Crafting Thriving Workplaces with Aparna Rae
Angela Howard (she/her):
Aparna, welcome to the podcast. It's so great to have you on finally.
Aparna Rae:
Thanks for having me.
Angela Howard (she/her):
This has been a long time coming. I feel like we've been talking about sharing a platform together for a while. And so I'm very excited to have you. I would love for you to just give a little bit of background. I know you and I've had some time to spend some time together in Seattle, but tell the audience who you are, what you do, and what impact you're looking to make on the world.
Aparna Rae:
Oh, just that, what's the impact I'm looking to make in the world? Well,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Just a small question, nothing
Aparna Rae:
just a
Angela Howard (she/her):
too hard.
Aparna Rae:
no big deal. Well, my name is Aparna, and Aparna Ray, founder of a strategy practice based here in Seattle, Washington called Moving Beyond that I started three and a half years ago and have been writing the post-George Floyd. the wave of more and more organizations wanting to do DE&I work. And the thing that I focus on, and that you and I bonded over, when we became friends via LinkedIn,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Aparna Rae:
what was and is data-informed equity work? Not relying on gut instincts, not chasing whatever the sexy new thing is, but really thinking about the state of our organizations and building solutions that are right-sized. My background is in education. I was a public school teacher. I was a lecturer in teacher education programs and did a bunch of work in sort of workforce development before finding my way here. So I feel like a lot of what I do and how I lead in this work is... very much like that first profession, my very first career as an educator in building good habits around learning.
Angela Howard (she/her):
that and
Aparna Rae:
Yum.
Angela Howard (she/her):
the impact you're looking to make on the world is aligned with that mission that you just talked about and habits and behaviors and learning.
Aparna Rae:
Yeah, it's, you know, this is it's a really good question because I think if you had asked me even six months ago, what was the impact that I was looking to make in the world, I would have had a different answer. But I think this summer, I have really been sitting with the need for a future of work that's perhaps less informed by technologies that can aid us but much more informed by relationships and well-being and happiness
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Aparna Rae:
and I honestly like the work that I want to keep doing to be an advocate for labor. I think at the end of the day when I look at my career trajectory, a lot of it has been fighting to make sure that no one's labor is devalued to a point where they're living in poverty. And I think it's something that I spend a lot of time thinking about. something that I spend a lot of time advocating with my clients about. How do we, you know, like, what is, what is DEI inside of an organization where two-thirds of your employees are living in poverty? I just don't know that there is a world in which we can say we were doing equity work or justice work and have such vast class differences inside organizations.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, and that makes me think about... how perhaps we're not quite looking at DE&I collectively as a community, you know, DE&I practitioners, people who are within organizations. The one thing that I see quite often is this just like, let's carve out this program called DEI and do all the things to demonstrate we're doing DEI without the
Aparna Rae:
Mm-hmm.
Angela Howard (she/her):
contextual systems work. When I say systems work, I mean within the organization, but also socially, which I think is coming to your point around the intersection between social impact, social justice, and the workplace, which really gets me excited because that's a lot of the work that we do at Call for Culture. And again, it's the reason why you and I bonded and had some time to really talk through and visualize what a future of work could look like. So I guess I'm skirting around a question, which is, what are some things that you're seeing that companies and leaders are getting wrong about this?
Aparna Rae:
Oh, what am I seeing that people are getting wrong about this? Well, you know, I think you said it right, like contextual systems work. The work that's happening right now is its design. It's designed to fail.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Aparna Rae:
It's so when I was a public school teacher, there would be an activity that would happen every year in the elementary school where, you know, the art teacher would make these. totem poles made out of toilet paper or paper towel, like the blank rolls, right? And it was this lesson on indigenous cultures without really ever diving deep into who indigenous people are, like where they live, right? That
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Aparna Rae:
we have indigenous folk all over the world, right? It's not specific to the US or Canada, right? Also like... India and Australia
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Aparna Rae:
and New Zealand. And I feel like the way in which I see DE&I work happening is akin to the toilet paper totem poles where we're making a nod to something without ever digging into what it is and things that folks are getting wrong. I mean, I have a laundry list, but I'll give you my favorites, right?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Aparna Rae:
using employee engagement surveys or inclusion surveys as fact, rather than a moment-in-time view of how people are thinking and feeling. Employee resource groups and DEI councils are being asked to come up with an org-wide strategy and programming when they actually have no expertise in the functional areas. that a practitioner needs, which I would say, you know, are learning and development, strategy, people analytics, right, like you have folks who are passionate about equity work or whatever they think equity work is and are being asked to make decisions on behalf of an organization that should quite frankly be hiring people that have functional expertise. Too many consultants. And I say this knowing that you and I are also consultants. Why are you hiring consultants when you should be doing two things, which in my mind are building the capacity of everybody in your organization to work with an equity lens? And the second is to have dedicated staff to make this work sticky inside. your organization, in particular, when organizations are not listening to what their employees are saying, but instead bringing in consultants who say essentially the same thing. And lately, I've also been sitting with the fact that you know, with several of our clients and customers, like we, as consultants make more than employees inside of their organizations for doing a 10th of the time, right?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm,
Aparna Rae:
Like we're coming into
Angela Howard (she/her):
yes.
Aparna Rae:
organizations, spending 10 hours a month with them and making more than what a full-time employee makes in a similar role.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Wow, yeah, that's a, it's an interesting point because I think it speaks to a few things. One is the lack of trust and the lack of honoring of experiences of employees at lower levels within the organization. I hear a lot of times when I'm talking to leaders, to executives, it's kind of this mentality of, oh, that's just so-and-so or so-and-so's group. They've had a grudge for years.
Aparna Rae:
Mm-hmm.
Angela Howard (she/her):
And as you said, they're hiring us to come in to basically tell you the same thing. And the capacity and the capability conversation is so important. Because when we work with our clients, we tell them upfront, we are not actually doing the work. We're gonna guide you through you know what this could look like but we need to coach you and coach you up as we go because we want to work ourselves out of a job.
Aparna Rae:
Mm-hmm.
Angela Howard (she/her):
We don't want to be with you for years and years and a lifetime. We want you to be self-sufficient and sustainable and a lot of times we lose business because of that
Aparna Rae:
Yeah.
Angela Howard (she/her):
because they're like I just want you to do the thing and it's like it doesn't work that way. Doesn't work that way.
Aparna Rae:
Yeah,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah.
Aparna Rae:
I want you to do the thing. I also want to say it has its, there is a race element and a class element to that as well. We're both women of color doing this work, you know, so I think my perspective certainly is in my identity of
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Aparna Rae:
in the United States being a person of color. Even though where I'm from, which is India, I would never identify myself as a person of color, right? Like where you're
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Aparna Rae:
from, you would never identify as a person of color, we're just people, and we're part of the majority.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Aparna Rae:
And I feel like because so many of the decision-makers are ultimately gonna sign off on the contracts and the scopes of work. For them, I'm the help.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mmm.
Aparna Rae:
And this is part of dealing with the legacy of race and systemic oppression in this context, right? In the context of the United States. And also, I suppose like other predominantly white, high-income countries where, because women that have looked like me and looked like you up until 30, 40, 50 years ago were only allowed. We're only allowed to be in helping professions. That legacy is strong. And so it's not only is it, I want you to do what I'm asking you to do, but it's also, how dare you? How dare you say something else? How
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Aparna Rae:
dare you have an opinion? How dare you think you're an expert?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm. So why do you think, because I really resonate with what you're saying, because I've heard those words in so many words, right? Like we wanted to know the truth, but not like that. Or we thought you were going to recommend training or something. Now, we're not asking for that. And it's it seems like an exhausting position to be in. So I feel, anyone who's listening to this and is in the DEI community, who is doing the work, I mean, really doing the work, right? We're working with systems within organizations, working within social systems to make a change. It's exhausting. So why are organizations hiring us? Why do we see this uptick in demand, but a low level of commitment?
Aparna Rae:
Mm. Yeah. Why do we see an uptick in demand but a low level of commitment? I think Because white folks and people with privilege, that doesn't necessarily have to be from their racial identity, they wanna look good, they wanna feel good about themselves. But I think at the end of the day, whether it's understood or spoken, fundamentally, they understand that a world that is more equitable, a world that is more inclusive, and where we're not beholden to rules of professionalism that overvalue white identities, white hair, white ways of dressing. Well, in that world, they get to have less power. I mean, just think of the simple fact, if organizations promoted people relative to who is entering into frontline roles inside of their organizations. the corner offices, and the boards of directors, those spaces would look really different. Those spaces would actually look really different. And so we're playing a game in which the odds are already stacked for the other side because the other side knows that if things were in fact equitable, they would lose. Now, what I see happening, and this is where, you know, I so, so want for better analysis and better sort of consciousness with our colleagues that are people of color is organizations will fly there, you know, equity flag. They're going to come out and say, well, of course, we care about this. Of course, we want to, you know, like you're important to us as our employees, as our customers, as our community. And people of color start to think, oh, like, thank you. Like, you heard me.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Aparna Rae:
And two or three years go by and nothing has changed. And in many instances, they've left. They've left. And the cycle kind of, you know, repeats itself, right? Where they're not really committed to changing. They don't actually want the C-suite to look different. They're not gonna name people to the board of directors that are... truly diverse across so many identities.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Aparna Rae:
They wanna look good.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm. So it's a perception. Well, we talk about performative DEI quite a bit, and I think we've you know what I've witnessed and it aligns with what you've observed is there's usually like some kind of event that jolts us,
Aparna Rae:
Mm-hmm.
Angela Howard (she/her):
you know, awake as a nation,
Aparna Rae:
Yeah.
Angela Howard (she/her):
as a country, as a state, as a, you know, whatever it is, or something that happens or we say, oh, yeah, racism exists.
Aparna Rae:
Mm-hmm.
Angela Howard (she/her):
George Floyd being murdered is one of those instances that I think is more prominent culturally in the US, but there are many others. And it is kind of this cycle, this curve, right? Where things rev up and then they just, and now you've got the backlash that we're seeing around DEI. So how do we disrupt that cycle? I mean, I truly, like I, I'm really asking this question not from just a host perspective, but I would love for us to find some common ground as a DEI community around what we should and should not do to make sure we don't end up in that cycle again. So
Aparna Rae:
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Angela Howard (she/her):
what are your thoughts? Maybe you don't have the answers, but what are your thoughts?
Aparna Rae:
what we should and should not do. Well, I think, okay, let's start with what we should do. I think we should be investing in upscaling ourselves.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Aparna Rae:
I think that we should be building skills around data literacy. You don't have to learn how to build dashboards, but you need to learn how to read them. You need to learn how to ask questions. And I think that in my mind, it's not dissimilar to knowing how to build budgets and read P&Ls. If you're going to be in a leadership role in any organization, you have to do that. And so I would say, like, how do we start to skill up? Um, what should we do? I think that we should be having more honest conversations with our clients. And I and I think that if more consultants were willing to do it, what the client is asking for is gonna shift.
Angela Howard (she/her):
And also
Aparna Rae:
You
Angela Howard (she/her):
internal
Aparna Rae:
know.
Angela Howard (she/her):
clients, or internal consultants too, right? So talking to chief diversity officers, all of the new titles that have popped up, I think the relationship is the same, where you're kind of an internal consultant, maybe you're speaking with the CEO or the C-suite. But
Aparna Rae:
Yeah.
Angela Howard (she/her):
the same thing applies, I think, internally too, to your point.
Aparna Rae:
Yeah. What should we not be doing? I think that that's... That feels really hard, I think, to name because when I've named some of the things that we shouldn't be doing, the pushback that I've gotten from the community of practitioners is, well, I'm just out here trying to make money. Or
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm
Aparna Rae:
why should I not be able to leverage this moment in time? In my mind, the thing that we shouldn't be doing is having a training-only-based approach to how we engage clients. We know that it causes more harm and it causes more harm to people of color in the long run. So why are we doing it? And when I talk about it, people will say, well, you know, I'm allowed to make a living. Great. Absolutely, you're allowed to make a living. And then what is the ethical or moral bar for practitioners? Yeah, I mean, what should we not do? If you are white identifying and you don't in fact have functional expertise, you shouldn't be doing this work.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Aparna Rae:
And also for white adjacent folks, right? I've seen an uptake in South Asian practitioners in this work. When I went to grad school to study decolonizing pedagogy in 2007, I did not have any South Asian colleagues that were interested in having these conversations. When I... came into the workforce for the second time in 2009 in the middle of an economic recession, wrought upon us by essentially white men in positions of power. No, like South Asians were not part of the mix. They were not willing to have the conversation. And I've noticed that I'm not gonna speak about any other communities of color, right? Except the one that I'm a part of. All of a sudden in the last three to five years, there's... a large community of corporate DE&I professionals that are South Asian women whose backgrounds are in law and engineering and marcom. And I want to know, like, why are you here? Why are you here? Have you done the work? Have you gone and unlearned? everything that our culture teaches us about people from like, places and spaces, right? Like, what
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Aparna Rae:
do we value? I mean, anti-Blackness is really deep in the South Asian community. Like, we're an incredibly, like, culturally, there's a lot of xenophobia. There
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Aparna Rae:
are lots of class dynamics where it's not uncommon for people to literally come out and ask you how much money you make because they're trying to place whether you're a person that's worth knowing.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Aparna Rae:
What do your parents do? What's your last name? Where did you study? Right? Constantly trying to place your class identity. And so I want like, I want
Angela Howard (she/her):
Interesting.
Aparna Rae:
other practitioners to ask themselves, like, am I the right person to be doing this work?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, and I think that's really, really where this work needs to go. And I sometimes. I sometimes play around with the idea of just deconstructing it all, right? Like, I know DEI is a buzzword and you and I know what it means because we've studied it, we've researched it, we've done the work, we've applied the work, and also we are we are unlearning and learning as we go. But I mean, what are your thoughts on that topic of just throwing it all away and maybe, I don't know, calling it something else? Because my fear is that rather than us getting to the change that needs to happen, the mindset shift, the behavior shift, we love to just slap on a title, and then that becomes an industry. And once it becomes
Aparna Rae:
Mm-hmm.
Angela Howard (she/her):
an industry, Now it's in the ecosystem of capitalism. And now, yes, of course, you're going to get people who are trying to capitalize on it. So what are your thoughts on that?
Aparna Rae:
I mean,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Throw it in the trash. No.
Aparna Rae:
I burn it, burn
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah.
Aparna Rae:
the trash, but I don't know that supports, you know, our climate crisis. So maybe bury
Angela Howard (she/her):
Sure.
Aparna Rae:
the trash, make less trash. But yeah, I'm 100%. You know, like, yeah, let's throw it out. What are other ways of working? Who are the people that we, you know, quite frankly, should be learning from? And there are so few. readers and lessons from corporate D&I that I'm excited by. Because it's just, it's Cosmo Girl capitalism, you know? It's that, it's the shiny kind of Barbie plastic ways of working. Some of the things that I've been reading and I felt, I felt... inspired aren't even the right word, right? It's almost like in my soul, I felt resonance with Against White Feminism by Raffia Zakaria. She's a Pakistani-American academic and I've now read her book a couple of times and every time I read it, I come back to it and you know, she talks about how white feminism isn't just something that's embodied by white women, it's also that women of color, like we've started to own it, and how we've been so quick to do away with the resilience and the lessons that our ancestors, like our moms, our grandmothers have to teach us. Just because they don't have a job outside of the home doesn't mean that they're not empowered women, right?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Aparna Rae:
I've been really leaning into some of those ideas. Of course, I think, Adrienne Murray Brown and her work and her scholarship of Octavia Butler's ideas around building community and building community doesn't have to be woo, right? Because Octavia Butler's, so many of her books are about the community that advances science, that community that advances.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Aparna Rae:
being able to live on this planet for many more years, many more generations, reading the work and scholarship of Deepak Bhargav, who recently wrote an article on deliveries. And he writes about how the left and the right are not very different. And it's something that I've been sitting with for a couple of years where I'm like, well, the economic policies and their impact aren't actually very different, there's a Democrat or Republican in the White House.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Aparna Rae:
And so what does it mean to be progressive? And in the article, there's one sentence that's really stayed with me. And he talks about how there's never been, never before have there been so many people with a title organizer and never. has there been a moment where foundations have funded organizing, but with so little actual organizing happening, right?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Aparna Rae:
So people have the title, and people are throwing money at the concept of organizing, but very little organizing is actually happening. And so, yeah, how do we shift into the mindsets and habits and behaviors of organizers and activists that are interested in building community? And I don't mean chief. I don't mean paying five, seven,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Aparna Rae:
ten thousand dollars to be in an elite network. But how are we building communities? And I, as a woman of color in the U.S. context, I think about where, where are my peers. Where are my sisters? They're not like urban professionals making six-figure salaries.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Aparna Rae:
they are frontline workers. And so is the work that I'm doing, is that having a positive impact on their lives? Am I in the community with them? And am I in relationship with them? Do I know what their lives are like? And I think the
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Aparna Rae:
answer for most of us, six-figure earning, women of color, urban, like intellectual progressive types, we're not in those communities.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Aparna Rae:
We don't know the reality and the lived experiences of somebody who is, you know, like a public school teacher or a nurse or working in a grocery store. And we need to.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm. Yeah, it's really what I'm realizing is two things. One is. Getting getting back to the community and really not just observing, but. Emerging ourselves and in the people we claim to serve. And the other piece, I think, is really around this idea. Naming the issues. You know, I think if we did a better job at actually naming the issues within, let's say, the workplace, right? How do we address systemic racism at work? That's an issue that would take probably a community of people to solve and focus on. Focusing on how we become an organization that is responsible in the communities where we build. for example, that's an issue
Aparna Rae:
Mm-hmm.
Angela Howard (she/her):
to focus on. I would love to hear more of that versus the big DEI, the umbrella of all the things that sound, I don't know, around social impact or progressing the workplace from a cultural, like I would love to hear us just name the issues.
Aparna Rae:
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Angela Howard (she/her):
And because I think when we, bucket everything under DEI, it does become an industry, just like wellness, right? Wellness is its own industry, which also ties into social issues. So yeah, what you just said, it really hits home for me.
Aparna Rae:
And what are the decisions that we would make, quite frankly, if people and community were at the heart of problem-solving, for instance? You know, and I think about it, you and I both have some experience working in foundations, right, in big private philanthropy. And I... And I think about this all the time with the Gates Foundation literally being in my backyard if the foundation was really interested in solving the education crisis, right? Like if they were really interested in making sure that there was education equity. what choices would they make? Because of the choices that they're making today, right? Whether that is Bill Gates paying to sway the vote and introducing charter schools in the state of Washington or, you know, prioritizing technology-based solutions to, you know, math and literacy. These are not the choices that get Black and brown and poor kids into better colleges and into better-paying jobs. They just don't, you know. So, and
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Aparna Rae:
the same I think is true in companies as it relates to employee experience, right? Like, what if we prioritized happiness? What if we prioritized well-being? What if the measure was... um, fewer people suffering from heart disease. I mean the fact that engineers, particularly
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Aparna Rae:
men in and around 40 years old are the fastest growing demographic of people suffering from heart disease that's wild to me.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Aparna Rae:
Why are 40-year-old men getting heart attacks? What if, right, like what if the DEI bar for success at Amazon was... fewer engineers having heart attacks?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Aparna Rae:
What if the bar is fewer people's partnerships, and marriages, disintegrating?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Aparna Rae:
Like, why is it that every time Microsoft ships a major product, a third of the people working on it are on the path to breakups and divorces?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mmm. Absolutely. Yeah, let's, as I said, throw it all away. Just
Aparna Rae:
Throw it all away.
Angela Howard (she/her):
reconstruct it, reconstruct it. And I think this goes back to, and I'll kind of tie the bow on this, even though I feel like you and I can, first of all, I learn so much from you every time I talk to you. And two, we could probably go off into a million different topics, but I'm bringing it back to data because I think people listening might be thinking, oh my gosh, you're talking about some really meaty issues, the whole point of data and using it as a tool is to help you narrow in on those issues and help you name the issues that you can then address and solve. And so I think what I'm landing with is its underlying the importance of having a data-centric approach as a tool, also
Aparna Rae:
Yep.
Angela Howard (she/her):
listening to the people that you are saying. saying you're serving
Aparna Rae:
Mm-hmm.
Angela Howard (she/her):
and then using those two things together to identify what the issues are. DEI I think is just too broad. We need to really
Aparna Rae:
Mm-hmm.
Angela Howard (she/her):
identify what are the issues, let's name them,
Aparna Rae:
Mm-hmm.
Angela Howard (she/her):
and then we can work on systems, tactics, decisions, policies, behavior change, and mindset change to move in that direction. So that's where I landed. Where did you land? What are some things that you're leaving with today?
Aparna Rae:
Yeah. Yeah, so here's where I am at this moment we need the data to know what's happening. But we need the relationships
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Aparna Rae:
to believe that it's true.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm. Yes, absolutely. I love that just powerful statement. Aparna, I always learn something new from you, so thank you so much for taking
Aparna Rae:
Same,
Angela Howard (she/her):
the time.
Aparna Rae:
same.
Angela Howard (she/her):
And you'll have to come back because I think all these things are highly contextual in the context of what's happening in the world. And so I bet you a month from now, we'd probably have a different conversation, but just so relevant and... actionable. Thank you for your time.
Aparna Rae:
Thanks for having me.
