Reimagine Inclusion with Mita Mallick
Angela R Howard (00:01.342)
All right, hello everyone. My name is Angela Howard and I am the CEO of Call for Culture and the host of Social Responsibility at Work. Excited to be with you all today. And I am here with a very special guest, Mita Malik who is joining us to, first and foremost we're going to have a chat about her new and upcoming book, Reimagine Inclusion. But also I wanna mention that Mita is a
what I like to call multi-hyphenated wonder because there's like this list of things that I started writing down, author, published in Entrepreneur magazine, like all these things. So I'm gonna let you do your introduction and tell us a little bit more about your story and the impact you're looking to make on the world.
Mita Mallick (00:32.289)
No.
Mita Mallick (00:49.593)
Thank you for having me. That's a lot of pressure. Let's do a killer introduction. What can I share about myself? Well, my superpower and my passion is storytelling. I currently am the head of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion at Carta. I am also a business executive and most importantly, a mom to Priya, who turned eight recently going on 18, and Jay, who's 10, going on 20. So that's a little bit of a glimpse of my life.
And I do this work for them. I do this work for all of our children. I grew up in a time and a place where it was not cool to be Indian. I was the funny-looking dark-skinned girl with the long-looking braid whose parents spoke funny English. Until it wasn't funny anymore, I was the proud daughter, I am the proud daughter of Indian immigrant parents. And for most of my life, I just felt like I didn't belong in my community and the greater world. And that feeling has stayed with me. You know, Angela, I always...
joke, not joke, saying that I didn't realize that the bullies from the schoolyards and the classrooms would follow me into corporate America. And so I think I've been, as I talk about in Reimagined Inclusion, I've been chasing inclusion all my life. I've been chasing it all my life.
Angela R Howard (02:00.99)
I mean, first of all, what a great story about how you got here and why you're doing this work. So really inspired by the work that you're doing and also I think the edge that you have with your message is all around action and change. So I think there's a lot of people doing DE&I work and I continue to think about how we unpack.
these ideas so that we can ensure that bullies don't exist in the workplace and that exclusion is not a part of the cultural fabric of an organization. So just thank you for putting in the work and doing it with passion and having that why anchored to it.
Mita Mallick (02:41.389)
Thank you, I appreciate you, thank you.
Angela R Howard (02:44.29)
So tell us a little bit more about the book. And I also would love to just unpack the different myths and the storytelling that you build into the book.
Mita Mallick (02:56.281)
So my mother reminded me that I've been wanting to be an author ever since I could hold a pen. I want to share this part of the story. It's important because some of you listening might think that I'm an overnight success. I'm not. I was the editor of my fifth-grade newspaper. I wrote a screenplay in high school that was based on my version of the Big Fat Indian wedding. I left undergrad wrote three novels and had an agent.
Angela R Howard (03:04.927)
Mm-hmm.
Mita Mallick (03:26.197)
None of them got published, and my agent dumped me. I then went to graduate school because I thought, well, I can't make money off of writing, so let me get an MBA. While in graduate school, and right after that, I finished a fourth novel, but still couldn't find an agent. And so then I ended up going into this track, into marketing and brand management, and I buried the dream. And you know what happens when you bury a seed, it starts to flourish over time, and I found my way back to writing.
I wrote this book four years ago. So people listening are like, wow, I really wanted to be an author, but this is not, this has taken practice time commitment discipline. I didn't give up. So I wrote this book four years ago and I thought to myself, like you said, there are a lot of people I know doing great DE and I work. And there's a lot of good books out there, but for me, Angela, I thought to myself, we're not saying the quiet parts out loud.
Angela R Howard (04:15.317)
Mm.
Mita Mallick (04:15.545)
So I wrote this book, Reimagine Inclusion, debunking 13 myths to transform your workplace. Why 13? Because it's my lucky number. I picked 13. There are more than 13. But I thought to myself, what are the most common things, the stories, the myths we hold onto that we believe are true and hold us back from doing work in our organizations? That's meaningful. And so that's my story with the book. I will tell you also about the book.
I had so many rejections. I had people who said to me, come back to me when you have a book more like Sheryl Sandberg. There are a lot of people like Meeta writing books like this. Meeta's words pop off the page. And we wish she had more followers, so we're going to pass. And so you know how some people have a rainy day folder of all the praise that you get? You all should have a rainy day folder. But I have a folder of rejections.
Angela R Howard (04:50.661)
Hmm.
Angela R Howard (05:01.858)
Hmm.
Mita Mallick (05:11.853)
which I think is important because now it means so much to me that the book is coming out I went back the other day and went back to all those rejections, right? And they're there, they're sitting there, but it's just really powerful and meaningful that I'm getting this book published.
Angela R Howard (05:20.799)
Mm-hmm.
Angela R Howard (05:27.326)
Yeah, and you bring up a perfect point, and I do wanna spend some time just about the process of the book because I want to also highlight the lack of representation when it comes to thought leadership and the fact that I think not only are you focusing on this conversation, I think you also have that real-world experience of working as a DE&I leader. So that is something that I think is also very unique.
Mita Mallick (05:31.907)
Yes.
Mita Mallick (05:52.301)
Mm-hmm.
Angela R Howard (05:56.302)
And it provides a really powerful, rich perspective, especially from storytelling, like connecting it back to, these aren't just concepts, these are things that are happening within the workplace.
Mita Mallick (06:06.253)
Right, absolutely.
Angela R Howard (06:09.63)
And you also have a podcast. So I'd love to hear a little bit about that because I know a lot of the stories you share with your co-host are very much aligned, with your book.
Mita Mallick (06:11.385)
I did.
Mita Mallick (06:18.617)
So the podcast is called Brown Table Talk. My friend DC Marshall and I co-host it. It is part of LinkedIn's podcast network. And we are really on a mission to unpack it all, spill the tea, and share all the stories of women of color facing their workplaces. We started it because, for years, we'd be trading audio messages, late-night dinner calls, and texts. And we thought, why don't we turn this into a podcast and see what happens? So we self-funded it. And then LinkedIn came knocking.
But it's also, Angela, a place for allies to show up. We have allies who reach out to us to say, we've never heard these stories. No one has very openly talked about things in the way you're talking about it. And women of color can't win at work without allies showing up and stepping up. And so that's the important piece we try to leave with every episode. And yes, if you love roundtable talk, you will love Reimagine Inclusion.
Angela R Howard (07:12.715)
Yes, and I think, you know, the myths part of the book, which I want to dig into because I just want to provide kind of my perspective because, like you, I worked as a CHRO with an organization. So like just listening to you and following you and I just ordered the book so I'm excited to receive it. Has brought home for me that there are these just unsaid.
Mita Mallick (07:16.59)
Sure.
Mita Mallick (07:31.598)
Hello, thank you.
Angela R Howard (07:40.93)
right under the surface elements to exclusion at work, to lack of equity at work, to toxic culture at work. And so let's maybe talk about one myth in the book that is especially close to your heart that you really wanna drive home with your readers. I know, yes, let's try.
Mita Mallick (07:48.383)
Mm-hmm.
Mita Mallick (08:00.769)
Well, that's like asking me to pick my favorite style. But let's do it. Well, one of the ones that I have struggled with in my career is really around pay and equity. And one of the myths goes something like this. Why are you asking for a raise? Your husband makes more than enough money. And that is a true story of something that happened to me earlier in my career when I went and did all the things you're supposed to do. I.
researched how much my role was worth externally. I knew what points I had put on the board. I wanted to have this conversation during a performance review. I went with a smile. I mustered up the courage. And I asked this former manager if he would review my pay. Because I knew that, as many of us know when you bring in external talent, team dynamics change, and the pay and equities.
will inevitably come up because you are trying to attract talent and likely paying them more, versus thinking about who's there continuing to do the work. And that was his response to me. Why are you asking for a raise? Your husband makes more than enough money. And somehow, he had found out what my husband did for a living. And I had tried to conceal it from him because I knew I would be punished for it. So one of the things, Angela, I talk about in the book is this myth that women don't negotiate.
many women negotiate and they're dismissed, they're minimized and they're gaslighted. And so it is important to have all the processes and structures in place, just as you did when you were a CHRO, just as you do now and helping and working with clients, but it comes down to the individual and our biases and what we think about when it comes to money. Like if I was asking you for a raise versus I'm gonna make Jeff, who's a white man.
Angela R Howard (09:54.562)
Hmm.
Angela R Howard (09:59.15)
Thanks for watching!
Mita Mallick (09:59.737)
Does that trigger, why does me asking you for a raise trigger you more versus him, or does it, right? Does that matter? You know, one of the stories I share in the book, Angela, is that I was preparing to go to a leadership offsite and culturally, as I said, of South Asian descent, I like my jewelry. It's the one thing I will spend money on. And I...
Angela R Howard (10:06.095)
Hmm
Angela R Howard (10:19.256)
Hmm.
Mita Mallick (10:24.397)
did not wear my engagement ring. And my husband said, well, why aren't you wearing your ring? And I was like, well, I'm up for a pay review. And I don't want to give them any reason to not pay me more. And I've had girlfriends I've had these conversations with. You don't need to be putting out, bringing your best logo bags and your best designer shoes. I've been in conversations, with Angela, where, in talent reviews, well, she's carrying a Birkin bag around.
Angela R Howard (10:44.813)
Mm.
Mita Mallick (10:52.149)
I don't think she needs the 5% raise. Or her husband's in sales, and he's killing it. He's going to get a great commission this year, so you can bump her 5% down to 3%. Or Meeta, she is the sole breadwinner of her family. She's not going to go anywhere. So you can make that bonus just a little bit less. And so these are all how our bias shows up. What do you think?
Angela R Howard (10:52.48)
Mm.
Angela R Howard (11:08.061)
Mm-hmm.
Mita Mallick (11:17.313)
we would have a conversation if a man was carrying a Birkin bag that we would say, and now I'm picking on Jeff, but Jeff, who I just made up is carrying a Birkin bag. Oh, gosh. Well, we certainly don't have to pay him more. He makes more than enough.
Angela R Howard (11:25.566)
Oh, Jeff.
Angela R Howard (11:34.754)
Hmm. Yeah, there's there's so I mean, there's so much to unpack there. I mean, as far as bias and gender roles. And racism and like so many so many things, I think we could just like veer off into. But I think it comes down to like I mentioned that kind of like just below the surface, these things that these conversations and discussions, calibration meetings that like I'm having a little you know, a little bit. Yes.
Mita Mallick (11:47.959)
Yes.
Mita Mallick (11:53.899)
Yes.
Mita Mallick (12:01.381)
Are you having heart palpitations?
Angela R Howard (12:04.494)
I've been in way too many, right? Where we're talking or we're saying some damaging things and it's just a part of our conversation. She doesn't have executive presence or they didn't go to the happy hour last week so I don't think they're committed to this work. I don't think they're in it for the long haul and it's like, please explain to me how not going to a happy hour or not.
Mita Mallick (12:07.undefined)
Thanks.
Mita Mallick (12:14.603)
See you.
Angela R Howard (12:31.186)
speaking up at every single meeting and being the focal point in the room means that you're not capable and talented enough to do the work. So those calibration meetings caused me a little bit of stress as well.
Mita Mallick (12:41.829)
Flashbacks. And Angela, for those listening, I hope one of the things you take away is that it's all of our jobs to interrupt that bias. And it's never too late. You can do it at the moment, or you can do it afterward. And how you do it is, and as you read Reimagine Inclusion, you will see, and if you know me, I'm not about naming, shaming, and blaming. I am about meeting people where they are. Because if I name, shame, and blame you, I've ruined the relationship, I've damaged it, I can't reach you anymore. And so rather than saying,
Angela R Howard (12:50.615)
Yes.
Mita Mallick (13:10.957)
Well, Angela, that's quite a sexist comment. I can say, well, Angela, you just mentioned that you are concerned about Meeta's commitment to her role. Can we explore that a little bit more? Are there other ways that you've seen her lack of commitment show up in this performance cycle? And then all of a sudden, what you're trying to do, and you know you've done this in your role as a CHRO, you're trying to get people to self-reflect, and you're coaching them and trying to understand.
Angela R Howard (13:29.983)
Yes.
Mita Mallick (13:40.597)
And then I think what happens is if you do this in front of other people, it also becomes about role modeling. And that other people will also start to think, oh, the reality is we all have bias. If you were a human being, you have bias. The question is, how do you think about the first thought you have in your head? And you might hold that thought and think about, OK, well, I'm going to take a different action as a result of it because I can catch myself in my head. Because that's the beauty of it. No one can hear.
Angela R Howard (13:45.838)
Absolutely.
Angela R Howard (14:08.366)
Hmm.
Mita Mallick (14:10.273)
what's happening in her head. No one can hear what's happening in her head. So you can, yeah, we're human. You might have that thought about somebody, and then you check yourself. You check yourself.
Angela R Howard (14:11.838)
Yes, I know, surprising, right?
Angela R Howard (14:22.998)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the things I think a lot about is bias, but also the fact that you know, bias usually appears when we kind of go to default mode, right, when we're maybe under threat, there's stress, there's chaos. And there's a lot of threat right now. There's a lot of, you know, as we talk about DE&I, I was just watching the news before our conversation and.
Mita Mallick (14:39.919)
Yes.
Mm. Yes.
Angela R Howard (14:50.306)
defunding DE&I and there are a lot of eyeballs and feelings of threat around this work. So how are you dealing with that and addressing that? Because you do have a very beautiful, artful way of coaching and not shaming and blaming. But then how do you also meet that with just this high tension of this work?
Mita Mallick (15:13.749)
Yeah, and that's a great question. I'm still on that journey trying to figure that out. I think that one of the things, is anytime that we're afraid of something, it's easier just to other it or demonize it. You think about wokeness and anti-wokeness, right? You think about social media and the things that sometimes get a lot of clicks. It's like things that are really like visceral gut reactions or hate. Let's just call it what it is.
Angela R Howard (15:40.322)
Hmm.
Mita Mallick (15:44.009)
And so how do you get to know experiences that aren't your own? And that's the key. And one of the things I discuss in Reimagine Inclusion is that we have this backward. We're chasing inclusion in our workplaces. Inclusion doesn't start at our conference room tables, it starts at our kitchen room tables. The reality is in the US today, two-thirds of white Americans are still segregating and it's similar numbers for black Americans.
Angela R Howard (16:04.617)
Mm.
Mita Mallick (16:13.141)
And so I do this exercise with leaders where I say, I go through a series of questions and I say, who are the five people who are not in your family that you consider friends, that you call during a moment of distress, celebration, something you need advice on? And here's the deal, if they'll all look like you, act like you, and think like you, let's be honest in saying we're self-segregating. So how can we say,
that we care about Black Lives Matter if we don't have any meaningful relationships with Black people in our lives? How can we understand anti-Asian hate sentiment? How can we understand what's happening with anti-LGBTQ legislation and that community's rights are being threatened every single day? Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, I can go on and on. There are so many communities being hurt and harmed. But if I have a relationship with someone from that community that's meaningful, and hopefully more than one,
Angela R Howard (17:02.768)
Mm-hmm.
Mita Mallick (17:11.273)
You start to, then the hate is gone, the fear-mongering is gone, the othering is gone. That is no longer that this is seen as a threat because they don't understand it. I mean, I can't wrap my head around defunding DE&I. I was like, huh? It's just like, what? My brain can't process it because it does not make sense to me. And then I'll turn it back over to you to get your reaction. But then no longer. A lot of these conversations I have with leaders over the years.
Angela R Howard (17:24.43)
Thanks for watching!
Angela R Howard (17:35.842)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mita Mallick (17:42.453)
Is it politics? Is this too political that we're addressing this? And then it's, no, it's human rights. It is human rights. I don't know a single black friend or colleague who I know would say that Black Lives Matter is not a human rights issue.
Angela R Howard (17:48.887)
Yes.
Mita Mallick (18:01.249)
Xenophobia is not a human rights issue. Anti-LGBTQ legislation is not a human right. Any time anybody is being hurt and harmed and their life is at risk, it is a human rights issue, right? It is not political, but it is through the lens in which you see it. Because if that hasn't been your life experience, then it can become really easy for us to say, oh, well, that's political. They're being too woke. We need to defund that. Isn't that easier to do that than take the time to learn?
the experience.
Angela R Howard (18:33.586)
Yes, 100%. And yeah, I agree with you. It's a human rights issue. And when we go back to workplaces, because I think that's a lens, it's one of the systems in which this work is being worked on. There are many other systems and areas where we need to connect the dots, but from a workplace perspective, I oftentimes, not that I stay away from the DE&I language, but it is culture work.
Mita Mallick (18:52.769)
Yes.
Mita Mallick (19:03.113)
Mm-hmm. Thank you. You're welcome.
Angela R Howard (19:03.222)
This is about how our businesses run, our value system, if we just anchor it back into our value system, even as a country, what is the experience that we want people to have here? And of course, we know there's a lot of historical context to that as to why we are where we are. But I agree with you, I think we peg this as a political issue and we're just talking about
Mita Mallick (19:11.841)
Yes.
Mita Mallick (19:24.481)
Right, of course. Of course.
Angela R Howard (19:33.07)
creating opportunity, and keeping people alive. And that is the other kind of sad part of this work is that we're just trying to get to survival. And that is, what breaks my heart. That breaks my heart that we have to talk about defunding DE&I when we still have attacks on black bodies and we still have issues with human rights and LGBTQ. It's just, so sorry, that was my reaction, but.
Mita Mallick (19:36.846)
Mm-hmm.
Mita Mallick (19:42.777)
Yeah.
Mita Mallick (19:48.628)
Thank you.
Mita Mallick (19:56.037)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Good. Mm-hmm.
Angela R Howard (20:01.994)
You know, I do think that your book, because we're talking about re-imagining inclusion, I just think some of our language around this work, maybe we have a branding issue. You know, it's like, can we just talk about what we're talking about here? Let's stop throwing out DE&I and the letters. Let's talk about what we're talking about.
Mita Mallick (20:17.625)
Yeah.
Mita Mallick (20:21.945)
Well, it's interesting, there was an article in the New York Times that I haven't read yet, but I had several people send it to me. What are their words? Diversity, inclusion, is it now diversity in belonging? Is it justice? Is it included? What is it? And at the end of the day, I say, we all want to be valued, seen, and recognized for our contributions at work. And when we do that, we feel like we're included. We feel like we belong. We feel like we made the right choice. And there is nothing like inclusion to be a driver of retention.
I don't care how many free snacks you give me, fancy snacks, meditation apps, ping pong table, black hoodie, another Yeti Tumbler, whatever you want to add to the list, but there is nothing like, if I work for Angela and she sees me and she values me, I feel included, I feel belonged, I don't care if you offered me 15, $20,000 to go move to another company, because that risk for me is not worth it, right? Because that other company is unknown.
Versus I know that I'm valued here. I know that I'm being invested. I know that I'm being taken care of
Angela R Howard (21:24.746)
Yeah, so let's talk about that for a moment, because you are speaking my, that's music to my ears because I do think, you know, I'm working with a lot of organizations, our call for culture works with organizations to help them with their culture and create a more positive, healthy culture. And I cannot tell you how many times I work with an organization, and they give me this big, beautiful laundry list of the things they're doing for their people. Well, we have the food trucks on Fridays,
Mita Mallick (21:37.209)
Yeah.
Angela R Howard (21:54.562)
the free tea in the break room, and we've given everybody a $50 referral fee for it, and I'm just like, okay, well, tell me a little bit about your leadership. People feel safe. Do they feel like their work is valued? Are their roles clear? Are they doing mental cartwheels when they go to work every day? Are they putting in emotional labor when they're working with their team? And it's just like crickets, you know? And it's like, but we're doing all these things. Isn't that great? Look at all these.
Mita Mallick (21:56.875)
Hmm.
Mita Mallick (22:03.169)
Yes. Yes.
Mita Mallick (22:12.493)
Mm-hmm.
Mita Mallick (22:20.153)
But we have the $50 gym reimbursement.
Angela R Howard (22:23.21)
Yes, all of that, all those things are great. They're great perks, but all you're getting is the big old eye roll where it's like, okay, you're giving me $50 to work out at a gym, but you're also forcing me to answer emails on a Sunday when I'm supposed to be with my family. But you wanna build a culture of well-being. And so people are, I think, just so, and we see it, right? I mean, we have all these buzzwords around like quitting and.
Mita Mallick (22:25.262)
Yes.
Mita Mallick (22:40.501)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mita Mallick (22:52.622)
Yeah.
Angela R Howard (22:52.714)
all of these, I would call them more kind of like, buzzy, newsworthy, not newsworthy, but highlights that end up on a news headline somewhere. But really, I think what people are saying is, I'm tired of being exploited. I'm tired of being in an environment where I'm not valued, seen, and heard, to your point. I don't feel like I belong, or I'm in a toxic environment where my leader is.
Mita Mallick (23:10.074)
Mm-hmm.
Angela R Howard (23:19.978)
We have all these beautiful core values on the wall, but my leader is creating unsafe environments for the team. So it's kind of maddening to see that mismatch, that cognitive dissonance between our words and our actions.
Mita Mallick (23:24.644)
Okay.
Mita Mallick (23:28.834)
Okay.
Mita Mallick (23:33.477)
So for our listeners today, do me a favor. Check your calendar for tomorrow. I want you to look at what meetings you have who's invited to the meetings who's excluded and why haven't been included. And this, Angela, has plagued me my entire career. If I have done the work, why can't I present it? Why can't I present my work? And so many of us would agree meetings, and how we run them, are fundamentally broken. I'm not advocating.
My expertise is not how you should run your meeting, but I will tell you, that meetings can be a driver, and invites to meetings can be a driver of inclusion. And so I also don't buy this notion that, oh, the more people in the meeting, productivity declines, not if you give people roles as I talk about re-imagined inclusion, right? And also like if you're having an executive meeting and I'm on Angela's team, Angela can just have me come and present the proposal for a few minutes. I don't need to stay for however long.
But it's very interesting to me the hierarchy and politics that still exist in some organizations where people aren't presenting the work they're doing. And that goes back to feeling valued, seen, and recognized, right? And that's so, so important. So important.
Angela R Howard (24:54.242)
And it goes back to the original story you shared about the increase, which is this idea of autonomy and that you are an autonomous person. And there's also this general lack of trust and feeling that we need to have oversight on all the individuals, especially I think women and women of color within the workplace. We just can't trust them to get the job done. Yes.
Mita Mallick (25:15.289)
Mm-hmm.
It's the micromanagement, right? And why? Because there's nothing that's going to kill my spirit faster and have me walk out the door faster than micromanaging every single move I make. And why? What is the need for control there? Why? And what does that say about you as a leader? When honestly, you should be focused on more strategic things. Let me figure out when the samples are coming and when I'm going to show them to the vice president and me.
I, it boggles my mind. The things that we do every day and the things that we could do differently every day to create a more inclusive environment. Imagine if each of us walked into work tomorrow and just thought of one thing we were gonna do differently. That's the ripple effect because this isn't one person's job. That's a really heavy burden to bear. But like every single person shows up thinking, okay, I'm gonna show up differently today. And what does that look like?
Angela R Howard (26:11.874)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and what are some of the paradigms that have plagued the workplace? Things like feelings of control, that there's some version of loyalty that people are owed to you in the workplace. These are things that are grounded in really problematic concepts that are just built in.
Mita Mallick (26:20.098)
Yes.
Mita Mallick (26:28.065)
Yes.
Angela R Howard (26:34.83)
They're baked into the system. So I think your point about control is an important one and it's complex.
Mita Mallick (26:43.213)
It is complex. And I think there's a song that right now is my daughter's favorite. It's the Taylor Swift song called Antihero. And there's a line in it that says, it's me. I'm the problem, it's me. And I talk about, if you look at my early career, I was job hopping every year and a half or so. And part of it was because I just didn't feel like I could find a place that fit me.
Angela R Howard (26:50.164)
Ah, yes.
Mita Mallick (27:08.021)
And I thought I was the problem, right? It's me, I'm the problem. And I'm like, wow, no, it's these systems and structures that weren't built for people who look like me. They weren't designed for people who look like me. Even when I go back to pay inequities, my father, rest in peace, who raised us and taught us, I remember one of his famous sayings, like keep your head down, work hard, stay out of trouble, and you'll be recognized. And that's not how it works in corporate America. And I was raised to trust the system.
Angela R Howard (27:35.832)
Hmm.
Mita Mallick (27:38.273)
And there was this piece of growing up as the daughter of immigrant parents that my parents sacrificed everything to come to this country. And so I should be grateful for what I have. And something I shared on LinkedIn recently was yet another incident of gaslighting when it comes to pay. It was early in my career and I was offered a brand manager role I was very excited for, I had interviewed for it and desperately wanted the job. And when I tried to negotiate, the recruiter said, this is more than a fair offer. I can't believe you're negotiating.
Angela R Howard (27:38.665)
Mm-hmm.
Mita Mallick (28:09.537)
And so given the power dynamics there and just being more junior in my career, I was like, oh, okay, and I took the job. And then I found out a few months into the role, that the white man who I become friends with, who has less marketing experience than me is making 10% more. And so this is how these things show up. But I also think, Angela, I talk about this pretty openly. Like I'm also at odds with the system that was set up that wasn't built for me, but culturally, how I show up and the things that I've had to undo as well from a cultural perspective.
Angela R Howard (28:09.675)
Mm.
Angela R Howard (28:33.994)
Mm-hmm.
Mita Mallick (28:37.95)
or things that I'm still unlearning.
Angela R Howard (28:40.374)
Yes, yes, unlearning is, I can relate to that because I had to do it in corporate and now as an entrepreneur, it's a whole other conversation about exclusivity and whole other worlds. So I appreciate you saying that because that resonates with me. So last question, because this is something that's been on my mind and I figure I might as well have another brain on this because you did, yes, because you did mention earlier,
Mita Mallick (28:48.601)
Yes. Yes.
Mita Mallick (29:05.27)
Okay, let's do it.
Angela R Howard (29:09.51)
We talked about inclusion and kind of this idea of consensus. So I've started to say that inclusion is not necessarily consensus. Everybody needs to be in the room, but we need to be thoughtful to ensure that the right voices are amplified. So I would love to get your perspective on that and test it, tear it apart. Let me know if I'm kind of on the right track with that.
Mita Mallick (29:34.233)
Can you repeat your thoughts? Inclusion, is heavy. I might need another cup of coffee, Angela.
Angela R Howard (29:38.962)
I know, some more caffeine, yeah. Inclusion is not necessarily consensus.
Mita Mallick (29:44.297)
I would agree with that. I think one of the biggest and most difficult things leaders have to do is listen to perspectives they don't agree with—the hardest job of a leader. I was having a conversation with someone yesterday. We can still disagree as long as we respect each other. Because when you're, what's the difference between debating and conflict? Hopefully debating doesn't arise to conflict. Like,
If you are trying to do better, be better as an organization, you're trying to exceed your quarterly goals, you're trying to beat your competition, you're trying to launch the most fantastic, latest innovation, you're only going to get to a better place when those views and opinions collide and clash and gets you to a better result. But
Angela R Howard (30:33.485)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Mita Mallick (30:40.565)
it doesn't always mean that we're always going to agree with each other. And I think, I believe, we've lost our ability as a country to disagree with each other. And whether that's in our workplaces, whether that's in our families, in our kitchen room tables, especially with another presidential election coming up next year, we've lost the ability to disagree. We've lost the ability.
Angela R Howard (30:57.111)
Mm-hmm.
Mita Mallick (31:02.169)
to listen to a perspective that we might not agree with. That's not our own. I mean, I say this on social media every day. I scroll by stuff, and I'm like, oh, not my cup of tea. That's cool. But I don't need to put some hateful comment on Angela's post. We disagree. That's cool. I'm going to scroll on by. Or people show up in my audio rooms. They show up on my feed. And I say, thanks for your perspective. I learned something new. I don't necessarily agree with it, but that's OK. That's cool. You presented it in a very kind way. And so I appreciate it.
I learned something new that my perspective might evolve because of this.
Angela R Howard (31:37.042)
Yeah. Well, Mita, I am so grateful for you and your perspective, and thank you for bouncing a few ideas around that concept that I was talking about, because I do think it is a hold-up for business leaders where they're like, oh, well, I have to include everybody. And that means it's going to we're going to have a slow process and I can't get to a decision. And it's not the case. I don't know if that's a myth in your book, but if we read it, if you write another book, we're going to add that one because yes.
Mita Mallick (31:41.903)
Thank you so much.
Mita Mallick (32:04.293)
That's gonna be 14. No, but you know what? It's like, that is, you know, leading is a privilege and it's an honor to lead. And so that comes with part of being a leader. It's not easy. It's not easy. And it's a privilege and an honor to lead.
Angela R Howard (32:12.322)
Yes.
Angela R Howard (32:23.53)
Yes, and it's been a privilege and an honor, Meeta, to be with you today. Thank you so much for your time. And where can people find you or purchase your book?
Mita Mallick (32:26.829)
Thank you, Angela.
Mita Mallick (32:33.441)
Yes, so find me on LinkedIn and please go check out the book. It's available for pre-order on Amazon. Re-Imagine Inclusion, Debunking 13 Miss, to Transform Your Workplace. I know you're going to love it.
Angela R Howard (32:45.13)
Amazing. We're gonna put all that in the show notes people can just click and go and purchase. Thank you so much, Mita
Mita Mallick (32:47.502)
Thank you.
Thank you, Angela.
