Providing Equitable Experiences at Work with Erica Spitale
angela_r_howard (00:01.507)
Hi Erica, welcome to the podcast. I am so excited to have you on. It's been a long time. It's been like seven years, I think since we've seen each other in person.
erica_spitale (00:08.55)
it
erica_spitale (00:12.128)
I know, I know, and it's so good to see your face. It's so good to feel your energy through the computer screen. I'm just so happy to be here, and I'm so, so glad to be here with you.
angela_r_howard (00:22.082)
Yes, yes. We mentioned on our time before we clicked record that this is kind of a full circle moment for us because we met in 2015 in Philadelphia at the SIOP conference, which is our industry's nerdy annual conference for industrial-organizational psychologists. And so we both come from a similar background, but
different journeys, different stories. And so I would love to hear more about you, what you do, who you are, what you do, and the impact you're looking to make on the world.
erica_spitale (00:59.452)
Yes, thank you so much. Yes, it has been, this has been a full-circle moment. As you mentioned, I am Erica Spitaly and I'm a native of Chicago. Even though I don't live there anymore, Chicago will always be home for only six months out of the year, if you know what I mean. And moved to Atlanta in 2016.
angela_r_howard (01:10.734)
Thanks for watching!
angela_r_howard (01:15.466)
Right? Yes.
erica_spitale (01:23.688)
By background, I come from a family of scientists, and so it was really kind of innate in me to get into the science field in some way, somehow. I thought I was going to be a doctor, and then if you remember, I'm gonna age myself. The show ER.
angela_r_howard (01:39.199)
Yes.
erica_spitale (01:39.32)
I couldn't even handle that. And so, okay, well, I don't know how I'm gonna be doing open heart surgery if I can't take the visual effects of an NBC TV show. So, I quickly pivoted, and I became a clinical psychologist. So I am a licensed clinical psychologist and I practiced in the mental health field for over 10 years before having an Oprah aha moment where working for a nonprofit and...
became more curious about the actual inner workings of the nonprofit versus serving the client. And so my curiosity led to this re-emergence of formal education and going back to school after my doctorate, no judgment please, and getting a degree in IO psychology because I can't leave the science and the human behavior piece behind. And decided to work in the healthcare system
angela_r_howard (02:11.23)
Mm.
erica_spitale (02:34.47)
segue from mental health to business psychology in a healthcare organization. And I haven't looked back since and I've been doing this amazing work for seven years now going on eight and there's still a lot more to do. And so I am the head of talent and employee experience at Employee Bridge and I love the work I do and I love to love the work I get to do with the teammates that I have.
angela_r_howard (03:02.67)
I love that. And tell us more about kind of your why and what's the impact that you're looking to make on the world. I mean, you told us it gives a little bit of a hint into what inspired it, but what's the core?
erica_spitale (03:16.7)
I have always been fascinated by humanity, why we do the things we do, why we say the things we say, how and why we think the way we think. And I think that's obviously what spurred a lot of my mental health work. But regardless of the environment that we're in, we don't get to turn off the human button. And so there is just so much need.
and work required to ensure that 24-7-365.
We are doing for one another what we need to thrive in this world. And so I am just maniacally focused on centering the human experience in and out of the workplace, 24-7-365, and making sure that no matter how you identify and who you are, you have equitable opportunities to do whatever it is you choose to do.
angela_r_howard (04:17.922)
Hmm. Oh, I love that. And I love your mission and your focus. It rings true for me with the work that I do. And so we're kind of in this together. We're in this pivotal moment in history where I think we're seeing the shift happen. We're seeing the enlightenment, the light bulb comes on with more people than ourselves, right? Cause I feel like for a while we were just kind of talking to a wall, like humanity at work, it makes a difference.
Now it's like, oh yeah, it does. What do you think are the barriers to that? Because that is something that I grapple with all the time. Is it the human condition? Is it the systems? What are your thoughts on the barriers to that?
erica_spitale (05:03.32)
Yeah, the first thing that comes to mind when you said that or asked that was the system. I mean, let's be honest for a second. Our society has been built in a way that serves individuals who identify in a specific way more than others. And so that systemic pressure is the foundation with which businesses have been built.
angela_r_howard (05:10.414)
Mm-hmm.
erica_spitale (05:28.784)
And so it is really like legacy retelling the same story, but just on a different book cover. And that power that systems have rarely.
erica_spitale (05:44.056)
rarely, sorry I'm trying to think of the word I'm looking for.
erica_spitale (05:50.46)
it's fundamentally almost impossible, right, for an individual to overcome that. And so almost to your question, how do, in specific environments, how do we collectively overturn, change what the system has been conditioned to operate as so that we can have different conversations and say different things and feel different things and ensure that
angela_r_howard (05:56.546)
Mmm.
angela_r_howard (06:06.187)
Mm-hmm.
erica_spitale (06:19.82)
Even though, to your point earlier, when we were talking offline, the one-size-fits-all all isn't necessarily the solution. But some table stakes should fit all. And if we're centering the folks that historically have been marginalized, underrepresented, and underserved, then we will most likely ensure that everyone benefits from whatever pivots and changes we need to make.
angela_r_howard (06:28.155)
Mm. Yes.
angela_r_howard (06:44.603)
Yeah, 100%. And that's, you know when I tell people about what I do, you know because I think sometimes when we talk about systems, when we talk about marginalized communities, people are like, oh, you're in the D, E and I space. I'm like, no, I'm in the change in system space. I just happen to be a black woman who works in systems change. And yes, I bring life experience.
angela_r_howard (07:13.126)
the interesting shift that we're seeing where it's like because we're talking about systems, you know, we must be in the DENI space, we must carve that out as DENI when it is, it is just baked into how we do things. It's baked into from a societal and, you know, anthropology, cultural perspective, we can't ignore the broader context of society and how it's operated.
and then just say, oh, that doesn't apply here in the workplace, which is why, you know, I know you're heading up employee experience. So how does that take shape for you? How are you thinking about the employee experience journey from that lens of being a, I don't know, lowercase culture in the context of an uppercase culture, if that question makes sense?
erica_spitale (08:05.332)
Yeah, I think one of the things that I've been diligent or tried to be as diligent as I can about is identifying those key moments first. Because look, at the end of the day, when you think about somebody's experience, you've got part-time workers, you've got full-time workers, you might have shift workers. It is too insurmountable of a task to try to navigate or account for every hour, every minute of somebody's day or experience in the organization.
angela_r_howard (08:32.16)
Mm.
erica_spitale (08:34.266)
key moments that you want to double down on, lean in heavily on around, how do we ensure that at least at these moments we are curating and providing an experience that benefits who we bring in and also keeps who we bring in? I also think so, and this is maybe a little bit more taboo, but also...
humanly deselects those who no longer serve the organization. And I think we talk a lot about retention and attraction, but the caveat to retention is also making sure that those who stay have an experience that isn't detracted by those who may no longer be
angela_r_howard (09:06.879)
Yeah.
Mm.
erica_spitale (09:21.528)
equipped to navigate and contribute in the way that they would have, you know, maybe a year ago, two years ago, et cetera. And so I know that tends to be a little bit less talked about, but I think it's equally as important.
angela_r_howard (09:34.122)
Yeah, I love that. I mean, I always have many analogies for culture and employee experience, one of them being a garden. The other one, which you'll appreciate, is kind of like the human body and the system, right? When you think about, I don't know, like organ transplants, for example, they're either accepted or they're rejected. And so your body is a system. And I know this is kind of intense...
example, but how are you ensuring that the way you're building your culture and the experience within your organization is rejecting the bad stuff, right? That's what a system that is working for your aspiring culture is supposed to do. It should also have accountability structures, and reinforcement structures that keep the bad stuff out.
or keep the weeds from growing if we're going back to the garden example. It's a whole ecosystem, to your point.
erica_spitale (10:34.756)
Absolutely, no, that's exactly it. And so as much as we, to your point again, talk about approvals and inserts, we also should be talking about, okay, well, what are we discarding? What are we getting rid of? Whether they're behaviors? Who are we, again, humanistically letting go of? All of that, yes.
angela_r_howard (10:44.513)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (10:56.685)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, 100%. And what, you know, I mean, we talk about culture, we talk about poly experience, it's, you know, we also talk about inclusion. And I think we're overusing a lot of words these days, inclusion, belonging, oh, those all sound fabulous. And yes, they sound very human. But what do you think about the role of exclusion to the point of, the point of,
it's keeping the integrity of culture and what you're trying to build. And then how do we start that conversation in a way that's real? Because I do think there is an element of exclusion when it comes to ensuring that the system is working properly. I don't, yeah, I'm kind of talking off the cuff here, but what do you think about that? Does that resonate?
erica_spitale (11:52.356)
It does, and I love it. And I mean that in the most empathetic way, but look, we exclude every day. I mean, let's be honest. When you think about why businesses have been put in place, it's to make money. And when businesses realize they can't make money without people, that's when people come into the equation. And so businesses who are trying to make money through people have a set of criteria around
angela_r_howard (12:14.317)
Hmm.
erica_spitale (12:21.468)
for certain roles, what skills and responsibilities these roles will have. If you don't foot the bill, you don't get in. That's exclusion. So why would we assume that trend or that practice ends
angela_r_howard (12:34.775)
Hmm
erica_spitale (12:45.7)
at hiring. No, it continues because if the goal is to continue to make a profit once the person is in the said seat, well then there have to be other markers for what is profitable and what isn't. And if that's your exclusionary criteria, great. I mean, there can be others, but I think the practice of exclusion is organically a part of keeping a business afloat and keeping a business successful.
angela_r_howard (13:13.158)
Yeah, and I've grappled with this a lot because I work with some organizations that, for example, have during, when George Floyd was murdered, for example, decided to publish an anti-racism statement or reevaluate their values and their purpose and,
On the surface, we see these commitments to a philosophy, or not even a philosophy, a purpose that is aligned with something that might exclude some people, AKA racists or people who have inherent bias or discrimination against other people. And so I'm fascinated by this idea of exclusion and when it's okay and when bias is involved
it prevents equitable opportunities for people. And so that could be like a whole nother podcast episode, but I do think it feeds into this employee experience conversation, which is how can we be clear and kind at the same time? How can we merge and intersect the interests of business and people? Because we're all here for a reason, to your point.
And how do we ensure that we're holding people accountable for those things? Whether it is something like, we are an anti-racist organization, we don't tolerate microaggressions or racist behavior in any way, shape, or form or any bias-driven exclusion behavior. Or if it's, you're not meeting your metrics and your goals. What are some of the moments, I guess, in between that are important for
employers to stay clear and kind at the same time. So what are some of the tactics that and systems that reinforce that balance?
erica_spitale (15:11.744)
That's a great question. The first thing that comes to mind for me, because I'm heavily involved in leading my organization through this, is performance and talent development. And so feedback, right? Communicating. How am I set up to have the necessary conversations with my teammates to ensure their success? And am I doing that, to your point, most clearly and kindly?
angela_r_howard (15:22.004)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (15:37.995)
Hmm.
erica_spitale (15:42.478)
And also, I would say time is relevant too, because I think you can be clear and kind, but two weeks too late. And so how am I, to your point earlier, intersecting the clarity and the kindness with timeliness? And am I prioritizing the clarity and kindness for some versus others? So I think that's the first thought that comes to mind around that.
angela_r_howard (15:49.518)
Great. Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (15:58.18)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (16:04.331)
Hmm.
erica_spitale (16:10.168)
I also think just every day, and so again as a leader, I put a lot on leaders I fully recognize that the shift in expectations of leaders has been massive. And so as a fellow people leader folks, like trust me, I say this with also accountability and responsibility for myself to do what it is I'm saying.
angela_r_howard (16:23.023)
Mm.
erica_spitale (16:32.764)
But I also think in the one-on-ones, even if you're not coaching, it is just in, how are you showing up? How are you creating space for your teammates to bring whatever they need to bring to that conversation? I think one of the biggest shifts I've experienced in my career in going from an individual contributor to a people leader is I used to think that the one-on-ones were for my leader.
angela_r_howard (17:00.494)
Mmm. Mm-hmm.
erica_spitale (17:00.996)
not for me as the direct report. And I can't remember the day, but I do remember the period where there was this shift in a leader I had who helped me better understand like, no, this is for you and about you. Like, what's your agenda? I was like, oh, I get to go first? So small shifts like that, that can truly change how someone feels safe enough to show up.
angela_r_howard (17:17.643)
Right. Yeah. So, I'm going to go ahead and do a little bit of a
erica_spitale (17:27.824)
comfortable enough to show up and how authentically someone can show up. Those are the two that come to mind immediately for me.
angela_r_howard (17:37.642)
Yeah, I think it gets back to this conversation around equity, which is, and again, I'm kind of shifting into, I'm going through the letters in DE&I, but I wanted to kind of highlight the shift here, which is, I think there are inclusive behaviors, and we need to focus on inclusive leadership, which means knowing enough about your people as human beings, what motivates them.
What stresses them out? What are their boundaries? Do they have things going on personally that may impact their performance? All of those things are grounded in equity because now I can adjust to ensuring that you have all the tools you need to be successful for equal outcomes, right? And that's what we're talking about when we talk about inclusion and equity together there is discretion.
and intuition and skill from a leadership perspective, and effort and responsibility and all these words to be able to say, I am impacting this human being on a day-to-day basis, and I have a responsibility to learn about them. They're not a chess piece, they're not a cog in a wheel, they're a human being. And so from an employee experience perspective, how can I...
start to learn more about human behavior, about this person's story. I think the thing that I see most is leaders are kind of looking to their VP of employee experience or their CHRO and saying, do the people stuff. You're the expert. And it's like, you also should be keeping up on trends around, you know, sociology, psychology, anthropology. Like human behavior is a very large part of the equation when it comes to the way that
work systems happen and how results get accomplished.
erica_spitale (19:35.164)
Oh my gosh, yes, all the things you just said, what you just made me think of is the fear I think a lot of people leaders show up with and not knowing where to start, and that is extremely valid, like 100% valid. But what you made me think about is if we could all just lean into being curious and being okay or more okay with
angela_r_howard (19:50.452)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (19:56.473)
Mm-hmm.
erica_spitale (20:03.292)
Maybe, yeah, you asked the wrong question. Maybe you said the wrong thing. Maybe you didn't ask the right question. Maybe you didn't say the right thing. We are conditioned as humans to be very forgiving. And especially when we understand that there's care underlying the curiosity, like authentic care.
angela_r_howard (20:24.04)
us.
erica_spitale (20:26.552)
And so to your point, it just takes effort and it just takes a little intention. And how do we insert the effort intention and curiosity in every moment? Not just when we think it matters, not just when we're comfortable, not just when we think we have time, just all the things.
angela_r_howard (20:41.102)
Yes. Yeah, and to your point, it comes down to treating others the way they want to be treated versus this golden rule that we've been taught, treat others how you wanna be treated, but that's not inclusive, that's not equitable because we're all different. And that's where the diversity comes in, which is table stakes as we know, understanding that
you will have a diverse force understanding that you have different perspectives, backgrounds, and limitations. Many different things underlie the concept of intersectionality and diversity. So it's becoming more, I mean, it's always been important, I think, for leaders to
come with a sense of, I think humbleness too is another word that comes to my humility is the word I'm looking for. Humility and curiosity are both key inclusive behavior constructs that are important for leaders to navigate I think the modern world of the workplace but also showing up as a good human being in general. Like you said outside of work, inside of work it's some of the same characteristics.
erica_spitale (21:59.996)
Yes. I love that you said that because you made me think about if we can sit in the curiosity a little bit longer, how much better off we'll be. And you made me think about why would we behave any differently outside of the workplace than we would in the workplace. So one of the things I absolutely cannot.
angela_r_howard (22:22.178)
Hmm.
erica_spitale (22:25.704)
stomach is when companies call their employees family.
angela_r_howard (22:31.722)
Oh lord have mercy yes
erica_spitale (22:34.768)
Let's take a moment of silence. Yes, okay, and so if you peel it back though, and typically when you ask, like where that comes from or why they do it, the logic makes sense, the logic. But the impact doesn't.
The impact, so the intent is one thing, the impact is another. And I think back to your kind of dissecting of D, E, and I, if the intent is to convey that we should be treating each other as if we are connected in the most personal and intimate way, i.e. family, cool. But that is not.
angela_r_howard (23:17.148)
Mm-hmm.
erica_spitale (23:23.613)
That word for many, for a lot of folks, means a myriad of different things that you as an individual cannot account for. If I am a CEO responsible for 3,000, 2,000, or 10,000 people, I cannot possibly know what that one powerful word means to everyone.
But what I do know is that it probably means different things, positive, neutral, and maybe even negative. And so how do I convey the same sentiment around, yes, how you would treat your family in ways around communication and it's a
devoting time and energy and effort and intention, like all the things we just talked about, how do you do that in a way that includes most if not all through language that may not be so loaded and personalized because of people's experiences, upbringings, backgrounds, et cetera.
angela_r_howard (24:10.173)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (24:27.458)
Yes, yes, I agree with you 100%. Family is not the word you're looking for, y'all. It's just not. Because family, because you don't fire family. You don't have a family. I mean, you don't want dysfunction in your organization, which, I mean, unless that's a part of your culture statement, I don't know if that's even.
considered, but yeah, I don't think you want dysfunction because a lot of times family is dysfunctional. I mean, chosen family, maybe. That gives me a little bit more of a fuzzy feeling, but I agree with you. I think the sentiment is there where, you know, we can show up to each other as our authentic selves, I think that is kind of the core to that. And that's in the most idealistic family unit. That's what you would want, but
I think it also devalues and underestimates the work behind building, holding people accountable, the integrity around culture, and creating psychologically safe spaces. Because yeah, you maybe wouldn't fire a family member necessarily. And I think it's just, it's a very poor way to paint the picture of what you're trying to achieve, which is...
we are trying to work towards a goal collectively, but we also acknowledge the individual diversity and the fact that everyone else has their own families, and the way, that we're all dealing with them. So when you come into this space, it is not family. It's a high-performing team where you can contribute and you're able to learn from really talented people. And it's contributing to your overall story.
erica_spitale (26:01.98)
Yes.
erica_spitale (26:18.675)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (26:19.382)
and the purpose that you have and the mission that you have while you're on this earth, right? We're trying to enrich you as an individual. So yeah, I agree with you 100%. And I also think that families can be very homogenous, right? So when you are in a family unit, there are things that are focused on generations within the family, but you have a diverse workforce. And so,
erica_spitale (26:26.076)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (26:48.738)
Things like code-switching, I think, to your point, is something that resonates with me a lot, because I spent my entire career in corporate, and I had the work face, and I had my work voice, right? Everyone around me was like, who is that? Who's talking? That's not Angela. And then I'd have my usual hanging out with my friends, my community, and completely different people, and that was exhausting.
erica_spitale (27:14.964)
Thanks.
angela_r_howard (27:16.95)
Exhausting. So yeah, if I'm doing a company that's someone else's family and I have to code switch and I have to listen to examples that don't resonate with me or have nothing to do with my upbringing or things that don't celebrate my differences and the communities that I come from, then yeah, that becomes exhausting for people. I have to fit into your family versus you celebrating mine.
erica_spitale (27:43.836)
and or celebrating the family we're trying to create. So to your point, knowing that more times than not, family origins are homogenous. Well, okay. So to your point, how do you add an adjective or some other descriptor to that family word to differentiate between what you may be accustomed to and or coming from and what we are building here?
angela_r_howard (27:47.382)
Yes, yes.
angela_r_howard (28:07.954)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
erica_spitale (28:11.62)
I 100% agree, 100% agree. And just to add this topic, yes, code-switching. I cannot tell you if there was any reflection, of all the reflection that I did around the pandemic, which we're still in, by the way. Let's also be clear about that. It was the silver lining of not having to show up, and I'm doing air quotes, in ways
angela_r_howard (28:27.042)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
erica_spitale (28:41.672)
fit the response and reaction I was looking for versus just showing up as me. I remember, and just a quick example, so don't get me wrong, I love to dress up. So you will catch me in heels, you will catch me in dresses like that. That is a core part of who I am. But when the pandemic hit and we went to remote or virtual, I started showing up in hoodies. And I remember
angela_r_howard (28:57.296)
Hehehe
angela_r_howard (29:08.654)
Mm-hmm.
erica_spitale (29:11.436)
a teammate being surprised and commenting as if how I showed up at work somehow was always how I showed up even on the weekend at the grocery store like every environment outside of it was like I only see you this way so this must be the only way you show up and it's like I'm multi-layered just like you are I don't I love the gym as we talked about I do not show up at the gym in heels and a jacquard dress
angela_r_howard (29:30.582)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (29:41.018)
No. If you did, that would be impressive, but no. Yeah. Right. And that is real. I think code-switching has always been a topic that...
erica_spitale (29:44.748)
It would, and I might try it just for TikTok, but like, that's not the norm. That is not me. It would be for social media likes.
angela_r_howard (30:01.234)
I think has grown in popularity now that people are denouncing it basically and rejecting it. And so what is professionalism? Right? And going back to the employee experience, how can we create moments where we can celebrate the way people show up? I think this is the connection that I'm taking back here to the employee experience because it's not just about adding on.
or curating experiences, it's also creating the space to allow people to show up as they are and to celebrate them because those are two different things from my perspective. We can acknowledge there are differences, but truly celebrating them is a different thing. And we tend to celebrate the majority, and we don't celebrate the things we're not familiar with or seem different.
And to me, that's the key difference. Just saying like, oh, it's Black History Month and let's talk about black culture is learning, it's acknowledgment, sure. But are you then taking that back throughout the year and celebrating that? Are you asking people what that looks like for them? So that's the differentiator and not a lot of organizations are doing that. They're acknowledging they're not celebrating.
erica_spitale (31:25.14)
I love, love that differentiation, Angela. I do, I love that so much. And I think you're right. And you made me think about what we talked about earlier around the golden rule. I think we acknowledge based on how we would want to be acknowledged. And if we don't identify with the community that we're trying to acknowledge, how, oh, what is the word I'm looking for?
It's just very myopic in thinking, very narrow. And instead, to your point, have we asked individuals, communities that...
angela_r_howard (31:55.9)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
erica_spitale (32:06.128)
are contributing their all to this organization, how they want to be acknowledged and celebrated, and to your point as well, not just during Black History Month, how about the other months of the year? Would it be more meaningful to them if they saw it in the every day versus only, right, boxed into the 28 days of the shortest month of the year? Don't get me started. And so...
angela_r_howard (32:30.992)
Mm-hmm.
erica_spitale (32:31.612)
To your point, how do we go a step beyond what we think for those who are making those decisions is significant and impactful enough and ensure that we're doing it for and with the individuals we are saying that we are doing this for?
angela_r_howard (32:46.547)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (32:52.362)
Yes, doing with is a very important piece. You know, the term nothing with us, without us, right? Nothing for us, without us. What, is that the right term? Nothing for us, without us, yeah. So basically the essence of that is, do not go.
erica_spitale (33:05.63)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (33:15.454)
and try to contribute something performatively without truly understanding it and involving the people and the communities that you're trying to impact. Because at the end of the day, I have a different experience, right? You have a different experience. And all of us, our identities are very intersectional, but we need to recognize them.
when we're kind of out of our lane a little bit and realize that we come from a different background and we may not have all the information or truly understand the experience, we shouldn't speak for other people. We shouldn't speak for other communities. So that is, I think, a great point about doing things with people. And then again, back to celebrating, how do you celebrate that or create spaces where it could be celebrated?
And also checking your bias and checking these traditions that we've created within the workplace that are not serving everybody. The happy hour, right, is one of those things that I think we just need to rethink, right? I mean, it's come up in a few conversations, I think, from an inclusion perspective. Celebrating certain holidays only, right, is another thing. And so someone's probably listening, it's like, why would you?
erica_spitale (34:07.764)
Exactly.
angela_r_howard (34:37.174)
Why would you not celebrate Halloween or celebrate, you know, go to a happy hour? There are many reasons. And I think the main thing about all of these things is not that we don't wanna celebrate Halloween, we don't wanna celebrate Christmas, we don't also wanna celebrate these Christian-based holidays or have a drink with our fellow team, but think about the exclusion it can also present to certain communities. Think about folks in the Muslim community who...
cannot drink or you're serving certain foods at a happy hour that are not again celebrating the culture or the holidays that are acknowledged. So these are all things that I think if we just kind of got out of ourselves a little bit and then also not shaming and making people feel guilty for not attending these things is another thing that is just like it flies under the radar you know those comments of
oh, you're not going to join, you know, and you know, those things are also really damaging and detrimental to the experience of employees.
erica_spitale (35:41.604)
I love that you said that because two things come to mind. One is to your point, instead of shaming, why don't you ask, go back to the curiosity we were talking about, ask why, so that next time you may be able to curate or create or send a calendar invite for something more inclusive, because now you have leaned into curiosity to understand why someone may or may not attend such events.
angela_r_howard (35:48.078)
Mm-hmm.
erica_spitale (36:07.564)
I also think to your point too, like, we're always as humans asking what's in it for me. And to your point earlier, why does someone decline a Halloween celebration, a happy hour, etc? If there's nothing in it for them, why would they go?
angela_r_howard (36:13.428)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (36:25.713)
Right, we have to be okay with that. We have to be okay with this idea. I think too, I think the traditional model of the workplace and how it's been navigated is very white male-focused, right? Golfing, right? There are these informal opportunities to build a business, to build relationships.
erica_spitale (36:27.095)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (36:47.318)
I'll tell you what like happy hours golfing is not my thing. So how can I now have an equitable experience and an opportunity To network what opportunities are you creating for me as someone who does not enjoy golf who does not enjoy? Honestly spending time with co-workers outside of work hours, you know an introvert These are all differences that you may be excluding When you're using traditional
erica_spitale (37:06.972)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (37:15.682)
perspectives of what professionalism is, what networking means, how power comes to be, and the networks within your organization, all these things are ways to include or exclude, and unfortunately, traditionally, they've been excluded within the organization. Yeah.
erica_spitale (37:31.792)
Yes, and I feel like what you, yes, sorry, and I feel like what you just tapped into again was this idea around access and representation. If the folks who are doing the planning of said events are a homogenous group, probably, all the things we just talked about will not surface in the conversation. Why would it?
angela_r_howard (37:39.467)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (37:53.646)
Great.
erica_spitale (37:54.576)
At the same time, okay, so let's pivot. So let's say I learned from planning an event or a moment that wasn't inclusive. So then how do I, to your point, provide access to other moments or events with the same outcome and impact, i.e. how do I get visibility because I do wanna be promoted? How do I get visibility just to share my thoughts because I care about what this organization does? Like, how are we...
angela_r_howard (38:09.083)
Mm-hmm. Sure.
erica_spitale (38:22.816)
still grounded in the fact that we may not get it right every time, but we are coming behind to say, okay, I've learned from that and now I'm going to expand or widen my net to ensure that those who may have been left out can be brought in.
angela_r_howard (38:37.542)
Yes, absolutely. I love this, I love this. I mean, we could go on and on, probably for another three hours, but I wanna kind of tie a bow on, really how I'm summarizing our chat today is, it's employee experience, and DE and I multiplied. You know, kind of, we're combining these two topics, which I love, and I mentioned earlier to you,
A lot of times people look at the work we do around change, around inclusivity, equitable outcomes at work, and they're like, oh, you're a DE&I expert. And I oftentimes like, I guess, but really, I don't characterize myself as that. I'm focused on system change. You're focused on employee experience. And so it's really, sometimes I think we can kind of carve out DE&I when it's diversity, inclusive behaviors, equitable outcomes is...
is how we should be building the system. And so I just love the fact that we talked about how we can shape and curate the employee experience to focus on moments that matter for everybody because we are all humans and certain things within us are moments that matter, right? Transitions, and life events, like these are all things that as a
angela_r_howard (40:03.126)
but that additional layer, which is equally as important, is how you celebrate the differences within your workforce. And how are you not only acknowledging and learning about them and making them known, but also celebrating, and learning about people, not only as humans but humans that are complex and multilayered? And I just, love this conversation and where it's going, and I'm so excited about your work, Erica.
the organization you work for is really lucky to have you. And I know you're doing broader changes in this space. So tell us how we could find you. If someone's like, I just love this conversation. I want to reach out to Erica to learn more. How can we find you?
erica_spitale (40:45.636)
Yeah, no, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. So Erica J. Spitaly. That's probably where it's easiest to find me. For any direct inquiries, you can always email me at erica. spitaly at employbridge.com. Other than that, like, hey, listen to Angela's podcast because it's amazing. And thank you so much for what you're doing, for giving us all who care about what's next.
angela_r_howard (40:54.391)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (41:04.802)
Hehehe
erica_spitale (41:13.268)
and trying to build what's next. Thank you for giving us space and a place to have these conversations, to do this work, and to truly believe that change is possible.
angela_r_howard (41:24.022)
I love that. Yeah, thank you for helping me envision something different and talking about, you know, the responsibility of You know organizations to do this work. It's not just us, right? We are in the field of and in the business of changing not people but Changing how we think about paradigms that aren't serving everybody. So I'm just very honored to be a partner
Partner in crime, I guess, is what I was thinking, but maybe that's not the right word. Partner in change. PIC. Partner in change. So thank you, Erika. Appreciate you.
erica_spitale (41:56.28)
Love it. Thank you.
