Unleashing Employee Potential with Jason Lauritsen
Angela Howard (she/her):
Jason, welcome to the podcast. It's so great to finally have you. I feel like this has been a long time coming.
Jason:
Like I said when you invited me, any opportunity to have a conversation with you, I'm in. So if we have to record it to make it happen, then let's do it. So I'm here.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes, yes. Well, I feel like we're capturing time in a bottle right now because I'm gonna jump just right in, because I think the reason why we wanted to have this conversation today, it kinda came, I mean, I always spent a little bit of time in the beginning talking to guests, like what's on your heart and mind? What's at top of mind? And I think one of the things that you mentioned was really all around. the remote work narrative. We're hearing kind of these different, I don't know, narrative stories, headlines. So given your work around performance and organizational effectiveness, I feel like this is just a great conversation for us to have. But first, who are you, what do you do, tell the audience a little bit about who Jason is.
Jason:
Well, where do I start? Where do I start?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hehehe
Jason:
So my name is Jason Lourtzen. If you can spell my last name, you can go learn lots about me on the Googles because I am a speaker, I am an author. I've written a couple books about relationships and workplace. I am a management and leadership trainer. I've kind of been on a quest for the last 20 or 25 years to. try to fix work, if you will. I fundamentally believe work is very, very broken for people and it doesn't need to be. So that is my calling and what I do every day. I'm also a proud husband and father to three. I live in Nebraska and I am an unabashed Duke Blue Devils basketball fan. And so those are the key things you need to know about me to understand.
Angela Howard (she/her):
You know, I think when we talk about fixing work, I think you and I are kindred spirits in that sense that we're really looking to create something better. And one of the things that I think is, I don't know, a hot topic, a buzzy topic right now is remote work, hybrid work, is it working, is it not working? So let's start with just kind of setting the scene, the landscape of the conversation right now. What are you hearing? What are the two sides or the three sides or the different perspectives on this issue?
Jason:
Yeah, I don't know how many sides there are. I mean, clearly, there are a couple of camps, right? We live in a country that loves the polarization. And so
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-mm.
Jason:
I feel like a bit of what's happening is there's a few old rich white men on one side of the issue that seem to be trying to convince us that the... The idea that remote work can be effective was apparently a fever dream or we were all smoking crack or something like that for a while. We just imagined the fact that we all did all of this work, all these employees that were able to produce work very effectively at home while also being able to live their lives more seamlessly or more effectively and be better parents and whatever. That was all our imagination. And now it's time to, you know, for the grownups to be in charge again and get everybody back into the office where, where real work can happen. And so we have that narrative going on right now. I mean, just every week there's a new one. And it's, I don't know why it's always old white guys, um, Elon Musk and Jamie Diamond and whoever else telling us that we need to be back in the office to do work. So you have that. Happening. And then on the other side of it, then what's I think. the reaction to that because they are taking that position. I think the reaction is a lot of employees and a lot of people are feeling forced into a position of no, remote is better, right? So we need to defend remote, it should be remote. And so this, you set up this false battle between the two, and the reality is it's neither. it's neither good or bad. I think this whole narrative has gotten lost in that. But those are the two issues you have a lot of employees that are fighting for remote, not because they in a lot of cases, it's not even they want to be only remote or because they don't like seeing their colleagues going into the office. It's because number one, they've got that they now know, well, here's one of the most important things. Sorry, this is a good topic for me because I'm just super irritated about
Angela Howard (she/her):
I feel
Jason:
it. And
Angela Howard (she/her):
the
Jason:
so
Angela Howard (she/her):
passion, I
Jason:
yeah,
Angela Howard (she/her):
feel
Jason:
very
Angela Howard (she/her):
it.
Jason:
irritated by this. One thing that these leaders don't understand is that pre-pandemic, they were able to get away for years and years and years by saying, I'm sorry that we can't offer you teleworking or more days from home because it's just not possible. Your job, it's not possible for us to enable that. And employees had no choice but to believe the leaders when the leaders were telling them this. And then along came COVID
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
and 24 hours later, it was made possible. And so employees know that, oh, yeah, that's right. You were lying to me. The only reason you didn't want me, or the only reason I couldn't have that flexibility is because you didn't want to give it to me. So now when they're saying, no, really, we need to be back in the office. We're more productive there and our culture will be better. Employees are like, yeah, I've heard this before. And you were lying to me then and you're lying to me now. And so that's one of the narratives I think that's happening. And I think the other narrative or the other thing that's happening that's forcing the polarization is employees are saying, okay, even if you're telling me it's just going to be hybrid a few days a week, it feels like a loss of control, a loss of flexibility, a loss of agency you're taking away. And boy, it's one step, right? And then you're just going to drip it away and drip it away and drip it away. So that I think there's a lot of people that feel like we got a tow the line. And so hence, you end up with the narrative in the news that's interesting is the executives want you back, the employees don't want to go back, and a war ensues. And that's not the reality. That's not what's actually happening.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, and I think there's a bit of a, I mean, certainly we see the relationship between employees and employers changing. And I think there is this, I don't know, maybe awakening, but also I think it's been kind of this brewing pot for a long time, which is like, these things used to happen maybe under the surface, where it's like, I could totally do that from home. Why do I need to go into the office? Why do I need to be in this meeting? But now it's like, I know I can do this. Why are you arbitrarily forcing me into the office? I'm an adult, you hired me for a reason, and I have agency and autonomy. So, I guess what else is under the surface? Because I think there are some power dynamics maybe? What are your thoughts?
Jason:
Well, as I was sharing with you, because I was irritated about this, I kind of went on a bit of a, um, a research or curiosity expedition. I invited a bunch of people on my email list to sign up for a 30-minute coffee conversation about this topic. Cause I wanted to hear what people's actual experience was like, what's actually going on out there around this topic? How are companies navigating this? And over the course of a month, I had almost 50 conversations with people from all kinds of different companies, all different sizes, all different places across the U.S., um, most of these were HR leaders and it's super interesting. The nuances of what's going on here. Um, are really fascinating. And one of them is. You know, like one of the things that I came to through all those conversations is I'm really trying to, and I just broke my own rule, but it makes for better, it makes for better sort of reactive material. But I'm trying to find some compassion for executives who are making the decision to pull people back into the office. Because on some level, I do believe many of them actually believe they're doing the right thing.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Jason:
They are afraid. that their culture is degrading,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
even though they have no idea how to define or measure their culture. They are, in their worldview, in their experience of how work happens like it's easier to do work. If you're an executive, you work through relationships. That's what you do. You have conversations and having an office and being near the people you need to be in conversation with, is really important and really helpful. So in their view of what work is, being in the office is really helpful and really valuable.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
And I think they've, a lot of times they've just kind of lost perspective or lost connection with the day-to-day reality of other employees. I also think often their lived experience is very removed. You know, when you're making hundreds of thousands of dollars and you can afford whatever you need in terms of enabling your life, you lose track of the fact that when you ask someone to come into the office who's been working from home the last three years, it's super disruptive and it might actually make their life infinitely more complicated, more expensive. There's a whole bunch of costs that they're not accommodating for. And so I think, but all that to be said, the dynamics underneath it I think are, very simply I do think that there's a power struggle. I mean, I
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
think it's, I, I personally believe that a majority of it boils down to those leaders who are skilled leaders and
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Jason:
who can lead human beings effectively and understand sort of the management of human beings are not struggling with this issue. This issue is an issue at companies where they have poor leaders. or they have ineffective management. Almost every issue around this is, I think can be chalked up to ineffective management and a lack of leadership skills. And so that's what the real issue is, and it's really hard to get executives to own that.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, I would agree with you. I think the same thing, which is, you know, COVID kind of like revealed in a way, just kind of like took all of the, you know, the performative stuff and wiped it away and said, this is the leadership team you have. And people were under stress and a little bit of chaos. And that's where leadership really shines, that response, that feeling of responsibility to people and the equity, you know. creating equitable experiences for people, having human conversations about what they need and how they could be successful., I think you're 100% correct, that it really boils down to leadership. And I think there is this, you know, I hear, because I work with executives and leaders too, around this issue, and what I hear is, well, how are we going to build culture if they're not here in person? You know, we need to be in person. I need to feel it, I need to feel the culture. What are your thoughts on that?
Jason:
That's a great question, and it's one that I've been thinking about a lot because culture is the... culture's at the heart of usually the conversation around this. And I honestly believe that the reason culture's at the heart of it is because even though the people that are saying, our culture is changing or degrading or diminishing, even though they probably can't define that culture clearly, they've never thought about how to measure it or manage it directly really in the past, they also know nobody else can either. And so it's the perfect straw man argument to make
Angela Howard (she/her):
Bye!
Jason:
when you're wanting to get people to do things for whatever reason. Now, again, some of, some of them, I'm not saying that it's bad, that they're ill intentions. I think they're afraid. They're afraid because they don't understand how to manage and lead in this environment. It's a different world. And so the best word they can grab on, grab onto rather than saying, Hey, I'm not sure how to do this. I'm not confident I can lead in this environment. Therefore, I'm going to invoke culture as
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
a mechanism to bring people back together. It's got me thinking, and I'm curious what you think about this. Like I've been on, I have been, um, for most of my career, I've had kind of a, I'll call it a love-hate relationship with culture because, um, Culture is kind of like, um, it seems like in, uh, in organizations, we treat culture the way that the Supreme court, you know, addressed pornography it's like, well,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Jason:
we don't really know how. to define it, but you know it when you see it, right? Or you know, that's kind of, and that's sort of how we have traditionally treated culture. And some people certainly are much more, you know, there are people that have defined and measured culture in academic circles and some consultancies, whatever. But in most cases, it's this abstract thing that we talk about and invest a lot of money in and a lot of energy around. And it's usually very squishy. It's hard
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Jason:
to pin down. It's hard to understand how it's driving business. It's hard to, um, it's hard to really wrap your arms around it. And so what I'm wondering is, is it time that we have kind of a reckoning around this whole, this whole conversation about culture because culture isn't a like tangible thing. Maybe we can measure, you know, you can measure anything if you can find it into some kind of a box and you draw a definition that's tight enough. But I'm like, is it maybe it's time we rethink it? Maybe it's time that we
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Jason:
reconsider the notion of this idea of culture? What is it exactly? Is it still a relevant consideration in this new world of work? Is culture still all that important? Or maybe should we be talking about values, or maybe should we be
Angela Howard (she/her):
Thanks
Jason:
talking
Angela Howard (she/her):
for watching!
Jason:
about expectation clarity, or maybe should we be talking about other things that are certainly more central and tangible and more understood as levers that impact work. And so I don't know. I'm curious what you're thinking about culture these days because that's where I'm at. I'm kind of in question mode right now.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, no, I can totally understand that. Because, you know, like most things, we have a branding problem, right? You know, where we're like, you know, we're talking about DE&I, but what are we actually talking about? You know, and it becomes a buzzword. So, yeah, I would agree with you. Culture is how your values translate into the behaviors of your people. I mean, it's whether your words match your actions. It's a pretty simple concept. I think we've romanticized it, I agree with you. I think it's become this buzzword that nobody really knows what we're talking about. But I do believe there are ways to identify a line and develop and measure your culture. Whatever we mean by culture, right?
Jason:
Right, right.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah.
Jason:
Well, and I wonder, I mean, I think that's the that's at really the heart of it is, you know, if we're going to talk about culture. And I think this is one of the things that came up interestingly in my conversations at times
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
is that I think well-intentioned executives are actually doing harm in how they're handling this because they'll say things like, well, this is impacting our culture. And yet if they get pressed on it, they can't really point to specifically how it's impacting their culture or they can't. Um, and more, and the more, the bigger damage actually is when they talk about productivity is they'll
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mmm.
Jason:
say, well, we, you know, we're not as productive. Employees aren't as productive at home. And you've got employees saying, wait a minute, like that is definitively not true. And I can show you the evidence. So where, where are you seeing this? And so it's undermining, it's undermining trust, it's undermining credibility. And as a result, that's causing an even bigger issue. Um, and so I think there's, I, and it's really the important thing in this is again, it's not, I mean, the thing that I get, uh, that I think is fundamentally the biggest issue that we're wrestling with is that first off the language we're using to talk about this issue often is not helpful. Um, and we're not talking about the right things. And so we end up, you know, we're debating over time, you know, how many days in the office or whatever. And it's like, what are we doing? Like what, literally, what are we doing? I was talking to a, uh, one of the conversations that really landed with me as I was talking to a woman who, she was an HR leader at a, um, I think it was like an advertising branding kind of agency.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Thanks for watching!
Jason:
And she was talking about how like pre-pandemic they were the kind of they were in office, like most were, but they had a fairly flexible kind of management culture. So like, yeah,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
you're in the office, but nobody's, nobody's like watching the clock, you can, you know, if you needed to go to a doctor's office, doctor's appointment, or go pick up your kids or go to a kid's thing or do whatever, you just gave your teammate a heads up or your team a heads up or your manager, whatever, and then you were out, right? They in that what there was not that kind of looking over the shoulder. And then now the pandemic here, they've been remote. They're bringing people back in and, you know, they're working on, okay, well, it's going to start as one day a week and then it's going to be two and then it's going to be three. And they're getting people asking questions like, well, are we going to have to like, you know, how are you tracking hours or whatever? And I'm, and it was interesting in that conversation is I was like, you can see from an employee perspective how in a hybrid one of these three two situations that everybody
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
seems to be infatuated with right now that it feels less flexible to be, you know, required to be in the office these specific three days. And then the other two days then what you had before when you there
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
was we weren't talking about days in the office. It was just we're talking about work and granted, I understand we've got a you know, we're, we're in a new world. So we have to have these conversations, but we're back to having conversations about where you're working when you're, we're talking about time. Like, what are we doing? Like
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm
Jason:
so much of this is a recall of the 1950s management playbook that we're using right now. And so I asked her, I'm like, why are you, why are you even talking about hybrid? Why are you not talking about flexibility? And why aren't we like, instead of saying you have to be in the office these days, why aren't we saying our office is going to be open and full services available on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, we encourage you to have your meetings and collaborative, you know, interactions during those days, Mondays and Fridays, you're welcome to be in the office, but we wouldn't have full services. But like, we're going to create a flexible remote-friendly. workplace environment, like that, feels completely different and yet probably accomplishes the same thing that they're after. We're just doing it backward. Like we're talking
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm
Jason:
about the wrong things.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, why haven't we gotten this right? I mean, we talked about executives, right? And I think I agree, I have compassion because I'm in those conversations where I'm seeing the grief, the grieving actually happens, right? Where we're going from like, I built this company and now people don't wanna be with me, they don't wanna be in the same space as me. I see their little hearts breaking, I get it. The grieving is happening, I have compassion. But I think it's also a little bit below the surface, like control and I don't trust my people, I don't trust employees, period. The different power dynamics of executives, employees, and employees are always there. Why else aren't we getting it right? Are there other structural things or social aspects that are contributing to this breakdown?
Jason:
Well, I think you nailed it that there's. What I came to understand through all these conversations and then the other reading that I've been doing and thinking about this was that I think the complexity in this all boils down to three words and they're flexibility, trust, and connection. Those are the real issues that are underlying everything here. And so trust you just nailed is like, you can't do this without trust. And the reality is that Whether you trust your people or not, or like whether they're in the office or at home doesn't mitigate that it just gives a false sense of security around, Oh, I can see them, so they must be working. That's just a holdover again, back to you just don't have the leadership skills. The, flexibility, ultimately, is what employees, employees have been screaming and clamoring for flexibility for decades. And they got it through a global pandemic. It was forced upon organizations. Probably too much flexibility, right? In some cases, there's people that's like, you still have employees that are struggling with, they don't know how to manage boundaries, they're working
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
too much, there's spillover, there are consequences for them too. And so flexibility and what that means and how to manage it is another big issue on both sides of the equation. And then the third is connection. And I think, to directly address your question about one of the other underlying things is that At the heart of one of the things I talk about all the time, at the center of my work, my work is all about relationships. I came to understand over the course of the last 20 years that all of the data is there telling us that work is a relationship and employees experience work as a relationship. The problem in that is that management was, when management was invented some 120, 30 years ago, It was designed, Gary Hamill is one of my heroes, one of my, author Gary Hamill talks about,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
he describes that the purpose of management when it was invented was to get human beings to behave like semi-programmable robots.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
And that was the legacy on which, you know, that was the intent. And then that's become the legacy of management. And when you think about that, everything in that then became about how do we get people to behave more consistently and more repeatedly. And in those days, people were doing jobs that were better suited for machines. We just didn't have the machines yet. And so that made perfect sense. Now, treating people like that's really bad. And so then there was the rise of labor unions. And out of that came, well, if we're gonna treat people like machines, then the way that people are going to have to push back is they're gonna need. we're going to need to have some clearer agreements about what's okay and what's not because otherwise, you're going to run everybody in the ground. And hence came sort of treating work more like a contract.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
And so employees are used to being, I mean, so the legacy of management is two things, treat people like semi-programmable robots and treat work as if it's a contract to be enforced with the employee. Now, on the other side of this, you have employees who want to be treated like they're in a healthy relationship with work. That doesn't work. And that has never worked. That's why we've had engagement numbers as we've had. And the problem is now it's kind of like, you're always amazed by how like people can be married for like 20 years or 25 years and then get a divorce. It's like, well,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hehehe. Hmm.
Jason:
simply being in proximity to one another doesn't guarantee a healthy, um, nourishing, thriving relationship. You can occupy the same house for decades and not be in love and not care for each other or whatever, but you stay together. for whatever reason, because the kids aren't, you know,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hehehe
Jason:
we're going to stick it out for the kids or for financial reasons or whatever. The same thing happens, that's what's happening. Most employees are in this sort of loveless marriage with work, and they have been for a long time. The spouse they're with, the executive or
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
the leader doesn't know how to be in a good, healthy relationship, and has lost sight of what that even means or feels like or looks like, but they've come to equate it with occupying the same physical space. And
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Jason:
so, the relationship. So if we don't do that, then what do we have? And
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Jason:
I will argue that it's really hard to maintain, you know, a remote rel- or a, you know, what do they call that a long distance relationship if there's no real relationship underneath it.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Jason:
And so that's what that is, I think, at the heart of what's happening right now. And why so many of them are like, cut, you know like I need to feel your love. So I need you to be in the same space so I can see
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
you. Cause that is very literally the only thing that makes me think I still have a relationship with you.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, that's a brilliant explanation. I mean, I could talk all day about, you know, the Industrial Revolution and, you know, how all these things came to be, and that's like, I could nerd out, we could do a whole new episode on that one, because I do think it has shaped what work is today and why it's broken and why we're giving lip service to human-centered work, but then doing things that equate more to, you know, like, how do you run machinery and, you know, assembly lines and things like that. So, loyalty comes to mind when you talk about this feeling. I think about relationships, but also relationships with employers, but I think it's been one-sided. So you are loyal to me as an employee. I'm your employer. And we know in good relationships that power dynamic doesn't work either. If one person is expecting, and I would say maybe even toxic loyalty. I think the type of loyalty we expect within workplaces today is a little toxic. It's like... it's almost unhealthy. It makes people unwell because there is this expectation that you give 110% to an entity that is not giving you the same loyalty. So I think people are also realizing that and that was realized during COVID, which is like, oh, I have this whole other life that I've been neglecting and haven't been giving loyalty even to myself around what I needed and what my needs are.
Jason:
It is a dysfunctional relationship. There is no doubt about it. And for most people, I mean, I paint with a broad brush here, but I think there's. Overall, it's very dysfunctional. Anytime someone's demanding loyalty from you, it's a broken relationship, right? Loyalty is earned.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Jason:
Loyalty is given. It is not demanded. It's just like trust. You can't demand trust. You need to trust me. If you're telling
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
me I need to trust you, chances are, there's good reason for me not to, or at least be a little skeptical about whether I should. And so I think that's a really important piece of it. And I agree that the relationship has been very lopsided for so long. And that's, and this is, again, this is the work that I'm trying to do is that when I work with
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
organizations or work with leaders, it's like, this is about leading with relationship. That's where it starts.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Jason:
It's all about that. And so, unless we can, until we learn how to lead with relationship, be in a relationship, re-skill ourselves to earn that trust too,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
you know, when I talk about accountability is another thing everybody worries about. And it's like, well, accountability in a relationship is different because accountability in a relationship is not, it's not solely about holding someone to account. It starts with being accountable, and that's a whole different thing. And so to your point, that's the, you know, it is a one-sided thing. You better
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
be loyal to me or else it, doesn't really work. And so,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah.
Jason:
so I say all of this, I want to be very clear. Like I am not, I am not, um, I also want to be very clear that I don't believe that remote work is always the answer. I don't, I know that there are people that, for, some people, remote work doesn't work and it is really complicated for some people in some organizations. And I think there are some consequences that I'm not like, I'm one of the things I, I'd love to, I'm going to turn the table on you here for a second,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
Angela, cause I'm curious to get your take on a couple of things. Um, one is it seems to me, I mean, one of the things that's really interesting, and I talked to a few organizations that are aware of it, but nobody seems to have a good answer for, um, and I know this lives in the, the space of, of DEI is There's data that tells us that remote work seems to be working best or having sort of the most positive results in a lot of cases for those who are the most marginalized often in the workplace because they're free from or they're out of the daily microaggression environments. There are all of those
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
things. So it's a safer, it feels like a safer place to work remotely.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
So you have that existing at the same time, there's the concern about proximity bias and opportunities, learning experiences that come with in-person environment. And I'm curious, I'm curious what you're hearing and seeing around that because it feels
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
to me, like that there is a real reason to, or there is a real loss, I think, when we don't manage that with great, great intention. So I'm just curious what you're seeing around that because I haven't seen a lot of great answers for that yet.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, yeah, so you're right. The research of the data tells us that when given a choice, the folks who typically choose to stay home are usually women and people of color or people who have been marginalized historically in the workplace. That disparity is really bad. It's causing an even bigger gap if not managed. So I think... What I typically work with organizations to let them know is that we have to tackle both sides, and that's hard work. That includes tackling leadership. That includes redefining what we mean by productivity. I love the fact that you mentioned accountability, because a lot of organizations, as you know, don't have accountability structures in place. And they wonder. They think just if they say things it speaks it into existence and I'm like no we have to create reinforcement structures to make sure the system is reinforcing and incentivizing and recognizing the right things and Rejecting the wrong things and so I think building those reinforcement systems is crucial because now Productivity how people are promoted succession planning who gets into that development program? is objective and reduces as much bias as possible? Because bias is going to happen, we all have it. But are you creating structures that are going to reduce it? And then also creating opportunities that are focused on celebrating diverse identities. Because I think a lot of the typical gatherings that we have at workplaces, the happy hours, the golf outings, take people away from their families, don't celebrate people who don't drink and who don't play golf or haven't been into that ever. So I think we just, have to restructure how we gather and create human connection and make people feel celebrated in those spaces so they're more likely to enter those spaces
Jason:
Sure.
Angela Howard (she/her):
and to feel safe in those spaces. I think that's actually the first thing. We're working in a country right now where... our LGBTQ-plus community is fighting for their lives, literally, the policy is being made around their very existence. So I know I'm talking about celebrating, but I think it's just the safety. Like how are we being really safe and making people feel safe?
Jason:
Agreed. And that is such a, I mean, the one thing I think that I think you just said, and I will jump on is that this, none of this is easy. None of this is easy, but being in a good relationship with any other human being, is not easy. Relationships require work and intention and time and focus and so it is not easy work and remote makes it more complex when you throw that into the mix. So we're not, you know, as I talk about this, I want to be very, um, be very clear. I'm not suggesting any of this is easy. I think it's, I think it is challenging work, but leading people effectively has always been hard work. It requires great intention and great focus and doing things that, um, probably are not natural to you, that probably require you to learn new skills. It requires constant growth and adapting and learning. And most importantly, it requires really being in it with your people, understanding where they are, what they need, who they are. And so it's, I think this is such a And I think if you're doing that really well, that certainly helps with some of this, whether it's, you know, whether you're working, you know, fully remote or fully together or some flexible mix in the middle, um, it requires some much greater, much greater intention and focus on structures to help you not fall into these traps, right, and not miss the opportunities that are right in front of us to. to see and promote diverse talent that we probably have been overlooking traditionally. And so it's certainly there's nothing, and being in the, I guess the whole point is too, like just being in the office together doesn't automatically fix that either, much like any of these. You know, that's one of the things I find really comical about this whole thing is we're like celebrating, you know, as they talk about this, it's like we're, there's this sort of romanticized version of the office in 2019. And I'm like, hey guys, hey. The office sucked.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes,
Jason:
Most
Angela Howard (she/her):
it was a satire.
Jason:
people hated the office. Like, what are we doing? Yeah. There's a whole TV show, several TV shows and movies about how much working in the office was a soul-crushing experience. And so what are we talking about here? And so it's, it's just funny how. Cling to the past and it's right. It's known. We will always choose. We choose an uncomfortable known versus an unknown that we have no idea. what it's about or how to navigate it. So it's still
Angela Howard (she/her):
No.
Jason:
back to change resistance right at the end of the day. That's humans are pretty predictable in that way.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, we sure are. And I would love for us to continue to track this conversation, because what I don't want to see is us talking a year later, Jason, and having to have the same conversations. Because I think people are looking for this, for lack of a c better word, silver bullet, right? The five things that I can do to make my employees happy with this. remote work thing and it's really, I mean truly, it is an equity conversation. I think we don't always talk about the idea that flexibility is an equity conversation. What do you need to be successful? If that means not being in the office, then let's give people the flexibility to not be in the office. If that means giving you choice and autonomy and agency, and that's a really important part of your kind of I don't know, your work ethos, you know, and that's important for you from a value system perspective, then do that versus these, I guess, peanut butter spread policies that don't work for everyone. I think it's just, the reason why we love equality in this conversation is because it's so much easier. It's like, oh, we're doing everything the same for everyone, so no one's gonna have any social discourse. We're good. The harder thing is the equity conversation.
Jason:
It is. And I think, I think the, you know, to your point about let's not be having this conversation in a year or same conversation, I think we'll still be having the conversation. My hope is it'll just be different because
Angela Howard (she/her):
I hope so.
Jason:
I think, you know, my, my takeaway from all these conversations with folks is that we're in like the second inning of an, of a nine-inning game. Um,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Jason:
at this point, we are nowhere near the end of what, what evolution works. We're just starting to sort out what the disruption of the pandemic has done in terms of lasting impact. People, you know, three years is, is plenty of time to completely reshape people's habits and beliefs. And things have shifted. People are different. People's opinions about work are different. That has not been accounted for fully yet. The way we've learned how to work, the tools we have are different. I think the problem is we're starting at the wrong end. I think where we need to start is we need to recognize that. Every organization, every organization exists because it has a performance imperative of some sort. If it doesn't, if you don't have something to produce or some reason that you exist, then you don't need an organization. If you can't name, here's the thing we do in the world, this is what we create as an output, then you don't need an organization. So if that's the case, if we have a performance imperative, then everyone is employed to help the organization. proceed or progress towards achieving that performance imperative in whatever way we can and most effectively or however that looks. And so the conversation then, if both those things are true, then my goal as a leader should be, okay, how do I support my people? What do they need to most efficiently and effectively meet the, to play their role in helping us achieve this performance imperative? And so it's about enabling, like putting the right people in the right situations, making sure
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
they have what they need, making sure obstacles are out of their way, and stop worrying about so much about the, the how and the when and all the rest of it and trust people to, to figure out what they need, um, around that to, to get the right work done. Because when, when you also pair that up with a fundamental assumption that I have is that every human being given the means and opportunity will choose to succeed every single time.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
So if we're clear about what success looks like, and we put people in a situation where they have the means and opportunity to succeed, you don't need to manage all of these details, you just need to make sure they have the stuff they need, and they will do it, they'll get it done. That is what we are wired as humans to do. And so This is why I go back to like, why are we talk? Why do we need all this conversation about culture?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Jason:
But what role does that play in there? I don't understand. Values may be sure. Like our maybe our maybe culture is our culture is
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jason:
that we're going to help people do the best possible work they can as efficiently as they can so that we can succeed and they can thrive in their life. That's our culture. That and that's not what is being talked about when we talk about culture. And so
Angela Howard (she/her):
Right,
Jason:
I'm
Angela Howard (she/her):
yeah.
Jason:
so that is what begs the question is, why do we need a separate word for that?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Jason:
I don't know. I don't know. Maybe it should be leadership instead of culture. I think we need more leadership and less culture talk right now.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm, yeah, no, I am all for, let's just, let's name it. Let's say what we're talking about here. I do think culture, and of course, I'm a culture person, so
Jason:
I know.
Angela Howard (she/her):
I'm gonna get to defend a little bit, but I think leadership is a part of the conversation. I think it's a huge part of the conversation because the role modeling is so important, but I think it's also a bottom-up. Culture, when we think about from like a... like an anthropology perspective, it mirrors society, how humans interact. There are some things that we just know about humans and how they develop connection and culture, and that mirrors itself with an organization. So I think culture is also bottom up. And to your point, a lot of that can be enabled from a leadership perspective. If leadership is role modeling one thing or giving permission around something that's like quote unquote counterculture, people are gonna start behaving that way. So there's this kind of, there is this fuzziness to it. There is this lack of like grasping, but this kind of goes back to anthropology and that's kind of how I describe the work that I do a little bit is I'm an organizational anthropologist in a way because you're looking for like artifacts of the culture. Like what tells us that this value is to be true? Things like, you know, simple things like happy hours, right? Do we... How do we view people who don't attend happy hours? That's culture. So there's these little hints and artifacts that I think compound and I'm gonna be fair, it is really hard to measure. But it's like everything all at once. I don't know if you've watched that movie,
Jason:
Yeah.
Angela Howard (she/her):
but it's kind of like that. And that's why I love the work I do, because it's a little chaotic.
Jason:
Yeah, no, and I think, I mean, maybe the simplest way to say is that like culture to me, because I have yet to hear anyone ever define culture in a way that doesn't need to invoke values. And so
Angela Howard (she/her):
I
Jason:
culture is basically the degree to which a behavior is in alignment or out of alignment with our stated values.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Exactly.
Jason:
And so So that if that's what it is, then that's great. Let's get clear on our values then
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Jason:
like let's go there and let's make sure that we understand what that is and Values don't disappear when you leave the office
Angela Howard (she/her):
Exactly.
Jason:
Right. It's they're always there and they should always be there and it and the values should also be Central to how you achieve your performance imperative for the organization So that's why I'm kind of like the conversation or invoking culture as a reason to dictate where and how people work makes no sense to me. It's like, you're clearly not clear on your values, otherwise this wouldn't be the thing. So work on your values instead. And
Angela Howard (she/her):
Absolutely.
Jason:
then let's talk about how we enable or allow people to the flexibility to do their best work.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes, I think you've brought it full circle for us here. I think around the culture conversation, the leadership conversation, it does come back to those values. And not just the words and the values, but the behaviors. If I'm rolling a camera, what am I seeing? What am I experiencing? And then how is everything baked into the fabric of what we do? And that's what this is all about. So I am so appreciative of this conversation, Jason. I could talk to you for another three hours. on this topic and more. I'm sure we'll have the opportunity. But for those who are interested in, and again, thank you for sharing your research, the fact that you kind of solicited some thoughts from different industry leaders and HR folks, I think that is really giving us a good grounding and anchor on the state of this conversation. But if people wanna reach out to you, to work with you, where can they find you?
Jason:
Well, they can, my website's jasonlortson.com. So like I said, if you can spell my last name, you'll find it. It's L-A-U-R-I-T-S-E-N or jason at jasonlortson.com or any place on the social web. LinkedIn's my favorite, but you should be able to find me easily. Otherwise I'm terrible at my job.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Perfect, perfect. Well, we'll make sure to include all that in the show notes so people can reach out and just thank you again for your perspective, your thoughts, your time. We really appreciate you.
Jason:
It was my pleasure. Thanks for inviting me.
