Leading Bold DEI Conversations with Valerie Williams
angela_r_howard (00:01.719)
Hey, Valerie, welcome to the podcast. It's so good to have you on. Happy Thursday. Yes, it's super, I know you're in LA, but I'm looking outside my window right now and it's rainy and gloomy in Chicago. I think fall is on its way. And I know this has been a long time coming because we had a really great conversation a few months ago. We...
valerie_williams (00:05.558)
Thank you so much for having me, Angela. So good to see you. Happy Thursday.
valerie_williams (00:20.992)
It's upon us. Yeah. It's knocking on the door.
angela_r_howard (00:30.259)
I had met through a mutual friend and just I was so inspired by the work you're doing and in the culture and DE&I space, which I actually see as the same thing. So I'll just say in the workplace culture space. So tell us a little bit more about you, what you do, and then also the impact you're looking to make on the world.
valerie_williams (00:43.213)
Mm-hmm.
valerie_williams (00:50.894)
I love that question and really appreciative of the time to be here. I manage an organization called Converge and I created Converge a few years ago to really think about DE and I at scale. I was working at various tech companies. I worked at Airbnb and Stripe where I helped start a lot of their foundational DEI programs.
And I found that we really just needed to have a conversation earlier in an employee life cycle. So a lot of the clients we work with that converge are venture backed tech startups, a hundred employees, 50 employees, you know, how do we start embedding really high quality mindsets and behaviors early so that as you do grow in scale of an organization, they grow with you. So that's what we do at Converge. It primarily, um,
comes out in the form of strategy and planning and implementation support. And we do quite a bit of education as well. So that's a little bit about me and Convert.
angela_r_howard (01:55.327)
Yeah, what about your impact to the world? What's your personal mission? I'm sure it's connected to the company.
valerie_williams (02:00.146)
That's right. That's right. The actual impact question, which I did not answer. Really the impact, my personal purpose is to be a vessel for change and transformation. I happen to do that a lot in the workplace, but in general, that's my personal purpose. And so what that means right now for Converge is certainly helping those organizations and our
What's been more exciting, we talked a little bit about this earlier, is about the ability to support people doing this work, to pour into practitioners, to bring us together collectively so that we can again scale the work that we're doing in a way that really does shift the workplace. So that's the impact I want to have through Converse, through my purpose, is to create an army of practitioners that is out here really making it happen.
angela_r_howard (02:59.627)
Yes, I love that. And I think it's such a, I mean, the timing of this work, obviously was always, but I think we are seeing a lot of organizations kind of higher up around DE&I, right? So like your chief diversity officer, your creating committees.
valerie_williams (03:00.846)
I'm sorry.
valerie_williams (03:20.2)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (03:26.891)
And so what are some of the things that you are teaching your army of practitioners, the people who are champions for this work and maybe going into organizations to help with this work? How do you make sure it's sustainable so that those people don't burn out along the way?
valerie_williams (03:43.866)
Oh, such a good question. And I mean, to your point around sustainability and like what has happened with the hiring of DEI practitioners, certainly since the murder of George Floyd, we've seen an uptick in those hiring and we've seen an uptick to your point on those DEI committees. But now two years later, everyone's like, what have we actually done?
angela_r_howard (04:08.579)
Mm.
valerie_williams (04:09.518)
committee members are like, okay, like we've been talking about it. What have we actually done? And what we're seeing is that one, when you're designing committees with people that are passionate about the work, don't have decision-making rights or autonomy or the ability to actually influence change in an organization, that's really where the root of the frustration is sitting. And so what we're trying to help practitioners and organizations think through is, okay, how do we really
structure our whole DEI ecosystem that may include employees that are passionate, but it should include some specialists that can help us with our specific areas of focus for our DEI plan as well. And just really understanding and getting clear on roles and responsibility and decision making rights. So we do a lot of strategic planning. We do a lot of really level setting and building alignment. And that I think is really, really important.
an important element of change management for DEI.
angela_r_howard (05:09.775)
Yeah, I think that's the key is really the, you know, ensuring that it's kind of baked into every level in the organization and the alignment is at every level, because I do think there is this tendency to hand it off, right, like that's the DE and I its committee's job, or, you know, really at the end of the day, that committee should really be a way to align on strategy.
bake it into strategy, but you have to be working, I think, at all levels, especially that leadership executive level to ensure it's sustainable. And in a way, like the way that I kind of think about it is you should be working that committee out of a job. That committee, yes. Yes, the goal should be those people should be working themselves out of a job. So it's baking to the culture. I can't speak today.
valerie_williams (05:37.182)
Mm-hmm.
valerie_williams (05:45.806)
That's right.
valerie_williams (05:51.126)
Cure it. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (06:03.143)
It is based into the cultural fabric of the organization. I'm sorry.
valerie_williams (06:07.31)
That's you. So you're so right though. It has to be institutionalized. And so many people keep it programmatic and connected to an individual. Like, no, like you want a committee can suggest that your company does a pay equity audit, but your HR team has to institutionalize that they do that on an annual basis. You don't have the ability to do that, but that needs to live in your organization. So it's really about taking it out of our brains and really institutionalize it in our
practices, our processes. That's really what inclusion is. We define inclusion as setting the intentional creation of conditions, because it's really about the conditions so that people can thrive and feel that sense of value and belonging, but the conditions are our norms, how we do things, our processes, our practices. So we really got to get deep into those.
angela_r_howard (06:56.203)
Oh yeah, I love what you're saying and it's so true. And I think a lot of times like what I'm working with and you probably experienced the same thing being in this field, working with executives who or stakeholders who are coming to you and saying, hey, we need DE&I, help us do DE&I, right? And then you, it's funny because, you know, I'll start cause I have, I know you have a, I think a diagnostic too but you know, we go through this process of discovery.
And we ask a lot of questions. And sometimes I'll ask questions like, you know, what are some of the future capabilities that we need to achieve our strategic plan? How well aligned is diversity to our strategic plan? And I get a lot of questions like, why are you asking questions about the strategic plan? And I was like, because this is strategy, this is culture. So, but I think so many people, like I get so much pushback on those types of questions because like we should be talking about DE and I, and they think I'm gonna ask a question like,
valerie_williams (07:39.042)
What?
valerie_williams (07:44.174)
All right.
angela_r_howard (07:52.863)
Are we diverse enough? Or what workshop should we be implementing to create more diversity? And it's like, you're missing it.
valerie_williams (07:59.458)
Brian?
valerie_williams (08:04.326)
It's so, it boggles me, honestly. We created, we have a conversation with leadership teams called Start Read The Why, and we're iterating because we're trying to figure out what are the right questions to help people really get to understanding the why behind the work, because it is, I think people go to hiring or they go to like something place, but it's like, it is connected to your business priorities, let's really tease it out. Let's talk about why it is. And it's just, it's like.
Get clear on your objectives. What are we solving for? We gotta do discovery so that we know what we're solving for. We're not just gonna do a program. So, I'm on the soapbox now. Ha ha ha.
angela_r_howard (08:42.775)
Yes. But I think the big underline for me is, and you mentioned it earlier, which is you can focus on diversity. You could focus on promoting people into leadership roles. You can focus on bringing people into the organization. But if the conditions are not inclusive, then you are, the sequencing isn't right. And I think sometimes the sequencing always starts with diversity.
valerie_williams (09:08.61)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (09:11.903)
And I think this other perception of diverse hires, right? Where it's like, no, diversity is the condition. It's everybody together. Let's not focus on diverse hires. Let's focus on what is the makeup of our organization to ensure that it's, it is contributing and matching to our customer base and to the rest of the country and to the rest of the world, and it's not just about race or gender or the things you can see.
valerie_williams (09:12.098)
I love you.
valerie_williams (09:35.2)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (09:39.679)
So I think it's so multi-layered and intersectional that People struggle and they want to they want to create some black and white or you know black and white around it, right? There's a lot of gray. There's a lot of gray
valerie_williams (09:49.186)
Congrats! Yes.
think they're so right. And I think maybe as practitioners, we, we try to set, it's hard to like explain the complexity of the space. I mean, people feel the complexity of the space. And, you know, as business people, we do try to make it very black and white, black and white, like, give, tell me what to do. I'll do it. Did we do it? Cool. Right. People are messy. Humans are messy. Right. And so
angela_r_howard (10:13.143)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (10:17.763)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
valerie_williams (10:20.538)
It's one of those things to where you have to be as specific as possible when you're trying to measure impact and as tangible as possible when you're trying to measure impact. We all believe in data and we all believe in being able to tangibly do those things, but you can't ignore the human element of it. Because it is a human-driven function and initiative, it's always going to be messy.
it's always going to be imperfect. And I think we can do a better job of setting that expectation, even as we're designing strategy. What we've tried to say now is like, this is art and science. We're designing, right? Like, this is a design. And we should have fun with the design. It doesn't mean we're always going to get it right. And that's OK. That's OK. Yeah.
angela_r_howard (11:15.719)
Yeah, and I would love to kind of talk a little bit about, you know, practitioners, champions of this work. You know, if you are listening to this podcast and you are somebody who is leading the charge around DE&I or culture at your organization, how do we take care of those people? How do we just like give them a hug? Because I feel like I feel like we need one. And, you know, I'm sure with some of the coaching that you're doing with
valerie_williams (11:38.003)
Yeah
angela_r_howard (11:45.111)
practitioners, there's got to be, I mean, you're kind of to your point, it's art and science. So, you know, you're, you're a technical expert, someone who has expertise in the space, but you also have to have a lot of influencing skills. You have to deal with a lot of pushback, stakeholder management, like the whole change management piece. And then there's a lot of, you know, what I've noticed, just my own personal story is, you know, I've decided I have a threshold because
valerie_williams (12:14.007)
Mmm.
angela_r_howard (12:16.235)
I am going to do my best, you know, if I'm hired to work with an organization to help you change your culture, I'm going to challenge you, I'm going to put tough truths in front of you, and there are going to be things you might not want to hear, and they might be personal to you, or they might be, you know, significant things that we need to fix as an organization that are hard to do. And you know, I do a much better job of vetting my clients now, but in the beginning, I'm
I would feel broken sometimes by the end of working with an organization because they didn't want to hear what I had to say. Or we'd get to the end of the process, like, okay, that's nice. We're going to do this workshop and we'll be good. And it just broke me because my whole existence is around making an impact and to change things. So how do you help with helping practitioners create that threshold?
valerie_williams (13:00.5)
Hmm
valerie_williams (13:04.4)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (13:12.523)
healing kind of individually because to walk away from that is kind of like, it feels like death a little bit. It's like you have to kind of like accept it and then, you know, like rumble with it a little bit and then at some point let it go. So is anything else? Does anyone else feel like that?
valerie_williams (13:20.782)
I'm sorry.
valerie_williams (13:29.363)
Mm-hmm.
I just, there's, you covered so much. I was like, I should have taken all the notes of what I wanted to say, but it's just, how do we, there's so much there. I think first there's on just DEI practitioner support, right? Like I think we, we thrive in community. We are community people. And so I think the first thing is find your tribe, even if it's a person or a group of people where you can really lean in and.
even if it's just venting and letting off in a confidential way, because we won't say anything about our clients, but just being able to talk through things that you're working through. So first, find your tribe. Two, find the things that make you happy and love, like have daily fun, have daily laughter, because again, the work that we do is so, can be so heavy, can be so daunting. We're trying to make as much impact as possible. Sometimes it lands, sometimes it doesn't.
Um, I think the other element of what you're talking about is really around, um, impact to clients and what do, how do you define impact? So, you know, if you feel like your impact is based on their measures of impact, it may be different than if you define your own measure of impact. So when I first started out, I was like, I know I can be valuable.
I know that my experience can be valuable to other organizations. So let me just go and try to be valuable and learn about what I'm, what I'm great at, what I want to continue investing in. And I think that's what will help you on service offerings and getting really clear on your particular thing to offer to the space. So for new practitioners out there, just really try to be as impactful as possible.
angela_r_howard (15:15.029)
Hmm.
valerie_williams (15:23.41)
And then I think that will help with thinking through how you can create the most impact for yourself. But I think the key is really defining impact by yourself and not really letting the client put that on you. Because it's like there's so much outside of your control. So, yeah.
angela_r_howard (15:41.639)
Yes. Yeah, that is that is certainly a realization that I've had in this space. And, you know, at what point do you go from taking it personally and, you know, your own personal impact or your business's impact to. You know what? I've run through this criteria that, you know, for me, impact is, you know, doing the work.
right, doing the research, talking to all levels within the organization. It looks like data. It looks like hard truths and reality checks and working through the emotions with the executives when they get those results being, you know, being a source of challenge and truth, but also healing because I do think again, everyone's on their own journey. So.
valerie_williams (16:19.489)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (16:35.167)
Nobody wants to be damaging, or most people don't want to be damaging or harmful to other human beings. We don't wake up every morning and say, I want my bias to be harmful to somebody, or I want to create a psychologically unsafe space. But my goal is to create a story and a narrative to say, but you are, and this is how. And let's think about some things that we can do to implement at an individual level, but also a systematic level.
valerie_williams (16:40.3)
Mm-hmm.
valerie_williams (16:55.49)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (17:04.011)
So yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think you have to define your own measure of success. And what do you think makes, if you think about a practitioner's impact, what are some things that you've seen just with your own practice, with working with other consultants and practitioners, what makes them most impactful? What are some characteristics that you think are important to practice and build muscle around?
valerie_williams (17:04.182)
Absolutely.
valerie_williams (17:29.95)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, to your point, like at Converge, we operate a little bit like a collective. And so I have the beauty of working with people that have their own practices and also providing space for people to grow their careers through working with our clients. So it's really, really great. We also do group coaching with our practitioners for our different clients. And so we have group coaching circles. And, you know, some of the things that I see that make practitioners really stand out and work really well is,
angela_r_howard (17:35.607)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (17:44.522)
Mm-hmm.
valerie_williams (17:59.81)
first the ability to keep the 30,000 level view, right? Like if you're an in-house DEI practitioner, you're gonna be pulled in like 75 million directions every day, right? And so your ability to always come back to your strategy, always come back to your why is key. Like this is what we're doing, this is the top level, is this adding to the strategic vision or not? Because if you start to get distracted, you start to poke holes in...
what you're able to actually draw that impact that you're looking for, you got to stay focused. So I think one, stay strategic as possible. Don't let them pull you too much into programmatic. I think two, you mentioned this a little bit earlier, but the ability to influence and the stakeholder management and the ability to meet different audiences at different places and understanding around DEI is super important.
So those might be two things, the ability to influence and being able to meet people where they are in their understanding and carry them forward. And then, man, it's just resilience, you know? It's like, you know, we all go through those periods of burnout. I tell people now, I actually take quarterly breaks. Like there's no annual trip for me.
angela_r_howard (19:07.631)
Thank you.
angela_r_howard (19:17.443)
Good for you, yeah.
valerie_williams (19:19.414)
I'm like, as practitioners, we need like a week off every quarter, at least, like to just completely unplug for the work. If you are in a place where you can do that with your career and your business, I highly recommend it because we absorb so much energy, um, from other people and what's happening in workplaces that we just need time to decompress. So those are some of the things that I think make us, uh, helpful. Lastly, what we do a lot in our coaching circles is to actively unblock and brainstorm together. So
What I love about Converge is that we get to, like I get to bring all these beautiful brains together and then we can say, okay, what about this? What about that? What about that? And that's really the power of diversity, right? Like you can bring these different experiences to really design really unique solutions for your client. So, yeah.
angela_r_howard (19:53.32)
No.
angela_r_howard (20:04.479)
Yes, I love that. The only other thing I would add on to that is, DE&I experts are really just, I think, change experts and at their core, right? And I think a lot of times, I've talked to multiple people.
valerie_williams (20:20.011)
Mmm.
valerie_williams (20:23.374)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (20:28.135)
usually white men who like acknowledge that they're privileged and entitled and all these things and they say, you know, I'm the last person you should be asking about DE&I. That's like, that's not true. I think there's this perception of to be a DE&I practitioner, you've got to look like you or me. And I guess we have lived experiences that contribute to the conversation, but everyone should be.
valerie_williams (20:37.415)
Any further?
Not true.
valerie_williams (20:52.822)
Yeah.
angela_r_howard (20:57.979)
skilled at them. Yes! When people say that, I'm like, please tell me more about what you mean because I think you can contribute to this. You could absolutely be a DE and I practitioner.
valerie_williams (20:58.088)
We need everyone.
valerie_williams (21:09.434)
We need, guess what, white man, we need you in the conversation. Okay. Because you have traditionally been in the seat of power and what we're asking you to do is to acknowledge that and then to start giving up seats, you know? And so we need you in the conversation. I literally, someone said that in a meeting to me earlier today, literally like I'm a white man, so I don't know. And I think that that's why one of our operating principles is like, we meet people where they are and not where we think they should be and.
It's okay. We need everybody in the world. We have white women working for us at Converge. We have, you know, white people can do DEI work, by the way. I know everybody wanted to hire a person of color for their DEI person, but like, it really is a function where there's people can bring so many different perspectives to work. Right. And so I think as long as you are through the work.
centering the needs of the people being experiencing the most harm, anybody can really be impactful in that way.
angela_r_howard (22:13.311)
Yeah, and I think it's about, you know, to your point, everybody was hiring people of color or women into DE&I roles. And I really think the skill is to acknowledge the different voices that need to be in the conversation. It's about bringing people together, it's about creating community, it's about influencing, it's change management. And anybody can do that.
As long as they're tapping the shoulder of people who don't look like them to make sure that they're learning along the way and unlearning along the way, I think that's the important piece. And so I really don't want to hear another person tell me that they can't do DE&I work because they don't have the lived experience of someone who looks like me. I think everyone needs to be a part of this work. And we have to acknowledge when we're looking around a room and say, we're missing voices.
We're missing important perspective here. So I just love this conversation. Right?
valerie_williams (23:10.574)
That's right.
valerie_williams (23:14.946)
And that's what we mean, me too, me too. I mean, that's what we mean by the concept of allyship, right? Like, that's why we need allies. And it's like, we are black women, or women of color. And we, like, when we talk about allyship, I'm like, I am an able-bodied woman of color. I can show up as an ally for a person that may have a visible or invisible disability, just as easily as a white person can show up for me as a black woman in certain contexts.
I think people just need to really call themselves an ally, but really it's about leveraging your societal positioning to help other people. And so therefore invest, anybody can actually do this work if you really, really invest in it.
angela_r_howard (24:02.263)
Yes, I call myself an aspiring ally all the time because I think that's, if you are an ally, you are an aspiring ally. I don't think you can call yourself an ally until the people you are being an ally for call you an ally. So I'm always learning and unlearning. And as practitioners, I think the work that you're doing at Converge around bringing this collective together and nourishing them, giving them opportunities, healing them.
valerie_williams (24:09.527)
That's right.
valerie_williams (24:16.366)
That's right.
valerie_williams (24:22.512)
Thanks for watching.
valerie_williams (24:31.214)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (24:31.331)
Coaching them, I think, is such important work because it is going to make this work more sustainable. And I think if we can all adopt the mentality that we're trying to work ourselves out of a job and trying to really instill this with leaders, with people who have decision-making rights within organizations, into the cultural fabric of the organization, I think we will hopefully start to move the needle on some of this work because...
valerie_williams (24:36.351)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (24:59.959)
What we were doing in the past was not working. And now everyone's burnt out.
valerie_williams (25:04.483)
That's right. That's right. It has to be institutional, Angela. It has to be out of the individual hands and really woven into a fabric of an organization. So absolutely. And you do that by looking again, how you do things, look at your practices, look at those processes, look really critical eye on those things. And I think that's really the core of what we're trying to do here.
angela_r_howard (25:30.827)
I just wanted to add something because it comes to mind, which I think a lot of us are focused on how do we create inclusive environments? Where the conversations come to a head is when we reverse it, right? Which is like what practices are exclusive? And I think that is oftentimes what, at least I find with some of my conversations, kind of switches the
valerie_williams (25:48.15)
Hmm.
valerie_williams (25:52.424)
Mmm.
valerie_williams (26:00.558)
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
angela_r_howard (26:01.335)
which is the conversation a little bit, because I think inclusion has such a, I don't know, there's such a mental model around it. It's like, we're asking people their opinions, like all those things are really important, but it's like, what are you doing that's actually excluding people? How are you communicating? Who has the information? What's the social network look like? Do you have multiple layers of leadership? Do you have in-groups and out-groups? Like those are actual business practices that can create exclusion. So,
valerie_williams (26:03.467)
Mm-hmm.
valerie_williams (26:08.639)
I'm really hungry.
valerie_williams (26:15.297)
Mm-hmm.
valerie_williams (26:21.231)
Mm-hmm.
valerie_williams (26:25.07)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (26:31.271)
I think that's another point where I think leaders need to realize it's not just about adding inclusion, it's dismantling systems of exclusion at your company.
valerie_williams (26:33.751)
Yeah.
valerie_williams (26:40.084)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Oh, such a good reframe, such a good reframe. Cause inclusion can be kind of nebulous, right? Like we have the research that's been done by different bodies on like factors of inclusion. And we know different things like voice and decision making and all of those things lead to inclusion, at least in a sentiment of inclusion. But to reframe it for exclusion is really, I think feels a little bit more actionable or at least helpful with discovery.
angela_r_howard (26:50.851)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (27:00.041)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (27:10.819)
Hmm.
valerie_williams (27:14.422)
to say, where are we to your point, including people. So love that refrain, love it, love it, love it. Yes.
angela_r_howard (27:20.715)
Yes, I love this conversation. I love everything about what you're doing. And I just want to thank you. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you for creating the space with me to have this conversation. And I think for people who are listening, practitioners, people who are focused on DE&I, which should be everybody, by the way, at some point, I'm hoping everyone will listen to this and feel like, yes, I'm a DE&I practitioner. I think it creates some space for healing and really working through.
valerie_williams (27:40.344)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (27:50.135)
like muscling up on the skills that we need to continue to do this work, take care of ourselves and still be impactful to others.
valerie_williams (27:57.01)
Absolutely. Thank you for providing this space and for this, your podcast and your conversations. I think I really love that you're just dialoguing with people that are out there doing the work. I think we need to elevate these stories and these best practices that people are finding in their pockets of work. So thank you for the platform and for what you're doing here.
angela_r_howard (28:20.912)
Thank you so much, Valerie.
valerie_williams (28:22.762)
Yes.
