The Neuroscience of Work-Life Balance with Nina Nesdoly
Angela Howard (she/her):
Nina, welcome to the podcast. It's so great to have you on. Thanks for joining.
Nina Nesdoly:
Angela, thanks so much for having me today.
Angela Howard (she/her):
And Nina, tell us who you are, what you do, and the impact you're looking to make on the world.
Nina Nesdoly:
So I do a few different things. I'm a work-life balance, stress and burnout prevention speaker, researcher, and consultant. I study work-related stress from a neuroscience perspective and take that into my talks and workshops and the work that I do with teams and with companies. For my impact on the world, I believe that people can enjoy it. work. Like I think jobs are just so cool and people do such awesome stuff and we can have such better experiences at work and embrace our work and love it if we come from a place of putting well-being first, making sure that relationships, people's health, people's mental well-being is a top priority. So that's the impact I want to have. I want people to understand that rest is productive and that putting well-being, relationships, and health at the forefront will not only make you better at your work, but it's how you create a life that you're excited about and the work will follow.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Oh yeah, I love that. And I think about neuroscience quite frequently. It's like, it's one of those things that if I were to get another degree, I would go for neuroscience because, from a psychology perspective, there's the Venn diagram of concepts that we're both focused on. So that's why I'm super excited for us to jam out today and talk a little bit about how that intersects. So tell us just for people who are listening. who may not understand the intersection between wellness and neuroscience. They may not have ever thought of those two things together. Tell us a little bit about, I guess, the state of that and what are some of the glaring concepts that we should be focused on when it comes to wellness.
Nina Nesdoly:
So I think first it's helpful to define neuroscience versus psychology, like all these different fields because there is so much overlap, but they have their distinctions too. So with neuroscience, it is the study of the nervous system, which includes the brain, and the spinal cord, and then there are all of these other systems in the body that are connected to that. So... neuroscience as a field of research, it's very much focused on understanding how things physically work. And then you kind of branch into neuropsychology, which is lining up what's going on physically in the body with our behavior, and then psychology gets into more thoughts and behavior patterns. And then we've got wellness. And the wellness space covers this huge spectrum, including stress and mental well-being, which is really where I am. But also things like physical health, and nutrition. wear your sunscreen so you don't get burnt to a crisp every time you go outside. Different aspects of taking care of your wellness, whatever that looks like. With neuroscience and with the work that I do, I'm looking at this taking... We experience stress at work and we think about it often at work first and foremost from a psychological perspective. What are we thinking? How are we feeling about it? Stress is a psychological and... physiological response to things in your environment. So there's always something happening in the body and it has widespread implications for other systems in your body when you're stressed, connections to your hormone systems, your heart. Everything is interwoven. And so there's these physiological implications for stress and burnout. And it goes both ways. What's happening in your environment impacts your body. What's happening in your body impacts how you show up. in your environment. So when we bring it all together, we get this wonderful picture of what people are experiencing at work and concerning their wellness.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, and I think for so long, you know, we've been having these conversations around, you know, work and life. And I know we talk about work-life balance and you could call it really whatever you'd like, but it's really around this reality that we have both. And actually, they're intertwined. So whether that's a balance or energy management or however you, you know, however, you develop that in your reality. For so long, I think we've... learned or been conditioned that work is work and life is life and never the two shall meet. Let's keep these things separate. So what are some things that I guess, from a workplace culture perspective, where we've gone wrong?
Nina Nesdoly:
Oh, interesting question. So I think from a workplace culture perspective concerning wellness, there has been an overemphasis on the role of individuals in wellness. I'm curious if you see this as well. I think it's not entirely wrong. You know, we are adults at work and we have a responsibility for our wellness. And there are things that we can do. If you are going to work. And then your boss did not ask you to, but you're taking home 18 documents and writing them in the middle of the night because you want to appear a certain way. And that's not actually what's being asked of or expected of you. Sometimes it's personal. Sometimes you've got to look at what you're doing. But at the same time, organizations, in my opinion, have a responsibility to foster environments where well-being is possible, where people can set boundaries, can express overwhelm. can say, hey, this process that we've been using for 15 years isn't working anymore. Things have changed. So that's what I think is being missed sometimes in the conversation about wellness, stress, and burnout. There's an equation in psychology that I like. It's called Lewin's equation. And it says person times environment equals behavior.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Nina Nesdoly:
So some things are personal, but some things are environmental, and that's what's going to determine the outcome. And for whatever reason, it seems to be challenging sometimes for people to think about both at once, to say, hey, here's these individual components of wellness that we need, but also here's the environment, or vice versa.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, and I would agree with you that I think the wellness industry has been hyper-focused. And the fact that we even have a wellness industry is kind of problematic, right? Because, I mean, in a way, it's a great thing that we're, you know, focused on this movement towards well-being, but it has become an industry. So we're focusing the money on mass, you know, in mass. So. in a way, it's like, well, yeah, it would be beneficial for us to purchase this app for everybody. And you got it. Go take that yoga class. Go be mindful and meditate. And not pairing that, like you said, with sustainable workplace practices that, one, support that type of behavior. Because what I also see is, OK, we're going to throw a bunch of things at you. But behaviorally, we're not going to support it. We just. perceptually want you to know that these tools are here, but when you use them, that's a problem.
Nina Nesdoly:
This is why I love working with teams as opposed to working with
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Nina Nesdoly:
individuals. Not that there's no value in that, but one of the things I love about going in and working with teams is we have the whole team in there. And I am specific that my workshops are, and my training is not just for employees. I want managers to be in attendance because I'm going to share things with the employees about how to manage their time, how to set boundaries, and how to take proper breaks. And so everyone needs to be on board that this is what we're doing going forward. And this is what it's going to look like. It's a lot of fun sometimes, especially when I have smaller teams when you get the full spectrum, like up to the C-suite in a smaller team and Stuff will come up where people will be like, yeah, we're going to have this break schedule and someone will say, Hey, guess what? My job is set up so that I cannot take breaks. So let's talk about it. And that's why I love working with teams. because then you get to have all the puzzle pieces that come together to influence not only what people are doing, but what's going on in the culture.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Nina Nesdoly:
But that whole conversation to you is something that, like with the apps and stuff, I think about so much in my work because I sincerely want to do what is right for people, to help with stress and burnout prevention and work-life balance. But I'm also very aware that it is an industry. So I'm conscious of trying to... come at it from an angle where I'm giving people strategies that they can use without spending a ton more money or throwing a bunch of stuff at them. Like when
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Nina Nesdoly:
I teach stress relief, I teach it from the perspective of what makes effective stress relief rather than Here's a list of 18 ways that you can relieve stress that you don't have time for, jokes on you.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Right. Let's add to the day. Yeah, that'll work.
Nina Nesdoly:
Yeah, we need to be taking things out.
Angela Howard (she/her):
And that's a good point, which I think from an organizational culture perspective, from a team perspective, from an individual perspective, I have to remind folks sometimes that, you know, culture change, behavior change is not always about adding on. I think we tend to add on the wellness program, the culture program, the DE&I program, and all the programs and initiatives, when in reality it's just about looking at your value system. and doing a bit of an audit on your habits, your behaviors, your norms around productivity that you've set.
Nina Nesdoly:
Absolutely. One of the quickest ways to make everybody have a better day is to just make your work blocks and your meetings 10 minutes shorter so everybody gets a break. You're not going to get less done because people will have more energy and they will be less stressed. And that's taking something out. Take all your meetings, take them from an hour, make them 50 minutes. Give people time to get up, stretch their legs, move around, go to the washroom. It will not change your productivity levels.
Angela Howard (she/her):
I love a 50-minute meeting, I love a 20-minute meeting. I am a huge fan of those. I guess because I'm sure you're working with a lot of tactics and it is, it comes down to tactics, it does. It comes down to tactics, I think routine, behavior change within the organization, but then again, the individual. What are some, I guess some trends that maybe you feel like are, like just kind of make you cringe? Because, you know, I hear about all these trends around like the four-day work. I'm not saying this is cringy, but, you know, the four-day work week or, you know, we've got quite quitting, we've got quite hiring, we've got all the buzzwords. Which ones make you cringe the most?
Nina Nesdoly:
Quiet quitting makes me cringe the most. I have a friend who said it perfectly the other day. She said, you know, we keep relabeling the same issues in a new
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Nina Nesdoly:
way because if we give it a new label, then now it's something new. We don't know how to handle it. I was like, that's
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Nina Nesdoly:
exactly it. Like quiet quitting is just, people have become burnt out and disengaged at work. So now they're just showing up. They're just doing the minimum. or they're setting boundaries. There are a lot of different conceptualizations of quitting.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Nina Nesdoly:
So I don't a hundred percent know exactly what we're going with,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Nina Nesdoly:
but I saw the original TikTok that it came out of and it was just this guy being like, you know, I've applied myself a ton at work that's not working for me. So now rather than being a high achiever and overachiever, I'm just gonna do my job and go home. The media picked it up and ran with it and was like, people are quite quitting and it's terrible and they're disengaged and their workplace is falling apart and, and I mean, it's just people doing their job. That's the original trend and now it's taken on new meaning and it's become this like extra word for disengaged and burnt out and then we don't know how to solve it because it's a new thing and it's cringy.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, yeah, quiet quitting is just like the OG of, I mean, well, disengagement is the OG of quiet quitting. And I agree with you that, and I had an upsetting reaction to it because it is just taking the focus off of the things that matter. And the fact that we're working in a workplace system that exploits. versus focuses on an abundance of the individuals, and the wellness of the individuals. And
Nina Nesdoly:
Yeah.
Angela Howard (she/her):
that's the problem. Let's talk about the exploitation. Let's talk about how we focus on productivity and profit versus people. And then we burn people out eventually, which again, it's just like this cycle.
Nina Nesdoly:
Thank you.
Angela Howard (she/her):
The four-day work week two is something that, I don't think it's cringy. I think there's a lot of research that's coming out. other countries, and other areas that are piloting it. And, you know, but I do like to get to the root of things. So I think a four-day workweek is great. I think we also see people asking people to come back into the office on arbitrary days. And it always comes back to, I think, agency and autonomy. Everyone, I believe, needs to have a choice on how they manage their wellness and their life. And I think sometimes organizations overcompensate for things like lack of clarity, and lack of leadership with control.
Nina Nesdoly:
I agree with you about autonomy and control. And I think it's one of the reasons that people have this obsession with the quit your job narratives that you see on social media too, like everyone's going to quit their job and start a seven-figure online business.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes, of course.
Nina Nesdoly:
I'm partially self-employed, so I'm doing a PhD, and I'm also self-employed. It's not like the easiest thing in the world to be self-employed. It's a bit of a roller coaster some days. But I think what draws people to it sometimes is the autonomy, where people, it's not actually that they hate what they're doing, or they don't like their industry, or even that they want to be an entrepreneur. I think sometimes people just want a little bit more control over their day. And when they see that narrative of quitting your job and like, you know,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Nina Nesdoly:
even the joke with entrepreneurs is I left my nine to five so I could work 24 seven. It's the autonomy that I think draws people to that even if they loved the industry and the job that they were in before. People don't have autonomy if they don't have a sense of control. It's not even just a frustration. It's one of the... six root causes of burnout identified in the research is lack of control. We have decades of research in the field of management showing that when people feel that they don't have control, they experience greater stress and more strain at work.
Angela Howard (she/her):
So this has been a good segue into burnout because I know we've talked about neuroscience and the intersection of well-being. I think burnout is a result of obviously not managing that organizationally. I do believe there can be organizational burnout. I think that's what you see sometimes when organizations fail or there's kind of this compound of things like, how did that happen? And it's like, okay. Maybe you pushed your people too far because they're not machines. So what is burnout and why should we care?
Nina Nesdoly:
So the definition of burnout that I use is from the World Health Organization and that definition is that burnout is an occupational phenomenon resulting from chronic work stress that has not been successfully managed. Throwback to what we were talking about earlier with cringy things. The other thing I find cringy currently is how since the pandemic, we're redefining burnout and making it just like an individual thing. I see posts about people saying, you know, we've got to stop talking about burnout and stop, start talking about exploitation. And like the term burnout was meant to be an occupational phenomenon. Like it was there. Anyways, that's an aside.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah.
Nina Nesdoly:
But the evolution of language is something that sometimes I find a little cringy too. As for why it matters, I mean, there's the individual level, and then there's the team and organizational level. For individuals, burnout predisposes you to all kinds of other health conditions, including depression, heart disease, all kinds of other physical health consequences, and mental health consequences down the road. It makes it hard to function. People are constantly tired. They feel cynical. They have this lost sense of accomplishment. So even when they're doing great things, they don't get to enjoy it for themselves. There's a huge cost to individuals of burnout. For the organizations, the costs are things like people quitting. So the turnover rates are high. That ends up being expensive. There is tons of loss concerning productivity, concerning performance. Also, people are miserable and work is not a good place to be when people are burnt out.
Angela Howard (she/her):
And I think we talk, going back to the individual versus the organization, some of the things that I'm starting to see, which are interesting, because I'm, I'm not judging right away, but I'm also keeping a watchful eye on it. But a lot of organizations are trying to teach or build capability around things like resilience,
Nina Nesdoly:
Mm.
Angela Howard (she/her):
around managing burnout. Right? So they're trying to build this individual capability. which I think is good. And there's the piece around, again, the practices, the norms, the policies, all the organizational culture stuff. And leadership role modeling, I think, is really important. So can you tell us a little bit about, I guess, the impact of leadership role modeling? What's the social part of this conversation around wellness and burnout?
Nina Nesdoly:
What leaders do impacts people, I think, so much more than both employees and leaders realize. There was a study published by UKG earlier this year that found that people's managers have a greater impact on them than their doctors, which given the state of the Canadian healthcare system at least was not surprising to me because it's hard to get a family doctor to begin with. However the impact of the manager on... mental health was equivalent to the impact of a spouse. So I think that does a better job of highlighting just how powerful that is. It makes sense, we spend a lot of time around our managers, around our colleagues. There are numerous studies, I did my master's thesis on the way that leadership impacts how employees experience stress at work and reviewed dozens and dozens of papers. looking at how leadership impacts stress. And it is both directly through just, you know, the leader makes the employee more or less stressed, and it's also through things like leaders influencing the way that employees perceive the demands of their job. So the impact of leadership is massive. And I love that you mentioned modeling, the behaviors that leaders are modeling because what I see is that it doesn't matter what leaders say. If they say, hey, everybody, take care of yourself, feel wonderful, and don't check your emails tonight, and then the leader is sending out emails at 2 a.m., they're still setting a standard. If they are saying one thing, saying well-being matters, but then constantly rewarding the people who are overworking and breaking themselves and burning themselves out, and not recognizing the people who are setting boundaries and taking care of themselves. then of course the people who were trying to focus on wellness are going to go, well, obviously I need to burn out to get anything done at this company. So the modeling is, is huge, and the consistency between what leaders say and encourage versus what they do and what they reward.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, and that is, you know, going back to the conversation around culture, you know, that's how we think about culture too is typically when we're thinking about culture transformation or even like refreshing our ethos, right, our value system. A lot of times we're looking at the mismatch between our words, the beautiful words on the website, the core values, all those things, and what happens within the organization, what people experience. And I think this is just like... It's such cognitive dissonance for people. I think currently when you have employers who are saying, yes, we focus on work-life balance and wellbeing. And when you're having the conversation, when you're getting recruited, it's wonderful. It's a beautiful picture that's painted. And then you kind of have this buyer's remorse when you come into the organization and nobody's doing the thing. So I think there's just this... there's this just like right under the surface that, you know, I know you do this too because you're great at balancing the conversation about the individual and the organization and holding them accountable. But that's part of the work that we do is holding leaders and organizations accountable and individuals to say, you know, what's preventing you and how do we get things out of your way, but let's do what we say we're going to do.
Nina Nesdoly:
Yeah, I love that you mentioned job interviews too. It's one of the questions I get all the time is how do I find organizations that are going to support my work-life balance? Companies and interviewers, they're going to say whatever they know will appeal to you during an interview. So I always tell people to not only ask questions but express themselves. Like
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Nina Nesdoly:
when they ask you questions like, how do you handle stress? Do not sit there and say, I work well under pressure, stress me out, I got it, I can take it, and then expect you're gonna get hired at a company with great work-life balance. They're ready to take advantage of that. But if you're in your interview and they say something like, how do you handle stress? And you say, I have non-negotiables in my life, like spending time with my family, and my morning workout. If I get frustrated with something, I expect to be able to ask people for help and to get feedback on my work. then if they don't offer those things or if they're going to be angry at you for going to see your family, hopefully, they're not gonna hire you in the first place. So you kind of have to self-eliminate out
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Nina Nesdoly:
of those cultures.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, I think you bring up a great point, which is, I think, stepping into your truth about the wellness conversation and what burns you out and what wellness looks like for you and that choice and that autonomy. We need to start doing that in interviews, because, again, you're going to track the organizations that align from a values perspective. But if you think you're just saying the things that they want to hear, and then that leads to you joining an organization that you know, people are sleeping in their offices and, you know, working all hours of the night, then that's what you're going to get. So I think matching your values with the organization is important. And you can only do that if you're real and you're honest.
Nina Nesdoly:
Absolutely.
Angela Howard (she/her):
And yeah, and we don't become, I guess, you know, we don't back into this state of being afraid of saying something that it's a two-way street. It's a way street.
Nina Nesdoly:
It's hard to admit though, like it's hard to, especially in our very productive culture, you know, your worth is still linked to accomplishments. It's hard to opt out of that and to put your well-being first. I started my Ph.D. at a different program than the one that I'm in now. The first program was not a good fit for me. It was not the right environment. And I realized after a few months that if I stayed there, it was going to compromise my well-being. And I worried that I wasn't even going to finish the program because I was going to be miserable going forward. So to put my well-being first and protect myself, I realized that I needed to leave, but it was a really hard decision because it was a very prestigious program. And when I would tell people where I went to school, they'd be like, oh wow, like that's amazing. I transferred to a program that is still very good but doesn't have quite that level of excitement associated
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Nina Nesdoly:
with it when people hear about it, but I love it. and I feel great and I feel so much more supported and I have a much better lifestyle. I'm at yoga a few times a week when I did, I did a TEDx talk in April, which was kind of a crazy thing to put on my Ph.D. workload and being self-employed, but my supervisor
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Nina Nesdoly:
was so supportive. So the whole time I had this supportive supervisor, I had a workload that, yeah, it was intense, but it was manageable for that couple month period of getting ready for it. and I kept going to my yoga classes, my dance nights, and seeing my friends, I don't know that would have been possible in the other program. So it was a really scary decision to put my well-being first. But in my experience, it does work out. Like when you find the places that have the right fit, the right values, and people who will support you. You can accomplish more than you were going to if you were burnt out, miserable, and exhausted anyway.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Oh, 100%. And thank you for sharing your story about how you navigated some really tough decisions around, and I think it takes a lot of self-awareness, and a lot of self-reflection to get there, but also it does sometimes come back to that individual decision. Like, if this is what I want my life to look like, and this is how I wanna manage my wellness, this is not going to work for me. And that comes with some privilege, right? Sometimes we can't, some people are in positions where we can't make those decisions, but if we can, if we have that privilege, we should. And I think it says, it also sends a message to other people who may have the opportunity, but just don't see it as even an option. So thank you for all the work you do, Nina. for organizations. I know we talked about a lot today. We talked about the organization and the system and how workplace culture needs to shift to support the individual, but also the sustainability of the company. If people are burnt out, we're not going to have a company. We're not going to have any kind of production. So I think there's an organizational piece, there's a leadership piece around role modeling and... you know, we're just social beings and we look to other people for permission in some cases around behavior. And so if someone with authority or with leadership is not role modeling, that becomes problematic. But also to your point around the opposite, which is supportive leaders who have a sense of responsibility around the wellness of their people. So we talked about a lot. I could talk forever. Tell us where people can find you. Tell us. a little bit more about your TEDx talk that I know is upcoming and we'll wrap the conversation.
Nina Nesdoly:
Yeah, so people can find me using my full name, Nina Nezdoli, N-I-N-A-N-E-S-D-O-L-Y, on TikTok, Instagram, or LinkedIn. I do not know of any other Nina Nezdolis, so I should come up right away. You can also head to one of my websites, WorkplaceClarity, or nina.nestoli.com for speaker bookings or work stress and burnout prevention training and consulting for organizations. My TEDx talk, I'm so excited about. If it's not up right now when this episode is airing, then it is coming very, very soon. It's on how to relieve stress. And to our conversation earlier, it is my three-part framework. for effective stress relief instead of another list of things to do.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Nina Nesdoly:
It's meant to make stress relief feel easy and inspire people to lead with stress relief. The idea is that you don't have to wait until you get everything done to take care of yourself.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Perfect. Well, thank you for the impact you're making, Nina, and thanks for the conversation today and for sharing all of your amazing knowledge with us. Really
Nina Nesdoly:
Thank
Angela Howard (she/her):
appreciate
Nina Nesdoly:
you
Angela Howard (she/her):
it.
Nina Nesdoly:
so much, Angela.
