Systems Change with Dr. Jacqueline Kerr
angela_r_howard (00:02.124)
Today we're gonna be talking about how systems change happens over time and how it's just a culmination of micro-progressions and behaviors over time. And today I have a wonderful guest, Dr. Jacqueline Kerr. She is a behavioral scientist and I am excited to nerd out with you, Jacqueline, because our work intersects.
especially when it comes to culture change and you have a unique perspective on the intersection of behavior change. So I'll bounce it to you to give a little bit of background, tell us your story, who you are, what you do, and what impact you're looking to make on the world.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (00:45.986)
Thank you so much for having me today. And I've been so looking forward to this conversation. And I think it was so important when I started to see that in your work, how you see that work intersects with the broader society and has a role in broader society. Because I think we spend so much time at work and also the things that maybe we, the way we come to work.
and show up at work because of the things that have been happening to us outside of work. And to be honest, outside of work, there are some major inequalities that then we bring to work, and workplaces have an opportunity to change that. And that's something that in my area of science, we learned a lot about from the childhood obesity epidemic. We used to blame the kids for coming to school unprepared, not sleeping, not well rested, not...
nutritious, we used to blame the parents, and then suddenly the schools went we have a role, these kids spend hours at our schools and we can help them in a way that they don't have those opportunities equally outside of school, but in school, you know, every child that attends then has this opportunity. So when they took responsibility for health and social disparities, it changed things. So I hope the workplace is also
move in that direction as well. They've got such an important role to play. And, with the COVID pandemic, you know, work and life collided in a way that we had never experienced before. So I'm excited about the work you do and this opportunity in time. And, you know, my background is all about behavioral science. But as I say, you know, about
things that are epidemics that are affecting so many people, which means we have to pay attention to.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (02:44.658)
multiple levels of so many things, it's not just you as an individual, but it is your family, your friends, your workplace, your institutions, government, education, and then society as a whole, the social norms, these all impact us, but likewise we can impact them with our behaviors, so that's why I think it's so great because it is bi-directional. And in terms of impact on the world,
angela_r_howard (03:07.017)
Mm.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (03:13.358)
I have just wanted to change the world since I was quite young. And I think that's partly why I went into behavior change to learn less about how I as an individual like
change and save the world, but much more, how do I help others? How do I empower others to advocate for resources and to become leaders? Because in every situation that I've been in, in a community engagement role, you know, I'm not the person that can best make the change. It's the individuals and the leaders from those communities. So it's really about giving them some more.
angela_r_howard (03:50.981)
Hmm.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (03:58.912)
tools to then lead change in those communities. So really, that's the impact I want to have. I've learned from my journey, as you mentioned beforehand, that I've experienced burnout and a career change myself as a working mom, the struggles of managing a career and managing a family.
And so usually these things come to me as well from just not wanting other people to struggle against things that we can change.
angela_r_howard (04:35.712)
Yeah, yeah, and what I'm hearing from you is that, and I agree, and this is a core issue, I think, with many of the system-wide changes that we're looking to make in our society, and that is that we put a lot of onus on the individual, and oftentimes we don't look at the system that is causing that behavior. And that's why I opened up with this intersection
systems theory and individual behavior. And I'm just really fascinated to hear more from you because the audience who is listening may have different varying levels of experience with systems theory or behavior change. Tell us a little bit about how those two interact at a basic level.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (05:26.791)
Right, right.
And so, as I mentioned, you can think about yourself as an individual and the things you bring. We all have personality tendencies, I call them rather than traits because these are things that we can adjust as needed. And there are usually upsides to lots of our personality traits, you know, being ambitious is a good thing, and then it can lead to overwork. So the same being a people pleaser can mean you're very caring, but if you constantly put other people's needs first. So
You know, there's always these two sides, and then it depends on what environment you're working in. And it depends on the family members you have around you, their commitments, and their needs. And then, as I said, it fits into the workplace. So you have all these different levels. And often what happens is there's a couple of sort of really.
sort of basic tenets that people believe that I think are myths. So, the first is, and it kind of comes from the serenity prayer about controlling what is within your control. And that makes sense to a certain extent, but yet
angela_r_howard (06:27.968)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (06:36.682)
Mm.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (06:42.138)
we do influence other people all the time. Some things are beyond our control that we can change. And when you put on this onus of only working on yourself because that's the only thing you can control, it's very limiting. And also in my mind, it's not true because all our behaviors can impact other people. In the same way that other people's behaviors are impacting us, we do impact other people. So we can make choices about those behaviors.
again, whether we do them out loud. So for example, people talk about quitting. And I understand that because, in some workplaces, it's not safe to put limits on your time. So you do it quietly, but as a leader, you could do the same thing out loud and be a role model. And that's what's so important in that sort of situation, the same behaviors from a different angle, from someone with a different sort of position in an organizational structure.
So I think that's important to understand that we have, you know, that our behaviors have so much more power, and we do have more power than what's within our control. So I like to step outside of that. And recently in the book I read, When Women Lead, the author Julia Borsten found that she appreciated understanding that, because instead of sort of saying,
angela_r_howard (07:55.954)
Hmm.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (08:08.05)
there are barriers around us that we can do nothing about. Once you start to go, there are barriers around us that I recognize and I have to somehow overcome, then this is, that's power, right? To say, I actually can see them. And that's part of the problem. Some of these are quite invisible in a certain way because they're baked into the water we swim in every day at work and we don't recognize them. And so then,
angela_r_howard (08:21.933)
Hmm.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (08:36.246)
I think the other thing that's a kind of a myth is that behavior change is based on willpower. And that's all we need. Just, I just need more willpower. I need to control my eating more or, you know, it's about this sort of control and willpower and again, that's, that's a myth.
angela_r_howard (08:43.023)
Yes.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (08:54.266)
And we need so much support to change our behaviors. Not only do we need to understand what are the behaviors that can be most impactful, and sometimes we get those completely wrong, but we have to have people who are accountability partners, who are support partners for us. We have to have tools that help us keep this top of mind and keep reminding us. We all need it.
rewards and so many people are like, oh, well, you have to have the intrinsic world do this for the moral good. We're motivated by external rewards. And particularly in workplaces, that is what is rewarded in the workplace. And recently with Mackenzie and Li Nin, one of the reports around the great breakup, is about senior women leaving workplaces. And you look at the
evaluation criteria and less than 50%, almost down to like 20%, people are being evaluated on career development, team morale, retention, on DEI. We're not being rewarded for working on these really important topics. And so it makes sense also to me that yes, what's not rewarded is what's not going to turn up.
angela_r_howard (10:17.996)
Hmm.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (10:18.654)
So we have to recognize that we need positive reinforcement and rewards and incentives, and these are driven by corporate values. So I think that's the thing. Behavior change needs a lot more support than we realize. When it's positioned within a framework of what is a
logical sort of psychological process. Then again, we sometimes think, well, you do this now and it's not going to have an impact till later. But if you know that those behaviors are crucial to these later processes, you can just focus on the behaviors and you can change those very quickly and you can see them, as I say, when they're done out loud, very quickly. So you can know you're having an impact straight away. Of course, trying to sustain them for long enough, that's definitely
angela_r_howard (11:13.445)
Mm-hmm.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (11:14.874)
whole next challenge. But I think that what's so positive about behaviors is we can make really small, out-loud behaviors that are impactful at all those levels.
angela_r_howard (11:26.455)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (11:29.968)
Yeah, no, I love your term out loud because it paints the picture of, I think, what happens with culture, which is like, you have the out loud behaviors and then you have the unsaid behaviors, right? The things that you just, like you said, you're swimming in the water and there's always the analogy which I'm sure you're familiar with is, fish doesn't know it's in water, right? Until it's out of the water. And so we are just.
fish in a big body of water, and some things come naturally to us. Usually, these are things that come from society culture, or tradition. These are things that just are. They just, they're a part of us and we don't assume anything else. The same thing happens within the lowercase culture within an organization. And this is human, this is human behavior. You know, we are.
from an anthropological perspective, we're tribal beings. We love traditions, we love rituals, and the same thing happens with an organization. So I think we have to acknowledge that, and especially as leaders, what are the things, and one of the questions that I asked during our culture assessment process, especially with new hires, we ask them,
what are some of the unsaid things that you kind of walked into starting at this organization? What are some things that just were happening and the words didn't match the actions because those things happen all the time within organizations? And so if you want to create change, you have to have some awareness around what those things are. And if you wanna make a change, I think role modeling is another brilliant.
point that you brought up, which is we can't ask everyone else to change if we as leaders are not role-modeling the path and doing things out loud explicitly to change. And that takes quite a bit of self-reflection, I think, from a leadership journey perspective.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (13:33.215)
Right.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (13:40.146)
Right, yes, it does in some ways. But also, I think it's thinking about what are the conditions that make change happen. And again, those conditions are also the same conditions that make it safe for employees of all identities. So for example, psychological safety, emotional intelligence, and to be honest, well-being, because again, if you're expecting
to change and they're already stressed out to the limit and they're overworked, then anything you try to do that's new or different is going to be met with exhaustion.
Um, and, and then if not, then in some cases, cynicism, if, if previously it had been sort of a branding exercise instead of a real change, but it has to feel safe for people to change. Cause I think the biggest part of change is a willingness to make mistakes because the process of changing is the process of finding out what works for whom, when, where, and in what situation. And that's what's so important in organizations is that you
have a process of learning what works in which situation. This particular tool and way of doing things, say, particular bias interruption techniques may work in one unit of your organization, but may not transfer to another. So again, it's finding out what, what are the really
things that do spread across the organization, but what are the adaptations that you have to make along the way? Or over time, because time changes things, like context and changes all the time, and then you have a new influx of employees with different values. So everything's shifting. So I think that's the biggest thing is to understand how dynamic change is,
dr_jacqueline_kerr (15:40.134)
and grow again.
ability to make mistakes and a growth mindset are all psychological safety and emotional intelligence. So those to me are like kind of the base conditions. So there can be some situations where there are core skills one might need to learn first before that can even happen. That can be in terms of conflict resolution or active listening or empowering listening, that there are some sort of base skills. And I think that's what other people
they don't realize like, this is not willpower. These are skills that we need to have, that we need to practice to then even get the conditions right for change to happen. So again, when we get stuck in this sense of awareness, that awareness is what we need. Yes, we, we kind of need to know where we're starting and where we're going. But that process of.
of just getting stuck in the awareness stage and not moving into the action stage. And so this is kind of the, even as one becomes aware and you want to change something, that's then your intention. And that gap between intention and action, the actual behavior.
You know, 20 years ago in our behavior change models, there used to just be an arrow between those two. And then suddenly you go, oh, actually that's the Grand Canyon. That's huge. That gap can be 10 years before you decide to act on your good intentions. So.
angela_r_howard (17:01.494)
Right.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (17:08.398)
it's a different process that has to happen, which is that process of actually developing the key skills that one needs, and having opportunities to practice. And again, not in isolation. That's why if we do our behavior change in isolation, we don't get the opportunity, one, to learn to practice in the context with which you're gonna apply the behavior, but also to get positive feedback when you're doing it well, which again, is that reinforcement. So it's not just that...
Um, change, in isolation is just one person versus multiple people trying to change together. It's not just the numbers of people that make a difference, but back to your sort of, um, anthropological roots, which is the best way we learn is social learning. That is the strongest way we can, we can learn because we have people we can imitate. We have role models to learn from. We have enforcement and.
you know, adjustments, feedback from those around us. And the group process itself has a power that is so important particularly as we go back to thinking about shared decision making. I found it helpful.
When I interviewed Rishika Tulshayan she explained it's not about being invited to the party It's that you planned the party You were the one that decided on you know the choice of music and food and dress and activities and so that shared decision-making is such an important part of Diversity equity inclusion, but also innovation and so
I think that's the process where we can be comfortable making our mistakes and growing and sort of embracing that experimental mindset and saying, okay, what have we learned from this situation? What have we learned from the unit over here? What can we conclude? And being very thoughtful about those learning cycles, and very intentional about them.
angela_r_howard (19:17.346)
What do you think is the gap that organizations, are causing that Grand Canyon gap between intention and action?
She's smiling for those of you who can't see.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (19:29.02)
Yeah. Why are we stuck in the status quo? Yeah. It's comfortable. Right. It's a comfortable change. Change is, is uncomfortable.
angela_r_howard (19:34.11)
Yes.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (19:43.922)
Um, and, and it's, and it's complicated because there isn't a silver bullet or one size fits all again, that's why change is the process of, of learning what these adaptations are. Um, and that can be overwhelming change can be overwhelming, especially if you're already in burnout or if you spend a lot of time believing you're doing your best already in terms of the, um, several reports come out from
angela_r_howard (19:57.261)
Hmm.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (20:13.856)
what CEOs are offering as caring and what employees are receiving as caring, and all these perks and mental health benefits. That's not what employees want. They want organizational change. So there's this frustration of feeling like you're doing everything you can do and it is not being well received.
and not working and being a waste of time and money. So then that generates fear and scarcity in itself. And then to me, really the two biggest things are the one, believing that it stops with self-awareness, and two, that it is based on individual change. And I think when you are stuck in those two mindsets of individual control and willpower, then you don't, as I say, you don't.
angela_r_howard (20:38.42)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (20:51.841)
Mm.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (21:06.018)
have the safety or the courage to make mistakes and learn in front of others which creates that whole growth mindset. And you, you know, do get stuck. Because then change, it's not collective change, right? That's, there's a fantastic quote about how change isn't worth anything if it's not collective. And so that that's really
where we need to move is to be able to make changes as groups. And as I say, role models are so important in that, because again, it gives us the confidence to see somebody else doing it. Also, they then do the behaviors that we want to also do, because sometimes there is that situation of people saying, I just don't know what to do. And I still find that frustrating because there are so many good.
playbooks out there. There are so many good models and really specific advice about what to do. And so again, I think some people do
start and then get stuck. And so, you know, I have a guide on my website that goes through, you know, did you set up the conditions for change? Did you get input from the people who are affected by this change? Are you celebrating change along the way? Did you even communicate your vision for this change from the beginning? And this is part of the problem, again,
people can obstruct change and potentially from a good place, which is, you know,
dr_jacqueline_kerr (22:51.166)
this, you know, you didn't get my input, this isn't going to work. Um, or, um, you know, again, you, you've made these false branding promises before. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna play into that game anymore. I want to see real change. Um, and so yeah, that, that process of, of having, um, you know, a much clearer.
vision with much clearer rewarded steps along the way is so important. And again, I think it does come back to us thinking about sorts of rewards. We can incentivize, absolutely incentivize people to change. Up front, we say these are the things we're going to reward. This is what we want you to do. And so I think those incentives aren't there. And to be honest, the investment is not there.
angela_r_howard (23:42.545)
No.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (23:43.003)
Um, and that's, that's again, back to choices, right?
angela_r_howard (23:47.388)
Right, yeah, and it's back to your point about, you know, all these, I don't know, programs that employers are kind of throwing at the wall to see what sticks. It's not enough. It's not enough because...
You know and then to come back and say well people aren't we've done everything around wellness and nobody's taking advantage of it Right and that's mainly because this the system the reinforcement, you know, when you build a house it needs to be reinforced Right. You just don't lay the foundation and then leave to create The structure of the house you have to create beams and pillars and make sure it's reinforced so that they don't fall on your head Same thing with systems work
We have to have those systems in place. We have to be intentional about those things. And to your point back around self-driven will and change around it, I kind of have a, I mean, maybe this is a taboo way to say this, but I think we have less self-control around our behaviors than we think. There are so many factors that drive the way
we behave and it's all the ripple effect. It's the way we were raised, and our background. It is also the fact that we're mimetic beings and we actually, our desires and how we interact with others can be influenced. It's the systems that are around us. It's the way our community behaves or what's considered appropriate or not. So a lot of our behaviors are kind of...
you know, shaped for us in a way. And that's because we are social learning beings. We're not meant to be just individuals, you know, navigating the world by ourselves. You know, there's a human, I think, instinctual element to that. That makes the development of systems and kind of taking the best of the human experience to change behavior.
angela_r_howard (25:59.816)
versus just throwing something at a wall and saying, oh, hope that works.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (26:04.322)
Right, right. And I understand throwing those band-aids or, you know, putting band-aids and throwing, it feels like whack-a-mole, you know, because each new problem that comes up and you're just trying to, you know, respond at the moment. But I also think that is part of our culture, this sort of response instant gratification, not long-term intention. And I think that's some of the frameworks that we can think about, about being able to see
angela_r_howard (26:08.594)
Mm-hmm.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (26:30.55)
the forest and the trees, right? Seeing the big picture and the long-term impacts rather than thinking about putting out forest fires right now, it's about preventing the forest fires. And so I think that mindset isn't, you know, again, I've seen it from public health too. We are much more involved in the medical treatment, putting out the fire, the gratification, and sort of.
angela_r_howard (26:59.156)
Yeah.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (26:59.414)
hero mindset that comes from that versus this long-term prevention approach. And again, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. It is so much more impactful for so many more people. So I think that mindset isn't necessarily
present in, I think, cultures where the individual is celebrated as being.
empowered. And so I agree, I think a lot of people in the US, they don't like it when you say you don't have as much control as you think, because such a basis of the culture here is, you know, individual control and individual empowerment. And what's so interesting about that from the perspective of parental burnout. So I had interviewed Isabel Roskam, who has done studies
angela_r_howard (27:39.992)
Mm-hmm.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (28:08.972)
countries around the world for parental burnout. And basically, parental burnout is higher in countries where there is a culture of an individual focus because you feel like, you can't ask for help. It's weak to ask for help. You know, this is not what I'm supposed to do. I'm a bad parent if I need help. And so that's such...
angela_r_howard (28:19.683)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (28:25.125)
Mm-hmm.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (28:31.726)
To me, that's such a tragedy because actually, the first step in developing resilience and strength is asking for help. So I think we are, we're not helping ourselves with that individual mindset. And also it's just so not true. I mean, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Some people don't have boots, let alone bootstraps to pull themselves up with. So it's not like we're on an equal.
playing field at any level. And there's just new reports coming out yesterday. I think Oxfam was saying that poverty is increasing and that the disparities are widening. Some of that has been due to COVID-19 as well, and some of these disparities were exacerbated. So...
Yeah, I mean, in some ways, it's like we, we still have so much to do. And so it does. I get that feeling of being overwhelmed when you look and think, well, we have to change the whole world and how do we do that? And so there was one, um, podcast that I appreciated where, um, they talked about it being a wall and, you know, when you feel that sense of overwhelm.
angela_r_howard (29:43.686)
Mm.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (29:47.69)
just focus on the brick in front of you and work away at that brick to dismantle this wall knowing that there is somebody next to you also dismantling a brick. So I think again, it's okay sometimes that we do have to bring our brains back to say, this is doable, this is achievable. If I just keep doing this one thing in front of me, I am making a difference and you are.
angela_r_howard (29:54.1)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (29:59.851)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (30:13.757)
Mm-hmm.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (30:14.762)
But it's also then taking the time once that sort of amygdala is nice and calm to go, okay, actually, you know, how about we work on this together? We're going to dismantle this wall more quickly and more fairly. And I think that's that thing about the intention that you mentioned. So in this book, How the Future Works, it was all about how we can create
angela_r_howard (30:33.678)
Mm-hmm.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (30:43.538)
hybrid and remote workplaces, but that they're intentional. So for example, we went into remote and hybrid due to COVID and it wasn't intentional. And then of course we do have these consequences which is proximity bias, right? That there are always potential negative consequences of what we do unless we're very intentional about saying those.
angela_r_howard (30:49.339)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (31:05.903)
Mm-hmm.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (31:09.442)
things are going to happen. These biases are so, and these stereotypes are so part of the water we swim in that they are going to propagate. You move from the head office on Fifth Avenue to a head office on remote, the same stereotypes come with you unless you create them to be very intentional, to have agreements around.
angela_r_howard (31:26.347)
Mm-hmm.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (31:37.814)
how you contribute to meetings having limits on those meetings and creating a place that everybody benefits from, from the first start. And I suppose that's what's a little frustrating for me when we are creating. I understand with COVID we were just responding. But when we have the opportunity to create new systems, like let's create them from the start.
angela_r_howard (31:56.152)
Mm-hmm.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (32:05.542)
intentionally to work for everybody. Because again, the systems we have in place were never created, to work for everybody. But we can create different systems now, with that intention.
angela_r_howard (32:13.894)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (32:21.295)
Mm.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (32:21.598)
Um, and I think that's part of this. Uh, I don't know what you think about this because it is, it's, you know, some theories of systems change, basically saying you have to just create an alternative system because you can't necessarily fix the original system. So yeah, what's your perspective on that? Cause again, I see people leaving corporate America and I understand why, but then it worries me, okay, the system itself won't change. So what are your thoughts about like?
angela_r_howard (32:41.08)
Mm-hmm.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (32:48.774)
within system change versus creating an alternative system that has a different foundation.
angela_r_howard (32:56.86)
Yeah, I mean, I love you're talking about a kind of equitable system design. And, you know, when we talk about equity, we're talking about equal outcomes. Um, we're not talking about equal kind of spreading the peanut butter. Same, same, um, structure for everybody necessarily. It's how do you create equitable systems that benefit everybody?
I love to break shit. So I might lean on the fact that like, we just have to like tear the whole thing down and rebuild. But I don't think that's always necessary. I think to your point, if we can start to deconstruct with those bricks that you were talking about, I think it just depends on the outcome and how big the system is disconnected from the system we need to build.
And the workplace, I think, was one of those big systems that needed to be rebuilt, that was built in an age of inequality and equity, widgets and factories and the industrial revolution, and we're still using the same paradigms that were established. So I guess my answer is both, but I do lean toward breaking stuff. And I think we need to do that. We have to just...
completely deconstruct our thinking, and our paradigms, and imagine a different world.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (34:24.682)
Right, right, yeah. And I agree with that, starting from that end place and then reverse engineering me is so important because we need to know where we're going and then how we get there. But also without this sort of shame and blame along the way, which again comes from when we tend to point our finger and say, you know, this is your fault. And I like that sort of,
angela_r_howard (34:31.764)
Yes, exactly.
angela_r_howard (34:44.12)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (34:50.449)
Mm-hmm.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (34:54.59)
Because again, I think that's the other piece that we're very good at doing is labeling, labeling people, labeling ourselves, you know, myself as a bad mom, bad wife, bad colleague, you know, and I had to work around that mindset. But I think even just sort of understanding when we put a label on somebody,
angela_r_howard (35:03.27)
Mm-hmm.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (35:20.906)
You know, the example Brenny Brown gives is like her daughter and my daughter's the same. They both are messy, but they make messes because when you put somebody in that sort of label of you are messy, then you think, okay, this is how I'm designed to be. I'm not supposed to change. There's no growth opportunity for me here. And so I think that's the same when you also accuse someone of being a racist.
angela_r_howard (35:27.337)
Yeah.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (35:49.374)
then the natural action is going to be defense and shame versus providing that alternative vision, which is what is anti-racist behavior? Not the label, but then, what are the decisions that you make every day?
angela_r_howard (36:02.802)
Mm-hmm.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (36:09.61)
towards making a more equitable workplace, for example. So I think also that shift away from, you know, that shame and blame into, okay, the alternative behaviors. Because even with behavior change, that works well. If you think about trying to...
Giving up a bad behavior is much harder because you're focusing on the negative behavior, you're focusing on, oh, I'm so bad that I do this behavior versus taking up a new behavior. So you could imagine it in terms of trying to give up sugar versus taking up eating more fruit and vegetables. So once you take up eating more fruit and vegetables, one, you suddenly don't even think about sugar anymore, but two, you're just focusing on this new
angela_r_howard (36:41.158)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (36:53.157)
Mm-hmm.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (36:56.238)
positive behavior. And I think that's part of this. It's not saying that there shouldn't be situations where there are reparations and justice circles. But if we can focus on the new positive behaviors from a behavioral standpoint, we know that that's much more effective. And I think it does take us out of this.
individual shame and blame place where we don't respond well and we don't do the things that are going to help shift the needle.
angela_r_howard (37:33.884)
Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love where this conversation is going because I think it paints the picture of where we are right now with some of these. So we're in the intention phase, right? I think as a country some of the systems that we're experiencing and the fact that they are not fair or not equitable, need to change. There is a group of people who may think they don't need to change. And I think we're coming to this head of
push and pull, which we're feeling the friction of those two things. And I do think, I agree with you, of course, about adding positive behaviors. But there's also accountability to your point, which is at what point do you move from someone who needs to make a decision around justice and to make a decision about a system that needs to change? Where do we need policy change to happen? Where do we need to hold people accountable who
you know, refuse to change, right? Because that's a part of that reinforcement system that we talked about. So, Jacqueline, we've talked about a lot today. I wanna kind of just summarize a few things. You know, one, I think your experience as a behavioral scientist, you've provided such fantastic perspective on the role of role modeling, on the interaction between systems.
building and rebuilding and when it comes down to just kind of individual behaviors over time. And you know some of the myths that we experience when we talk about behavior change and this big grand canyon that you mentioned between intent and action. You know I know a lot of people might hire someone like you and me to do this work but one of the things that I always reinforce is
We need, I believe we need to start instilling this in our actual skill set, you know, from a business perspective, from a leadership perspective, because this is work that a consultant or an HR person or even a chief diversity officer, someone who's appointed to behavior change in a certain way isn't able to sustain unless it's built into the fabric of the organization.
angela_r_howard (39:52.616)
So I just, again, love your mindset and how you're approaching this work. Where can we find you? So if people wanna reach out, they're intrigued with the work that you're doing, or wanna work with you or bring you into their organization or team, how can they find you?
dr_jacqueline_kerr (40:10.882)
Great. Thanks for that. Great summary too. Um, yeah, so probably the best place is my website, which is drjacklinker.com. And I have, um, lots of free resources there. Um, I host my podcast, overcoming working on burnout. So you can get that there or wherever podcasts are available. Um, my TEDx talk.
angela_r_howard (40:13.224)
Yeah.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (40:34.694)
is there, which also focuses on how we prevent burnout in this sort of societal and structural way. Hopefully, in 2023, I'm trying to launch a new leadership development program for women leaders to lead with more confidence and credibility based on understanding how change occurs and how you can lead change. As I say, some of my role models.
some of the incentivization and other tools coming from behavior change science and being applied to these, you know, challenging situations of workplace burnout and bias. So yeah, all those things can be found on my website.
angela_r_howard (41:23.216)
Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for committing your time and brilliance with us today. Appreciate you.
dr_jacqueline_kerr (41:32.823)
Thank you.
