Creating More Sustainable and Resilient Organizations with Gethin Nadin
Angela R Howard (00:01.754)
All right, Gethan, it's great to be with you this morning, your afternoon. Thanks for being on the podcast.
Gethin Nadin (00:08.473)
Thank you for having me on.
Angela R Howard (00:10.638)
And Gethan, you and I had a great chat right before our conversation here. And I think just in like the two minutes that we were talking, we already found all these beautiful synergies, I think, with our work, but also philosophically around this connection between work and social impact. So I'm excited to talk to you specifically about this idea of well-being, connecting it to productivity, and making sure productivity is not a dirty word.
And we're thinking about it differently as we're kind of stepping into this, I don't know, this revolution, this new evolution of work. So, Gethan, tell us who you are, what you do, and the impact you're looking to make on the world.
Gethin Nadin (00:53.017)
Thank you. Yes, I'm excited about this conversation. So, Gethin Aiden, I'm the Chief Innovation Officer at an employee experience technology business called Benefx. I've been there almost since the start as one of the founding team. That was 12 years ago now. I'm also an award-winning psychologist. I've written two books on the employee experience and employee wellbeing. Both were self-published, but both went on to the Amazon bestseller list in various countries. So, they've done well.
I write a lot about HR issues, I write a lot about the employee experience and employee well-being, and work a lot with employers all around the globe. So I've been lucky enough to work with some really big brands on their employee experience strategies.
Angela R Howard (01:35.85)
Amazing, amazing. Well, let's just start with, I guess, some basic information, because I think our listeners may be coming from different places around their understanding of, first of all, why we're even talking about well-being at work. I think there's a spectrum of people who perhaps really understand the direct impact and some who are still exploring. So what would you say the state of this conversation is? What are some of the keys?
connection points to things like performance and productivity.
Gethin Nadin (02:07.853)
So I think when we look at well-being at work, I think one of the reasons why it's advanced so much over the last couple of years, the pandemic had a big impact. I think employers started to worry about their people. I think that advanced interest in the adoption of workplace well-being is probably by 10 years or more. And I think whilst all that happened, what you started to see was this...
vast and kind of compelling body of evidence that started to grow that was saying, you know If you put your people at the center of your organization if you take care of their needs if you look after their well-being Your organization will be better off. So in various countries We now have all these different metrics that say, you know those organizations that commit to employee well-being Produced 2.5 times the profit of those that don't and the bigger shareholder returns higher productivity
And so it's pretty much given now in most circumstances that actually the more you take care of people, the more they develop for you, the more creative they are, the more innovative they are. And in some places, some parts of the businesses that are noticeable. So the, I mean, the idea that if you're stressed and worried about something, you're not gonna deliver this happy, smiley customer service, that kind of stuff's pretty obvious.
But we can even start to link wellbeing to high performance. And so the wellbeing demands of high performers in an organization is an interesting space that nobody's talking about actually, you know, how much wellbeing support those people need and high performance, you know, in most organizations, your kind of top 5% of people will produce about 25% of your output. So really important that those people are looked after, you know, this is not just
Just for everyone else, there's the high-performance piece to it. And I just, I think that's quite fascinating at the moment, that piece. It feels like this next evolution of convincing the organization that wellbeing is something you should be looking at.
Angela R Howard (04:02.554)
Yeah, and I think we've kind of seen this certain evolution of the conversation happening where it started with, you know, conversations around benefits and perks and things like that. You know, so we started thinking about the benefit package that we were producing and then that kind of turned into more holistic well-being where we're talking about financial and career and this like, you know, I see a lot of images of like the pie, right? And all the different parts of the well-being.
I guess, and now I think at least what I'm noticing from my vantage point is, oh, and then you have like, you know, the yoga, the yoga and the bringing classes to the workplace. And what I tend to tell clients when we're talking about wellness is that it's not always about adding on. Sometimes it's about evaluating, and reevaluating the behaviors and the systems and the processes within your organization.
and not doing things sometimes or dismantling things. And so what do you think we're getting wrong in the wellness space when it comes to the workplace?
Gethin Nadin (05:12.313)
I mean, I think my experiences seem to be the same as yours. You know, I run up to my second book, I ran probably 150 to 200 different wellbeing workshops with employers all around the world. And one of the common themes was when I asked somebody their approach to employee wellbeing, what I got back was a list of things that person, that company had bought. And we were like, and I have a lot of sympathy with it because it's easier to go out and buy stuff than it is to change the structure of your organization to better serve employee wellbeing. So I get it.
Angela R Howard (05:32.398)
rights.
Gethin Nadin (05:42.145)
And I think during the pandemic, when people panicked, they rushed around, they tried to find the fire extinguisher, they were reading the instructions. The quickest thing to do sometimes was to just go out and buy something. And I do see most employers now in this period of reflection as the pandemic has eased, that people are now thinking, did those things I bought, I rushed to buy to solve a problem then, are they have any long-term worth and long-term value? So there's that piece. And so I think.
Angela R Howard (05:51.18)
Mm.
Gethin Nadin (06:10.817)
you know, people like myself and it sounds like you as well are trying to drive people away from this idea that, you know, this wellbeing is not, it shouldn't be commodified in the way that it is. It shouldn't just be about kind of buying stuff. Um, I think we're also starting to see some worrying research come out about the effectiveness of some of the most common ways that people try and support employee wellbeing. So if you look at all the various app stores around the world, there's somewhere in the reach of 900,000 different wellbeing apps you can download. Um,
Angela R Howard (06:39.499)
Wow.
Gethin Nadin (06:40.929)
Loads of organizations and loads of independent researchers found that generally about less than 14% of those, that's one in four, can prove any evidence of their effectiveness. And there are some really big studies recently that just look more generally at all these major interventions and common interventions for workplace well-being to show that quite a lot of them don't materially move the dial on employee well-being at all. And then at the same time, you've got all these other measures coming out, like you mentioned before, which is, you know,
belonging and trust and communications. And so it's a combination of so many different things that will improve wellbeing in the workplace. And you, I think we employees need to think about it in terms of kind of aggregation or marginal gains. You're twisting a few knobs and you're flipping a few switches and it's the collective impact of those things that will start to move the dial. I think.
Angela R Howard (07:30.79)
Yeah, and I think there is certainly, I mean, our conversation thus far over the last few minutes here, we've been talking about, you know, the idea of doing well, right? I think the fact that you know, you mentioned the connection to productivity, to performance. I think your average business leader, like, you know, their ears might perk up and say, oh, I can get better outcomes and results and more innovation and creativity. That's wonderful. But I do think there is this doing good.
part of the conversation, which we talked about, right? Which is what is the impact of having a workplace that is toxic versus creating an environment, a space where people can thrive? What are your thoughts on that? And then what is the employer's responsibility? Where does it start and where does it end?
Gethin Nadin (08:21.289)
Yeah, this is a really interesting discussion, I think, because it's not being had as commonly as I'd like it to be. I mean, I think if you look at the impact that employers are having and have had during the pandemic, I mean, the pandemic is probably a really good case study in this. We saw employers send their people home because they felt that was a safe thing to do, in many cases, before the government decided to do those things.
And so people got, you know, employers got a kind of handle on the situation. I thought, you know what I think the safest thing to do for my people is to get them to work from home. And then a week or so later, that state, that country, that city, whatever it might be, seems to lock down, um, you know, right across the U.S. S you have healthcare tied to the workplace. We're starting to see that far more commonly now across Europe. Uh, and I think it's generally this kind of.
this murmuring of this idea that employers are supporting people's lives more than those traditional methods used to like the state. So you've got employers who are offering people retirement options and long-term savings, you've got employers who are offering health care and all this kind of stuff. And I think in many cases, you know, a really good employee experience goes far beyond the reach of the four walls of the organization.
I mean, some really interesting things I found in my latest book that we could kind of pick out, which I think were quite fascinating. There's some research in Australia that if you have a neighborhood of people and you improve the employee experience of all those different people in a neighborhood, the whole neighborhood starts to get better. They started to help each other out more. They practiced more altruism. They spoke to each other more. So you started to see this community develop just because people were having a better experience at work.
Angela R Howard (09:42.007)
Mm-hmm.
Gethin Nadin (10:04.821)
We know there's a direct correlation between life satisfaction and work satisfaction. So the happier somebody is at work, the happier they are at home. There's some really interesting research about fathers having better relationships with their children, the more recognition they get for the effort they put in at home. And I've been able to link a few studies up to kind of conclude that in some extreme examples, you're actually, by delivering a great employee experience and getting somebody to feel valued and included and fulfilled at work.
you can break generations' worth of poor mental health by disrupting that chain of people starting to live more fulfilling lives. And I think that's powerful. And there are big companies around the world like Unilever, who are really good examples of the kind of started this stuff 20, 30 years ago and Patagonia is another really good example. Um, but they're starting to improve the communities of the, of the countries and places and towns that they operate in. Um,
And I think that's amazing, right? I think, you know, again, you can start to see that, you know, employers are having more of an impact than the states and local government is in many countries and towns and cities.
Angela R Howard (11:14.79)
Wow, those are some, I mean, I'm not surprised because I've been, we've been talking about this for a while. I think it's not talked about enough, but you know, the term that I usually use, you know, when we're talking about this is that you know, employers have a responsibility to send happier, healthier humans back to their communities and in society, right? Because that does have a ripple effect. And so some of the things that you just mentioned, first of all, validate some of the
Angela R Howard (11:44.786)
so powerful to hear. It's so powerful to hear. And so what do you think, what do you think the barrier or the mental block is for leaders around this work today?
Gethin Nadin (12:00.089)
So I think we are, as much as it feels like we're advancing, sometimes it feels like it's two steps forward and one step back. I mean, you only have to look at the rhetoric coming out from people like Elon Musk, who is very much kind of, you know, people aren't going to work unless they're together in the workplace. I don't see collaboration unless I see people together. You know, there are a few of these loud voices appearing, which is like you come to work, you get paid, you go home. End of relationship.
And for every company that seems to be doing the right thing, there does seem to be some of those people who think this is kind of liberal, left-wing nonsense, you know, but as we've mentioned, there's heavy evidence behind all of this stuff. So I think that's a barrier. I think there's a risk there that we go back to the old ways, especially where those businesses are trying to prioritize profit over people, which is fine. Most businesses do that. But
People like you and I are in the middle of this thing. Well, those two things are not mutually exclusive. You don't have to prioritize one over the other. Prioritizing one will develop the other rather than just you prioritizing profit and forgetting people, you just get profit. If you prioritize people, the profit will follow and you've satisfied both of those things. And I think you have a lot of leaders who are struggling with the really quick pace of change, I think.
most managers got their jobs because of tenure or technical ability, not because they listened to podcasts like this, or they read the right books, or they're up to date with the research, or they know how to coach and lead and mentor people. And so, you know, you've seen lots of middle management struggle with this new way of working where lots of people are now working out of sight or have different working patterns and work in different ways. And
you see again some of this rhetoric rising, which is, well, I succeeded and I didn't get the four-day work and week I succeeded and I didn't get to work from home. And so it's um, yeah, I think some of those generational shifts and it's the same rhetoric you hear from anything as I mean, it's fascinating when you when we had like different currency entered the UK, some of the basic if you take anything where something changed in a society where that's
Angela R Howard (13:49.295)
Wait.
Angela R Howard (13:59.327)
Mm.
Gethin Nadin (14:10.805)
you know, the mechanical loom came in in the 1800s, or we started replacing horses with cars, it's the same rhetoric that comes out. And it's people just adapting to that change and pushing back against it. Um, and, and I think also, um, you know, we are, if you take those examples of the wellbeing apps that we talked about, you know, that wellbeing economy is now worth something like $60 billion a year. Um, that's going up and up and up the number of self-reported
poor mental health, people are struggling with burnout, all that kind of stuff, that's going up and up and up. Now what should be happening is as the support became more available and went up, the problem should be going down and that's not happening. So I think the patience people have to see change is it might risk this not working because this kind of stuff takes time and if people aren't seeing quick changes in their organization, they're investing a lot in wellbeing and they're not seeing that return quickly.
that risks those organizations just pulling the plug on those things because the return wasn't seen quickly enough. But I think, and I think this, I'm sure you've got some views on this as well, because I think this ties to some of the other things we were going to talk about, but the pressures from other stakeholders, other than the employee, who by the way, at the moment now is the most important, 40% of people globally say the employee is now the most important stakeholder in a business. But if you look at those other stakeholders, the ones that people are saying are not as important.
Angela R Howard (15:28.1)
Mm-hmm.
Gethin Nadin (15:36.917)
nevertheless still important. Shareholders, something like 94% of the top 600 investors in the US said how you treat your employees is now a metric they want to see before they will invest in you. So the money is following this. Investors realize that if you've got a business that doesn't take care of its people, you will not generate profit. So why would I invest in you? And in the Elon Musk example, we've seen that with Tesla recently, where a hundred different shareholders
have written to the board to say, look, you've got to change this culture because this kind of culture does not generate profits. And so we, you know, you need to make some changes at the top. And then you're also seeing that pressure from consumers. And again, we saw this a lot in the US in particular, where you started to see that actually, these ESG issues were creeping into the workplace. So the idea is that kind of the S of environmental, social, and government, the other kind of social side.
was, you know, are we paying people sick pay? So if we're sending people to self-isolate because of the virus, are we paying them to do that? If we're not, and they can't afford to not work, they're gonna come to work and that becomes a public health risk. So consumers were saying, do you know what? You've got to look after your people during this pandemic, otherwise, I'm not gonna come back and buy from you. And so we saw loads of US States then start to mandate sick pay for the first time. And so those two influences from the people with the money, the investors and the customers.
Angela R Howard (16:39.189)
Mm.
Gethin Nadin (17:02.001)
is starting to change as well. And I think where you cross over that ESG with wellbeing, and there is a very clear link between the two, you start to see, maybe it's the ESG angle that will start to get some of this stuff through rather than the, it's the right thing to do, because if that's where the money is, and ultimately, I guess, as long as change happens, I'm not entirely sure if I care how we get there, as long as the positive change happens, but.
Angela R Howard (17:20.538)
Mm.
Gethin Nadin (17:28.53)
I know some of the views you've got on ESG, this kind of links hopefully to what you've been thinking as well.
Angela R Howard (17:34.494)
Yeah, absolutely. And that's, you know, this podcast is called Social Responsibility at Work, which I think connects right into the ESG conversation. And yes, I think that we are moving towards a, and I don't, I was having this conversation with another colleague around, is it a revolution or an evolution? Right? Is this going to happen quickly because we have this, you know, a new generation coming who is especially passionate about it?
climate, people, planets, or is it going to be more of an evolution? I tend to lean towards, I think we're kind of in a revolution right now, I think it's happening and we have this push and pull from a dying paradigm while a new paradigm is being birthed at the same time. And I think that's a fascinating place to be, which makes our work exciting.
Gethin Nadin (18:26.777)
That's it.
Angela R Howard (18:32.574)
And then the other piece that you mentioned is change is kind of a human condition, how we move through it. And so as psychologists, I think we probably have similar perspectives on change and that it is a mix of psychology, anthropology, sociology, all these disciplines coming together. So how do we, I guess my last question, because we could talk about this for decades, I'm sure, but.
My last question is how do we change differently so that we can see some of these things that we know are good for people and profit stick and kind of get to that, for like a better word, that revolution stage versus that long-term evolution stage.
Gethin Nadin (19:19.613)
So I think something we probably haven't done and this is something I encounter every week with HR leaders at companies all around the world is there are people in the business in any organization that understand some of these things because they read the research papers, they read some of the HR news, they're kind of in it and they're engaged in it, they view their jobs as vocations and so keeping up to date with some of this stuff is important.
But I will, I will sometimes do conference talks where people come up to me afterward and say, I had no idea this is a thing and it's got me thinking. And it always blows my mind. Cause sometimes I'll be talking about something I read or learned five years ago. And so, um, uh, it then gets me to think about, you know, who else in the business is keeping up to date with this stuff? You know, we talk, I talked about line managers, an example earlier on, you know, do we sit down with line managers and share with them the metrics that say, do you know what well-being isn't this fluffy thing?
the better you take care of the well-being of your team, the better your team performs, the better your team performs, the better you perform, the better manager you become. And I think if we were to sit down at team level and say, look, this is heavy research, there's this research from millions of employees, from hundreds, if not thousands of different companies around the world that says, if you do it this way and you get it right, you get a better-performing team. I don't think we've shown what's in it for them. And I think...
Angela R Howard (20:43.329)
Mm.
Gethin Nadin (20:43.361)
We have to do that more because this well-being concept has been quite fluffy for so long. We have to link that to performance. We have to link it to productivity. We have to show managers that the better you take care of your people, the more you check in on them, the more you do all the right things, the better the performance of your team. Then I think that starts to move the dial a bit because, in a traditional business sense, it gives you an ROI. The ROI of well-being, I think has been.
elusive in the fact that many big reports from many big organizations and many big kinds of consultancy firms prove what I said at the start. You know, if you've got a business that's centered on well-being, you'll get profit, you'll get customer loyalty, you'll get all these success metrics will kind of fall into place. What enough people aren't doing is telling you exactly how you get from A to B.
So I know wellbeing is important to my business and I know I'll need it to succeed and my investors my customers and my employees will all say they want me to do it. But how do I do that? Because if I go to a conference I get back to that buying stuff. So they need more people like you and hopefully myself where we're educating them on what wellbeing at work is and actually how do you kind of find those gaps. And so I think...
Angela R Howard (21:43.232)
Mm.
Angela R Howard (21:48.553)
Mm-hmm.
Gethin Nadin (21:56.193)
That's probably what we all need to do show people what the action they need to take is. And for many people not showcase your Apples and your Linkedins and your Netflix and whoever, you know, big businesses with endless resources, but the person down the street that employs 10 or 20 people, because that's where that's where most people work. Most people work for that kind of smaller business. They don't work for a big global enterprise.
Angela R Howard (22:21.594)
Yeah, I think the how is the hardest part here. And it also takes time. What I've noticed is, because we have a, most of our clients are 12 to 18 months plus. So we're working with long-term partnerships. We have a methodology around culture change. And honestly, one of the hard sells in the beginning, the first one is, why so long?
you know, I was able to purchase Headspace, you know, and I feel like I'm doing well-being. Why does this take 12 to 18 months? And then the second thing is the involvement and the commitment. So that's the sustainability element of, I'm a consultant, my team is guides. We're gonna help facilitate this for you, but we need to coach you and give you the tools so you can do it even when we're gone. So our entire process is, we're teaching you.
We're not doing it, we're teaching you. And that is sometimes a hard sell because it's like, no, you're a consultant. Do it for me. And in reality, this needs to live in the fabric of the organization. We can't do that unless leadership is on board unless we're role modeling these behaviors. So it can be a tough sell. I'm not going to lie, but I think more and more people are realizing that this takes intentional strategic focus, just like any like
Gethin Nadin (23:23.241)
Yeah. Yeah.
Angela R Howard (23:43.698)
operations team, marketing team, you know, any of those quote-unquote revenue generators would take. It takes time to build.
Gethin Nadin (23:51.913)
Yeah, the same kind of thing that I do with our customers is, you know, the book is called the work in progress. And to go with that, I created a tool called the Wellbeing Progress Index. None of it, you know, the book is sold at cost price. They don't make any money from the book. The tool is available for free for anyone who wants to use it. And that's taking all the evidence from the book and creating a kind of almost a checklist of these are the things the evidence says you need to be doing from the policies you should be writing and what they should include.
to the way you should be communicating, the way you should be recruiting and training managers, the benefits you should offer, how you should be offering recognition, what well-being support, and all these different kinds of micro experiences that all collectively add up to a great wellbeing experience at work. And my job is to present these and say, well, these are the things I think you should do. The order in which you knock those off is completely up to you. If you want the low-hanging fruit first and save the bigger stuff for your next big change project.
But it is a three to five-year commitment. It is a lot to fix in most organizations. If you were to build a business from the ground up today, you would not build it in the same way that most businesses currently exist. So you are having to knock a structure down and rebuild it, but what we're advising and hopefully yours is the same as well, but you know, you're not going to knock the building down and build it. You kind of, you kind of take it, tackle it floor by floor. You're almost refurbishing a room at a time.
Angela R Howard (25:15.531)
Yes.
Gethin Nadin (25:16.969)
and then you'll end up with this brand new building in that analogy. But we can't do the work. Any consultant that would tell you to do the work, I think you should be looking out through the side of your eyes and a bit suspiciously because that change has to come from within. Because even if you do create this great culture, it's not sustainable unless the right things are in place to continue them.
Angela R Howard (25:21.591)
Hmm.
Angela R Howard (25:40.042)
Absolutely, and I think everyone who's listening, I think can benefit from your work, and your book, the fact that you're including tools for people to take this internally and implement is brilliant. So tell us more about where to find you, where to find the book, and where should people go, and we'll make sure to also include this in the show notes for people to access.
Gethin Nadin (26:06.989)
Okay, thank you. So I'm very active on LinkedIn, so people can find me on LinkedIn. As I come across these random bits of research, I kind of share that. I've also got a LinkedIn newsletter where, as I find things I would have included in the book if I was still writing it, I kind of share those afterward as well. So I can almost continue reading the book as that would have evolved. The book's available on Amazon right around the world. And my first book,
It's called a world of good lessons around the world and improving the experience. And so that was in my experience book that focused on wellbeing and then one that was built on wellbeing. And that's not just my research, but the results of those 150 to 200 wellbeing consultancy sessions I've had with large companies all around the world. And then to balance it, the books also got views of wellbeing leads working internally at big organisations around the world. So hopefully some of their views can also challenge and complement mine as well. But
I'm driven by the fact that you know, I believe that good work can have a big impact on people. Good work can have a big impact on society. I think some of the biggest changes in society that we'll see over the next 20 years, the workplace will have a hand in changing some of those. And I think for people like me, that's a vocation. That means, you know, we can move the dial on the change we want to see. I mean, diversity inclusion is a great example. You're seeing employers
offering a haven for women who need to go through an abortion in the US where the state is not allowing but the employers are saying, well you work for us and if that's what you need I'm going to facilitate that. And it doesn't matter that you can't get married to the same sex in your state or your country if you work for us I'm still going to include you and I'm still going to recognize the fact that you're with somebody of the same sex. And so we're seeing evidence of this emerging all the time and I think an exciting new world exists for us if more employers...
Angela R Howard (27:35.455)
Hmm.
Gethin Nadin (27:56.301)
kind of get hold of that and realize the part they play in society.
Angela R Howard (28:00.674)
Yeah, so, Gethan, it was so amazing chatting. You and I, I think, have optimistic views on how this work intersects. And that's why we do the work we do, I think because we feel like there is this change upon us. And I just really appreciate your body of work, your expertise, and bringing your brilliance to this space. And I'm sure we'll...
We'll have you back on the podcast at some point once the new book, another book comes out. Thank you so much for your time.
Gethin Nadin (28:31.969)
Thank you for having me and great work with the podcast as well. I think this is proving a lot of the stuff that I've talked about today.
Angela R Howard (28:38.198)
Thank you so much, appreciate you.
