Episode 26: Rethinking Productivity by Reclaiming Flow
angela_r_howard (00:01.404)
All right, well, I want to welcome two very special guests today, Ulf and Stephen from Centered App, right? Is that the full name we're using? Perfect, perfect. I'm really jazzed for our conversation today because I'm.
ulf (00:12.615)
That's correct.
angela_r_howard (00:20.208)
Not only are we like kindred spirits, I think around the world of work and how we're thinking about, you know, breaking some paradigms perhaps that we've built up along the way around what work is, what productivity is, but also you all have created.
a resource and I think something that's gonna kind of change the way we think about work. So I'm excited for you all to talk about that. Let's start with just introductions. Tell us who you are, what your role is with Centered App, and then what makes you human. And maybe Stephen, we'll start with you and you can pass it on. I would be happy to. I am Ulf's co-founder. He invited me on this merry journey. My name is Ulf. I'm a co-founder of Centered App.
steven_puri (00:56.05)
I would be happy to. I am Ulf's co-founder. He invited me on this merry journey. My background is I came to California. I was a young engineer at IBM. I got into the business of film. I did mainly action movies as a visual effects person initially and later as a studio executive at 20th Century Fox.
angela_r_howard (01:03.668)
as I came to California, I was a young engineer at IBM. I got into the business of film. I did mainly action movies as a visual effects person initially, and later as a studio executive at 20th Century Fox and also DreamWorks. And then I did a lot of soul searching and evolution and cleansed that and got back into tech. And I've been working the past 10 years on startups, also as an old friend of mine and my wife's.
steven_puri (01:20.094)
Also DreamWorks. And then I did a lot of soul searching and ablution and cleansed that and got back into tech and I've been working the past 10 years on startups. Ulf is an old friend of mine and my wife's. And when he had this idea, it was intriguing to me because it felt like it really spoke to a lot of themes that I think there are in the world and things we could help. So he is very persuasive and I was like, okay, I'm signing up, I'll do it.
angela_r_howard (01:33.524)
And when he had this idea, it was intriguing to me because it felt like it really spoke to a lot of themes that I think there are in the world and things we can help. So he is very persuasive and I was like, okay, I'm signing up, I'll do it. I love it. And what makes you human? I listen.
steven_puri (01:49.183)
I listen.
angela_r_howard (01:52.168)
What about you all? Let's hear about you. Yeah, I'm Ulf Schwiegendieck. I'm the founder of Centered. We've been on this journey for just shy of two years of building software that brings emotion to software and that helps you to get your work done faster and happier.
ulf (01:54.855)
Yeah, I'm Ulf Schweikendieck. I'm the founder of Centered. We've been on this journey for just shy of two years of building software that brings emotion to software and that helps you to get your work done faster and happier. And what makes me human is that I believe that life is an iteration, every single piece of it, that it's...
angela_r_howard (02:13.772)
And what makes me human is that I believe that life is an iteration, every single piece of it, that it's a constant improvement and failure and learning from it and just getting better every day.
ulf (02:23.823)
It's a constant improvement and failure and learning from it and just getting better every day.
angela_r_howard (02:30.604)
I love that. And like I mentioned earlier, I think what you both have created is, it's not just inspiring, but I think it's actually changing the way we think about work. And we're at such a pivot point right now with the, I'll call it the social contract that employees are rethinking around what they want out of work and how they want to experience work and what they need. And so maybe, Stephen, starting with you.
Talk a little bit about what Centered App does and what's the originator around the concepts or the theories around things like flow and productivity. I think that it's very sweet of you to call me first twice, but I think this is one that Ulf should really answer. He's the origin of this story. You're very kind, yes, Ulf. He's a so much better storyteller than I am, but I'm going to give it a try.
steven_puri (03:10.834)
I think that it's very sweet of you to call me first twice, but I think this is one that Ulf should really answer because he is the origin of this story.
ulf (03:16.54)
Ha!
ulf (03:21.979)
He's a so much better storyteller than I am, but I'm gonna give it a try. And you get to listen to my lovely German accent a little bit longer. So we're trying to help you with Center to do something great and to reclaim the time of deep work or something that we call flow.
angela_r_howard (03:27.056)
you get to listen to my lovely German accent a little bit longer. So we're trying to help you. We're centered to do something great and reclaim the time of deep work or something that we call flow.
ulf (03:45.027)
If you don't know what flow is, you can imagine that time you've been in an airplane for like a work trip and you had to be completely disconnected from the internet and open your computer and started writing something or say like writing a long email or.
angela_r_howard (03:45.224)
If you don't know what flow is, you can imagine that time you've been in an airplane for like a work trip, and you had to be completely disconnected from the internet and open your computer and started writing something like writing a long email or
for me i'm an engineer writing some code and he realized tune off all these distractions around you have like some like humming off the engines going around there's nothing really that distracts you at all anymore you get so much more work done so much more meaningful work you might even get like ideas you would have not gotten so i think i truly believe we're living now in this world where
ulf (04:02.131)
For me, I'm an engineer writing some code. And you realized if you tune off all these distractions around you, you have some humming of the engines going around. There's nothing really that distracts you at all anymore. You get so much more work done, and you do so much more meaningful work. You might even get ideas you would have not gotten. And I think I truly believe we're living now in this world where
we should be a lot more measured about what we produce rather than how much time we spend on something. So, and in order to do that, I think we have to rethink the way we work. And
angela_r_howard (04:28.92)
should be a lot more measured about what we produce rather than how much time we spend on something. So and in order to do that I think we have to rethink the way we work. And I think we help you with our tool and our software to join this movement of like learning how to rethink the way you work and believe it or not the people that are
ulf (04:42.755)
I think we help you with our tool and our software to join this movement of like learning how to rethink the way you work. And believe it or not, the people that are already following us and doing this are getting so much more work done than before by just following our methodology of our app.
angela_r_howard (04:55.328)
following us and doing this are getting so much more work done than before by just following our methodology of our app.
and i'm happy to tell you more like it maybe like steven that's like a good segue over for you to tell us like what does center do so i'll tell you uh... a little lead into this is when all virtually described this to me he was talking about a mindful to-do list and those words didn't originally mean to me what they do now
ulf (05:05.927)
And I'm happy to tell you more like maybe like Stephen, that's like a good segue over for you to like tell us like what does Santa do?
steven_puri (05:13.89)
So I'll tell you a little lead into this is when Ulf originally described this to me, he was talking about a mindful to-do list. And those words didn't originally mean to me what they do mean now. And Ulf, to his credit, you know, went off, built a prototype and said, well, I think it's sort of like this. Because initially I was like, I love you, I support you, and I'm going to cheer you on, but I don't fully understand, you know, the place and the problem and the solution there. And when Ulf showed me what he had built, his first version.
angela_r_howard (05:26.568)
also to his credit you know what off built a prototype itself i think it's sort of like this is initially i was like i love you i support you i'm a cheer you on but i don't fully understand the place the problem solution there and also be what he built this uh... his first version it was clear it was really about these things that all product just now which is it's a motion software it's not just a word processor but it's something it's supposed to listen to motion and help you provide that to yourself you know almost a sense of self-care
steven_puri (05:42.198)
It was clear it was really about these themes that Ulf brought up just now, which is it's emotional software. It is not just a word processor, but it's something that's supposed to elicit an emotion and help you provide that to yourself. Almost a sense of self-care, saying, I'm going to take this time every day. And by doing this for myself, the same way like I have a daily yoga practice, I do that for myself and it elicits in me a certain set of feelings and probably like, you know, neuro sort of chemical responses.
angela_r_howard (05:56.582)
saying I'm going to take this time every day and by doing this myself the same like I have a daily yoga practice like I do that myself and it elicits in me a certain set of feelings and probably like you know neural sort of chemical responses that make me different on that day I can feel the days I miss yoga and also created something we said I think this is what I meant is that we can create emotional software allows people to get their work done in such a way where they feel better about it they've spent less time doing the same output
steven_puri (06:09.642)
that make me different on that day. I can feel the days that I miss yoga. And Ulf created something where he said, I think this is what I meant, is that we can create emotional software that allows people to get their work done in such a way where they feel better about it. They've spent less time doing the same output. And that for us has led to a culture where internally, Ulf and I, we encourage everyone to take flow time every day, where it's like, you're not expected to be responsive on Slack in two minutes. People can't bug you. Obviously if they need you.
angela_r_howard (06:26.816)
that for us is led to a culture where internally often i we encourage everyone to take full time every day works like you're not expected to be responsible slack in two minutes you know people can't believe that you said they need you text call and find something there's a fire burning in the third floor you know but otherwise it's like all that's right this is the time you do your dirt your deep work your full time we call it that's something i think is very interesting about what you know all created was the sense of
steven_puri (06:38.206)
text call and find something if there's a fire burning in the third floor, you know, but otherwise it's like, oh, that's right. This is the time you're going to do your deep work, your flow time, we call it. And that's something I think is very interesting about what, you know, Ulf created was this sense of how do you be mindful about your work and bring that happiness? So yeah, it's kind of where we are.
angela_r_howard (06:56.63)
that happiness. So yeah, it's kind of where we are. And the interesting thing is that like Centered, when you open up for the first time, it has a to do list aspect of it. We give you the options to write down the things you need to do to organize your work. Like any other simple to do list would do. But
ulf (07:00.187)
Yeah. And, and the interesting thing is that like centered when you open up for the first time, it has a to-do list aspect of it. We give you the options to write down the things you need to do to organize your work and like any other simple to-do list would do, but we, we decided we're not stopping there and we think that every other to-do list fails at actually helping you to get your work done. They're great about planning.
angela_r_howard (07:18.456)
we decided we're not stopping there. And we think that every other to do list fails at actually helping you to get your work done. They're great about planning. They're not great about helping you to be present and get your work done. And that is what centered really is you pull your task into a current flow session, you timebox every task you think about how long it will take you to do a certain thing. And then you hit
ulf (07:30.503)
They're not great about helping you to be present and get your work done. And that is what centered really is. You pull your task into a current flow session. You time box every task. You think about how long it will take you to do a certain thing. And then you hit play and we put you into a mode that puts you into a deep work state quicker by showing you a little mini player always on your app, or always on your computer.
angela_r_howard (07:48.324)
And we put you into a mode that puts you into a deep work state quicker by showing you a little mini player always on your app.
always computer showing you remind you that one task is supposed to be working on context switching it's very productive inexpensive we do it all the time just nature so we're helping to retrain yourself to focus on one thing at a time only one thing at a time how do we do that showing you what you're supposed to be doing right now we have a cat
ulf (07:59.323)
showing you, reminding you the one task you're supposed to be working on because context switching is very improductive and very expensive. And we do it all the time, just by nature. So we're helping you to retrain yourself to focus on one thing at a time and only at one thing at a time. How do we do that? We're, we're showing you what you were supposed to be doing right now. We having a counter that goes down on like your estimated task time. We play focus music that we
angela_r_howard (08:21.412)
that goes down on like your estimated task time. We play focused music that we designed ourselves with amazing musicians together that help you to stay in flow that don't distract you, that don't have for it, that have a certain beat pattern.
ulf (08:28.083)
designed ourselves with amazing musicians together that help you to stay in flow that don't distract you, that don't have for that have they for instance have a certain beat pattern, they have no vocals because vocals are triggering a part in your brain to like out of us into speech processing and that is again like a context switch for you. So there's specific music that helps you to stay in flow longer and we have that music for you.
angela_r_howard (08:39.4)
they have no vocals because vocals are triggering a part of your brain to like out of a simple speech processing. But that is again, like a context switch for you. So there's specific music that helps you to stay in flow longer. And we have that music for you. Lastly, I'm not sure if you have been there. I'm sure some of your listeners have been where you're coding or writing or doing something creative. You think you are in flow all night long.
ulf (08:58.083)
If you have been there, I'm sure some of your listeners have been where you're coding or writing or doing something creative. You think you're in flow all night long and you're just like trying to get that last paragraph done or trying to get that last script written. And you realize you have not drank in any water for the last two hours. You have not gotten off your desk for the last two hours and you kind of stuck. So we help you as well with that.
angela_r_howard (09:08.996)
And you're just like trying to get that last paragraph done, or trying to get that last script written. And.
you realize you have not drank any water for the last two hours, you have not gotten off your desk for the last two hours, and you're kind of stuck. So we help you as well with that. We actually follow a method called the Pomodoro method. That is you can specify how many times an hour you want to take a break. So you can say every 25 minutes, I want to take a five minute break and centered helps you to facilitate that to say, it's like, okay, take a breather, like take a,
ulf (09:26.931)
We actually follow a method called the palmodoro method. That is, you can specify how many times an hour you want to take a break. So you can say every 25 minutes, I want to take a five minute break. And centered helps you to facilitate that, to say it's like, okay, take a breather, like take a, we have a breathing exercise in our app, for instance, on these breaks. Like take a super quick breather, a refresher, like take some water, get up.
angela_r_howard (09:45.942)
breathing exercise in our app, for instance, on these breaks. Like take a super quick breather, a refresher, like take some water, get up, do something, and then dive back in and you'll notice that you get your work so much quicker done if you actually take breaks as well. All of this, when I say emotional software, comes from amazing technology and amazing content. The music is one piece to it. The last piece that I haven't mentioned yet is NOAA. NOAA is...
ulf (09:52.979)
Do something and then dive back in and you'll notice that you get your work so much quicker done if you actually take breaks as well. All of this, when I say emotional software comes from amazing technology and amazing content. The music is one piece to it. The last piece that I haven't mentioned yet is NOAA. NOAA is your guide in a flow session. NOAA is an audio guide that looks a little bit over your shoulder.
angela_r_howard (10:13.812)
is your guide in a flow session. Nowhere is an audio guide that looks a little bit over your shoulder, sees what you're doing, and tries to help you stay on task by telling you you're getting distracted. For instance, if you're opening up Twitter or YouTube or whatever gets you distracted, trying to pull you back to monotask and continue to work on that one task. He'll give you time announcements. He'll just crack a joke from time to time
ulf (10:22.327)
sees what you're doing and tries to help you stay on task by telling you you're getting distracted. For instance, if you're opening up Twitter or YouTube or whatever gets you distracted, to like trying to pull you back to monotask and continue to work on that one task. He'll give you time announcements. He'll just crack a joke from time to time to keep you engaged. He's a lovely, lovely assistant.
angela_r_howard (10:44.366)
He's engaged. He's a lovely, lovely assistant. Oh, I love that. I wish Noah was on the podcast too. We can arrange that. Next episode. I love it. And his voice is way better than ours.
steven_puri (10:52.323)
We can arrange that. Next episode. And his voice is way better than ours. Trust us.
ulf (10:54.946)
We can get that done.
Agreed, agreed.
angela_r_howard (11:00.336)
Well, that's, I mean, gosh, that, you know, just to kind of break down some of the things that I'm hearing, you know, I mean, things that are happening in the app, but I think just tactics for our listeners to keep in mind, I think the guided piece of your tool is so important, but, you know, there's very simple concepts to pull out of that.
Like the, you know, I always think about the, just creating space, right? Creating space to think, but then also to work on one task at a time. I tell my husband all the time, I'm like, multitasking is not a thing. Our brains can't do it. Ha ha ha.
ulf (11:26.011)
Absolutely.
angela_r_howard (11:39.396)
Although he tells me I multitask all the time, I'm like, I can't. And I think a lot of people, I think just traditionally in the workplace, we've kind of, it's a coveted skill, multitasking, wearing many hats. You see all these things in job descriptions, interestingly enough, and they're not very human because our brains don't like it. Absolutely, I think actually, especially in Yale, we're...
ulf (12:00.719)
Absolutely. I think actually, especially, you know, we're living in the startup bubble, being startups where like startup founders have to wear many hats. And it doesn't mean to multitask. To me, it means to like, my life is like, for two hours, I'm a designer, for the next hour, I'm in fundraising mode, for the next hour, I'm an engineer. And that means many hats.
angela_r_howard (12:04.48)
start in the startup bubble, like startup founders have to wear many hats and it doesn't mean to multitask. Yes, true, that's true.
angela_r_howard (12:17.396)
like for two hours I'm a designer for the next hour I'm in fundraising mode for the next hour I'm an engineer
many heads, not what a lot of people like conceive as like, Oh, you have to do seven things all at once. You're right. Our brains are not designed to multitask. That's why it's so slow. Microsoft has done so much research on what it means and how bad task switching is in our head. And that is why this concept of monotasking is so important, so important, so rewarding too. If you
ulf (12:27.351)
Not what a lot of people like conceive as like, oh, you have to do seven things all at once. You're right. Um, our brains are not designed to multitask. That's why it's so slow. Microsoft has done so much research on what it means and how bad task switching is in our head. And that is why this concept of multitasking is so important. So important, so rewarding too. If you get to it.
It's amazing. You're like, like a lot of our, our customers, like we're talking about three hours later, they're done with all their work that they usually take in a whole day and, uh, just because they did not switch the entire time over from one task to another.
angela_r_howard (12:56.242)
like a lot of our customers like we're talking about three hours later, they're done with all the work that they usually take in a whole day. And just because they did not switch the entire time over from one test to another. There's one aspect of this that also hasn't touched upon, but I'm going to touch upon it, which is, we do believe that we're coming to a different understanding of like what that is to be human and how being human relates to being productive. And we have
steven_puri (13:10.614)
There is one aspect of this that Ulf hasn't touched upon, but I'm going to touch upon it, which is we do believe that we're coming to a different understanding of like what that is to be human and how being human relates to being productive. And we have, you know, some of our teammates are in Europe where there are different understandings of like the rhythms of work, the rhythms of life, when you eat, when you sleep, when you rest, when you see friends, some are in Canada, some are in Mexico, we have a distributed team and
angela_r_howard (13:24.336)
yet to our teammates are europe where there are different standings like the rhythms of work business life when you eat when you sleep when you rest when you see friends summary in canada summer mexico we've uh... distributed team and you know people talk right now about the great resignation and renegotiation of the employer employee relationship
steven_puri (13:37.674)
When people talk right now about the great resignation and the renegotiation of the employer-employee relationship, people right now are feeling more empowered to say, this is how I'm human. Like maybe I want to be in the office all the time. I crave that sort of interaction. Maybe I don't. Maybe I have children and it's a great thing for me to be around my children, but I'll get my work done. Maybe it's I'm a digital nomad now. I'm going to work from a different city each month this year. But I can be sort of geagnostic because
angela_r_howard (13:43.868)
you know people right now feeling more power to say this is how i'm human like me i want to be office all the time i create that sort of traction maybe i don't think that children it's a great thing for me to be around my children but i'll get my work done maybe it's a big digital no-fat now of the work for a different city each month this year you know i can be search you agnostic because what i do it doesn't require door-to-door salesman stuff so
steven_puri (14:06.71)
What I do doesn't require door-to-door salesman stuff. So toward that end, there is an aspect of humanity that we think is expressing itself. And we hope that our tool is helpful for people as they choose that to say, I can be productive anywhere. And what's interesting is, and this is not gonna be a long ramble, but I'm gonna wrap it up in a moment. People, when we've shown them this coworking product, they very often, when they talk to us about our own product, they reference physical spaces.
angela_r_howard (14:13.882)
we think it's expressing itself and we hope that our tool is helpful for people as they choose that to say I can be productive anywhere and what's interesting is and this is not going to be a long ramble but I'm going to wrap it up in a moment.
people when we've shown that this co-working product very often when they talk to us about our own product the reference physical spaces you know it feels like i'm in a coffee shop where maybe i'm not talking to the people are not hanging out social party but i feel connected to the energy of like their ten other people's coffee shoppers a screenwriter that quarter to engineers over there there's some guy working on his lawn mowing website you know that's kind of interesting
steven_puri (14:35.67)
They say, oh, it feels like I'm in a coffee shop where maybe I'm not talking to other people. I'm not hanging out socially. It's not a party, but I feel connected. I feel the energy of like there are 10 other people in this coffee shop. There's a screenwriter in that corner. There are two engineers over there. There's some guy working on his lawn mowing website, you know, and that's kind of an interesting thing again about being human, how we understand digital things sometimes through their analog, you know, correlatives. The, the
angela_r_howard (14:56.118)
how we understand digital things sometimes through their analog correlatives. The thing you were talking about a moment ago about internal and external triggers that pull you to multitask or tried to multitask.
steven_puri (15:03.446)
thing you were talking about a moment ago about, you know, internal and external sort of triggers that pull you to, to multitask or tried to multitask. We also help you because a lot of the external sort of pulls come through like Slack and some other apps like that. So we respectfully, if you'd like, we will put your Slack in a way mode with a little message saying, Hey, I'm in a flow session. So your teammates in your Slack will say, Oh, okay.
angela_r_howard (15:11.344)
we also help you because a lot of the external uh... circles comes like slack and so other uh... apps like that so we respectfully if you'd like we will put your slack in a way about it with a message saying i'm in a flow session so your teammates in your slack will say all right i can't bother steven also truly important because message you'd be like a outside of the city
steven_puri (15:30.458)
Right now I can't bother Steven unless it's really important because when they message you, they'd be like, hey, I'm in flow. You know, like this is not a time unless it's super urgent right now for me to respond to you because that's how quickly you go from like, oh, I'm writing this thing to, well, Ulf has a question I should answer that. And that leads me on the thing of like, I better go into Google Drive and find those files and send them to Derek and that sort of thing.
angela_r_howard (15:41.238)
I'm like, oh, I'm writing this thing too. Well, Ulf has a question I should answer that. And that leaves me on the thing of like, I better go to Google Drive and find those files and send them to Derek and that sort of thing.
ulf (15:51.844)
Absolutely.
angela_r_howard (15:53.081)
Absolutely. Yeah, and all of you mentioned earlier, I thought it was, I kind of want to dig into it a little bit because you mentioned about how expensive it is. And I would love to just hear a little bit more about that because a lot of our listeners are heads of people, chief people officers, CEOs, founders, and such. And so.
You know, I think where sometimes it becomes difficult is like communicating this message to them to say, how do you create systematic ways to get people in flow or in states of mindfulness? So tell us a little about the expensive comment you mentioned earlier. And then talking to business owners, why is this important? One turn is not expensive. Let's be clear. Multitasking is expensive. Yes. That's what I'm getting at. That this, the idea of not being in the state of flow.
ulf (16:32.52)
Yum.
steven_puri (16:34.934)
Centered is not expensive, let's be clear. Centered is not. Multitasking is expensive. Ha ha ha.
ulf (16:39.271)
Multitasking is expensive, correct? Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (16:45.034)
Working on many things at once isn't expensive. It's a it's a it costs your bottom line your business your bottom line. So Yes
ulf (16:53.595)
Absolutely. So, so share, share and cost. We, we analyzed our last two years of user activity and came up with a number that helps you understand how expensive it is to not monotask. That is 30% of your work time, you could
angela_r_howard (17:10.388)
expensive it is to not monotask that is 30% of your work time, you could you could get done you could get all your work done in an average in our user base like that people who use centered 30% quicker than what it used to take you or even what it what you think it takes us that's how we came up with that number we looked at people's estimates and then having them you centered
ulf (17:19.599)
You could get done, you could get all your work done in it, in average in our user base, like that people who you centered 30% quicker than what it used to take you. Or even what you think it takes us. That's how we came up with that number. We looked at people's estimates.
and then having them use centered. And in average people get their work even 30% under the estimates done. It's not for every single person, but once you start getting in this mindset of doing just one thing, you'll get it most likely in 30% less time than even you think it is. And, and that is to me.
angela_r_howard (17:39.956)
And in average people get their work even 30% under the estimates done. It's not for every single person. But once you start getting in this mindset of doing just one thing, you'll get it most likely in 30% less time than even you think it is. And that is to me...
that is where businesses think about 30% of your workforce savings that is that is in the depending on the size of your business that is like ginormous that is like it's phenomenal not like an $80 a year subscription for like a single person that is, you know, like 100x more than that you would save by following being a little bit more mindful not to even think about churn of your employees, your employees being burned out especially right now during a time of a lot of people being
ulf (18:00.627)
That is where like businesses think about 30% of your workforce savings. That is, that is in the, depending on the size of your business, that is like ginormous. That is like not, not like an $80 a year subscription for like a single person. That is, you know, like a hundred X more than that, that you would save by following, being a little bit more mindful, not to even think about churn of your employees, your employees being burned out, especially right now, during a time of a lot of
angela_r_howard (18:30.206)
forced to work from home that not necessarily want to work from home. I feel like the beginning of the pandemic, it all started with like, Oh, this is so great. I don't have to commute anymore. Yes, commuting sucks. And we should, we should figure out how to be better at that. But.
ulf (18:30.281)
forced to work from home, that not necessarily want to work from home. I feel like the beginning of the pandemic, it all started with like, Oh, this is so great. I don't have to commute anymore. Yes, commuting sucks. And we should, we should figure out how to be better at that. But.
angela_r_howard (18:47.08)
the key part here is to what happened then over the last couple of months is people would just had nothing else to do and kept on working, kept on working and kept on working and their work became less and less and less efficient. So what, what gets you that churn in your company for like, if you like think about it as a, as a CEO, you're like, you're just overworked and you don't really control that anymore. You can't just say, Hey, the office is closed at six o'clock. Oh, you're like, you walk through like your office space and you're like, Hey,
ulf (18:47.143)
The key part here is to, what happened then over the last couple of months is people would just, they had nothing else to do and kept on working and kept on working and kept on working and their work became less and less and less efficient. So what gets you that? Sharing in your company for like, if you think about it as a CEO, you're like.
You're just overworked and you don't really control that anymore. You can't just say, Hey, the office is closed at six o'clock. Or you like, you walk through like your office space and you're like, Hey, Steven, why are you still sitting here at eight o'clock every night? Please go home. Um, you don't, you lost control over that as a leader. So finding even more ways that, that teach every single person what it means to be, to get work done and what it means to rest and recover is, is also super important.
angela_r_howard (19:17.034)
you're still sitting here at 8 o'clock every night, please go home. You lost control over that as a leader. So finding even more ways that teach every single person what it means to be to get work done and what it means to rest and recover is also super important.
angela_r_howard (19:41.36)
you know, lagging and leading indicators of burnout and even productivity, right? Because again, I think we have this really, quite frankly, outdated paradigm of what productivity is. It's five days a week. It's, you know, eight to 40 hours a week. Yeah. All all those arbitrary numbers. And so I think now we're seeing this shift of the paradigm to say, you know, let's use outcomes based leadership.
ulf (19:57.203)
40 hours a week, yeah.
steven_puri (19:59.309)
Thanks.
angela_r_howard (20:11.314)
the human and how the actual human nervous system and brain works. Being in the office is, I think, a benefit, but it's also I can now get my work done anywhere. But I have to also have some mindfulness baked into those practices and routines to make sure I'm also considering my whole human when getting things done. So...
Yeah, there's a lot of shifting happening. And so Stephen, kind of to, and I wanna be respectful of your time, because I feel like we could just dig into like a million different tiny topics here, but. I would dig into one. Yeah, please. What makes you human, Angela?
steven_puri (20:46.526)
We could. I want to dig into one. What makes you human, Angela?
angela_r_howard (20:50.556)
Ooh, yes, throw the question over. What makes me human? I think what makes me human is I don't know everything. I make mistakes, I take a lot of risks, they don't always work, and I have made a lot of mistakes in my life. So I think being human is taking some risks, trying new things, and taking the best of what you learn along the way.
ulf (21:19.459)
I would even go more and say I would celebrate the mistakes that you've made in your lives because if you think about, and I think it goes well for your listeners too, if you go back and go through like.
angela_r_howard (21:21.44)
say I would celebrate the mistakes in your life because if you think about
well for your listeners too, if you go back and like go through like the big failures in your life, I'm sorry I'm German I can I can talk directly about negativity that happens in your life. If you think about the really hard parts in your life where you feel like you failed
ulf (21:33.627)
the big failures in your life. I'm sorry, I'm German. I can talk directly about negativity that happened in your life. If you think about the really hard parts in your life where you feel like you failed, these are most likely the most formative things that happen to you. And so I think culturally we should talk more about that it's okay to make mistakes.
angela_r_howard (21:48.084)
these are most likely the most formative things that happen to you. And so I think, culturally, we should talk more about that it's okay to make mistakes, because that's what makes us human. And that's what's making us to improve ourselves much, much more than getting that promotional whatnot. Like, it's a nice little feeling that you have for a second to get promoted or, you know, what
ulf (22:01.051)
because that's what makes us human and that's what's making us to improve ourselves much, much more than getting that promotion or whatnot. Like it's a nice little feeling that you had for a second to like get promoted or, you know, what, whatever it says, sell your company, but, but they're really, they're really learning factors that make you a better or a more advanced human is actually about your failure, about your mistakes.
angela_r_howard (22:15.988)
is tell your company but the really learning factors that make you better or more
human is actually about your failure, about your mistakes. Yeah, and I think this ties in nicely because, and I'm glad you asked the question, Steven, so thank you. Because I think a lot of times we do put ourselves into a box of what should be, what we think society or the workplace wants us to do, but really for me, my journey has been just trying things and figuring out what works well for me.
employees are becoming more and more empowered to do that. To say, you know what, commuting two hours doesn't work for me. And I've made the mistake of maybe spending the last two years doing that, but now I wanna do something different. I'm gonna try something new. And maybe that didn't work, but you know, and you just, you incrementally, I think, get better. And you incrementally find the space where you can thrive. And that's really what I think leaders and businesses and companies should be doing to help employees as well, is to do that exploration, to fail, to give the permission.
to fail, give the permission card to say, you know what, that didn't work out, but let's talk about what you learned and we'll be better next time. You clearly put a lot of energy toward this idea of what it is to be human and how that expresses itself. Was there a particular event or a person that was influential for you? You know, interesting you asked that question. I am working on...
steven_puri (23:32.006)
You clearly put a lot of energy toward this idea of what it is to be human and how that expresses itself. Was there a particular event or a person that was influential for you?
angela_r_howard (23:48.096)
my book and I just recently started a chapter on my parents and the parallels between parenting and leadership. And one of the things that I mentioned or I kind of opened with was this realization that my mom was the main breadwinner, so my dad was a stay at home dad, very non-traditional parenting setup. And you know.
You know, when you're a kid, your parents are so...
you see them as the hot shots, right? The big shots. Whatever they're doing at work, they're the best at it. They could be an accountant, but they're a CEO to you. My mom would come home and she would just feel defeated every day, and I felt that. In our family unit, in our small family unit, I felt that. And so I think that had a really big impact on
my view of the responsibility of companies to send happier, healthier humans home so they can impact their family unit, societies, communities. It's a ripple effect. And so if I could think of one person, it's probably my parents collectively because my dad is another force of nature, but that'll be a whole other podcast episode to talk about him. So. That is very interesting you say that because I'll tell you, how do you know an Ulf were the better part of the decade?
steven_puri (25:11.57)
It's very interesting you say that because I'll tell you, you know, having known Ulf for the better part of a decade, and now he has, you know, three months old at home, something I said to you, I think about a month or so ago, Ulf was having a child and being a parent. I have never seen Ulf so loving and compassionate and thoughtful as a leader as since he had a little life to take care of. And that's been a market sort of like, as Ulf always iterates on himself and works to self improve.
angela_r_howard (25:18.188)
uh... and now he has three-month-old at home something i said to you i think about a month or so ago having a child and being a parent i've never seen Ulf so loving and compassionate and thoughtful as a leader since he had a little life to take care of and that's been a market sort of like as Ulf always iterates on himself and works to self-improve that's been amazing just having a front row seat to see that
steven_puri (25:41.25)
That's been amazing, just having front row seat to see that.
angela_r_howard (25:45.84)
Yeah, it's, it's so it's so interesting. A really good friend of mine gave me this feel just before I became a father of and I thought this analogy is just the best analogy ever. It like resonated so well with me. So I'm going to share with you now is becoming a parent.
ulf (25:47.367)
It's so interesting. A really good friend of mine gave me the spiel just before I became a father of... And I thought this analogy is just the best analogy ever. It resonated so well with me, so I'm going to share it with you now.
ulf (26:06.299)
Becoming a parent feels like walking through a portal into a new world. That tree outside your door is still the same tree and yet it is completely a different tree. The car on the street is still the same car that drives by every day and it's out of a sudden a completely different car. I could have...
angela_r_howard (26:09.072)
feels like walking through a portal into a new world. That tree outside your door is still the same tree and yet it is completely a different tree. The car on the street is still the same car that drives by every day and it's out of a sudden a completely different car. I could have...
Before I became a dad, I thought, you're like, oh, that's interesting. Yeah, I can see this, but experiencing it, how the world and your belief system changes so dramatically after becoming a parent is fascinating, the best thing that happened to me. Would you say to Angela about your mother?
ulf (26:31.187)
Before I became a dad, I thought, oh, that's interesting, yeah, I can see this. But experiencing it, how the world and your belief system changes so dramatically after becoming a parent is fascinating, the best thing that happened to me.
steven_puri (26:51.25)
And would you would you said, Angela, about, you know, your mother and how you saw her? She, you know, was the breadwinner of the family. If you look at the constructs that we and I'm not going to say I'm religious or atheist in this regard. But if you think about how we construct religion is it is very much about when we are too young to understand abstract concepts like religion. Our parents are our gods.
angela_r_howard (26:55.156)
And then, you know, how you saw her, she, you know, was the breadwinner of the family. If you look at the constructs that we, and I'm not going to say I'm religious or atheist in this regard, but if you think about how we construct religion, it is very much about when we are too young to understand abstract concepts like religion, our parents are our gods, you know, which is why we look at them in that way and at some point realize they're not god, but they were.
steven_puri (27:18.258)
which is why we look at them in that way, and at some point realize they're not God, but they were. And we later create that with superheroes, often with comic book characters, like they become our new gods. And what's interesting is if you then look at how we've created religion and created these comic book characters, these superheroes, they often are just a reflection of our families. There's recreating the family life, and most of them can be in a very reductive way, boiled down to, oh, this is a story of a brother and sister.
angela_r_howard (27:24.55)
with comic book characters like they become our new gods and what's interesting is if you then look at how we've created religion and created these comic book characters superheroes they often are just a reflection of our families there's recreating the family life and most of them can be in a very reductive way boiled down to oh this is a story of a brother and sister the wonder twins or this is a story of you know a family where the incredibles is a great example because
steven_puri (27:46.946)
the Wonder Twins or this is a story of a family where the Incredibles is a great example because the guys at Pixar are very smart about this. Incredibles is almost a meta movie about superheroes because it was literally saying like, do you get it? All these movies are about a family. We'll make a movie about a family. And it was sort of that inside Hollywood kind of joke of that's what you're doing is you're just saying these are family dynamics, but by the way, Ulf can fly.
angela_r_howard (27:54.85)
this. Incredibles is almost a meta movie about superheroes because it was literally saying like, do you get it? All these movies are about a family. We'll make a movie about a family. And it was sort of that inside Hollywood kind of joke of that's what you're doing. You're just saying these are family dynamics, but by the way, Ulf can fly. Right. Let's add a little bit of spice in the mix. But yeah, it comes down to that core, which is, that's fascinating. That's a fascinating way to look at it. And I think
I was processing with my publisher about the idea of, like she wants me to include a parallel between how I viewed the workplace then and what I've learned along the way and the different parallels. And it's been a fascinating self-exploration as a part of the process, so.
ulf (28:50.975)
Angela, I have one last question for you too. Since you're writing a lot, what do you do to get into the zone and keep on writing?
angela_r_howard (28:52.416)
question for you yes since you're writing a lot what do you do to get into the zone
Well, I have used flow tactics most of my career. I'm not great at them. I'm not good at meditation. I'm horrible at meditation, but I am a creature of habit. So routines work really, really well for me. So the wind up, the wind down, every day. Steven, what you said resonated with me around, when I don't do yoga, I feel it. I feel a difference.
that if I don't do them, I will feel a difference. So routine and also having a community of people. I'm currently working with my publisher and a community of other writers and being able to process from different experiences because I'm writing these experiences on paper, but when I hear people read them and then say back to me how they processed it,
it's fascinating. So I think community, routine, but also setting time aside. I'm the type of person who I have to do things one thing at a time, like most people. But I've started to book these weekly trips where I just go away and just write. And so those are just a few things that have worked for me. Yeah, it goes so well when you have
ulf (30:28.519)
Yeah, it goes so well when you basically put your setting really into account and like where do you work, how does your desk look like? One thing that we always recommend is, for instance, how synth can like...
angela_r_howard (30:30.324)
basically put your setting really into account and like where do you work, how does your desk look like? One thing that we always recommend is, for instance, how scent can add to your concentration levels. Like when I get into like a deep work session, I put some, actually I have a diffuser here and like put some scents on, like lavender.
ulf (30:47.107)
add to your concentration levels. Like when I get into like a deep work session, I put some actually have a diffuser here and like put some put some sense on like a lavender, for instance, or like a mint, and just like, work that Pavlovshin brain of mine to like figure out, okay, this is deep work time and like how another sense can actually trigger that is super interesting. The the other piece and you know, anybody who
angela_r_howard (30:57.804)
for instance, or like a mint. And just like, work that Pavlovshin brain of mine to like figure out, okay, this is deep work time and like how another sense can actually trigger that is super interesting. Oh, yeah, that's really interesting. The other piece, anybody who
ulf (31:16.819)
who wants to tweet at us and follow us, we can send you one of these and we'll send you one too. We have these lovely little boxes that fits your phone inside. And there's a little like hole for a charger and while you work, just put your phone away. So there are so many little tricks to basically on a very low tech way to help you to stay focused.
angela_r_howard (31:17.484)
to tweet at us and follow us. We can send you one of these and we'll send you one too. We have these lovely little boxes that fits your phone inside. It's a little like hole for the charger and while you work just put your phone away. So
Genius. There are so many little tricks to basically, on a very low tech way, to help you to stay focused. Not so that you can do 10 hours of work, so that you can do 7 hours of super meaningful work and you get probably twice as much done. Well, tell our listeners how they can support...
ulf (31:46.239)
And not so that you can do 10 hours of work, so that you can do seven hours of super meaningful work, and you get probably twice as much done.
angela_r_howard (32:02.088)
contribute, sign up, your journeys, but also the centered app. And so where should folks go? Absolutely. So go to center.app. You can download our app. It's a Mac OS app and a Windows app. Go and install it. Go try it. It's free.
ulf (32:10.735)
Absolutely. So go to center.app. You can download our app. It's a macOS app and a Windows app.
steven_puri (32:10.838)
with.
ulf (32:20.019)
Go and install it, go try it, it's free. You can just start using it. We have a premium version of it as well. If you wanna start customizing the app and really get the most out of the app, it is a subscription that we have for $80 a year. So if you again think about like the amount of time you'll save with this and how much happier you feel, it's a fraction of the money you actually spent on your life. So.
angela_r_howard (32:22.844)
you can just start using it. We have a premium version of it as well. If you wanna start customizing the app and really get the most out of the app, it is a subscription that we have for $80 a year. So it's, if you again, think about like the amount of time you'll save with this and how much happier you feel. It's a fraction of the money you actually spent on your life.
We do that so we do not have to sell any of your data. Your data is 100% private to you. We'll never touch it in any possible way, which is super, super important to us that it's safe. Again, find us at center.app on any browser of your choice. And we'll see you in the next one.
ulf (32:45.027)
We do that so we do not have to sell any of your data. Your data is 100% private to you. It will never touch it in any possible way, which is super, super important to us that it's safe. Again, find us at center.app.
on any browser of your choice. Same thing, we are centered app on Twitter. Again, Twitter says, if you heard it on the podcast and you want one of these boxes, just let us know. We'll send you one.
steven_puri (33:05.474)
Thank you.
angela_r_howard (33:06.676)
same thing, we are centered app on Twitter. Get tweeters us if you heard it on the podcast and you want one of these boxes, just let us know we'll send you one. Angela is very sweet. Are you just saying how we could be supported but really what we're creating is something to support other people to do something great. You know, we talk often about no one is going to write the next great novel scrolling Instagram and they're not.
steven_puri (33:17.106)
Angela is very sweet of you to say how we could be supported, but really what we're creating is something to support other people to do something great. You know, we talk often about no one is going to write the next great novel scrolling on Instagram and they're not going to cure cancer learning a viral challenge on TikTok. So we're here to help you to actually do something great with your life rather than just scroll and sell your life to advertisers.
angela_r_howard (33:31.204)
your cancer learning a viral challenge on TikTok. So we're here to help you actually do something great with your life rather than just scroll and sell your life to advertisers.
Well, I love what you both are doing and we will make sure to put your info in the show notes so folks hear it or they see it, they can click on it. And thank you both so much. I love this conversation and I loved your questions for me. I always love when I get questions. So thank you for all your time and all that you do. It was super fun. Thanks for having us. Thank you.
ulf (33:50.451)
Thank you.
steven_puri (34:02.798)
It was super fun.
ulf (34:02.963)
Thank you so much. It was super fun. Thanks for having us. Bye.
steven_puri (34:07.374)
Thanks.
