Work-Life Bloom with Dan Pontefract
Angela Howard (she/her):
Dan, welcome to the podcast. We're here, we made it.
Dan:
Hi Angela, so good to hear and see you.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes, yes, it's been a long time coming and really excited to talk to you, not just about your upcoming book, but also a little bit around the origin, who you are, what you do, the impact you're looking to make on the world. So tell us, who are you, what do you do, and what's the impact you're looking to make on the world?
Dan:
So
Angela Howard (she/her):
Dan.
Dan:
it's therapy, Angela. That's what this is. We're doing some couch therapy.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Dan:
My name's Dan Pontefract. My last name in Latin means broken bridge. And if I'm being cheeky, I'm trying to be the opposite of my last name, Angela. I'm trying to build bridges. So Ponta builds as opposed to Pontefract, I guess, right?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Love that.
Dan:
I wanna see... as many people bloom as possible. And I know that is a bit self-randomizing because of the title of the book, but I've always wanted since I was a kid, I've always wanted to see people happy, like
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Dan:
gleeful, joy. I don't wanna use the word engage anymore. I don't like employee engagement. We can talk a bit about that. But as a guy, as an individual, as a human being who was kind of always captain of the sports teams, president of the student councils, leader of this, I've always been acutely aware of my purpose,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Dan:
but also how disenfranchised people are in various ways. And I'm just... Honestly, I just find that I'm here to help, which is
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Dan:
part of my purpose statement. We're not here to see through each other. We're here to see each other through. So
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Dan:
that's what I've been doing, whether it's as a direct leader in big companies like SAP and TELUS and Business Objects in academia, where I started, and now as a solopreneur company of one guy, that's kind of what my purpose in life has been, yeah.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, and all of this, I feel like, because I'm also working on my book. So I feel like when you write a book, it's kind of a manifestation of all of those things in one. Right. So tell us a little bit about the origin of the book, Work-Life Bloom, and why you decided to write it.
Dan:
Well, first of all, it keeps me married. So I'm married up, but when I'm in Denise's hair way too often, she's like, don't you need to write a book right now? So it's my fifth.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Do you want to do something else?
Dan:
Yeah, exactly. Can you just stop asking me questions about teenagers or life or
Angela Howard (she/her):
I'm out.
Dan:
building a house or whatever? So kidding aside, slightly and partially, I always have a bee in my bonnet about something. and that something is about usually has to do with organizations, leaders, people, or culture of some sort. And when we were going into the pandemic, I was just about finished a fourth book about my kind of leadership principles. And I thought, oh, I should wait till this whole pandemic thing is over. And then I was like, oh, no, I'm going to publish this. because it was scheduled to be published in the pandemic, October of 2020, I was like, I could have delayed it, but I said, no, I think this is a good time to have at least my leadership principles out there for anyone that cared. So to the 9,862 people who bought the book, there's how many people who cared about it, right?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Dan:
But that got me, like as the pandemic wore on and I was noodling a concept at the time called agency, I thought that the pandemic had given birth to this new form of agency where leaders saw themselves as beacons of delivering autonomy and empowerment and empathy in their newfound agency to their team members. And vice versa, team members sort of picked up on that ability to like, oh, yeah, I got this. Like
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Dan:
I can work from home. I can order from the local restaurant and have it delivered to my trunk. And what are like people were Anyway, what I discovered, however, by the beginning of 2021,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Dan:
is that it was all a facade.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Dan:
And then we started talking about things like, you know, RTO, return to office, RTW, which was worse, return to work. You're just like, was I
Angela Howard (she/her):
I already
Dan:
working?
Angela Howard (she/her):
do it the whole time.
Dan:
Exactly.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Dan:
So then I was like, well, the agency has to play a part in some of this somewhere, but it's more than an agency. And then the bees started circling the bonnet and there was more than one. And I started noodling these terms like work-life balance, employee engagement, and bringing your most authentic or best self to work
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Dan:
as if we don't. And it really got annoying for me in my own head. I was like, well, why do we continue to pitch these concepts? But is there an antidote? Is there something antithetical to it that I might... investigate? So that's what happened. It was Lead Care Win, it was the pandemic, it was agency, it was the beginning of 2021 and this epiphany I had, which was it's not just agency, there's more to it. And then compounded with that were these concepts like work-life balance, employee engagement, and bringing your best self to work.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm. Yeah, and I would love to hear your thoughts on work-life balance because, you know, I, and I was lucky enough and an honor to get an early copy of the book to prepare for our conversation and, you know, it struck me that you are suggesting that we move away from work-life balance. So I would love to hear more about
Dan:
Yeah, it's, I don't, I don't like the fact that I'm annoyed with the term. What I wish for and for anyone's circumstances is to have a balance between work and life. But the data, both my own data, my sort of primary research that I did around the globe, and everyone else's data. suggests highly that there really is no such thing. It's a zero-sum game. It's an idiom gone wrong. And that is if you kind of think about it, first of all, from the data staring us in the face. So if you look at since 2009 when the fiscal cliff was happening to us, the increases proportionally of levels of stress, burnout, anxiety, anger, sadness, and loneliness, they average between 10 and 44 percent, those factors, an increase in a 13-year period, roughly. And you're like, okay, well, if they've increased between 10 and 44 percent, how is there such a thing as work-life balance? Shouldn't work-life balance actually be decreasing levels of burnout, stress, anxiety, sadness, anger, and loneliness? And it's not. So we lost the plot somewhere in this, and maybe there are certain factors that we as leaders need to be thinking about that can help our people, as I say, the verb I use is to bloom, but really
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Dan:
to feel good, right? Flourishing, if you will, even, in both work and life. And because work and life have a symbiotic yet imbalanced relationship, I argue that leaders have a fiduciary responsibility to create, implement, and sustain those factors so that when people are at work, they feel good and they go home, they feel good because of their work, and then we're building up those attributes in life so that they feel good in their community and their family, et cetera, but they bring them back into work. So that was
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Dan:
the argument. And I'm sticking to it, Ange, I'm sticking to it.
Angela Howard (she/her):
I absolutely love it. I mean, one of the things that I talk about with leaders is we have a responsibility to send happier, healthier humans back to their families and their communities. This is an ecosystem we're building.
Dan:
Ecosystem, exactly. Couldn't agree more,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Dan:
couldn't agree more, yeah.
Angela Howard (she/her):
And that's kind of what your book is about. I mean, you use the analogy of, in a way, like the way I read it, right, is kind of tending to a garden, and it's something that's intentional. It's something that, you mentioned that everyone on your team may not be flourishing all at the same time. So you don't say, well, forget about Annie, who's not flourishing right now. Let me focus on the people who are. This is an ecosystem that you're building collectively. and is a sum of your ability as a leader to ensure that the life and the work part, which is kind of more integrated, I think is maybe what you're getting at. So tell me a little bit more about this idea of leadership as a responsibility, because I think this is something that I preach from the mountaintops all day, every day, and I always get the question, well, where does it stop and end, right? What is an organization's responsibility to an individual?
Dan:
You know. The thing that I've noticed going into the pandemic, and particularly within the pandemic, and if we're post-pandemic, Angela, God bless us, but let's call it this post-pandemic era, is that employees, team members, and human beings woke up and said, I want more from my life
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Dan:
than just work. Yet there's this need to still... buy peanut butter and jam for the kid's sandwiches to maybe pay rent, go on the old once-a-year holiday, get shoes. You still need to be paid by the organization. And just giving foosball tables or Boost Card Fridays or Free Fruit or the tokenism of our wellness strategy is just not enough. So I loved how you used the word integrated. And that's really what a leader has to be thinking about. They need to be thinking about the integrated ecosystem of work and life. Now, when I say life, and I don't mean chicken soup for the soul life, right? I don't mean should we have a garage sale on Sunday or, oh my gosh, interest rates are crazy. What am I going to do about my mortgage? That's not
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Dan:
the life stuff I'm talking about. I'm talking about very specific factors that can be brought. into life, into work, into life. Now,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Dan:
let me ask you a question.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Dan:
So you've read the book and basically, my point in the book among many is there's no such thing as employee engagement because that too is also a zero-sum game. And the point I'm making is that why is it that Gallup and Aon and... great place to work and blessing way, they sort of basically have had engagement scores flatline for the better part of 20 plus years. And no one's asking the question, well, maybe we go through cycles as human beings and maybe our work and our life factors change constantly because of an acquisition or we move cities or I lost my mom due to illness and now my network and my relationships aren't feeling great because I was tied into her. whatever the case may
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Dan:
be, right? And so some of these things dip. Conversely, sometimes they go up because I got promoted, I got the new budget, and the trust increased in this organization exponentially because we did something, whatever it might be. Why do you think so many leaders are fixated on engagement or employee engagement, yet maybe we should be asking a different question? Like, I'm curious, 'cause you're a... You're a well-learned, studied, educated person, and you've been looking at
Angela Howard (she/her):
I'm
Dan:
organizations
Angela Howard (she/her):
sorry.
Dan:
for a long, long time. So I'm gonna put on my Leadership Now program podcast
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Dan:
add-on and ask you, what is going on out there, Angela?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, yeah, well, this may be a little taboo, but I believe that we've actually been measuring something called loyalty. And that is actually the construct we've been measuring because I think we've tied this idea of retention and do you plan to leave in the next two years and are you committed to our brand? These are usually the questions that we ask within engagement surveys. And I would argue that we're actually measuring loyalty. And we've tied those two things together because if you're loyal, you're gonna perform for me. So I've launched many an engagement survey. I worked, before I started my own company, that's mainly what I did. And that's my hypothesis. And I think what's happening, to your point, is there has been this great reevaluation. where people are like, I am loyal to myself. An organization is a means to an end, an experience for me to contribute to my mission and my values, and at the same time, contribute to the mission and the values of an organization. But the loyalty lies within me and what I need. So that's the shift that I think we're seeing.
Dan:
I don't know how to hug you through a screen, but that's exactly what I'm getting at. Loyalty comes in the form of my two dogs. They're loyal to me because
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Dan:
we've trained them with various obedience, schools, and tactics to heal, to wait, to calm, to sit, to fetch. Like that's loyalty. So we're not training dogs in the
Angela Howard (she/her):
Right.
Dan:
organization. They're human beings. and they have emotions and they have a wide-ranging differential level of emotions and a dog, of course. I
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Dan:
love our dogs, Poppy and Cleo, shout out to the dogs.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Oh.
Dan:
But in the organization, I think what we're going through are cycles. There are weather patterns, there are four seasons, right? There are weeds. There's, so this back to your lovely opening statement about the metaphor of the garden, I too agree. that we're cultivating as leaders, we're nurturing, we're trying to fend off locusts and beetles.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Dan:
Our job is to not grow the garden for the team members, but to bring our tools from the tool shed and say, look, let me first understand what's going on in your garden box,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Dan:
right? And it might be different next year. So I'm gonna have another, I'm gonna... like many conversations with you about what's going on. Do you feel valued? Do you feel like you belong? Did something change in your life? Have your relationships taken a dive? Is there some sort of well-being factor that has played out at home that is now suddenly gaining momentum? Is there alcoholism?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Dan:
Is there weight? Is there whatever, right? Like there's just, why can't we be more humane? in as leaders with some of these conversations about work and life factors. That's what I get to, which is why employee engagement scores have remained nonsensically static for 25-plus years. And one final point, I loved your remark about loyalty, Angela. And why is that? Because some of these big firms that have been doing what you've been doing before you had your revelation
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Dan:
and epiphany to leave the employee engagement surveying stuff. As the verb says, stay, strive. Do I say good things about this company in public settings?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Dan:
Do I want to stay? And do I strive to go above and beyond the call of duty? Say, stay, strive as a measure of engagement is exactly that, it's loyalty. And so if you are quote disengaged, does that mean you're disloyal? Or does it just mean that you're going through some things in need of renewal,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Dan:
as opposed to being branded disengaged?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Absolutely, and I think the one thing that I will say Engagement Surveys have given us a tool for is listening,
Dan:
Yeah.
Angela Howard (she/her):
and to me, that's the important piece. Really, what is our value system? Are our leaders a mirror and manifestation of that behaviorally with our people? Are our people a manifestation of that with each other our customers and people we serve and our communities? That is culture. I think engagement surveys are great tools for listening. I think we have to shift it to the leadership responsibility conversation around, this is what leadership looks like here, here's what good looks like, and what we expect our leaders to do. We expect you to be more than technical managers. We expect you to care for people, if that's part of your value system, right? And then there are the organizations who say it as a part of their value system, but the words don't match the actions. Ah. Ha ha
Dan:
Ah,
Angela Howard (she/her):
ha.
Dan:
what I call Aetna. So Aetnas are all talk, no action. They talk
Angela Howard (she/her):
Exactly.
Dan:
a good game, right, about certain culture or work factors, even, you know, employees. There are single greatest assets.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Dan:
Really? Okay, then let's see this in action other than, you know, superfluous wording.
Angela Howard (she/her):
And I think the wake-up, right? The recent wake-up that we're seeing, we've got all these other buzz terms, the great resignation, which is just like the OG of disengagement, right? It's like we're talking about the same things and what people are saying is, I expect more and I've experienced more and now I have a new baseline of what I will tolerate. And organizations haven't quite caught up to that yet. So I think we're seeing this big, this gap, but I think what happens is organizations react.
Dan:
I'm not sure if you can hear
Angela Howard (she/her):
And they look over
Dan:
me.
Angela Howard (she/her):
to
Dan:
Hmm.
Angela Howard (she/her):
the
Dan:
I'm not
Angela Howard (she/her):
other
Dan:
sure if
Angela Howard (she/her):
side
Dan:
you
Angela Howard (she/her):
of
Dan:
can
Angela Howard (she/her):
the pond
Dan:
hear me.
Angela Howard (she/her):
where their competitors are implementing DE&I statements and people over profit, but they're not taking the intentional approach of understanding. what does this mean to us behaviorally, and then acting on those things? So now people are like, I have cognitive dissonance. And actually, you're making me feel unsafe because your words aren't matching your actions. I'm confused. So that's where we're at. And I think people are waking up to it, to your point.
Dan:
I couldn't agree more. Again, I need to break through this screen and hug you somewhere
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hahaha
Dan:
somehow. And that's the frustrating bit. I've been around the sun a few more times than you, and I've seen this train wreck many times over. It's just now it's hurtling towards a closed tunnel and it's not pretty. And I just feel really sad for many days because I think about my 19, my 17, and my 16-year-olds and I think, oh my
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Dan:
gosh, I love my Gen Z kids. They can annoy me as well, Angela. Let's not kid, let's not be kidding anyone. But I think about what the hell is the workplace gonna be like in five years, six years when they're out of college and adulting.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Dan:
What's that gonna feel like? So I'm here to try and find ways in which to permit as many people to bloom as possible. That's my mission.
Angela Howard (she/her):
And, and you know, I have those days of sadness too, but I also look at your kids' generation. I'm a millennial, so we're like, you know, we're kind of passing the baton a little
Dan:
Yeah.
Angela Howard (she/her):
bit. We did some work and now we're seeing Gen Z just take it. And they're like, we're doing this. We don't know about y'all millennials. You guys, it was a good start.
Dan:
Yeah, thanks.
Angela Howard (she/her):
It was a good
Dan:
Thanks
Angela Howard (she/her):
start.
Dan:
for that.
Angela Howard (she/her):
But we're doing this and we're holding organizations accountable. And if you see the data, the research, Deloitte comes out with a generational report every year, or every few years as
Dan:
Yeah.
Angela Howard (she/her):
generations start to evolve. And people of our next generation are absolutely standing in their conviction around this. And that makes me proud and also very excited for what they will do. demand from organizations. So my next question, because I love to get to action,
Dan:
Can I ask you a question?
Angela Howard (she/her):
and
Dan:
Sure.
Angela Howard (she/her):
your book is full of actionable ways to change your mindset and think about this work. If you're a leader listening to this currently, maybe you're not convinced. Maybe this is like, oh, this sounds like a little bit of fluff, or I've heard about this before, and I'm going to continue to lead the way I've been leading because it's worked for me. What are some things, they're also open to hearing new things because they're seeing the wave, the next generation come, and people being very clear about what they need and what they want. What are some ways to change your mindset and create action around this work? Around focusing on blooming and thriving from a leadership perspective, less on. engagement and performance and work-life balance and how the two are connected and are a full ecosystem. I know that was the longest question ever, but hopefully, you followed.
Dan:
I got the
Angela Howard (she/her):
Okay.
Dan:
gist of it. No, I loved it actually. And it's good context. It sets the stage for a very simple answer with some expanded thinking for leaders to contemplate that are... listening or watching today. One of the things I've noticed over the last year and a bit, to your aforementioned point about Gen Z, or shall I say Gen Z for our American friends being Canadian,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Dan:
I say Z a lot, is Reddit's anti-work discussion forum and TikTok's future work and work hashtags essentially, right? And so Gen Z, Gen Z are spending a lot of time hammering out the inanities that are going on in the workplace. TikTok's not as I guess... indefensible because you're you like you're attributed. It's not like you can kind
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm
Dan:
of make up your face and say, oh, I'm not Angela, I'm not Dan. Whereas Reddit,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Not
Dan:
you
Angela Howard (she/her):
yet.
Dan:
can hide, you can, well, yeah, right. You can hide behind a pseudonym essentially
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Dan:
in Reddit and the anti-work column. Now, what am I bringing this up for? What they're doing is they're creating a space to have a dialogue.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Dan:
And in lieu of a leader, their leader even potentially, having a dialogue with them, they're using Reddit and TikTok.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Dan:
Now, I am a masochist, so I love it. I love it because what you're getting is what I'm advocating for leaders. Now, instead of the anti-work Reddit discussion forum slash group, and instead of... the TikTokers at Gen Z, Gen Z generation, who are lamenting about
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Dan:
their work. And you've seen all the different memes from essentially Manic Mondays to Quiet Fridays to, yeah, it just goes on, right? You're like, okay, this is what,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yep.
Dan:
why are they doing this? Because they want to have a conversation. They want to have a dialogue with, if not just their direct leader and maybe the next leader, but the organization, like writ large.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Dan:
And that dialogue they want to have is it comes up to the leader not being empathetic. And so the
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Dan:
singular point is where's your empathy gene? Your empathy gene of what people go through in work and life. So are you having an open empathetic dialogue about whether they feel that they're trusted? to do the right thing? Do they
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Dan:
feel as though they again belong? Are they valued? And just these kind of work and life factors that I've articulated in the book is all about that. It's about the conversation. And then when you peel back the proverbial layer of the onion and you're not just being perfunctory and said conversation, you're actually, Angela, no, seriously, I'd like to have a conversation, not in a flyby, but let's spend a little bit of time digging into this.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Dan:
Whatever this, this issue or this opportunity or this whole or this wonderful bouquet suggests, like, how do we, if you're feeling with, if you have great agency, how can we make sure we don't lose that, Angela?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Dan:
If you're feeling deficient in several skills and you want to become a director in five years' time, well, what can I do? First of all, what are your deficiencies? How can I
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Dan:
help you assess those? And how do I help you as your leader carve a path to... to backfill those deficiencies that we both agree at this point in your skill set so that you can become a director in five years' time?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Dan:
Like the goal is not hoarding. The goal is not to cut the crop. The goal is to fill that garden box up with nutrients to allow that individual to bloom, right, to get the metaphor.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Dan:
So that's how I get it. How and what are you doing to have that open dialogue to water? to cultivate, to sow, whatever other kind
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Dan:
of analogy, you want with the garden metaphor here, with your people. And that's what I think is missing the most.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes, absolutely. And do you find that, I mean, we talk about empathy, right? I mean, that is a, and actually, maybe I'll ask you the question. Do you feel like this is a skill set that leaders are developing over time? Are people born with empathy? It's a nature versus nurture question. What do you think?
Dan:
Yes and yes.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Okay.
Dan:
So there are a rare few, but whatever percentage it is, certainly people are born with it. They're more astute. They have EQ oozing out of their heart. But what we need to do a better job of, I'd be honest, Angela, is to teach what actually empathy is. Empathy is not one thing, it's three.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Dan:
And as you know, there's cognitive, emotional, and sympathetic empathy. And cognitive, as I teach people, basically all three when I'm teaching I just say, if you can't remember those psychology terms or social scientist terms, remember head, heart, and hands. Head is cognitive empathy, it's intellectualizing what people are going through in their heads. So, whether that is, you know, the taking down of a cognitive dissonance or some sort of cognitive bias, or it's understanding where they come from geopolitically, religiously,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Dan:
Identity-wise, what are they thinking if you're male and she's a female? What if they're non-binary? Like you
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Dan:
have to kind of understand a little bit better with empathy from a cognitive perspective, what people think they're going through and having conversations about what they are thinking they're going through. And then you get to heart and heart is obviously the emotional empathy side and that's what are they feeling? What are they sensing? You know, what's going through the emotions of sadness, anger, joy, and so on? Again, as you know, sympathetic empathy, sometimes called compassion, is okay from a hands perspective, metaphorically, now you've got garden tools in your shed, bring them out. Now you've understood a little bit about the seeds and the soil.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Dan:
What are you going to do with your tools, right? To sympathize, to take action, to do
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Dan:
something about it. So head hard hands. Yes, some people are born with that. Most leaders need to be taught it.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm. Yeah, and I think the only way you could do all of those things is learning about people as humans is by listening. And if you are a leader who has built a wall between you and your team or you and the individuals on your team, you're probably not doing any of those three.
Dan:
Oh,
Angela Howard (she/her):
And so I think, yeah,
Dan:
good.
Angela Howard (she/her):
I think there's
Dan:
I'm jumping in because I get I couldn't agree more when leaders believe they've got to put on a Teflon suit
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Dan:
so that nothing sticks to them when they believe they've got to come to work wherever the work is, but not share a little bit of their humanity, not the entire kitchen sink of, you know, what's going right and wrong in their lives, but enough to sort of say I'm human to when leaders cover up a mistake. and don't discuss the tuition value of said mistake and say, hey, yeah, that was a doozy, here's what I learned.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Dan:
If they're not being vulnerable when they're a little bit nervous,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Dan:
like it's not to say that leaders are cowards and need to act cowardly, it's the opposite of that. That's actually bravery.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Dan:
And so when we're brave as leaders, we're bringing our... humanity into conversations. And I loved how you used the word we're listening or we listen because listening is an anagram for silent. So we're silent in our listening and not purporting to know it all. As Satya Nadella at Microsoft says, we need to learn it all, not know it all. So, yeah, I'm with you again. This is a great conversation. We're basically wickedly agreeing on everything.
Angela Howard (she/her):
I love it, I love it. And I do think, I think a lot about my own leadership, and I'm sure you do constantly because you're applying these concepts with the leaders you're working with, but also making sure you're role modeling them, in that sometimes I forget that as a leader, people are looking to me for permission. And when I say
Dan:
Mm-hmm.
Angela Howard (she/her):
permission, what I mean is, if I'm human, if I am being vulnerable, if I am saying, hey, I effed up, I'm giving, symbolically, that permission for my team to do that. If I'm not doing those things, there might be people who are partnering with me, who I employ, who have had a traumatic experience with a leader. And although I am expressing all of those ideas of empathy and I'm exuding that, they are still hesitant because they are healing from trauma. And so I think as leaders sometimes we say, oh, you know, well, I was in the room and I asked for feedback and nobody spoke up. I'm just gonna move on. It's like you have to remember people's baggage a little bit in
Dan:
Yes.
Angela Howard (she/her):
that you are a persona, even though you're being really kind and nice and open, you're still a persona of a leader. And if that persona of a leader in that person's mind equates to okay, I can't be real, I can't be honest because I'm going to get my hand slapped for that. It doesn't matter. So you also have to be in a place of healing too, I think as a leader.
Dan:
The fear factor is real when people believe, because they've seen it through some sort of learned helplessness in the organization, that people are
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Dan:
reprimanded for a mistake, an idea, and fill-in-the-blank other examples, right? Then you've created that learned helplessness culture and people are like, oh, I'm just gonna have to sit on my hands now because I don't wanna get whacked or I don't wanna
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Dan:
get penalized or ostracized from my
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Dan:
peers because I have been called out and like, ooh, Dan, you said that. Oh, you're gonna get grilled in an email from the boss. It's coming, wait till Friday. That's when he or she does it. That's when those things come up. What are you doing? You've been here six weeks. Don't you know by now? Like... Dan, and all of a sudden now Dan, after the six-week email comes out on that Friday is no longer a contributing team member and is just collecting a paycheck. It's
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yep.
Dan:
like, fine, I'll just mail it in and I'll just suck it up. And
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Dan:
back to your point about Gen Z and then Reddit and TikTokers, that's kind of where we're slowly, I think, getting into a bit of a demarcation point and where you have millennials and Xers and certainly boomers wondering WTF! Like there's a culture war happening
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Dan:
and I think that you and I are translators
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Dan:
for the many millennials and Gen X leaders that are out there and the work that you and I do to say because we're a bit perhaps prophetic and knowing what's about to come as well as the masses grow and Gen Z is like uh-uh. Well, yes they need a paycheck but it's going to be very difficult for good innovation, et cetera, to come if we've got a whole cohort of people who are in angst every time,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Dan:
like angry, like this is not your father's mother's company. We want it different. So
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Dan:
we got to translate. That's our job. You and I.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, no, I feel you on that. And that's how I feel pretty much daily is, we're kind of this bridge in a way to the dying and the birthing of the future of work or the future of work is here. That's the other thing I always mention to people is
Dan:
Oh my god.
Angela Howard (she/her):
we're here,
Dan:
Well, first
Angela Howard (she/her):
we've
Dan:
of all,
Angela Howard (she/her):
arrived.
Dan:
like, I think you and I have to adopt like a new last name together. Like I'm trying to be the opposite of my last name. And you're right, we're trying to build a bridge.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Dan:
And then secondly, the sort of sub-tag line I use a lot in my work is the future of work is now. Stop,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Dan:
stop talking about the future of work. Like, no, we're not talking about spaceships and AI.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Dan:
It's here that we have spaceships and AI and work is happening in the future today. So get over this whole future work stuff. It's actually right now.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Absolutely, and I think Dan, that's a beautiful bow to tie, I think, on this conversation, even though there are like nine other conversations I've pegged in my head as we have to have. I would love to talk more about the return to work, return to office, that whole conversation, but we'll save that for another episode at some
Dan:
I
Angela Howard (she/her):
point.
Dan:
love it. I can't wait to come back, Angela. Thank you so
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Dan:
much. You are an all-star. Well read, well
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Dan:
spoken, and certainly well-versed in the future of work is now.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Oh, you're amazing, Dan. And let everybody know where to find you. So if they're, you know, you're really redefining this concept of leadership. So people want more from you. Where do they find you? And then tell us more about the book.
Dan:
Probably my name is the easiest danpontefrack.com, except I don't have a very easy name. So D-A-N-P-O-N-T-E-F-R-A-C-T.com or what could be easier, get to the same spot, worklifebloom.com. And the book is again, it's a synthesis of three years of people's thoughts and ideas, and yearnings. on the factors that are going to help them to bloom. But at the same time in the research and the interviews that I did, just when I turned the, by the way, camera myself, I realized that I have been in equal parts blooming, budding, stunted, and in renewal. And that's totally okay. I have learned a lot by going through the cycles of the different personas. And that's the revelation that I got to. for many people on this planet. We can't always be engaged, and we certainly can't always be blooming.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Dan:
We gotta find ways in which to try and sustain that as often as we can.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Wonderful. Well, I for one, I'm excited to read the entire book once it's out and I have it in my hands. We'll be sure to include all the links in our show notes so folks can contract the launch of the book and get pre-orders in. And Dan, thank you so much for your time, and your perspective. It was magic. So thank you so much.
Dan:
Keep being you, Angela. We need more Angeles in this world. Thank you so much.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Thank you.
