Great mondays with Josh levine
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hey, Josh, my friend, how are you?
Josh Levine:
I'm great, how are you, Angela?
Angela Howard (she/her):
I'm good, it's good to see you again.
Josh Levine:
Yes,
Angela Howard (she/her):
And
Josh Levine:
thank you.
Angela Howard (she/her):
thanks for taking the time to share your wisdom.
Josh Levine:
I pushed everything out of the way. This is the priority.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Oh my gosh, so we, for those of you listening, had to cancel this recording like four times
Josh Levine:
Yeah
Angela Howard (she/her):
on both sides and so the fact that we're here, I'm like, I don't care if there's like a
Josh Levine:
Yeah.
Angela Howard (she/her):
hurricane coming through my house like we're gonna make this happen.
Josh Levine:
Yeah,
Angela Howard (she/her):
I'm gonna
Josh Levine:
exactly.
Angela Howard (she/her):
be on my phone or like in a corner with my podcast recording equipment. So we're here, we made it. Josh,
Josh Levine:
Okay.
Angela Howard (she/her):
I mean, I know who you are, but tell everyone who you are, what you do, and also just a little bit about your origin story.
Josh Levine:
Yeah.
Angela Howard (she/her):
because you and I are in a similar space around culture, so I would love to
Josh Levine:
Yeah.
Angela Howard (she/her):
hear how you got here.
Josh Levine:
Well, I would say similarly passionate about culture, right?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Josh Levine:
That's, I think our, that's our connection. So my name is Josh Levine. I teach, write, and talk about company culture as a strategic advantage in business. That's a lot of buzzwords, but what that means is I believe that culture is not just something that can happen to you in your organization or to an organization, but something that you can actually design for and actually manage. And so I have my, I will ask my clients what success looks like for any engagements. And I will tell you that success for me, I have realized in the past couple of years is when we are able to see that a good number, maybe a majority of businesses in North America start to talk about building a department or organization that is there to build, design, and manage company culture. And that is, and it could be because I am. deeply, I deeply believe that culture is such a powerful asset in business that it needs to be given the space and the resources, just like your technology group, just like your finance group, just like your ops, just like your product, right? Like all of those things, it, those are defined in groups and departments because it's a, it's a specialty. And so That for me is what success is. I want to be able to start to see this being taken in. And I will tell you as part of my origin story, I actually started in brand
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Josh Levine:
as a designer, a graphic designer, and brand designer, and then became a brand strategist. So I was a good graphic designer, but I became a brand strategist because I was able to connect with people and help articulate ideas. And so when I think about the evolution of business. When I was in design school, everybody was talking about convincing businesses for design to have a seat at the table. A seat at the table, seat at the table.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Sounds familiar.
Josh Levine:
Yes, exactly. And when I was in school, when I graduated from art school, and design school, the best designers wanted to go to the private agencies that were doing cool work. And then if you were like a B, C tier designer, you would go inside of an organization. Now, it's not to say there weren't great designers that inside of organizations, but that was kind of the story,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Josh Levine:
right? If you're awesome, you're gonna go work for the design agencies doing the best work. Well, now, 10 years ago, actually, 10, 15 years ago, it switched and... So I started, I was in the Bay area and all of the best designers got jobs at companies inside of the Facebook of the world. And so it was like the Facebooks and the Googles and the Airbnbs a little bit later and the Pinterest and all that. Those were the organizations that were hoovering up all of the designers and they had built design orgs inside. And so that transition, that's what I want to see for culture. Now, now. Before it was, there was a desire by organizations to hire agencies to do design and brand work. And I don't, we're not even there yet with culture. And that's where I'm trying to position myself. I think you're trying to position yourself. Hey, we see this need and we wanna be there.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Thanks for
Josh Levine:
And
Angela Howard (she/her):
watching!
Josh Levine:
so that's, we wanna help you. And that is what we're looking for. But ultimately, I wanna be able to see more organizations bring this in as a capacity. So that's me, that's really kind of my vision for this. That's what I was hoping for. Now, the, to sort of rejoined or rejoined the, the end of that story, how did I move from brand into culture, right? I don't have a degree in org design. I don't have a degree in HR.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
The reason why is because in my work as a brand strategist, I saw that we were asked to created these brands, what we'll call brand promises that are articulated
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Josh Levine:
verbally and visually. And that's great, that's powerful, but there was a big gap, and the gap was actually delivering on these brand promises, which is they couldn't do it very well, and the people who needed to deliver on those are the employees. And so I thought, and we had done, with the agency that I was with, we had done some internal work, and I thought that's the kind of work that I feel like has a big impact,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Josh Levine:
and... there's a big need for it. There's not a lot of companies working on this. I didn't know it was called culture at that point, but that's what I was thinking of. And I was like, that's what I want to work on is helping folks deliver on that brand promise. And so I was able to port a lot of my skills, storytelling, facilitation, writing, and design in service of actually articulating those stories and getting them instead of it being in brand where you have the figure out what the story is and then you tell the world, you figure out the story is. and then you're able to engage your employees. And so really
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Josh Levine:
it's two sides of the same coin. So that's where that's the kind of the TLDR
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hehehe
Josh Levine:
of how Josh got into the culture by being a graphic designer.
Angela Howard (she/her):
I love it because I come from a more org design, psychology, and HR background. And so I'm coming from the other side where one of the first groups that I would engage, like if I was a CHRO at an organization, was marketing.
Josh Levine:
Mmm.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Because
Josh Levine:
Mm-hmm.
Angela Howard (she/her):
I understood that we're actually doing the same work but
Josh Levine:
Yep.
Angela Howard (she/her):
maybe to slightly different audiences, right?
Josh Levine:
No, exactly.
Angela Howard (she/her):
And so... That is just such a key overlap and I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you made it because it's sorely needed to activate
Josh Levine:
Yeah.
Angela Howard (she/her):
this, what we call core values or brand promise or employment
Josh Levine:
Yeah.
Angela Howard (she/her):
value proposition. There are many names for it. Why are we so slow to get to the... the same point as like finance or operations. Why is it taking so long?
Josh Levine:
I mean, it maps almost perfectly to kind of the S-curve adoption rate of different aspects of a business. And so if you think about 30, 40 years ago, we were going to look at what was the edge? What was the competitive advantage? And that was going to be quality assurance. And then you kind of got into the Six Sigma management. And so people would adopt that, organizations would adopt that and have that advantage until everybody else adopted it. Right. And this is the
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Josh Levine:
the ideal of, I mean, capitalism, this is one of the benefits of competition is having. So now we've got these S-curves and so you're kind of going through it and it's like, okay, now there's sort of, you saw the technology S-curve, right, of like digital transformation,
Angela Howard (she/her):
digital.
Josh Levine:
right? And so we're far enough along that most organizations mostly like banks kind of UX are kind of coming around, but, um, the government is kind of the last on right. Laggards. So then I'll have that incentive. So technology, um, innovation, we're still kind of crack, right? You've got kind of that. And then design became really important. The brand became really important first. Right? So how do you tell a story in a constructed way that people can remember in their minds? Right? So you're the first, you know, the first brand that comes to mind. So when I say electric vehicle, what is, what comes to mind? What, what brand do you hear? Do you see
Angela Howard (she/her):
I hate to say it but Tesla.
Josh Levine:
Tesla? Right. So when I started saying, asking that question, it was Prius. And
Angela Howard (she/her):
Oh,
Josh Levine:
then
Angela Howard (she/her):
yeah,
Josh Levine:
one day I asked
Angela Howard (she/her):
yep.
Josh Levine:
that question, everybody said Tesla. And I was like, oh crap, right. You're totally
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yep.
Josh Levine:
right.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
And guess what? In another year. 18 months, 12 to 18 months, maybe it's not Tesla anymore. Right,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Josh Levine:
maybe it's a Rivian, maybe it's, I don't know, right? So that's the brand. And then you've got design being sucked up because of the advent of the internet and you've got these websites as tools. And oh my gosh, if we create a better user experience, it's a better product. And so now you have design. And so, you still have folks that are on the leading edge. So Airbnb, as I mentioned before, has great product design. Right? Really, they have so many designers working on every little thing. And it's really decent, it's a really good experience, right? And there are some that are not as good, but you're kind of getting there. It's like, you know, it's like Airbnb. Avis also needs a good design, right? So now you've got this piece. Okay. So we're talking about the S curve and
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
building and building and building. Now we're thinking about what are the... Like how do I start to, you know, continue to be like, what's my advantage? How do I win over my competitors? And one of the ways of thinking about where we are is, Oh, talent.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Josh Levine:
Talent is really important, right? We need creative people and we need the best people. We need smart people. So I don't know if you remember, but many years ago, Google put a billboard up on the two 80. on the way down to Silicon Valley. And it was a crazy math problem. And if you solved it, you could get an interview.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Josh Levine:
So that's like
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
talent. They're looking for the best of the best. But you are also thinking about, how you bring and attract and keep these people if you don't have a wallet, Facebook, or Google Wallet. Like if you don't have that much. So what is it that's going to get people there and
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Josh Levine:
keep them engaged? And how do I find the right people anyways? And so when we're thinking about talent, if you just go, okay, I'm gonna get the best, all the valedictorians or whatever it is, or hire only from this like one amazing college, right?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Josh Levine:
So again, Silicon Valley, Stanford, it's like there's that shortcut, like that mnemonic of like, Stanford is like the best people. But those people may not stay, they may not be engaged, it may not be fit, you may, you know, may go somewhere else. And so what you really are looking for is a way to find the right people who want to join your organization to believe in that mission and achieve those things. And you want to establish a set of rules and expectations so that they can succeed better.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Josh Levine:
And so culture is becoming this really compelling and powerful, what I call the only sustainable competitive advantage. And the reason is because talent can be taken, they can leave, right? You absolutely can either go on your own, you know, whatever, because you want it, you gotta hide
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
away or whatever it is. But if you're able to articulate a culture that helps people understand why they should choose you and then engage and do their best work, then it's a benefit, not just for the company, but it's a benefit for the employee and it's a benefit for the customer. And so now you have this kind of triple threat of benefits. If you invest in culture, you're actually, you're investing further up the food chain, I guess, maybe if we're
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
looking at like, you know, the value prop. Now it means it's a little harder to get going and it's a little harder to see. There's not like an immediate turnaround, like
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Josh Levine:
sell harder and this quarter, you're gonna see the price jump, right? But it's like with culture, that's a long-term play. And so when you are thinking about how to bring these people in, how to get the best people you want that edge and you want them engaged and you want them to be able to be successful. I wanna know what it's like to be here. And you know what? We need to get people up and running faster. You need those set of rules that you need to articulate what it is that you're expecting of people. And so now we're seeing this kind of uptick on the S curves. People and organizations are starting to understand and adopt the culture. as a way to succeed in the market.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes, and I think that it also is just a way for you too, I mean, for lack of better words, it's a way for you to find your people, right? And it creates
Josh Levine:
me.
Angela Howard (she/her):
clarity around the experience within the organization. And I think what I'm finding with some organizations is a lot of people have core values. They're beautiful. They're plastered on a wall somewhere or in a booklet or on their website. but they haven't done the work to activate those values within the organization operationally, which I think is what you're talking about, these norms, these behaviors.
Josh Levine:
Yeah.
Angela Howard (she/her):
And that takes, first of all, you're 100% of the time asking the system to change a little bit,
Josh Levine:
No.
Angela Howard (she/her):
because you're saying this isn't just lip service anymore, this is how
Josh Levine:
Mm-hmm.
Angela Howard (she/her):
we function, and we're being clear about that. And the one thing that, you know, I'm not a huge fan of Elon Musk, as you could tell, because I was like, Tesla,
Josh Levine:
Aw, Tesla.
Angela Howard (she/her):
ugh.
Josh Levine:
Yeah.
Angela Howard (she/her):
But I will give him the fact that he's been very clear about the culture he's building at his organization, right?
Josh Levine:
Mm-hmm.
Angela Howard (she/her):
So
Josh Levine:
Yep.
Angela Howard (she/her):
now people who are in line with that from a values perspective can join, and those who cannot join. I mean,
Josh Levine:
Yeah, they can leave
Angela Howard (she/her):
that
Josh Levine:
or
Angela Howard (she/her):
clarity
Josh Levine:
they don't join.
Angela Howard (she/her):
is
Josh Levine:
Yeah.
Angela Howard (she/her):
so key.
Josh Levine:
And the clarity
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah.
Josh Levine:
and that clarity needs to continue in your day to day
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Josh Levine:
as well, right? Like what is expected of me here? What is most important?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Josh Levine:
What should I be prioritizing?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Josh Levine:
Now, what I will say is that we're at this kind of uptick of that S curve
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
and what... when people come, I don't know when clients show up to your door, but the majority of clients come, and will call when they're in crisis. Right? So that's the forcing function. They have had some sort of culture crisis, some press thing, or pressure, we can call it pressure. So often, a number of times or have a mandate to grow, you know, another two times in the
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
next year. Right. And so you're like, what does that
Angela Howard (she/her):
I'm sorry.
Josh Levine:
mean? How do I find those people? Who do I want? And how do we make sure that our culture is the kind of culture that we want? Because you might start hiring if you start hiring and you're
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Josh Levine:
like, Oh, you came from this company. And then this person's like, you should hire these people. And all of a sudden you've got 20% of your workforce coming from this other kind of culture because that's how they worked.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Josh Levine:
And so we've got these forcing functions, getting people onto that S-curve. But I think what I try to do on my podcast is have culture leaders articulate the value of culture in their lives and how they've used it so that I can spread that story further and say, hey, culture is really powerful. Here's the success. Here's the business benefit. Here is how it happens. And so to me, that's what I'm trying to do is get more people up on that
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
curve. So it's not just crisis time,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Josh Levine:
right? It's like before the crisis hits. And
Angela Howard (she/her):
Right, yeah.
Josh Levine:
that way we can, it is a lot more effective, a lot easier to implement your culture before it becomes a crisis.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
It's a lot faster and it's a lot cheaper. And so, you don't get hit in the breast by whatever the whatever, whatever occurred, right? Like
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Josh Levine:
people leave and you got this whole thing. You're like, uh-oh.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah, and I think I mean, I would love to get your thoughts on this because, you know, a lot of times people ask me, well, when should we be establishing, designing,
Josh Levine:
Mm. Over here. Mm.
Angela Howard (she/her):
and then assessing culture?
Josh Levine:
Mm-hmm.
Angela Howard (she/her):
How often are we doing this? Is it a one-and-done thing? So what do you think? You give me your answer first.
Josh Levine:
Yeah, right, right. Is finance a one-and-done thing? Like,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Right.
Josh Levine:
all right, we're done.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Josh Levine:
We're working on finance this quarter. Okay.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Only for this quarter. That's it.
Josh Levine:
So the kind of the, I'll go, I'll take you through like the growth arc. We'll talk about this as a narrative of a company scaling. So when a company starts, let's say a startup, the culture is the founder's culture. And that is the person who's going to, for better or worse, is going to be establishing an inherently. They grow and they're going to have access to that person. When you have access to that person, that's the person who's going to give you the raise, that's the person who's going to give you the title, that's the right? So you're looking to them for the success cues.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
At a certain point, the company scales far enough that you don't have regular access to the leaders. I still think that that's important and you need to provide that. with all hands or whatever it might be. But at that point, when you cross that Rubicon of folks, like a number of people, then you need to start to codify that culture.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
So that number of employees is actually, usually around 50.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
You hit, usually when you hit about 50, you cross over just about to hit 50. That's when you start to see subgroups forming. And that's the driver of kind of culture getting a little bit unwieldy little more, a little more
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
differentiated. And maybe that's not bad, but what you are risking is that a group succeeds and is doing it in a way that you are not, you know, as a founder or, you know, an investor are not okay with. And if you're making, you know, if you're cheating or you're selling in a different way or you're prioritizing something else, um, then that is not the kind of culture that you want. And so at that point, that's when I recommend folks start to really take a serious look is about 50 and establish those expectations and norms. And I think about cultural tools that you want to implement. So in my book, great Mondays, I articulate six components of culture. And the first two are purpose and values. The purpose is your peak of the mountain, values are the guard rails, the flags that you establish,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
telling people about where, what is, and how are we gonna get there. And so in my model and the way that I work with my clients we established those and say, hey, this is what we are expecting. Here are the kinds of decisions we're making. This is how we're doing that, right? And so those are the vessels that hold the expectations that we want to articulate and we can point to. And this is the other end of the policies is how organizations prevent bad behavior.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
So it's kind of like the tail end of that. So establishing values is sort of the front end of that.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Josh Levine:
That's what I would say. And maybe if you do a really good job and you get your culture moving in the right direction, you don't need as many of these policies.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Very
Josh Levine:
And
Angela Howard (she/her):
true.
Josh Levine:
I think that could be more efficient. So then you're growing, then you have established those. You're 50, you're 100, you're 200. What I have observed is it is a smart thing to do to reevaluate, maybe not change, but reevaluate your values every two to three years.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
Now, if you go really rapidly and you're going to enter new markets, maybe sooner. If it's something that's a little bit more you've grown to, you know, and you've stuck with, you know, you've got 10,000 employees globally and it's the same. And then so maybe the, you know, the values will tend to stay the same a little bit for larger organizations. But you should always be thinking about and re-asking that question like is, are these the right things that we want people to focus on? Right? So
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Josh Levine:
my rule is you get three to five values, five at the most.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
And that is because I'm forcing you as a leader to prioritize. And so when you prioritize those five things, these are the things that are most important for us to be moving forward on.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Josh Levine:
Great. And then when we succeed at a particular value, then we can say that that's something we've done well. and will continue to do well. Culture works in that way, self-fulfilling.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
And so that value can actually be subsumed under a different one, or you can free up that space for something else. The story that I tell about that is, I was working with this tech firm that was about to go public in the next six to 12 months. I didn't know it at the time, but they had hired us to do, to help them refresh their values.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Josh Levine:
And they were actually an amazingly diverse organization counter to what you've heard about tech, probably is true, but with that, this organization in particular really, really had all of this stuff built in. And it was really wonderful. They had a bunch of really great employee resource groups and diverse hiring practices and all this stuff. And my client was like, well, of course, diversity is going to be one of our values. And I was like, maybe. Or maybe it's not something you've already nailed it. Maybe you. Maybe
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Josh Levine:
you need to free that up to actually move the needle. And I'm redefining values in this way. They don't live forever. I think a lot of traditional companies will say, these are our values, integrity, and innovation, and they're values forever. But they're not so useful that way. So
Angela Howard (she/her):
And there's
Josh Levine:
I'm thinking,
Angela Howard (she/her):
some that are more table stakes, right? Like there's
Josh Levine:
table,
Angela Howard (she/her):
some
Josh Levine:
exactly.
Angela Howard (she/her):
that is,
Josh Levine:
You're
Angela Howard (she/her):
yeah.
Josh Levine:
like, what is the opposite of integrity? Like, you're just gonna accept that?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes,
Josh Levine:
Like,
Angela Howard (she/her):
yes.
Josh Levine:
what? Like, that's
Angela Howard (she/her):
Right.
Josh Levine:
like your value should be a strategic choice, this or that.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
And so the, for, Um, for them, it was, Hey, let's free this up to make a decision about what's the thing that we need people to start working on. So accountability was really important. People didn't, weren't being accountable, and owning projects. And so that is where we kind of focus that particular value, let's say. And then, so I freed it up. We didn't need that, that one, you know, variable, that one. slot for a value from diversity. Although it's important, still built into one of the other ones, but it's all there. And
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Josh Levine:
that's what I'm hoping for when I think about that. Sorry,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yeah,
Josh Levine:
that was an
Angela Howard (she/her):
well,
Josh Levine:
little
Angela Howard (she/her):
no.
Josh Levine:
values tangent to the question.
Angela Howard (she/her):
No, I mean, as you said, it's a cornerstone to how we're activating the culture. And I loved your narrative and storytelling around the maturity of the organization and when we need to be thinking about these different elements of culture. So you mentioned your book, Great Mondays,
Josh Levine:
Mm-hmm.
Angela Howard (she/her):
which I would love for you to tell us, yes, there it is. For those of you listening, we just got a little
Josh Levine:
Yeah,
Angela Howard (she/her):
preview
Josh Levine:
I showed
Angela Howard (she/her):
of the
Josh Levine:
it
Angela Howard (she/her):
book
Josh Levine:
right.
Angela Howard (she/her):
on
Josh Levine:
And
Angela Howard (she/her):
the
Josh Levine:
for
Angela Howard (she/her):
screen.
Josh Levine:
those of you on audio, I just held it up.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes,
Josh Levine:
Yes, it's called
Angela Howard (she/her):
tell
Josh Levine:
Great
Angela Howard (she/her):
us
Josh Levine:
Mondays.
Angela Howard (she/her):
more.
Josh Levine:
Great Mondays, how to design a company culture employees love.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Josh Levine:
You can find it anywhere that you get books. It is also available in audio format as well as digital. And it lays out the six components of company culture. And the reason why that I, I'm wondering why I wrote this book is because it felt like too many people um, I think thinking about and relenting their kind of autonomy around culture because it was like, yeah, well, it's kind of whatever it is. It's a sort of this fuzzy thing and we don't really
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hmm.
Josh Levine:
know. And you're like, it's whatever the you know, it's whatever the founder wants. And I felt, as I've articulated, that it's a really powerful thing that we can actually manage. And so I was able to Um, work with some folks to articulate this, um, cycle of six components that help frame up the parts and pieces of what it takes to build a culture and to do it in a way that you want responsibly and thoughtfully and, you know, in a, you know, designerly way. Right.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
And so the first three components, we've talked about two of them, purpose and values, and the third is behaviors. Behaviors are why we're talking about culture at all. this is what this is all about, right? So purpose,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
values, behaviors, that's the design of culture. Those are the three that are gonna get you to, hey, this is where we are on the map, this is where we wanna go. Now, just because you have it on the map doesn't mean it's gonna happen, right? Like you were saying, you got some
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
values up on the wall, see, integrity, right? And then meanwhile,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes.
Josh Levine:
like that doesn't matter. So we have to actually get the humans to operationalize, right, we have to activate
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
our culture. And that's the second three components. So purpose, values, and behaviors, are the first three recognition, rituals, and cues are the second three. That's how we activate. So everybody knows quickly, I'll tell you recognition. Everybody understands what recognition and rewards are. It happens all the time. The problem is most organizations recognize the wrong thing. They need to be recognizing values-driven behaviors, not just random like outcomes or
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
sales goals. I know that sales goals are very motivating for a certain number of people, but outcomes are not. How you drive. Culture, outcomes are, what you say when you say that you're rewarding outcomes is however you get there, it doesn't matter, just sell more or whatever
Angela Howard (she/her):
Right.
Josh Levine:
it might be. But culture is about how, it's how you choose your to operate in different scenarios. And so what you wanna do is you wanna reward values driven behaviors. Whole chapter about that in the book, has lots to say about it, I won't say it all now. Rituals, you
Angela Howard (she/her):
You gotta read the book, right?
Josh Levine:
gotta read the book, that's right, you gotta read the book. Rituals are how we build and strengthen relationships because relationships are the synapses of culture. And so as your organization grows, you're gonna get silos and that's fine,
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
or you're gonna get groups and different buildings and now you have distributed organizations, right? And it's like, there's all these different groups. And so what you need is actually to build and establish relationships so that culture can actually spread. And that's an even bigger a challenge. As a matter of fact, if I were to identify the biggest, the component that is going to be the biggest challenge in our sort of modern, you know, post-lockdown, highly distributed society, it's going to be about those rituals. And actually
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Josh Levine:
that's been what I've been asked to talk most about is actually how, okay, our teens are no longer feeling very productive and connected. How do we do that?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
So that's rituals. And then cues are how we keep people tethered to the big goals, what we're trying to achieve, right? What are we trying to achieve in the future, most explicitly our values and our purpose? And so what are the digital, physical, and behavioral reminders of this culture that we're trying to build? Because unlike me, where I think about culture all the time, most people don't because they have things to do, they got businesses to take care of, they got emails to answers, they got reports to create.
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm.
Josh Levine:
And so I don't pretend like it's the most important thing in everybody's life. So you have to keep people, you have to, as a manager or a leader, you have to remind people what that means. And that brings us back to the beginning of purpose and values. And so that's how I've tried to articulate a system
Angela Howard (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Josh Levine:
of engaging folks to be able to, leaders and managers, to be able to understand that it actually... is a system. It's something that is manageable. It's something that is measurable. And so again, we're going right back to my like, what does success look like?
Angela Howard (she/her):
Hehehe
Josh Levine:
I want more people, more leaders, more businesses to be able to go, ah, this is really important. Here's how we're going to create a process. And that's what we're going to do.
Angela Howard (she/her):
I absolutely love it, Josh. I really appreciate this conversation. The perspective you bring to this work is so needed. And I think the one thing that I'm taking away from our conversation is that culture is gonna happen regardless of you managing it. If you do manage it and you're clear about what you want your culture to be, you can really future-proof your organization. sustain the people and the outcomes you're looking to accomplish. I kind of think about it as a garden, right? Like if you leave the garden to just grow all over the place, you're gonna get
Josh Levine:
You get
Angela Howard (she/her):
weeds.
Josh Levine:
some wildflowers, you get some
Angela Howard (she/her):
Yes,
Josh Levine:
weeds.
Angela Howard (she/her):
yep, no one's a rowan in the same direction anymore, right, but when you're tending to a garden, then you're starting to get the beautiful flowers and you know, you're shaping,
Josh Levine:
merits.
Angela Howard (she/her):
yes, exactly.
Josh Levine:
I don't know, whatever you want to harbor.
Angela Howard (she/her):
I love it. I love it, my weird analogies. But Josh, tell us where people can find you. We heard about the book, Great Mondays. We'll make sure
Josh Levine:
Mm-hmm.
Angela Howard (she/her):
to put that in the show notes, but how can people find you if they wanna work with you?
Josh Levine:
Great Mondays dot com has all the information. I've launched a podcast this year. So if you're a culture podcast listener, which a hundred percent of you clearly are because you are listening to one right now, you should find Great Mondays radio and also subscribe and listen to all the amazing conversations I'm having. So that's there. The book is there and you can also send me an email through that website. Or if you want, find me on LinkedIn. You can find the, I'm the Josh Levine with the little lightning bolt next to his name, aka Josh Levine. So find me on LinkedIn. Would love to connect with anybody who would like to say, hey, I heard you on Angela's podcast and I would love to connect. So that's all the ways, always looking to talk to amazing people about culture and just like today.
Angela Howard (she/her):
I love it. I love it. Well, Josh, it's so lovely to have you on. Thank you so much.
Josh Levine:
Thanks, Angela.
