Level Up Leadership with Julianne Guinasso, LMFT and Poonam Natha, LMF
Angela Howard (she/her):
All right, hello, Julianne and Puna. Welcome to the Social Responsibility at Work podcast. It is so wonderful to finally have you both on the podcast. I know it's been a long time coming and I'm looking forward to jumping in and talking a little bit about your perspectives, and your experiences, especially around trauma-informed leadership, which is something that I think we've been talking about on this podcast quite a bit when it comes to the idea of what it means to be psychologically and emotionally safe at work and how leaders and different types of leadership styles, which I know you all will talk about, can facilitate that. So, Juliette, why don't you start with your introduction, tell us who you are, what you do, and the impact you're looking to make on the world. And then we'll go to Puna.
Julianne Guinasso, LMFT:
Yeah, so I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist here in California. Um, and, uh, we'll share a little bit more about our story, but the impact or the hope that we're trying to make is get the relationships back into the workplace or like the human behind the employee. So part of our masters and our experts, our expertise is around. relationships and looking at things through a relational system kind of lens. So we're never seeing someone in isolation. We're always seeing them in connection or relationship to those around them, whether past or future. Um, and so we want to like to revitalize that or bring that, um, kind of connection and relationship and center that around like relational intelligence back into the workplace.
Poonam Natha:
Yeah.
Angela Howard (she/her):
So, we'll
Julianne Guinasso, LMFT:
Yes.
Angela Howard (she/her):
put them.
Poonam Natha:
So same, right? I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist in California. Juliana and I met when we became leaders and supervisors together. And, you know, similar, right? We want to make, and I want to make an impact in the world in that talking about working relationships and bringing that into the workplace is healthy and supportive and not something taboo, that when we honor the entire whole human in the workplace, that that's going to be more fruitful for all of us, leaders and employees alike.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Awesome, I love that. And I love that you two are kind of tackling this together and in partnership with, again, your similar but unique perspectives. And so, Ponam, if you could tell us a little bit more about what we mean by trauma-informed leadership and what is it, why should we care? And then also maybe we could... also talk a little bit about the how, because I think a lot of people listening to this wanna know, okay, I understand that this is important, but how do I do it?
Poonam Natha:
Yeah, so when we talk about trauma-informed leadership, what we're talking about is safety. We're talking about safety in the workplace. We're talking about how to create environments where we can honor people's stories and what they're coming into work with and how we can honor every person's uniqueness and what they bring. And Julianna, I know you have such a beautiful perspective on this as well. I'd love to hear you share, in your words, what that means for you.
Julianne Guinasso, LMFT:
Yeah, I mean, I think Chon from leadership is honoring like the inner landscape of our employees and understanding that Their inner landscape is always being brought into the room at any given moment And so we can like acknowledge that or create space for that and know that that's in the room with us I think we're understanding a better view or a better understanding of how to stay in the relationship or staying Connection with our employees so we're able to like repair ruptures easier and also understand that we're gonna all bring our past, our relationship to relationships in the present and the world with us.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, I love that idea of an inner landscape. I call it context, but I think we're talking about the same thing when we think about highly, leaders who lead with high context and understand, I think, people as individuals and pay attention to the whole person coming into work. I guess, what are the implications of not doing that?
Poonam Natha:
I think that we unintentionally stop critical thinking from happening. I think we unintentionally stop innovation from happening when we don't bring the whole human into the workplace. And I think we stifle the creativity that can happen when we're looking at growth or when we're looking at, even something simple as a process that we need to be able to run something simple, right? I... wish I could come up with a great example right now, but I think it does have an impact on that. It just stops that brainstorming and prevents us from collaborating and being in connection with each other, which as humans we need.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, and I think also, there's a lot of research, I think, around the impact of leadership on people within the workplace, especially from a mental health and health perspective in general. I think we're seeing more and more, I think it's always existed. We knew that toxic leadership and toxic cultures have an impact on people, but now I think it's coming to light how prevalent it is. And so, you know, just for those who are listening, I think going back to the research around the implications of mental health if you have a toxic leader, but also implications of enrichment if you have a good leader, a great leader. And so, you know, that's why, you know, this podcast is around responsibility, we talk about social responsibility, and the fact that you have people within this container for eight to 10 hours a day, whatever that amount is, what is your responsibility to your people? So, Julian, I would love to hear from you as to what is that responsibility. So I think up until this point, we've been very focused on leadership as more like management, right? Like you're a leader, manage the work. And I think what we're talking about specifically is more transformational leadership. So, Julian, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
Julianne Guinasso, LMFT:
Yeah, I mean, the word ethics comes up, which I realized like, what does that mean in this context, right? But yeah, what are the ethical implications of you not only knowing that your work or your business is not just the output but the people themselves, without the people, you wouldn't have like the output you're looking for, right? So I feel like your relationships on scale end up building or creating your work culture, right? So it's like an Um, and so I think, you know, there's, everyone has a work story where they, they're aware of when I was in this kind of work culture, here's how I showed up outside of work. Like, here's the end of my day, feeling so stressed or like exhausted or just upset or triggered by the way I was being spoken to, or like the things that were put on me or like the way I felt like I was being gaslighted or whatnot, right? And so those end up showing so much in our personal life. parents, whether we want to be taking care of our parents or how we want to be as a spouse or a partner, right? And so I think that the implications here are we know that like all of these things overlap in an ecosystem type of way. Like you can't have one without the connection of the other. And so knowing that they're, they're all in connection with one another impact, I think the leader has to like, take that broader lens of not only do I want to do good work here and create a great work culture. culture, but what's the ripple effect beyond this moment? What's the ripple effect that extends past even this meeting? And how will this meeting extend to this person when they're washing their dishes tonight? Are they able to be present with that? Or are they going to be mulling over this meeting and some of the things that come up here?
Poonam Natha:
And if we even zoom out a little bit more, you know, I think what happens is we create cycles. And so when this employee no longer works for us anymore, right, my employee no longer works for me, what are they taking from me? What is the legacy they're carrying? What are they remembering about leadership? Maybe they've moved into a leadership position. And now what cycle are they perpetuating? Are they perpetuating a toxic cycle because there was unhealthy in the workplace? or are they perpetuating something healthy and beautiful? And so there's those ripple effects that occur even beyond this moment and what today looks like, but two years from now, three years from now, 10 years from now.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, absolutely. I think the regenerative nature of leadership is so important. And, you know, I just think we kind of have it, we've had it wrong for decades. Like, I think the way we've been teaching and educating and talking about management and leadership, the constructs of that, I think, have been flawed. And so, you know, both of you I think are doing some great work around redefining and reshaping what we mean by leadership, which I think is first of all, absolutely needed and critical, but also beautiful to see coming from the backgrounds that you both have. So I know you've created these archetypes of leadership. So I would love to hear more about them and how they can be an anchor for people to identify with and then aspire. Maybe Julie can start.
Julianne Guinasso, LMFT:
I think, yeah, I think we wanted to create a container where someone can actually acknowledge their strengths and also then have a container to acknowledge the areas they wanna grow in, in a way that feels like self-honoring. And so the five architects that we tend to talk about come directly from our leadership model. And so we were able to be like, okay, if... Leaders are integrating these five elements. We've seen though that from these anchor points, there's someone who really thrives in this and does this so effortlessly without even trying. Like for me, what might be like such a struggle, right? Like where Poonam shines, it might be such a struggle for me to have to tap in or even get her counsel on something that she just buries. And so really being able to give leaders that. that way of self-honoring and not then feeling so much shame when they're having to look at the areas of learning to grow. Because we find that with leaders if too much of that shame piece comes up, it's really hard for them to have to take a look at what they're missing their mark on. And if you're in leadership, we promise you, you're missing the mark not because you're a bad leader, not because you're a bad person, but just because these... It's so complex that the nuances that go into it and it's always shifting and changing. not every employee is the same, you always have a movement happening with your projects and your employees. And so that relational landscape again is always shifting. And so when you can own what you are great at, you can A, lean into the other people who have different strengths than you, which I think is great. And though you have more capacity to be like, oh yeah, I need to maybe like slow down. I get a little bit curious about like. these patterns that are appearing in front of me that I want to pretend aren't there.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Julianne Guinasso, LMFT:
And so now that I have this container and this language around doing so, it just feels a little safer.
Poonam Natha:
the archetypes give us a way to understand ourselves. And I think that you know, it's so important in leadership to have self-awareness and to be able to reflect on who you are, what you're doing, why you're doing it, and how that then impacts the people around you. And I think that there's so much value in knowing your style, if you will, in all kinds of areas, right? Whether it's in leadership, whether it's in how I manage conflict, or... you know, what's my general personality type, you know, because I think it helps us navigate the world and navigate our interactions with each other.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, I think there's something about hearing and naming things that's important from a leadership perspective because, you know, I've taken a, I'm an IO psychologist, so I know all of the, you know, all the assessments, all of the diagnostic, you know, formats. And you know, I think it's important that we realize, you know, first of all, we can't be put in a box, but it is around this idea of self-awareness. and naming and hearing the words to things that maybe we haven't been able to describe before. So I think that's the power of kind of this idea of an archetype that do you think can change over time? What are your thoughts on this? Is it fluid? Is it something that I should be taking every year? Like what's the cadence that you work with your clients in the format of the assessment?
Julianne Guinasso, LMFT:
Yeah, so we talk about how everyone has all five elements in them. And there's going to be one that just tends to be like, as if like, you know, we all tend to have a dominant right or left hand when we go to write our name. And so if I'm right-handed and I have to go right with my left hand, initially I'm going to feel awkward and uncomfortable. But over time, I could, if I wanted to, at least back when I used to play basketball, I would be trying to eat or brush my teeth with my left hand, right? We can all kind of tap into that. And so I think you look at the archetypes in a similar way where you have this innate part of you that just does this thing without realizing it. And though it's about stretching into these other areas and seeing yourself grow. So technically someone could take it again and show that another strength has emerged or they're shining in that area, but they'll probably tend to still feel like they have that primary. Because again, that's just innate in who they are versus how they think they're supposed to be as a leader. Yeah.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Got it. Very cool. And Poonam, what, give us an example of one of the archetypes, maybe yours, for example, that kind of, you know, on the spectrum of things, you know, you kind of rise at the top and maybe how you and Julianne from a leadership perspective bounce off of each other.
Poonam Natha:
So I'm a nurturer, which means that my strength is really in compassion and kindness. My default is to extend the benefit of the doubt and generosity in any scenario. And it's something that helps people feel comfortable in conversation with me. On the flip side, what that means is I might struggle with accountability sometimes or being honest about what my boundaries are. and maybe take on more than what I need to. And so, you know, the strength is in that compassion, but the area of growth for me is in the overgiving. To stay compassionate and to be able to extend kindness, I need to be aware of what my boundaries are. Otherwise, it's so easy to fall into resentment, you know? And where we balance each other, Julianne, she's the visionary, which means she's constantly inspiring and motivating us. I say all the time I would follow her to all ends of the earth. She's probably heard this a thousand times now But she just has a beautiful way of truly seeing people And seeing people as they are not for what she wants them to be which then inspires and motivates them to be better Julianne you want to share a little bit more about you?
Julianne Guinasso, LMFT:
the weaknesses happily. I feel
Poonam Natha:
I'm
Julianne Guinasso, LMFT:
like
Poonam Natha:
sorry.
Julianne Guinasso, LMFT:
on the flip side, and definitely, a place I lean on for them is, because I tend to be up more in the inspirational space, that means that what to me feels like mundane tasks, which are very necessary and need to be a leader or run a business, those things tend to organizationally. you really drain to me or difficult or I'm like, really do we need to make a list or do we need to write this down? And like, I can think of so many conversations with employees where they're like, yes to everything you said, and we have no idea what you want us to do, like no clue. And I'm like, oh, I thought I was like so clear. Like if someone had asked me afterward, were you clear? I would have been like, yeah, you gave me step-by-step what we're gonna do. And like, everyone's like, no, did not, we have no idea what's next. and we need the process written down. We need to agree on how we're gonna all do this. We can't each just do this in our way. So for the visionary, denting would be very macro and it needs help with some of those day-to-day macro processes.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, and it sounds like, I mean, an organization or, you know, a client that you're working with can probably utilize this model from an individual perspective, but also a team perspective. So, you know, if you both have challenges with clarity and accountability, you know, you probably need a strong operations person to bring it all home. And so I think it works equally. to help you understand what you need to build on, and what you need to improve as a leader, but also from a team or organizational perspective if you're talking about smaller organizations. And if you could tell us, just to kind of tie the bow on all of this because I think a lot of people are probably really curious about this idea of trauma-informed leadership and how to use the archetypes to bring some self-awareness and effectiveness and responsibility to their organization. How do people find you? What are some ways that they can get in contact if they want to reach out?
Julianne Guinasso, LMFT:
So if you go to levelofleaders.org, you will find us there. You'll see the link to our assessment. And you can also see different ways you can wanna work with us. And we're even just learning more about our Cultivate Trust leadership model.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Amazing. And Poonam, any last words, anything that you want to close the conversation with that you think is important for our audience?
Poonam Natha:
To fight the good fight, if you will. Sounds a little
Angela Howard (she/her):
What?
Poonam Natha:
cliche, but truly I think that if leadership is your calling and something kinda wakes in your head that says, hey, I actually wanna do this differently, then feel free to march to the beat of your drum because we don't have to do things the way we've been doing them. This is what's beautiful about leadership is the growth and expansion that we're having right now. So challenge the status quo.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Love that. Well, I want to thank you both so much for being on the podcast and sharing your knowledge. We'll be sure to include a link to your website and the assessment. So if people are curious to learn more about trauma-informed leadership and the archetypes and the model that you all have created, we'll make that accessible to everybody. And just thank you for all the work you do as well.
Poonam Natha:
Thank you for having
Julianne Guinasso, LMFT:
Peace
Poonam Natha:
us.
Julianne Guinasso, LMFT:
out.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Thank you.
