Web3 & Decentralized Work with Josh Drean

josh_drean (00:01.855)

All right, welcome to the podcast. We're here today with Angela R Howard and myself, Joshua Dreen.

angela_r_howard (00:10.894)

I feel like your voice is matching my voice.

josh_drean (00:16.399)

Oh, well, I'm just so glad to be here. I'm taking over the introduction responsibilities from Angela Howard today. I am Josh Drain, who works very closely with Angela behind the scenes on her podcast, helping her produce that. And today we're doing an episode together.

angela_r_howard (00:34.886)

Woo, I love it. Oh my gosh, it's so weird for someone else to open up the intro, but I love it. I need more Josh Dreen takeovers in my life. So for those of you who have been listening to the podcast for a while, there is a significant amount of work that goes into editing, producing, putting the magic to the episodes, and that's Josh and his team at Josh Dreen Media.

I dream media, excuse me. And so on top of that, Josh is an expert in reimagining work and it just so happens that he also works on my podcast. So I'm excited to welcome you finally to the front of the stage. I know you do all the behind-the-scenes stuff, but it's nice to have this conversation with you because we've had so many conversations offline about re-envisioning and re-imagining work. So looking forward to it.

josh_drean (01:31.407)

Well, thank you for having me. And yes, it feels like I've been a part of these conversations, the fly on the wall. And I will say that you are providing brilliant content that is so easy for me to put together and launch into the world and get excited about it because it's something that we need to hear. And it's refreshing to hear the way you talk about these things and give us a little kick in the butt to make sure that we're social responsibility at work. It's a big deal.

angela_r_howard (01:58.012)

Mmm.

angela_r_howard (02:02.29)

I love it. I love it. Well, thank you for agreeing to be on. We've been talking about recording an episode for a while. But one of the things that I was hoping we could talk about is really about your perspective, your philosophy, your I'll call it a hypothesis, your theories on what work will look like in the future. And I'm not talking about the future of work, because I think the future of work brings connotations around things that are happening now.

Right? Like hybrid work. Like it's here. Or why we need to talk about equity within the context of social responsibility and sustainability at work. Like all those things, I think we're calling these things a future of work, but it's things that we need to be doing now, which is really what caused the change of the name of this podcast, kind of more action-oriented. So it was kind of refreshing to hear your perspective about

re-envisioning what work will look like in the future. I'm not calling it the future of work. Because this is like the next level. And it's also an area that I'm not super familiar with. So Web3, the metaverse, AI, all these things are going to have an impact on how we work. And so maybe just give us an overview of what your stance is and your philosophy is. And wanna kind of unpack that with you and understand.

what that means for progress in the world of work, but also where there might be some kind of question marks and maybe some things that might relate to ethics and social responsibility. So, tell us your perspective and then we'll jump into the implications.

josh_drean (03:46.543)

Oh, absolutely. And thanks again so much for having me, Angela. I feel like we have so many conversations on the side as friends and as people who are curious about this space. And now to do it in some sort of formal capacity is just an honor. Dream Media is something that I am passionate about and do on the side because I love working with impassioned individuals like yourself. I also am a Web 3 advisor at the Harvard Innovation Labs, which is a place for young Harvard entrepreneurs to build what they feel is going to be the future.

angela_r_howard (03:53.121)

Yeah.

josh_drean (04:15.543)

These are young, next-level Mark Zuckerberg individuals who are very passionate about Web3 technologies. So I get to spend a lot of time working with them on what work currently looks like, and where it's headed, giving them the resources that they need to build the worlds that they want. I am also a core contributor at Sowork, the workplace metaverse, which is a platform that is building a Web3 metaverse platform for work. And it's in...

angela_r_howard (04:19.331)

Hmm.

josh_drean (04:44.527)

incredibly exciting because it is birthed out of real-world employee pains that they're experiencing today. I think that you don't have to look too far into what is the metaverse. What is Web3? What does all this technology mean? We can look at the current real world pains that employees are feeling and look at how these technologies are solving them. Because that is...

What's fascinating to me, the pandemic shed light on the fact that we can do remote slash hybrid work really well. The problem is we got stuck with uninspiring tech. I mean, Zoom fatigue, being slack bombed, the removing of anything that we liked about work, which was the human element connecting with our friends, the spontaneous chats that we had that actually ended up being extremely productive. We lost all of that. And so the theory is,

angela_r_howard (05:21.646)

Hmm

josh_drean (05:40.835)

The metaverse, as crazy as we envisioned it with AR, VR goggles and taking orders from our hologram boss and having them track all of our productivity because now they have all the metrics.

That's not what we're talking about. The metaverse will, yes, be more digital, but it also will reclaim a lot of the human elements that we lack, and it will do it in a way that we've never seen before. And that's where I think employee pains will be solved, where I don't really like going to the office. I don't like having a nine to five. I don't like a boss micromanaging me. I don't like the company culture. And so today employees are leaving.

angela_r_howard (06:21.645)

Hmm.

josh_drean (06:24.067)

for other employment opportunities, tomorrow they're gonna leave for crypto networks in the metaverse.

angela_r_howard (06:31.358)

Okay, so tell us more about this idea of crypto networks. I kind of get an idea, like when you talk about the VR and all that, to me that I kind of can envision it. I've been in environments, I've actually spoke at organizations who, I created an avatar, right? And I go in, I get to interact. You and I have talked through the SoWork platform. So crypto networks, zero idea what that is. And I'm sure there's people who are listening who are like,

What is it? So tell us how that interacts.

josh_drean (07:04.235)

Yeah, that's a really great question. And to start, right, let's... We won't start all the way back to like, let's define the metaverse, because everyone likes to do that and everyone has their own definition that doesn't really work. The power of these future technologies and the reason why people are calling it Web 3 is because of decentralization. That's what we're talking about. We currently live in a centralized world where there is...

A few decision makers, a few shareholders who disseminate information through sometimes a fairly long organizational chart down to frontline workers and frontline workers simply implement what they are told to do. And if they don't like that, they can get out because there's someone next in line who's willing to do that. There are a lot of

pains that employees are feeling in terms of like, I am generating a massive amount of value potentially for an organization and all I get out of it is a paycheck. So at the end of the day, what we're trying to say is Web3 Technologies, when I say a DAO or a decentralized autonomous organization, sits on a smart contract that is linked to the blockchain. And we start getting technical about all these terms.

That doesn't matter as much as the fact that like, hey, now you as a core contributor have greater ownership, autonomy, flexibility in the work that you do to where you actually get to be a decision maker. You actually get to own the value that you generate instead of giving it up to a few shareholders. So I believe the big shift is not that we're going to be wearing goggles.

angela_r_howard (08:55.502)

I'm going to go to bed.

josh_drean (08:55.555)

We're going to be wearing AR, VR goggles, but that we will be, we'll have much more, I hate using the word flexibility because it has a term around like the numbers, but it's, we get to contribute to an ecosystem in a way that makes sense to us, in a way that makes us happy and it cuts out 90% of the things that we hate in a traditional corporate environment.

angela_r_howard (09:07.504)

Mm.

angela_r_howard (09:22.306)

So in theory, what it sounds like, and using my own words here, but it sounds like, you know, I'm a consultant, right? So, you know, when I work with a client, we decide, like, what is the scope of work? We define what are the expectations, and I, you know, get paid based on what I'm delivering, what I promise to deliver. And it's kind of a moment in time where we say, yes, let's be partners, you are bringing value.

I'm going to receive that value and this is what the cost of that value is. And it sounds like, you know, really it's kind of a gig economy, kind of talent marketplace type of feel. Is that accurate? Am I on the right track?

josh_drean (10:06.935)

Yeah, so these platforms are a really great like web 2.5 version, right? There are so many examples of what this could potentially be in little micro ecosystems today. So when you talk about Uber, that is a decentralized system. You can log in whenever you want and start working immediately. There's very little oversight. There's no boss there. They've already figured out the system to where you can just go and you can drive and you can do your thing.

angela_r_howard (10:23.32)

Hmm.

josh_drean (10:36.139)

The problem still with these centralized systems is they need to take a large cut of your value so they can keep the lights on. But Uber or YouTube, which kind of introduced us to the anything economy, you can make a video on anything you want, just like monetize it and you can make money. In theory, if you do it well enough and get an audience, you can make great money doing that. Again, YouTube will take a large cut of that. So how do we put the power?

and the value back into the hands of the contributor. And I think the talent marketplace is the Uber and the YouTube of work today because it exists to do a lot of really exciting things internally at an organization, but applied to the labor market, like it doesn't have to be internal. It can be across the entire globe. And now you don't have to work for one company that is implementing a talent marketplace in a great way.

angela_r_howard (11:08.503)

Hmm.

josh_drean (11:33.559)

You can work for several DAOs and mix and match different streams of income. And, you know, a web three version of Upwork would be, yes, I'm a freelancer and I want to go out and do my own thing, but like, it takes so much work and it's extremely competitive and it's just not worth it when you could just go get a full-time job, it will be worth it soon. And people will say, Hey, full-time job. It's not satisfying. And that's the problem with all of.

the work that we do on a daily basis is like, we're still moving slower than employees need better experiences at work. And so I think the metaverse we're saying is a talent marketplace, a global talent marketplace, I guess.

angela_r_howard (12:15.926)

So what will need to change, because I'm just thinking about my HR friends who are very, this is a nerve-racking conversation for them because you've got, well, how are we gonna do recruiting? We're gonna need to review resumes, we're gonna have to implement policies, we're gonna have to protect ourselves from an employee relations perspective, which we know HR is behind the curve, not just with the future of work, as we're talking about it today, but.

with this new, re-envisioned way of working as well. So what paradigms need to shift for this to happen with HR and with leaders and business owners?

josh_drean (12:50.999)

Yeah. And I will first off say like my heart goes out to HR leaders because they have so much on their plate, right? Like just their function in general has shifted so much in the past three years that we went from like personnel to like doing paperwork and making sure we don't get sued to wow. Now we are a people function and we are responsible for like.

angela_r_howard (13:06.531)

Mm-hmm.

josh_drean (13:15.067)

everything. And so that alone is a lot of work. And there's so much technology who says they have the answer being thrown at you. And you're just piled on top of it when you go to HR Tech, it's like, okay, so what are we actually doing here? And that's, that's the point to me is like, we need to take a step back and like, realize what is the what is the core problem? And how do we start solving that today? And, and so I'm saying you don't have to jump headlong into

angela_r_howard (13:28.151)

Mm.

josh_drean (13:42.423)

the metaverse, you don't have to be a digital first, like early adopter, but you do need to start thinking in terms of where is HR today and what's important? Does that really solve the problem? I think that leading edge companies with great HR departments are focused on employee experience. We moved from employee engagement, running surveys, collecting that data, maybe doing something or maybe not, depending on if we want to or not, employees.

angela_r_howard (14:10.103)

Hehehehe

josh_drean (14:10.991)

giving feedback to us as a gift, and then building maybe distrust in the organization because nothing changed. And you actually used that information against me in some way. So we've evolved from that into employee experience. Employee experience today is, let's design amazing experiences for our people. And when we say that, that's nice. In practice, only one in 10 organizations are actually bringing employees to the table. And...

angela_r_howard (14:23.059)

Mm.

josh_drean (14:39.459)

having the conversation with employees. Like it drives me nuts that we're not like actually talking to them. And employees are like, I see it and I feel it like, this is not the solution. You're designing experiences, but they're just, they have nothing to do with me. I don't play ping pong guys. I don't really care about hot yoga that much. What I really care about is fulfillment and satisfaction in the work I do on a daily basis. I can't do that because I have bottlenecks, X, Y, Z.

angela_r_howard (14:42.574)

Ha ha ha!

angela_r_howard (14:58.931)

Great.

josh_drean (15:09.163)

And so the argument can be made is like, can organizations truly design experiences? Can they evolve fast enough or will the technology web three technology about evolve fast enough to where I'm jumping from a human boss to an AI boss, because this AI boss gives me all the flexibility I could ever want. And all I got to do is get my deliverables in, in a way that like makes sense for the project, it makes sense for the company. And so.

I just say, let's just start thinking about that, right? If you can't deliver on employee experience, AI will.

angela_r_howard (15:45.95)

I'm glad you brought up AI because that was where I was going to go to next. What does this future re-envisioning of work, what kind of considerations do we need to make for things like belonging? There's some key human elements to how we operate, right? We're social beings. Work has become a system of community.

Do you see that being impacted and how are experts like you thinking about those things in the development of these platforms?

josh_drean (16:25.571)

Hmm. It's so fascinating when we think about the pattern of emerging technology and how society embraces it. Um, I think when we look at the, the birth of the internet, it started off as like, what the heck is this thing to like, Oh, I finally get it. And this is pretty amazing to today. I feel like we're kind of in the dark ages of the internet because there are very

angela_r_howard (16:46.344)

Mm-hmm.

josh_drean (16:54.279)

few large conglomerate organizations that are completely centralized and completely control everything. They control our data, they control the flow of information. And I think that society, for the most part, it feels like we're looking at that and being like, ooh, that was kind of a mistake. Look at what's happening with Twitter, right? We have billionaires coming in and...

angela_r_howard (17:15.338)

Hmm. Right.

josh_drean (17:21.591)

doing whatever they're going to do based on their opinions, thoughts, beliefs. Whereas a decentralized system will reclaim a lot of the reasons why the internet is amazing, right? Why we as humans love to connect. Social media used to do that, now it feels like a cesspool of like bad behavior. What it can be is what we think about. It's like, okay, so how can we design an actual world where...

angela_r_howard (17:44.503)

Right?

josh_drean (17:51.063)

We are good actors and we do care about each other. And that unfortunately is yet to be decided. But I do know that there are a lot of forward thinking leaders who are thinking in terms of, well, like the resume, like, let's just look at pieces of HR, right? Like the resume is, onboarding period is kind of an interesting thing. Recruiting is kind of an interesting thing, how we've leveraged these technologies. What if instead of like,

angela_r_howard (18:08.532)

Mm-hmm.

josh_drean (18:19.851)

an employee coming to you with a self-reported piece of paper that is their resume. Do you actually know if this is real or not? It's still crazy to me. We don't know. What if we actually had a digital wallet? A crypto wallet is what we've been calling it. There's tons of organizations out there where you can get a metamask wallet. Your digital imprint is in that wallet. All of the work that you've completed, all the courses that you've taken, all of that is already in place. You don't need to send that to a human that says,

angela_r_howard (18:23.881)

Mm-hmm.

josh_drean (18:49.007)

Cool, we have your resume. Now let's make an objective decision on if this is the right fit or not. We can leverage AI to fix whatever problems we've seen with, oh, well, they're not a good culture fit. I'm just highlighting one way that this technology will change the way that we work is because now it's not gonna go out and say, hey, we see who you are and your skills and we matched you with the perfect company.

angela_r_howard (18:53.738)

Mm-hmm.

angela_r_howard (19:07.282)

Mm-hmm.

josh_drean (19:17.399)

That's kind of what Indeed and LinkedIn is trying to do. It's like, hey, there are tons of DAOs all over the world, and they all have projects that they've thrown out into the ether, and we have matched you and this team with the perfect project, because it's doing 99% of what you love to do only without having all the baggage that comes with corporate work. So can we build it, is the question. There's a lot of...

angela_r_howard (19:20.119)

Mm-hmm.

angela_r_howard (19:36.814)

Mm.

josh_drean (19:46.911)

ethics and morality that needs to be considered. And I would just hope that we as a society can do it well and do it together.

angela_r_howard (19:57.442)

Yes, and that's why I feel like this conversation is so important because I think the question mark as to if this is going to stick is a yes. I don't, I mean, I don't, I know we've had, we're having some issues in the news around crypto with certain bad actors, but, you know, I think there's enough momentum around this and progression around this that this is going to be real.

And you bring up a good point, which is the idea of bias and human bias and how that can perhaps be eliminated with a more objective piece of technology like AI. How much, because we know like bias, systemic racism,

systemic sexism, things like that, are built into our DNA and our systems, right? So a lot of it is not intentional, it's unconscious. How much of that is actually a part of AI? Because I would suspect that because humans have created this thing, maybe it's less biased than your average human, but is that baked in too?

josh_drean (21:14.271)

It's a great question and a theoretical discussion that people much smarter than I need to be having on a daily basis as they're building out the metaverse. But but I think you've nailed it right like we get scared of AI because now we're giving power to robots to one day control us.

angela_r_howard (21:24.788)

Mm-hmm.

josh_drean (21:40.727)

the big thing right now. Everyone's talking about chat GPT because you can give it a prompt and it scrubs the internet and comes back with a very succinct and very strong argument for the work that you're doing. It's interesting. Chat GPT, literally just, it's an app, pull it up, you give it a prompt like, tell me about why dog parks in New York are super important and it will go through and it will like.

angela_r_howard (21:54.678)

What is chat, what is chat GBT in a nutshell?

angela_r_howard (22:01.358)

come.

josh_drean (22:08.811)

write a paper for you. So it's like life changing, it is really strong, it is like killed the essay in my mind, like kids in school are no longer gonna be required to write essays because teachers aren't even gonna tell if this is like AI or not. But it's fascinating because you can get in there and you can start giving prompt, like you can do this today, everyone listening, go do this today, go start giving it prompts of like real world HR problems that you're solving and hear what it has to come.

angela_r_howard (22:11.557)

Wow.

angela_r_howard (22:23.894)

Mmm.

josh_drean (22:37.439)

what it comes back with. And this is not some bot with a brain thinking about it. It's scrubbing the internet. It's hearing what we as a human race have to say, and it's regurgitating it back to us. And that starts to show us how we view ourselves and how we should view ourselves and how work should evolve. So again, I don't have any clear answers because it's yet to be decided, but I feel like we should.

angela_r_howard (22:53.73)

Hmm.

josh_drean (23:04.767)

instead of worried about all of the movies that we've seen about AI taking over the world, like start leveraging it for ways that make us more human and allow us the flexibility that we need to do better work.

angela_r_howard (23:13.09)

Mm-hmm.

angela_r_howard (23:21.078)

Yeah, and also realize that humans are flawed. So how can we correct that through AI? Things like bias, things like culture fit. All these things have been deterrents to fairness in the past. The resume is a deterrent to fairness. So how can we make sure that AI is built in a way that truly can be objective and perhaps create opportunity? And the other thing I'm...

josh_drean (23:49.303)

Yeah.

angela_r_howard (23:50.495)

Oh, go ahead, Josh, I'm sorry.

josh_drean (23:51.775)

Yeah, no, and you bring up, you brought up a really good point is like, um, as, as we see this technology, as we, like who owns our data, how do we inhabit this world, it's important to remember that, um, that as, as humans, right, as you said, like we, we have bias and we are working to overcome that. And, and I feel like when we.

angela_r_howard (24:02.172)

Mm-hmm.

josh_drean (24:18.231)

get out of wherever we are where we're so polarized and we're only looking at what resonates with our own opinions and we can get back to a place where, and HR is on the forefront of this, they are working so hard to make sure that the workforce is equitable. Maybe we can leverage this AI, Web3 technologies, the metaverse, to get back to a place where it is healthy and we are focused on well-being.

And that's what excites me about the future.

angela_r_howard (24:50.93)

Awesome. And that brings up a interesting point as to why we actually started this conversation. We're like, we need to get this on a podcast. You know, if any of you are on Instagram, you probably have seen in your newsfeed these beautiful images pop up, selfie images, right, of people on your newsfeed. And I can't remember the name of the actual app that does this, but.

When this started popping up for me, it freaked me out a little bit, to be honest. Because I'm like, where is this coming from? How are these images being created? Who is doing this, right? Where is this information? And then the fact that they were kind of these fantasy images, I'm like, well, knowing what I know about Web3 and AI, the very limited amount that I know, this data is going somewhere. Is my likeness being used?

at a wider scale. And so I was like questioning like, should I be freaked out about this? And I even asked you, I'm like, Josh, tell me what you know. So maybe tell everybody what you told me and maybe your experience with this and what impact this might have.

josh_drean (25:59.051)

Yeah, so I think you're touching on the crux of data collection and why it's just so terrible today. I was just at the Immersed Global Summit in Miami and there was a company that had a booth that was like, hey, come check this out. You get a 3D avatar. Come on in and you walk in, there's 360 cameras everywhere. They scan your body. You jump around, do some tricks.

And then they kind of kick you out the door and say, thanks, bye. That is data collection on a level that we've never seen before. And when we look at facial recognition, it's like, wow. Or if you look at deep fake technology that's able to superimpose someone else's face on your body and like there's a lot of scary ways that data can be leveraged. And that is why there's this

large cry for decentralization. We don't want these large conglomerates taking our information and selling it without our permission or using it in ways that we don't even know. The blockchain exists because you now have a crypto wallet, which is your identity and you own all of this stuff. And this is how you prove that you are who you are. This is how you prove that you've done what you've done. And there's just a whole new level of security.

whole new level of HR compliance coming. I'm excited about that one. And so there's reason to be excited. There's also a reason to like be cautious because with great new technology comes a lot of good, also a lot of bad. And I think there are a lot of people right now who are building web three because they believe that we can reclaim a lot of these

angela_r_howard (27:29.08)

Yes, yes.

josh_drean (27:54.455)

We can fix a lot of these problems in theory. It just, it's yet to be seen if we can do that or not.

angela_r_howard (27:57.518)

Hmm.

angela_r_howard (28:03.686)

Yeah, yeah, it's pretty fascinating. So for those of you who are listening, I mean, we're talking about the future of work. I mean, this is truly the future of work. I think what we're talking about when we talk about hybrid work and employee experience, and I think we're there already. Like, if you're not already thinking about the culture of your organization,

giving people flexibility, wellness, DE&I, all those things are here. I think what we're talking about here is potentially a complete re-imagining of the landscape of work. And I think there's so many key questions to be asking ourselves about the ethics behind it, the potential of progression in the right directions, I think from an employee experience perspective, taking the best things from work and leaving some of the old.

traditional nonsense behind in some cases. So I just think it's a fascinating conversation and I think we need to keep an eye on it. And we talk about social responsibility. I can't help but think about the fact that we really, that needs to be a part of the conversation as things are being developed, as conversations are happening about change, as we're creating beta versions of things. We really need to have someone at the table.

who understands the human psyche and psychology and how we actually work and what's actually gonna be beneficial in the long run. So maybe you and I can just change the world. It's gonna be great. Ha ha ha. Hmm.

josh_drean (29:37.365)

Right.

josh_drean (29:42.392)

That's the hope. And it's a long and winding road because I think especially you as a consultant, you play in the, all right, let's evolve from the 90s to the 2000s with some companies. And you also are dealing with digital first, digital natives who are out there on the forefront. So it's truly about the HR problems that we're dealing with are like, have empathy, listen to people.

angela_r_howard (29:59.607)

Mm-hmm.

josh_drean (30:09.779)

meet them where they are, create custom experiences that they will love. It's hard to do that when we are human, we're not human calculators, even though we can be empathetic, how can we scale that? I literally just wrote about this in an upcoming book. We just landed a major book deal with Harvard Business Review Press that we're really excited about. As excited or as scared as we get about these emerging technologies.

angela_r_howard (30:31.66)

awesome

josh_drean (30:39.051)

it's going to take a long time for them to be what they need to be. There's a wild, wild west element to them. When you look at where YouTube started and how bad it was for a certain amount of time and to where it is today. Um, in theory, dows are designed to be free of human error, but like, as we're building these technologies, regardless of the bad actors that we're seeing in web three technology, technology as.

angela_r_howard (30:46.903)

Hmm.

josh_drean (31:08.479)

much as we see fluctuations in the market. I believe that Web3 provides a better and more human world for us because work problems, the workplace problems that employees are continually facing will drive them to find new vessels for work that is needed now more than ever. Like the metaverse to me represents what distributed work could be like, full of rich human interactions, productivity and unlimited possibilities. It creates a seamless cohesion.

angela_r_howard (31:24.61)

Mmm.

josh_drean (31:34.615)

of our physical and virtual worlds, offering harmony in how we interact with technology and with each other. So let's chase that positive dream together. Let's not be afraid of these emerging technologies and embrace them as a way for us to build better experiences today for employees. And in the future, hopefully for contributors to DAOs in the crypto network. And that doesn't sound scary anymore.

angela_r_howard (32:03.055)

Yeah, it still kind of sounds scary now, but now that I know what they are, I think, and that's the point of this episode, is to really get people to understand, you know, when someone says crypto, you know, I think people have kind of adverse reactions, because they think of like the crypto bros, yeah, and like...

josh_drean (32:17.583)

crypto bros, stealing the money.

angela_r_howard (32:21.05)

Yes, and this is like, yes, this is sure. There are people like that who are really looking at this at a surface level, but it's a tool. So how can we leverage it? And so we are gonna keep our finger on the pulse of this. Josh, it would be wonderful, of course, to have you back, but you're kind of like already in every episode. You're magic, you sprinkle your magic and a little bit of yourself in every episode. So just keep that in mind when you all are listening to the podcast.

the great work that Josh does for us here.

josh_drean (32:53.515)

It's nothing but an honor and a privilege, Angela. Thank you so much for having me.

angela_r_howard (32:57.397)

Thank you, Josh.