you don't have to even say it that you're doing that. Your people, you're going to hear feedback on why, those were really good meetings. So that's a challenge. It's been field-tested, at least in my opinion. I've seen
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Craig Forman:
it done thousands of times and I think it's pretty powerful and something to share with the world.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, I am a big fan of the bookends. I call it the bookends
Craig Forman:
The book ends,
Angela Howard (she/her):
of,
Craig Forman:
yeah.
Angela Howard (she/her):
you know, and starting with, and it's something that I think is underestimated is that beginning of building the safe space. And I think it's even more important when you're, you know, on a Zoom call, for example, and you wanna create an environment where people can contribute and be seen and heard and contribute in a way that feels authentic to them. So, and in the spirit of, wrapping. I think that you know, I would love to hear as we wrap up this conversation because we have covered a lot. The journey of this call, of this call, this podcast
Craig Forman:
Hmm.
Angela Howard (she/her):
the recording has been, you know, we talked about, certainly, you know, what culture is, the right brain, left brain, I guess, acknowledgment that those things can be a tug of war when we talk about culture, what it means to how to talk with executives and leadership around creating that bridge between what people are feeling saying the reality of the culture and the organization and what we think it is. So give us something to wrap with. What do you think folks on listening to this, our audience needs to hear to kind of take the next step and implement this within their organization.
Craig Forman:
I think one thing that I often ask people, is they'll talk about the initiatives and what they're doing and their organizations. And I'll say, you know, well, we're investing in training or investing in, you know, leadership communication, we're investing in compensation. And I'll say why, you know, and,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Craig Forman:
and. And, you know, oftentimes you just start going down that path. You realize that there's not a lot of, I think, and historically hasn't been a lot of data or insights to help make those decisions. And you see, and now we see all these initiatives or a lot of money being spent on DE&I and not seeing the outcomes that we're, what we're wanting. And I think I think what I'm, what I realize and I help uncover is that we can do a better job of assessing and understanding, making more informed decisions. And, but, I don't think people are ignoring it. I think they don't, they don't. quite know that there's been a lot of evolution in this. So they're still operating the way it kind of had to be and used to be. And so I think one big thing is just helping the world kind of more and more people realize that with a relatively small investment, you can assess all of your future investments. And it's, you know, it's, I'm always blown away by. by how much they spend to have somebody else do a half, half the job that can be done versus I know there's a small investment can be made. They can up your game and make all your other decisions more impactful with more data saying they're gonna drive impact. So that's one and the other big one I'd say that I've learned in my journey, you know, and I talked to leaders of organizations and they're talking about policies and procedures and it's like, so to fix it, and I'm pointing outwards fixing it, the irony in all of it is fix it inward. The thing that you're struggling
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Craig Forman:
with most, we're not inclusive enough, we're not, how can you be more inclusive? In particular, as you go up, you know, the levels that the things that you think need to be fixed, you know, how are you fixing it for yourself? How are you doing your work? Because I think oftentimes, and we fix it in ourselves, we can fix it in the org. The answers become way more obvious and not as complicated as you thought. But when we externalize everything, I think there's a problem out there to be fixed versus looking in. So to fix it, fix it, that's pointing out, pointing in, are kind of two big ones that come to mind.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm. Love that. Yeah, I think a lot of times it's like, to your point, the outward, you know, everyone else needs to be fixed.
Craig Forman:
Yeah.
Angela Howard (she/her):
And, you know, usually, it starts at the leadership level. It always starts at the leadership level.
Craig Forman:
There's a lot of impact
Angela Howard (she/her):
And.
Craig Forman:
they have. There's a lot of influence, you know, and oftentimes, yeah, when they detach themselves from it, I mean, there's, you know, things do need to be fixed, policies need to be put in place, but the answer becomes more obvious when they're living it, thinking about it, working through the difficult things in their small teams and groups, you know, so do your work. Understand that the better you do your work and get yourself out of the way, the better you can lead an organization.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Well, Craig, thank you so much for your time and, for dropping the gems of insight. If people wanted to reach out and need help with the right brain, left brain intersection of culture, how would they be able to get in contact with you?
Craig Forman:
I love this because for so long I had another answer and I have a new answer. www.cultrcrg.com which will take you to my culture seat consulting website. It's so exciting to share that because I for the longest time didn't have that. You can also, LinkedIn is my spot. Please connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find me. You can find my organization there. I love to stay connected there. I love to be in touch and just please drop me, if you do drop me a note, let me know you heard this podcast and give me a little bit of insight on why you're reaching out. But I would love to stay connected there. Those two right now are the main ways more to come, but that's how you can stay in touch with me.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Amazing. Thank you so much, Craig, for all the work you do. And we'll be sure to drop all those links in the show notes so folks can reach out. Thank you
Craig Forman:
Thank
Angela Howard (she/her):
so
Craig Forman:
you
Angela Howard (she/her):
much.
Craig Forman:
so much.
