Episode 27: Impact Hiring
angela_howard (00:01.942)
Hi, Kim. Welcome to Humanly Possible. I'm so excited to have you on. Thanks for joining us. Hi, Angela. Thanks so much. I think this is going to be a fun conversation. Yes. Yes, me too. So Kim, if you could just tell us a little bit about your background just professionally, but also let us know what makes you human.
kim (00:07.562)
Angela, thanks so much. I think this is going to be a fun conversation.
kim (00:23.758)
Oh, so many things that make me human. What do I want to share today is probably a good caveat. Yes, yes. So my background has been in operations or HR or people in culture, depends on what decade we're in about what we want to call it. But it's really been a focus of people and process for business. And I think what makes me human and what I hope
angela_howard (00:23.802)
Okay, oh so many things that make me human. What do I want to share today? That's the real question. Yes, yes, so my background has been in operations or HR or people in culture, depends on what decade we're in, what we want to call it. But it's really been a focus of people and process for business. And I think what makes me human and what I hope...
kim (00:50.514)
a lot of people can identify with, especially over the past year and a half, is my resilience and being able to not just handle change, but actually to come through change with a more, maybe with a stronger attitude or a more eyes wide open perspective of the world. You know, whatever resilience means to any individual today, I think.
angela_howard (00:51.97)
people can identify with, especially over the past year and a half, is my resilience and being able to not just handle change, but actually to come through change with a more, maybe with a stronger attitude or a more eyes wide open perspective of the world. You know, whatever.
resilience means to any individual today. I think that particular characteristic of our humanity is what I would identify most with. I love that. And resilience is just a heavy word right now, too, because I feel like a lot of us are going through a ton of change. And you and I probably talk a lot about these buzzwords, like the future of work and the workforce and workforce development. But really what it comes down to is,
kim (01:18.873)
characteristic of our humanity is what I would identify most with.
angela_howard (01:46.816)
the world of work. And I think there's a lot happening right now. We've got hybrid working, we've got a skill set shortage with our baby boomers retiring. There's a lot happening and I think we're at a really unique point. So what are some other things that leaders, executives, business owners need to be thinking about when it comes to the changing world of work?
Well, what I hope that they're not thinking about is how to maintain status quo because status quo is out the window. One of the responses that frustrates the bajibis out of me when we are talking to our.
kim (02:15.906)
hope that they're not thinking about is how to maintain status quo because status quo is out the window. One of the responses that frustrates the bajeebies out of me when we are talking to our companies hiring in our corporate parts, prospects, small business owners, doesn't matter what it is, if you're hiring, if you're looking to hire somebody in the future, if your response to change is, oh, we already have a process, my response to you is
angela_howard (02:31.35)
is hiring in our corporate parts prospects, small business owners, doesn't matter what it is. If you're hiring, if you're looking to hire somebody in the future, if your response to change is we already have a process, my response to you is you can't possibly still be doing the same thing. With everything that you just said, Angela, the buzzwords, I love the fact that you associated some of the things that we talked about, I was told buzzwords, because they've been around for a minute, right? The future work has been around for a minute.
kim (02:46.31)
you can't possibly still be doing the same thing. With everything that you just said Angela, the buzzwords, I love the fact that you associated some of the things that we talk about as total buzzwords because they've been around for a minute, right? The future work has been around for a minute. What does that mean? Quit saying something with like this empty context to it. So what I hope they're not doing is thinking of status quo and particularly what I always like to talk about is
angela_howard (03:00.75)
What does that mean? Quit saying something with like this empty context to it. So what I hope they're not doing is thinking of status quo and particularly what I would like to do is to make sure that we're not just saying that we're not just saying that
like to talk about is if you're doing hiring in the same way applications resumes job boards postings posting and praying and doing everything so reactive you are going to miss out on the talent of the next generation you're gonna you're gonna really struggle to help your company grow and thrive and really reach revenue and business goals or impact goals whatever they are if you
kim (03:12.574)
If you're doing hiring in the same way, applications, resumes, job boards, posting and praying and doing everything so reactive, you are going to miss out on the talent of the next generation. You're gonna really struggle to help your company grow and thrive and really reach revenue and business goals or impact goals, whatever they are. If you can't...
find a new way to think about how you bring in talent to your organization.
angela_howard (03:41.444)
find a new way to think about how you bring in talent to your organization. Yeah, that is a hundred percent right. And you know, I recently read a report Deloitte has this report that they basically every few years they publish about like the emerging generation and what they're looking for and you know, Gen Z is this
interesting generation. I'm very optimistic because they are really wholly employers accountable. They're asking, you know, what is your connection with corporate responsibility? What's your purpose? What am I going to get out of this experience? And so that's a very different way of thinking. The posting and praying is kind of an employer-centric, you know, process, right? Because it's like you would be so lucky to, you know, apply to our position.
100%. And it is one of those things, we actually, what we call it is our boomer recovery for you, right? So there's boomers that have to recover from what was into what is. And we talk about that with a lot of our clients. And you are totally right about that mindset that companies...
kim (04:37.222)
100% and it is one of those things we actually what we call it is our boomer recovery group, right? So there's boomers that have to recover from what was into what is and we talk about that with a lot of our clients and you are totally right about that mindset that companies just like you're waiting for me you're just totally waiting for me and I'm so awesome and what we have is so awesome you are awesome in an array of a thousand choices.
angela_howard (04:57.046)
just like you're waiting for me. You're just totally waiting for me and I'm so awesome. And what we have is so awesome. You are awesome in an array of a thousand choices. And if you can appreciate the complexity and variety and reach the global reach of working opportunities today for our younger adults, you can keep your own harm.
kim (05:06.394)
And if you can appreciate the complexity and variety and reach, the global reach of working opportunities today for our younger young adults, you can keep, you know, your own horn, but, but this next generation is they're not that's not how to speak to them at all.
angela_howard (05:23.694)
And this next generation is, they're not, that's not how to speak to them at all. No, no it's not. And, you know, it's, and it really brings up the point, I think, and this is really aligned to some of the work you're doing around.
preparing the future generation of the workforce, but also preparing the previous generation and helping them recover to get to this new state of transformation. So tell us a little bit more about what you're doing to kind of bridge that gap, not only in the world of work, but also how we're preparing youth from an educational standpoint, from a skill preparation standpoint.
kim (06:06.658)
Well, Angela, I want to start by saying everything we do at People Work is an individual perspective. So the individual citizen that is in our communities, what is their work life journey going to be like? What is it that they're expecting? What is it that they need? What will keep them working as work changes faster, at a faster pace than ever before? So that right there.
angela_howard (06:07.35)
Well, I want to start by saying everything we do at PeopleWork is an individual perspective. So the individual citizen that is in our communities, what is their work life journey going to be like? What is it that they're expecting? What is it that they need? What will be the next step?
keep them working as work changes faster and a faster pace than ever before. So that right there is just something to take note of. And I think it's just a continuation of your comment before. Like everything was still corporate centric. The working world was driven by a corporate first perspective. So everything we did from how we created resumes, how we evaluated the fit for work, it was all saying that me, the corporation, I'm the one that's driving this experience. And now here's this, you know,
kim (06:35.286)
is just something to take note of. And I think it's just a continuation of your comment before. Like everything was still corporate centric. The working world was driven by a corporate first perspective. So everything we did from how we created resumes, how we evaluated the fit for work, it was all saying that me, the corporation, I'm the one that's driving this experience. And now here's this flip completely saying, no, we have to be more mindful of what the individual citizen's work life
angela_howard (06:59.02)
completely saying no we have to be more mindful of what the individual citizens work life looks like and what they're interested in and just simply making that flip do you find this like amazing transition of getting the working world to connect better with the individual person based on who they are and where they're at and being able just to do that better
kim (07:04.714)
looks like and what they're interested in. And just simply making that flip, do you find this like amazing transition of getting the working world to connect better with the individual person based on who they are and where they're at? And if being able to just to do that better is baseline for making sure that you're hiring the next generation. So the technology, while we build it,
angela_howard (07:24.782)
is baseline for making sure that you're hiring the next generation. So the technology, while we build it, in order to close the skills gap, we basically get all key stakeholders together so that we can get the individual with education and the job market all in sync to make a proactive,
kim (07:31.658)
in order to close the skills gap. We basically get all key stakeholders together so that we can get the individual with education and the job market all in sync to make a proactive experience for all people. And so what does that mean? For our young adults, that means you're downloading an app.
angela_howard (07:48.854)
experience for all people. And so what does that mean? For our young adults, that means you're downloading an app and instead of saying, give me a resume based on experiences that someone may or may not have given you a chance to get, let us know who you are. What makes you tick? What are your attributes, your personality, things that you're interested in? What are your technical skills gaps? What are things you need to know? And then on the company, which is another
kim (07:54.77)
And instead of saying, give me a resume based on experiences that someone may or may not have given you a chance to get, let us know who you are. What makes you tick? What are your attributes, your personality, things that you're interested in? What are your technical skills gaps? What are things you need to know? And then on the company, which is another flip for how we've approached our working world, we're asking our companies to do the same thing.
angela_howard (08:18.466)
for how we've approached our working world. We're asking our companies to do the same thing. Before, companies would just be able to post their thesis of a job description and just, you know, now they can still get thousands of applicants, but whether or not they're really ideal matches for that job or stick or are reliable or will do all of the things that they really want that person to do.
kim (08:22.742)
Before, companies would just be able to post their thesis of a job description and just, you know, now they can still get thousands of applicants, but whether or not they're really ideal matches for that job or stick or are reliable or will do all of the things that they really want that person to do, that's proven not to be the case. But now, asking companies to also take a look like, who are you? Right? Think about your job profile more in the type of culture
angela_howard (08:40.826)
That's proven not to be the case. But now asking companies to also take a look like, who are you? Why, think about your job profile more in the type of culture, the type of attributes that you're interested in and we'll worry about the technical skills after that.
kim (08:51.478)
the type of attributes that you're interested in, and we'll worry about the technical skills after that. And then that's how we bring in the educator. So yes, we're taking a talent-centered view and giving a chance for the individual citizen to really identify who they are and drive their work-life goals through the experiences that we provide. We're also asking companies to be more mindful of what it is that they're asking for in a job, creating a job profile that's based on their...
angela_howard (08:59.246)
And then that's how we bring in the educator. So yes, we're taking a talent-centered view and giving a chance for the individual citizen to really identify who they are and drive their work-life goals through the experiences that we provide. We're also asking companies to be more mindful of what it is that they're asking for in a job, creating a job profile that's based on their company persona as well as those technical skills. And then here's the magic. When I'm...
kim (09:18.702)
company persona as well as those technical skills. And then here's the magic. When I match with somebody based on all of those soft skills or work ethic or attributes, if that person is missing a technical skill, we ask the company, are you ready to build up your talent pipeline and help this person close a technical skills gap? When they say yes,
angela_howard (09:25.818)
with somebody based on all of those soft skills or work ethic or attributes, if that person is missing a technical skill, we ask the company, are you ready to build up your talent pipeline and help this person close a technical skills gap? When they say yes, that person is already associated the value to knowledge building and education with a very specific job and companies are now able to build up.
kim (09:42.65)
person is already associated the value to knowledge building and education with a very specific job and companies are now able to build up a continuous talent pipeline and that will now get us ready for the future of work instead of us chasing you know the future of work.
angela_howard (09:54.77)
a continuous talent pipeline. And that will now get us ready for the future of work instead of us chasing the future of work.
Yes, I love that. And it puts some of the onus and accountability on employers to have a hand in this big gap, in this societal issue, societal problem, which is, you know, these skill gaps with folks. And I don't know if we have the luxury anymore to be hiring in folks who hit every mark. And I don't even know if it's necessary. So I think another piece is
You've got some organizations who are asking for X amount of education or technical skill set. In reality, you just need someone who's got real great learning agility and has a certain mix of skill set and you can train the rest. 100% agree with you 100%. I wish that more...
kim (10:48.222)
100% agree. Thank you. 100%. And I wish that more, more leaders inside of an organization would recognize how holding on to that status quo, those legacy processes, there, it's not a matter of, hey, I just don't want to try something new and I'm totally exhausted. Or maybe I have what we call is the admin hat on. You just, you don't want to disrupt something new because you're actually going to have to start to work and think through things.
angela_howard (10:54.966)
more leaders inside of an organization would recognize how holding onto that status quo, those legacy processes, there is not a matter of.
hey, I just don't want to try something new and I'm totally exhausted or maybe I have what we call is the admin hat on. You just, you don't want to disrupt something new because you're actually going to have to start to work and think through things. That is the name of the game now. And in order for companies to even come to the point that you just so succinctly said, like, hey, I just need somebody who can be resourceful, who is a thinker.
kim (11:16.122)
That is the name of the game now. And in order for companies to even come to the point that you just so succinctly said, like, hey, I just need somebody who can be resourceful, who is a thinker. Like, without something like PeopleWork, I just don't know how we would be able to close that skills gap. I mean, we just can't keep evaluating people based on exactly what you said, that 100% fit. They're not waiting. Talented are just not sitting there waiting for us to pick them anymore.
angela_howard (11:34.816)
to close that skills gap. We just can't keep evaluating people based on exactly what you said, that 100% fit. They're not waiting. Talon are just not sitting there waiting for us to pick them anymore. Right. That's just not the case.
kim (11:46.082)
That's just not the case.
angela_howard (11:49.138)
So I think from a leadership perspective, the question then is, OK, so you're going to ask me to hire in somebody who doesn't quite match the profile, but what's the success rate? So how does the technology balance the give and take of closing the gap on some skill set, but also ensuring that you're not hiring somebody, then wasting time finding someone else because they didn't work out? How does the technology work, I guess maybe is the question.
kim (11:49.614)
See you next time. Good night.
kim (12:19.894)
Well, I'll start with the simple answer. How does the technology work for our businesses? All they do is say, hey people, we're people work. We want to use you. They give us access to all of their job descriptions and we pretty much automate the rest and then they it's as simple as them Opening up their phone and swiping right and swiping left They approve their job profiles, but that's about it. They come at the time to get somebody onboarded onto the people work higher hub at most
angela_howard (12:20.592)
Well, I'll start with the simple answer. How does the technology work for our businesses? All they do is say, hey, people, we're people work. We want to use you. They give us access to all of their job descriptions and we pretty much automate the rest. And then they it's as simple as them opening up their phone is swiping right and swiping left. They approve their job profiles. But that's about it. They come the time to get somebody on boarded onto the people work higher hub.
kim (12:48.59)
is eight hours and that doesn't have to be all at once and that effort is not all on our company's hiring. But really what happens after that is within the dashboard that we provide all of our clients, it's just on demand dashboard, you can slice and dice information as you want. And it includes something that we call stickiness. So not only did this person match out of 98%, but how well did that person
angela_howard (12:49.306)
is eight hours and that doesn't have to be all at once and that effort is not all on our company's hiring. But really what happens after that is within the dashboard that we provide all of our clients, it's just on demand dashboard, you can slice and dice information as you want and it includes something that we call stickiness. But not only did this percent match at a 98%, but how well did that.
person stick within what was asked of them in the 30, 60, 90 days. And right now
kim (13:16.75)
stick within what was asked of them in the 30, 60, 90 days. And right now we're hitting over 80% sticky rate over 90 days, meaning that person is successfully doing their job. They're not just sticking because they've been hired and now there's no way out of the relationship. They have a, what we call is the honeymoon stage where the person has to pretty much show up, show up to the party, show some substance.
angela_howard (13:22.894)
over 80% sticky rate over 90 days, meaning that person is successfully doing their job. They're not just sticking because they've been hired and now there's no way out of the relationship. They have a, what we call is the honeymoon stage where the person has to pretty much show up, show up to the party, show some substance, and then 60 days, execute and measure the ability to accomplish the goals of your task or your role.
kim (13:42.474)
And then 60 days, execute and measure the ability to accomplish the goals of your task or your role. And then 90 days, I'm in. I've done what I've been asked to do. I've learned what I needed to do. I closed my skills gap and I'm starting to execute on business. And what that means for any leader is how soon can somebody contribute to either efficiencies, improve customer experience or profitability.
angela_howard (13:50.494)
And then 90 days I'm in, I've done what I've been asked to do. I've learned what I needed to do. I closed my skills gap and I'm starting to execute on business. And what that means for any leader is how soon can somebody contribute to either efficiencies, improve customer experience or profitability. And within 90 days, we're able to show that just through our process. So it isn't that we're just saying, hey, great, use this technology that's super simple, swipe right.
kim (14:10.75)
And within 90 days, we're able to show that just through our process. So it isn't that we're just saying, hey, great, use this technology that's super simple, swipe right, swipe left. We're saying we're putting up our substance into what we believe is going to be a better way of sourcing your talent. And also keep in mind Angela,
angela_howard (14:20.388)
swipe left, we're saying we're putting up our substance into what we believe is going to be a better way of sourcing your talent. And also keep in mind Angela, that this is just part of change, right? So we always work with all companies of all sizes, whether you're hiring one or 5,000 individuals in one year, whatever that means.
kim (14:31.938)
that this is just part of change, right? So we always work with all companies of all sizes, whether you're hiring one or 5,000 individuals in one year, whatever that mix is, we're encouraging you to take a change management approach to adopting people work. So you have different roles that you're gonna need. You're a super experienced person and you can't use that time to close the skills gap, but you also know what you're gonna sell six months down the road. You know what you're gonna sell nine months down the road.
angela_howard (14:42.262)
My mix is we're encouraging you to take a change management approach to adopting people work. So you have different roles that you're going to need. You know, you're a super experienced person and you can't use that time to close the skills gap. But you also know what you're going to sell six months down the road. You know what you're going to sell nine months down the road. And that's what this is all about. This is saying in order for you to start feeling less of the pain of being reactive and starting
kim (15:01.79)
And that's what this is all about. This is saying in order for you to start feeling less of the pain of being reactive and starting to build up your talent pipeline, start now and then manifest that in results three months down the road, six months down the road, then a year down the road, you're going to realize I didn't have to post and pray. I didn't have to shuffle through a thousand resumes that meant nothing to me. I didn't have to.
angela_howard (15:12.916)
start now and then manifest that in results. Three months down the road, six months down the road, then a year down the road you're going to realize I didn't have to post and pray. I didn't have to shuffle through 1000 resumes that meant nothing to me. I didn't have to have a high turn or as high of a turnover rate as I did before.
kim (15:30.05)
have a high turnover or as high of a turnover rate as I did before and it's because of X, Y and Z, right? So there's a lot of things that happen over time. So this isn't people work for all and for everything immediately. This is people work as a transition to becoming ready for the future work of work and then you become more nimble.
angela_howard (15:35.354)
and it's because of X, Y, and Z, right? So there's a lot of things that happen over time. So this isn't people work for all and for everything immediately. This is people work as a transition to becoming ready for the future work of work, and then you become more nimble. Yeah, well, you bring up a good point, which is the change management part, the adoption part of not just the technology piece, but it's also like paradigms, changing paradigms. And so what are, let's conceptually talk
about that related to the technology, but what are some paradigms that need to change? Like if you were talking to a leader and said like, these three things we can't do anymore, we've got to shift to this. What would those three things be? Oh my God.
kim (16:19.487)
Oh my gosh. Well, my very first thing of course is stop evaluating your 80% of your support roles based on the resume. It's just the worst tool on the planet. And actually it endorses a very skewed and inequitable working world. When you think about what a resume is, it's a documentation of who gave you opportunities to do what. It is not a piece of documentation that says
angela_howard (16:20.91)
Well, my very first thing, of course, is stop evaluating your 80% of your support roles based on a resume. It's just the worst tool on the planet. And actually it endorses a very skewed and inequitable working world. When you think about what a resume is, it's a documentation of who gave you opportunities to do what. It is not a piece of documentation that says, I am capable of doing all that you're asking.
kim (16:46.27)
I am capable of doing all that you're asking of doing. Totally separate questions. And so that's kind of why I'm like, the resume is a good tool for your experienced individuals, your tenure roles. You've got to figure out who's got what, but it still should not be your only metric for a point of entry into your organization. And so resume, please walk away from it, if anything else. If I were to say,
angela_howard (16:50.944)
of doing? Totally separate questions and so that's kind of why I'm like the resume is a good tool for your experienced individuals, your tenure roles, you've got to figure out who's got what but it still should not be your only metric for a point of entry into your organization. So resume, please walk away from it if anything else. If I were to say, my second one would be stop
kim (17:13.726)
My second one would be stop assuming that a job description is enough for you to describe what's needed to be done. We are in a skills-based world, a task-based world. Like, if you think about what you had to do today to prepare for your podcast, for your interviews, there's a series of tasks that you had to do. It really is as complicated as that.
angela_howard (17:22.658)
for you to describe what's needed to be done. We are in a skills-based world, a task-based world. Like, if you think about what you had to do today to prepare for your podcast, for your interviews, there's a series of tasks that you had to do. It really is as complicated as that. Instead of a job description that says, I think I wanna throw everything in the kitchen sink, and then hopefully, you know, that perfect unicorn is out there to do that. No. There is a difference
kim (17:42.686)
I think I want to throw everything in the kitchen sink and then hopefully, you know, that perfect unicorn is out there to do that. No, there is a difference between a job description and a job profile and that's within people work what we do is the job profile. Just tell me what you want done. We'll identify the technical and soft skills needed to do that task. Then tell your story. Tell that individual why you're a company worth working for.
angela_howard (17:53.192)
and a job profile and that's within people work what we do is the job profile. Just tell me what you want done. We'll identify the technical and soft skills needed to do that task then tell your story. Tell that individual why you're a company worth working for. Why you're a company that has a cultural alignment to that particular person. And then the third is like the 50 million rounds of interviews. My gosh!
kim (18:09.878)
why you're a company that has a cultural alignment to that particular person. And then the third is like the 50 million rounds of interviews, my gosh, how many people need to watch somebody just to tell you they like them? I will tell you one of the biggest pet peeves that I ever had as a chief HR officer before I started people work was somebody telling me in an interview process, oh, I like the person. Well, I'm not asking you whether or not you wanna go to dinner with them. I wanna-
angela_howard (18:20.962)
How many people need to watch somebody just to tell you they like them? I will tell you one of the biggest pet peeves that I ever had as a chief HR officer before I started people work was somebody telling me in an interview process, oh, I like the person. Well, I'm not asking you whether or not you want to go to dinner with them. I want to know if they have the technical skills to do the job. So where in the process?
kim (18:38.638)
if they have the technical skills to do the job. So where in the process, in legacy processes especially, and I'm not talking about just random skills assessments, I'm saying, I wanna know your competency, your ability to execute on what's going to drive my business forward. Great, if we're friends, awesome, but at the end of the day, I'm not paying you to be my friend. I'm paying you to do work, right? And so what may be the third, if I was to be super concise is,
angela_howard (18:44.978)
in legacy processes especially, and I'm not talking about just random skills assessments, I'm saying I want to know your competency, your ability to execute on what's going to drive my business forward.
great if we're friends awesome but at the end of the day i'm not paying you to be my friend i'm paying you to do work right and so what maybe the third if i was to be super concise is what's with the like stop saying i want to hire somebody because i like them well i think uh yeah so string in all of your answers is this idea of um objectivity and equity um
kim (19:08.854)
What's with the like? Like stop saying I wanna hire somebody because I like them.
angela_howard (19:23.83)
especially equity because your first point around the resume, I mean, it really resonated what you said about the resume being a, basically a memo about the opportunities you've been given versus your potential, your capability. And then, your third point around the likeability and the bias behind our interviewing processes. And getting back to that objectivity of,
profile is, we'll back up the capabilities and competencies needed to achieve that. And of course, there has to be, you have to, you know, behave in alignment with values, but that doesn't mean you like the person. Just because you're not bubbly, you know, it shouldn't be an issue around, you know, shouldn't be an issue with whether or not that person gets hired or not, or has an opportunity to get hired.
So I loved your answers. Well, I'll share a funny story with you, and then I'll share with you a not so funny story. When I was just starting out in my young, young days of getting an interview, I was told that I needed to straighten my hair because a curly haired person is perceived a certain way. And I was like, great, that's great.
kim (20:24.547)
I'll share a funny story with you, and then I'll share with you a not so funny story. When I was just starting out in my young, young days of getting an interview, I was told that I needed to straighten my hair because a curly haired person is perceived a certain way. And I was like, forget that, I'm just so awesome. They're gonna hire me just because I'm so awesome.
angela_howard (20:46.798)
just so awesome, they're gonna hire me just because I'm so awesome. And then after being rejected so many times, I thought, well, I'm gonna try out this theory. And I straightened my hair. And I got the job. Wow. And I was like, what the heck was that about? I'm the same person. And it wasn't necessarily about being a different company or about being a different hiring person. It was fundamentally somebody had a particular viewpoint of a person with curly hair. I don't know.
kim (20:49.558)
And then after being rejected so many times, I thought, well, I'm going to try out this theory. And I straightened my hair and I got the job.
And I was like, what the heck was that about? I'm the same person. And it wasn't necessarily about being a different company or about being a different hiring person. It was fundamentally somebody had a particular viewpoint of a person with curly hair. I don't know what it was, but it could be as simple as that. Now flip to today's climate where we have people that are doing the swing of that pendulum.
angela_howard (21:17.158)
but it could be as simple as that. Now flip to today's climate where we have people that are doing the swing of that pendulum and racial targeting people for hiring and excluding other races because they're now trying to catch up for, I'll just say their inability in the past to hire equitably.
kim (21:26.286)
and racial targeting people for hiring and excluding other races because they're now trying to catch up for, I'll just say, their inability in the past to hire equitably. So they're just like scrambling. And that's okay. Everyone has to catch up. And we're glad that people are wanting to catch up. But one of the big features of people work is the blind matching.
angela_howard (21:41.554)
So they were just like scrambling and that's okay. Everyone has to catch up and we're glad that people are wanting to catch up. But one of the big features of people work is the blind matching. Companies do not get to self select and resume shuffle and set themselves up for adverse selection organically. And I love this about the way that we've designed the technology organically.
kim (21:51.426)
Companies do not get to self-select and resume shuffle and set themselves up for adverse selection. Organically, and I love this about the way that we've designed the technology, organically diverse in thought and equitable working opportunities and inclusive personas just come to the surface. I mean, it's just awesome. So it's like, okay, great, we're trying to balance this out and we're trying to make sure that
angela_howard (22:06.262)
diverse in thoughts and equitable working opportunities and inclusive personas just come to the surface. I mean it's just it's just awesome. So it's like okay great you know we're trying to balance this out and we're trying to make sure that all individuals get a chance to come up where we're now in an area.
kim (22:21.158)
all individuals get a chance to come up where we're now in an era where we don't want to limit people based on any external characteristics, but we also don't want to set up the adverse of that and now self-select and racial target and racial profile and then what the consequences of that will be is even more catastrophic. If you put somebody into a role that isn't ready for a role,
angela_howard (22:27.342)
We don't want to limit people based on any external characteristics. But we also don't want to set up the adverse of that and now self-selecting racial target and racial profile and then what the consequences of that will be is even more catastrophic. If you put somebody into a role that isn't ready for a role or if you haven't set them up for a skills development path like what we do on people work.
kim (22:46.762)
or if you haven't set them up for a skills development path, like what we do on people work, you're not setting up good confidence within the company for the decisions that you've made, right? So I am beyond passionate about creating an equitable working world. And I love that that's a byproduct of the way that the technology functions. And I do hope that more tech, more companies do start to get that aha moment.
angela_howard (22:53.254)
You're not setting up good confidence within the company for the decisions that you've made, right? So I am beyond passionate about creating an equitable working world. And I love that that's a byproduct of the way that the technology functions. And I do hope that more tech, more companies do start to get that aha moment. And we don't miss this opportunity to really be like, yes, we did it and we did it well. And now we get to be in a space where
kim (23:13.762)
And we don't miss this opportunity to really be like, yes, we did it and we did it well. And now we get to be in a space where this person doesn't look like me and doesn't think like me. And because of those things, even though we may not like each other, we're driving business goals forward. We're driving change forward. We're driving impact forward, right? So that's what I aspire to have happen out of, at the end of the day, out of all this conversation, because it is humanly possible to make these changes happen. I just hope that everyone sees that.
angela_howard (23:22.486)
this person doesn't look like me and doesn't think like me. And because of those things, even though we may not like each other, we're driving business goals forward. We're driving change forward. We're driving impact forward, right? So that's what I aspire to have happen out of, you know, at the end of the day, I'm on all this conversation because it is humanly possible to make these changes happen. I just hope that everyone sees that.
I love it and I'm so grateful for the work you and your team are doing around that. From one curly head gal to another, you know, this idea of professional, you know, this miscellaneous bucket of professionalism, executive presence, all these bias riddled things that we just need to...
kim (23:53.269)
So.
angela_howard (24:04.314)
forget about at this point and the fact that your tool ensures that you're really getting objective. When we talk about professionalism, what does that mean? How does that align to your values? What does somebody's, you know, whether their hair is straight or curly, anything to do with any of that? So I just, I love this conversation. I love the really practical tips that you've provided to us and the folks who are listening around, you know, obviously everybody should reach out
kim (24:21.356)
Yeah.
angela_howard (24:35.128)
and check out the tool, but also there's some conceptual things that we can work on, which is denying some of the traditions that haven't served all people, or all people in all skill sets. And you all are doing some fantastic work around that. So thank you. Well, thank you. I hope that we get to come back to the podcast next year and be like, this is all you-
kim (24:52.406)
Well, thank you. I hope that we get to come back to the podcast next year and be like, this was all the impact we made and these are all the companies that we did. I mean, it would just be a great follow up conversation to have.
angela_howard (24:58.066)
This is one of the companies that we did. I mean, it would just be a great follow-up conversation. I would absolutely love that. And I'm sure we're going to be in an even different place next year. So I would welcome that. We would love to have you again and provide an update, because the world of work is changing quickly. And we've got to ride this wave. But there's also some things that have been happening for a while that are starting to bubble up. And so we've got to balance both of those things.
I think. Yeah, agree. I agree, Angela. Awesome. Well, Kim, it was fantastic chatting with you. Like I said, we'd love to have you back on the podcast and just thank you for sharing all your insights and your knowledge with us today. Well, thank you. I hope it was as fun for everyone listening as it was for me to be a part of it. I'm sure it was. Thank you, Kim.
kim (25:28.554)
Yeah, I agree. I agree, Angela.
kim (25:42.07)
Well, thank you. I hope it was as fun for everyone listening as it was for me to be a part of it.
