2023 Employee Experience Trends with Qualtrics
angela_r_howard (00:02.423)
All right, Haley and Frank, welcome to the podcast. It's good to have you on. This is the third time you are on my podcast and I am just so grateful for it because we've now started an annual tradition. And I'll let Haley and Frank provide introductions, but they're both coming from Qualtrics, Human Experience Platform, and we bring.
Haley and Frank every year to talk about upcoming employee experience and human experience trends going into the next year. And so I'm just gonna allow you both to provide an introduction, even though you're just, you know, you're friends of the audience because you've been on the podcast a few times, but for the new listeners who have not had a chance to get to know you, let us know who you are, what you do, and the impact you're looking to make on the world. Frank, we'll start with you and then we'll bounce to Haley.
Frank (00:55.068)
Yeah, thanks, Angela. Yeah, I feel like we're veterans now, you know, three years of doing this. I can't believe it. But thank you for having us back on. Always a great topic to talk about. And, you know, for your listeners, you know, I'm Frank Luturza. I'm an account executive here at Qualtrics on their employee experience team. I'm going on almost three years. So March of 16 was my three anniversary. I say that because I started right when the pandemic hit. I mean, we literally as an organization Qualtrics decided to move remote.
angela_r_howard (00:58.043)
Yeah!
angela_r_howard (01:20.759)
Mm.
frank (01:25.164)
And so there's just been so many experiences just with that and having been a remote first employee being onboarded remotely. And so it's been a really fun ride, I should say, and a very interesting ride as well. And here at Qualtrics in my role, I work with HR and people leaders to help them understand how to utilize technology to collect, measure, and take action on employee feedback data at scale.
to help improve their overall employee experience and whatever KPIs they're looking to improve, which could be a lot over these past few years, but here at Qualtrics, we help them do it really easily at scale and with empathy. And my background is very similar. Actually, all three of us have a similar background in IO psychology. Angela, you and I went to Elmhurst University. And besides working here at Qualtrics, I'm also a board member with the Chicago chapter of SHRM. And the mark I'm looking to make, you know, I...
angela_r_howard (02:09.501)
Mm-hmm.
frank (02:20.856)
I've always had this background in IO for a while now, but it wasn't until probably coming to Qualtrics that I really realized the impact that it can have. And so the impact that I'm really looking for is just to truly help companies have good employee experiences. And I think these past three years has really shown just how important that is, not just to their employees, but also to the success of the organization, I would say. And companies just having a thoughtful
and being intentional, being thoughtful about the experiences that they're trying to create, I think can go a long way again to their overall success. And that's why I'm excited for this conversation because we don't know what's going to happen next as we think about employee experiences. And hopefully that never changes with me, but it'll be interesting how the environment and the world around us may impact how I feel about that. And hopefully it still heads in a positive trajectory I'm hoping for.
angela_r_howard (03:01.879)
Thanks for watching!
angela_r_howard (03:17.371)
Awesome, well it's great to have you on. And Haley, you wanna go next?
haley_kuschman (03:20.97)
Sure. Yeah. And this is becoming one of my favorite ways to kick off, I think, the start of the holiday season. So thanks again for having us on. It's just fun to talk about all of all of the trends. So for the audience, good to good to be here again. My name is Haley Cushman. I'm one of our employee experience solution strategists at Qualtrics. Like Frank said, we all have a background similar. I have a background as well in IO psychology.
angela_r_howard (03:26.22)
I love it.
frank (03:26.998)
Hahaha!
haley_kuschman (03:50.25)
I've been at Qualtrics about four and a half years, and I've had a couple of different roles, but right now I get to talk to customers kind of earlier on in our relationship and help design best in class experiences. I worked in HR before I came to Qualtrics in a few different capacities in OD, in employee listening and actually customer listening as well.
I spent some time kind of in compensation. I like to say I'm very thankful for our comp folks. I'm very thankful that people like to do that. That was not the best fit for me. So I've had kind of a varied HR experience, kind of gotten to do a little bit of a, around Robin with, with some different experiences. So yeah, I'm just excited to talk about trends and what's coming for next year. Like Frank said, it feels like.
angela_r_howard (04:26.743)
Hmm.
haley_kuschman (04:35.618)
Feels like a different, it feels like a different year next year. And even as we get into the trends report a little bit, we'll get into that. But the trends are even a little different in the way that we're formatting them this year and the themes that we're seeing come up. Um, which again, to me is exciting. I wouldn't expect to see the same thing next year. We've all been through life, um, and a lot over the last year. So I think it's going to be interesting to talk through.
angela_r_howard (04:54.295)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (05:00.631)
Yes, well, I am excited to hear the trends. And like you said, they are different. And I think it's because people, I mean, there are some general human experience pieces that I think continue to ring true and don't change. But I think we are seeing a shift, a transformative shift around the employer-employee relationship. So
Let's kick it off, Hailey. Tell us what kind of the overview, what you're seeing, what leaders, business owners, people who have their finger on the pulse of employee experience, what we should know going into 2023.
haley_kuschman (05:40.774)
Yeah. So a few trends and even a little background on the report, we do this every year as we're launching into a new calendar year. I love that we survey global, globally on this, we have close to 30,000 responses included, 27 countries represented and 28 industries. So it's a pretty good snapshot of what we're seeing across the globe. While, you know, we work for a tech company and Angela, I know you work in consulting, we get to represent a pretty broad range of industries here at that.
We're seeing some interesting trends across. So a few things to point out. We didn't see a ton of differences in some of our outcome measures. And when I say outcomes, what we look at are things like engagement, of course, but also intent to stay and inclusion. We also have introduced a newer item that I really love because it hits at, I think a question that I've heard a lot of our customers talk about. I think we've all read a Forbes or an HPR article about this, but we call it experience versus expectations.
And really what that gets to the heart of is asking people what their expectations are. And we've been talking about a shift in our new normal. I know we're all tired of hearing or saying that probably. But what that really means is that our expectations have changed. And often what I find is that we don't ask it as directly as we should. And so we have introduced an item that says that. It's really the item itself actually says how does your experience compare to what you expected it to be? And we give people the opportunity to respond to that.
angela_r_howard (06:50.652)
Yeah.
haley_kuschman (07:09.122)
We saw the biggest shift in that and actually did see an increase in the score on that over the last year. However, where we do see, I say the biggest difference is actually in the trends themselves. We've seen maybe some themes throughout the last few years, but this is a new world. And I'll just go through the top four quickly and we can dive in. Kind of first and foremost is there's a newer priority list for employees. So employees are interested in the success of the company as a top driver.
going forward right now. Second, reclaiming boundaries. That's no surprise. I think, again, quiet quitting has gained a rise in popularity, at least as a term. We can talk about that for sure and what that really means. I know, Angela, you have some thoughts on that too. But that's our second trend. Along with that, which, again, no surprise, is feeling burnout. That is one of our third trends that we're seeing, just a continued increase in burnout levels.
angela_r_howard (07:50.274)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (07:55.812)
Yes.
haley_kuschman (08:06.994)
And fourth is something that I love that actually I think goes really well with the title of your podcast, Angela is really being connected to the purpose and growth of a company and that matters to employees. And then it needs to be kind of a part of somebody's value system. So that's what we're looking at as our, as our top four. What are your thoughts on that? When you read those, when you read through those, what do y'all think? Is that surprising?
angela_r_howard (08:15.829)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (08:30.967)
Yeah, I mean, I'll respond and Frank, I want to hear from you because I know you're kind of well, you're both in this day in and day out like we all are, I think, with working with organizations on how to operationalize these things. But I definitely am not surprised around this expectation experience topic.
I think more and more we're seeing employees holding employers accountable to what they say versus what they do. So kind of like the, when you join an organization, you were sold the bill of goods, but then you come in and it's completely different. So where is that say do gap happening? Is there one? If there is, how do you reduce it? But I think...
employees are really holding employers accountable to that and saying like, hey, I came in thinking XYZ and that's not happening. So how do we reset and renegotiate? But I don't know Frank, what do you what do you think?
frank (09:27.04)
Thank you.
frank (09:37.448)
Yeah, you know, just hearing you say that and Haley just kind of chime in about the expectations versus experiences, you're right. And I think as we head into 2023, if we look back at these last two to almost three years, I mean, it feels like something's always been changing. Like nothing has been, you know, really the static. And so as we think about 2023, we hear the term a lot, you know, operating in uncertainty. Like, we don't know what's going to come next. We hear about recession. We say we're in a recession. No, we're not in a recession.
We see some of the larger banks getting ready to lay off a lot of people. We see challenges in the tech market right now. And so I don't know what to expect in 2023, to be honest with you. It might be bumpy. It might not be bumpy. But I think employees are going to want security. They're going to want financial security. And I think those are going to be big things that they're going to be looking for. And I think they want to be able to realize that they can.
not only have those traditional type things of growth and development, right? Those are always those key drivers that we see year after year after year, but now they want to ensure that they are paid right, you know, that they have opportunities for that for that advancement and that they have that security. And that's the kind of the themes that I'm seeing coming out of this overall because but then again with the quote unquote uncertain times, like what does that mean? And we don't quite know yet.
haley_kuschman (10:59.966)
Yeah. Well, and I love that because I think like with that first trend, like you said, uncertainty when there is a just guaranteed uncertainty, which seems to be, maybe that's the theme over the last two years, but, um, people do look for security in that that's a pretty typical reaction. And we do see that as our top trend is people are looking for that job security and financial certainty, not only for the company, but actually for themselves as well.
that we saw pay and benefits is actually one of the top drivers of intent to stay for the first time in quite a while. This is an item that I've actually recommended to customers to take out of their engagement surveys and to say, don't dedicate all of you, all of this real estate to pay and benefits. It's often not a top driver, but something that I love is one, um, let's normalize changing our minds. Um, but.
frank (11:36.972)
That's what I was going to say.
angela_r_howard (11:37.431)
I'm going to go ahead and close the video.
angela_r_howard (11:49.712)
Mm-hmm.
haley_kuschman (11:51.966)
Also, the fact that this really shows the need to stay on top of measurement and listening, because this is something that has changed and is new over the past few years. And we see that things like employees are 26% more likely to stay with their employer, with their expectations being met at work, and if they're being paid fairly, if they're satisfied with their pay and benefits. And this has dropped.
we see a pretty big percentage drop in the satisfaction around pan benefits over the last few years. So this is something that has, I think, kind of, it's been surprising to me in that it is now one of those top drivers that we haven't seen for quite a few years. Not that it hasn't been important, it's just been not a top driver. And so that really shows the importance of needing to reevaluate what that really means.
angela_r_howard (12:40.695)
Yeah, and I think something that comes to mind, like the string that's threading through all this for me is this idea of transparency, right? So I think I almost, and tell me if my hypothesis could be wrong here because you all have seen the results, but pay might actually be a means to an end around fairness and around openness.
and knowing that we're not exploiting people. But then, because I think there is this big movement about a realization that, wow, I've really have been maybe not treated completely fairly, or there's not equity and pay.
frank (13:08.139)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (13:19.979)
There's no transparency. People are demanding it now. So I wonder if pay is more of a means to an end around fairness. And it's a mean and reducing the say do gap around expectations is also a fairness question because it's like, you said this when I joined and now you're doing something completely different. That doesn't seem fair because I entered this contract of sorts with you as an employer, that social contract, and it's not being upheld.
frank (13:42.092)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (13:46.443)
So I'm wondering if it's truly a driver or if it's more of a means to end around fairness.
haley_kuschman (13:53.698)
That's an interesting proxy there. And I think you're right, because one of the things that we do see within pay and benefits, to your point, is often the data will show us there are different groups have different experiences with satisfaction here. And what this really means is we're operating within a system that might not be designed for us. Maybe that was designed with a certain type of person in mind and isn't really considering now what our employee populations look like. And that's something actually.
frank (14:07.681)
Thank you.
angela_r_howard (14:13.751)
Hmm.
haley_kuschman (14:22.166)
Um, we had a customer who found that is they decided to do some research and they thought that the most important benefits for their employees were going to be financial benefits. Um, so it's the financial services firm. So that wasn't an unfair guess. That's a pretty good hypothesis to go into it. However, what they found from their actual feedback from their employees were that family benefits were most important, which to me signals one, their employee population is changing. Um, but they were also able to invest in a way that was better for them.
angela_r_howard (14:34.566)
Yeah.
haley_kuschman (14:52.691)
Total rewards is one of the top expenses of a company, and if you invest those poorly, that's a huge miss on retention. So there's no reason we shouldn't be asking our employees for what they want so that we can make a better investment as a company. And I love that because we can't go into this with preconceived notions. It might actually be different than what we thought.
angela_r_howard (15:14.003)
Yeah, and to be fair, Haley, I mean, to your point about why you didn't ask that question, or you recommended not asking that question before, is because there is this perception of, you know, nobody feels like they're paid what they shouldn't. You always deserve more, right? But I think, again, that goes into fairness and equity and how are we thinking about the options and choices that people have and does it actually fit into what their needs are to be successful? So, yeah, so interesting.
haley_kuschman (15:26.623)
Mm-hmm.
frank (15:40.812)
And it also ties into your transparency too, Angela. You know, and I think back to customers that I'm working with just on their DEI program, right? And how many companies today were never really collecting feedback specifically around DE and I plus B, right? Now we're seeing them incorporate that into their employee listening programs. They're incorporating that around onboarding. Like, do you feel like you belong at XYZ company? Like, imagine getting that question.
angela_r_howard (15:43.307)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (15:56.113)
Mm-hmm.
frank (16:06.208)
one week into your job or 30 days into your job. It usually never happened. You're never asked that question. But then it goes back to, again, the transparency around companies trying to bridge that gender pay gap, for example, and how are they being transparent. I think Qualtrics actually has finally, I think last year we announced to Haley, I think in our last DEI report that we actually have bridged that gap, at least on gender. And now I'm sure our reporting will go deeper in the future.
you know, iterations of this report maybe for, you know, past gender and looking at other groups, et cetera. But yeah, I love that, Angela. I love that the transparency is really key there as well. But going back to Haley, you gotta ask. I think that's the biggest thing is nobody ever asked about benefits and what's important to employees. They always just assume this is what they want. But then they're spending all this money on benefits that possibly your employees don't even want or need, you know? And that's why I love that example Haley mentioned.
angela_r_howard (16:55.063)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (17:00.95)
Mm-hmm.
frank (17:04.181)
because now they're actually rerouting that to things that their employees really want and need and That's a good. It's a good happy medium to be in
angela_r_howard (17:13.995)
Awesome, awesome. And kind of pivoting to, I think, and I'm a guy I like to bucket things together just in my own brain, but the boundaries and the burnout, I feel like are connected. So tell us a little bit more, and Frank, maybe you could take this one on those two trends and what you all are seeing in a bit more detail.
frank (17:21.452)
Thanks for watching.
frank (17:34.356)
Yeah, and I think it's, again, going back to when we first had our first conversation, you know, we went remote, primarily, and obviously, we'll call it hybrid now, because again, you'll have some companies that are still 100% remote, but hybrid. And you know, we've been since 2020 operating, you know, at these surge levels, and now employees are looking back and they're reclaiming those boundaries. And you know, work-life balance, you know, has always really been a priority for employees.
angela_r_howard (17:45.232)
Mm-hmm.
frank (18:04.232)
As we talked about going forward, we don't know what that's going to look like. We don't know what's going to happen in the world. We don't know what's going to be changing. Um, and the, the interesting thing about this, you know, in the, in the data that we saw is that work-life balance has gone down two points since last year. And, and again, when we think about, you know, increases in engagement scores or increases it just in other scores, two points might not seem like it's a huge thing, but if you think about it, we've been operating in this, in this world where we feel like.
it's important to not let our employees burn out, right? So we've made all these strides and we've seen this point still decline. And so that to me is a little concerning, I would say, and that maybe organizations are heading potentially in the wrong direction. I liken it to like DEI, we put so much effort and energy into DEI that if we see that the points go down, it's like, what have we been doing? You know, these past few, we know what's really important. We do nothing but talk about it all the time. And we put in programs that we think
angela_r_howard (18:38.187)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (18:47.895)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (18:55.564)
Right.
frank (19:03.556)
are helping us and yet our numbers are going down. Again, even if it's a little number, it's still going down in the wrong direction.
haley_kuschman (19:12.566)
Well, I think something I love about our report is that we don't stop there and just under segment the majority. We're going to dig into some of those different segments. Segmentation is just for all of you fellow data nerds out there, that's just the sweet spot for getting those insights that are so critical to actually changing an experience and even to liken it to a DEI analysis. I tell my customers all the time. If you only look at data in the majority.
angela_r_howard (19:12.671)
Haley, any insight from you?
angela_r_howard (19:27.574)
Hehehe
frank (19:37.324)
Mm-hmm.
haley_kuschman (19:41.374)
or in aggregate, you're only understanding the experience of the majority. That's just math. And so we have to dig in to really get some of those, those key insights and look at different experiences of different humans. And so one of the things specific to work-life balance that we see is that there's a pretty big difference in satisfaction with our C-suite or senior leaders down to our individual contributors. What we see is that for our C-suite leaders, they have about an 84% satisfaction with.
angela_r_howard (19:45.207)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
frank (20:01.618)
Mm-hmm.
haley_kuschman (20:10.614)
work-life balance. Pretty good. That's pretty positive, I would say. And the difference with that with individual contributors is only 67% of individual contributors feel the same way. We've coined the term experience gap, which I really like. But that really, to me, highlights an experience gap between. And we can speculate on some of the ideas of why that might be, whether that's expectations of the job, whether that's maybe the ability to fund a type of lifestyle that allows you to have work.
angela_r_howard (20:13.139)
Mm-hmm.
frank (20:23.954)
Mm-hmm.
haley_kuschman (20:39.266)
more work-life balance, whatever that might be, we know that there is a difference in expectations, and which leaves us an opportunity, I think, to address that. But even, I think, more importantly than just understanding that, what we know is that the people who say they have good work-life balance just have better scores all around for those outcomes that we've talked about, like engagement, like experience versus expectations, like feeling included, and it's significant.
angela_r_howard (20:40.477)
Hmm.
haley_kuschman (21:05.07)
It's not just a small amount. We see some pretty big jumps in scores for those folks who say, yeah, I feel like this is suiting me well, and I'm able to manage this in a way that meets my lifestyle.
angela_r_howard (21:18.587)
Yeah, that's pretty profound to think about the different levels and layers within an organization. I love the term experience gap because we also know the demographics of those different layers. The higher you get, the whiter and more male you get basically. So I think that's also a DE&I issue.
frank (21:38.263)
Good.
frank (21:42.028)
Thank you.
angela_r_howard (21:42.623)
when you talk about equity and we're not creating equal outcomes and opportunities, if we have that gap, if people are saying I can't manage my work and my life, and that's where I think we get into more of the societal issues, you know, with the stressors that women are facing when it comes to invisible labor at home and at work.
frank (22:05.119)
Mm-hmm.
frank (22:09.94)
All right.
angela_r_howard (22:10.815)
You know, people who are historically underrepresented, who are put in conditions that may impact that ultimate work-life balance. I think it's just kind of perpetuating what we're seeing in society, essentially. We're just like copying and pasting into the workplace system, which is interesting. How do employers plan to address that gap? Have you had any conversations, or are you all thinking of recommendations on how to create?
frank (22:27.884)
Thank you.
angela_r_howard (22:39.079)
less of a gap or to eliminate it at some point.
haley_kuschman (22:43.485)
Yeah, that's a big one.
frank (22:45.739)
That's it. Thank you Haley for taking this one.
angela_r_howard (22:48.942)
Sorry, I know that's a really big loaded question. We might not have the answer and that's okay. Yes, I agree.
frank (22:52.618)
That could be a whole podcast on its own, Angela, I think.
haley_kuschman (22:56.819)
No, I think it could. No, I think it's one, I'm going to always lean back on listening to your people because different industries and different geographies and whatever it is, you're going to have some different feedback and some different needs of your employees. So making sure that you're actually understanding the differences in some of those groups is a really good first step because you likely already have some answers in your data. So that's something that I would say to tell customers on that.
Um, the other would be to look pretty tightly at your performance, uh, your performance management systems. You, you said something Angela that kind of sparked, um, what we know is that as you climb the ladder, we get less and less diverse in terms of management levels. Um, and I would, it makes me wonder a little bit about burnout in that at the individual contributor level, we know that there is a broken rung at that, at that manager level, which is where then we see the cascading impacts.
angela_r_howard (23:29.878)
Mmm.
frank (23:45.131)
Mm-hmm.
haley_kuschman (23:51.394)
all the way up to that C-suite level of why we don't get a very diverse team. And that's maybe due to some of this burnout, that I can only manage my work-life balance in a certain way based off of responsibilities of my family or at home or whatever that might be, which might be preventing some of those promotions. So one I would say is look at those systems and understand what we're rewarding, what's the behavior that we're not rewarding that people are spending their time on, which we often know.
angela_r_howard (24:10.836)
Hmm.
haley_kuschman (24:19.594)
Well, I'll keep talking about DEI efforts, is that, is a lot of people are often investing in some of the maybe ERGs at work or these amazing initiatives that are creating a great work life experience or a great work experience, but those aren't rewarded in our performance and promotion systems. Um, that's probably one that I would say is always look there. Um, but a lot of it is going to depend on your employees as well.
angela_r_howard (24:33.591)
Hmm
angela_r_howard (24:44.231)
Yeah, and I'm curious, because last year, you know, I'm thinking back to our conversation and one of the predictions that we had was that there would be a mass exodus of women leaders. Did we, did we, I have a feeling we validated that, but is the data telling us that actually happened? It's happening now, essentially. Probably with the boundaries and the burnout, to your point, right? Where it's like, I just, I can't do this anymore. I...
haley_kuschman (25:02.582)
Yeah, it is.
angela_r_howard (25:13.951)
I've been balancing for so long. And I've, my own personal experience is exactly that. That's why I started my business because I was in, I was in corporate America, executive positions, and did not feel that sense of belonging or kind of fitting into the system and knowing that I had a lot of value and that I could do the really great work, but the system just kind of like rings you out
frank (25:31.628)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (25:43.995)
you know, kind of kicks you out, you know, in a way. And you have to make a choice. What are your boundaries and how much burnout can you actually take? So I feel that in my bones and in my soul. And I'm sure other women are feeling it, especially women of color are feeling it too.
haley_kuschman (25:55.95)
Thank you.
frank (25:59.42)
Yeah. And I think it's really interesting that you said that to Angela and how, you know, the corporate American kind of just kind of rung you out, right? And even in the data, when we look at our trends here, you know, there's a strong link between, you know, employees' willingness to go above and beyond and their perception of work-life balance. So again, I'm not going to try to tie this to quiet quitting by any means, you know, but again, you know, like you want your employees...
to be willing to go above and beyond in instances where they may need to, because that can impact your overall performance of the organization and thinking back to business outcomes. And it said, 63% of employees who feel they have a good work-life balance, are willing to go above and beyond for the organization. Whereas 29% of those that rate the work-life balance poorly, feel they have the motivation to go above and beyond. So there's a big gap there, between those that feel like they have it and...
angela_r_howard (26:49.707)
Hmm.
frank (26:53.352)
I think that's really telling. So if your employees don't feel like they have that, none of them are gonna go above and beyond. Maybe they won't answer that customer's email at 501 versus 501. You just never know, right? That could impact, again, business outcomes. So I thought that was really telling as well.
haley_kuschman (27:09.246)
Well, and I, that's such a good point that you made, Frank, with connecting into the customer experience, because that is one of those, when we talk about burnout, I think that can feel like a big, a big hairy topic that a lot of factors contribute to burnout. And so I think, you know, it's, it's easy for us here to say, go fix burnout companies. Um, but what I love about this report is we get into some of the how and how we start to impact burnout and one of the, one of the drivers that we found for burnout specifically this year was actually.
angela_r_howard (27:25.888)
Ha ha.
haley_kuschman (27:37.122)
bad processes and inefficient systems, which often includes poor technology experiences. We think about how many different technologies or apps that we use at work to do our job. It's quite a few. And if those don't work, that makes for a pretty bad day, especially if I'm in a customer-facing position and I'm standing in front of a customer and something that I need in order to meet their needs is not working. That's a pretty detrimental experience. And so I love
that this one actually did pop up because I think it puts a lot of emphasis on the voice of our frontline employees that sometimes get lost in some of the employee experience conversation because they're harder to reach, they're harder to get feedback from, but that's the majority of our workforce, it's the majority of our population and the ones who have the highest impact on our customer experience, which we care a lot about. That's how we stay in business, obviously. So I love that one popped up.
angela_r_howard (28:30.498)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (28:34.603)
So in other words, just get out of people's way. I mean, I've been talking about that forever. Like, we hire these brilliant people who have such amazing talent, and we just create all these barriers and obstacles for them to do their best work. And that could be like a shitty leader, or it could be shitty technology, or politics that cause people to...
haley_kuschman (28:36.878)
Thank you.
frank (28:52.844)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (29:02.119)
you know, have to generate a ton of additional emotional labor, which takes away from the work. Just get out of people's way, like get your shit together so people can do their work. Like, I don't know how else to describe it, but truly that's, that is like what that insight is telling us, which is just realize that if you have a broken process or, you know, a person who people are avoiding because they're hard to work with or
frank (29:05.611)
Mm-hmm.
frank (29:14.645)
I love it, I love it.
angela_r_howard (29:30.811)
unfriendly and they're not exemplifying the values of the organization, that is multiplying exponentially and impacting the work getting done, but also people's satisfaction, happiness and ability to even do their job.
frank (29:47.66)
I'm just always amazed that those people are still here all the time. Because I feel like that's going to be one of those things that we're going to talk about forever. And it's just a matter of like, to what point does it just break? And I think I would just add on one other thing, you know, around the processes is that when we went remote, you know, it was a shock to a lot of people, right? We went remote back in 2020. And you know, companies, we just employees, I think, were very willing to just let companies
angela_r_howard (29:55.537)
Gosh.
angela_r_howard (30:07.499)
Hmm.
frank (30:14.792)
you know, fail a little bit, you know, if things weren't perfect, like, hey, Mike, you know, I don't have all the equipment I need. But guess what? I'm not in the office, I'm safe, right? And they're willing to give companies a little bit of leeway. And now I think after a couple years, now three years, it's like, get your shit together. Right? Nick, now it's like, if the process is broken, if the person is inhibiting us, like we've given you enough leeway, and I always bring it back to DEI last year was one of our trends. It's like, you talked about DEI, you talked a good game about DEI, now we want you to do it. You know, and
angela_r_howard (30:29.331)
No.
frank (30:44.116)
You've talked a good game about technology, about processes, now do it. Right. And so I think these trends are intermingling a little bit, right. And that we're kind of like saying enough is enough. Like help us be successful because the employees that, that are feeling this want to be successful. And I think that's the key is that they want to be able to do their jobs and do their jobs really well.
angela_r_howard (30:50.657)
Yes.
haley_kuschman (31:05.226)
Yeah. And that's, I mean, with that, it's always so interesting to me. And we take this, we roll out new initiatives and those are built in a very corporate world oftentimes. And with that, it's very difficult, I think as a frontline employee to hear the message. Maybe it's fulfill orders faster. Maybe that's as a frontline employee, but in reality, what's happening is...
the technology that you've been given by your employer is really slow or it's clunky or it's not user friendly, which that's the reason why you can't do that. And so rather than telling our employees, do this faster or do this better, if we ask them, how do you think we could do this better? Or how could we allow you to do this faster? It changes, it just changes the narrative for one, from a human perspective. I think it shows a lot more empathy to our employees that we understand.
angela_r_howard (31:53.743)
Mm-hmm.
haley_kuschman (31:57.75)
We understand that fundamentally you want to do a good job and we want to help you do that good job because that's in the best interest of all of us. And it's so interesting that it's, it's the same question really at the heart of it, but it's a very different outcome, a very different output. And it gets us better feedback, which in the end helps us meet our customers needs better. Wild. What a concept.
frank (32:17.151)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (32:21.803)
I know what a complex concept. And I think it's also this, to be honest with you, I think it goes back to this idea of transparency and honestly trust because I think there's a general skepticism for some reason still around employees intentions. And I think that we really should be looking in words as leaders first to say,
what can I do to get out of this? Is this person failing because they're incapable or their intent is to sabotage the company and my results? Or is it because I'm in their way, a process is in their way, or there's something culturally that's causing them to behave this way or to, their outcome is somehow sabotaged because something's in their way, right? And I don't think we do that enough. I think we, honestly, we look to the employee a lot and say like,
well, you didn't deliver and why. And we just kind of berate them versus looking inwards to say what's in their way and how do we remove it and make sure that they can do what they were hired to do here.
frank (33:32.924)
And like Haley said, best way to find out is ask for feedback, find out what those things are and I feel like it always comes back to asking for feedback. And so that's why I'm still amazed in 2022, almost 2023, how many companies I talk to that aren't collecting any feedback. I sometimes wonder how they're doing it, how they're like how they're being successful. And I think back to Sherham 2022, I was at the national conference and I could count on probably twice my two hands, right? How many companies I talked to and they said, well, we don't ask for any feedback.
angela_r_howard (33:49.068)
Mm.
frank (34:02.024)
because we know it's going to be bad. And they kept walking. They kept walking. And I was just shocked. And all of this, not everything, but I always feel like a lot of the issues that we see, especially around this, is being able to listen, think about that feedback, and being thoughtful on how to take action on it. You know, and it's amazing. I really, and I'll take this to the grave with me, that it can be as simple as that. Like it can be.
Yes, there's other things you need to worry about, but it's as simple as that to start with and I think it'll solve a lot of problems for a lot of companies. This being one of them, this trend.
angela_r_howard (34:38.631)
Yeah, and there's a bit of maturity that you need to have, I think, in order to do that. So it doesn't surprise me, honestly, because I've witnessed organizations who are along their maturity model where they're a bit more mature, and those are the ones who usually who are enlightened enough to ask for feedback and to be mature enough to accept it. And we have a lot of traditional leadership still out there. So I think eventually there will be a turning over.
of the guard, if that makes sense, where we'll see a lot more feedback, but right now we're kind of in this, this interesting period of the old way and the new way. And the old way is kind of dying. Somebody mentioned this to me. They described it as like being in hospice, but you're also, you have all these, this birth happening around all these new paradigms that we're talking about. And so we're trying to nurture.
frank (35:08.532)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
angela_r_howard (35:35.699)
these old ideas and hospice until they die. And then we got to move on to the newly enlightened world that we're moving into. So it's a process. And speaking of that, the last trend is around connection to purpose and impact. So tell us a little bit more about that because that one to me ties into all of these pieces because I think burnout, for example, is really just.
a real disconnect between your values and your boundaries and what you're actually doing. So when you connect back to your purpose, I fundamentally believe that you could reduce some burnout, even if you're working more, because you're more in alignment with those values and your own purpose and mission. So maybe Haley, tell us a little bit more about that trend.
haley_kuschman (36:10.018)
Thank you.
frank (36:10.243)
Mm-hmm.
haley_kuschman (36:26.518)
Sure, yeah, I'm just processing what you just said. That's well summarized on your values and connecting that back to burnout. But you're exactly right that what we see as really important to employees is that it isn't just about having a job. That having a value system that you see within a company is important to align yourself to that. We've seen that in, you know, like,
I love that we've just steered most of this conversation back to the world of DEI. That's been such an important trend over the last few years. And I don't even really like to call it a trend because I think this is something that's here to stay and that should be here to stay. But we see that employees want to know what's it really like to work there. And we actually have the opportunity to see that before we started a company now because of social media that didn't exist five to 10 years ago. It wasn't as popular to see.
angela_r_howard (37:04.082)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (37:18.753)
Mm-hmm.
haley_kuschman (37:21.522)
All of the different filters available on Glassdoor that you can see different people's experiences. When we talk about our mission and vision, do people really live that? You can actually get access to that information. Now you don't have to rely on somebody who's interviewing you, who gives you a canned answer, um, that seems to just toe the company line, you know, they're just, they're, they're taking that line, but we're seeing that it's just extremely important to be. And like you said, you've been saying Angela transparent about that. Um.
angela_r_howard (37:37.497)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (37:42.316)
Yeah.
haley_kuschman (37:51.246)
to let people know what they're really getting into and does it align for what they want their life to be.
angela_r_howard (37:58.547)
freek anything to add.
frank (38:00.596)
Yeah, you know, I love this one. I really do. And I think, you know, going back to kind of your first question at the very beginning about what kind of impact we want to have, you know, I came to Qualtrics three years ago because, you know, I didn't feel like where I was at, I was, A, myself making a difference, right? I didn't feel like the product was making the difference it could have. And, you know, I wasn't fulfilled. It wasn't like it wasn't filling my bucket.
you know, per se. And I've been using that word a lot lately. I know, I know it's cliche and there's a book on how to fill your bucket and things like that. But it's one of those things where I always feel like I'm at my best, you know, and I feel like my bucket is full when I'm actually talking and speaking to customers or prospective customers who, who have challenges in their own organization. I feel like I'm actually able to help them because I truly believe in that this isn't a plug for Qualtrics, but, but the technology that we have or what we're doing, whether using Qualtrics or whoever else, right?
angela_r_howard (38:26.121)
Hmm.
frank (38:54.612)
that you're making that effort to collect feedback, you're making that effort to analyze and really understand what that feedback is saying, and then you're able to take action, right, that could impact, at the end of the day, your employees. And that's why, you know, it's more than just a job, right? I know I need to support my family, I need to pay my bills, but if you can find the ability to actually know that what you are doing is making a difference and helping other people, for me,
angela_r_howard (39:20.438)
Mm.
frank (39:24.052)
That's the most important thing. I can't go and just sell anything, right? I always tell people that. I wanna sell something that actually is truly making a difference, and that's me, but that's why I was so glad when I saw this, because that desire for alignment of values is a key reason why people stay and intend to stay. It's a key driver of that. And as Haley was mentioning too, it's also one of the top five drivers that we see of inclusion and burnout. You know what I mean? So again.
If you don't feel like you're making a difference, you're working really hard, you're burned out, but you can also not feel like you're included if you're not, again, we won't get too nerdy about it, but it's all interrelated a little bit. And so when I saw this come in, I'm like, this is speaking to me right now, more than anything as well.
angela_r_howard (40:01.911)
I'm sorry.
angela_r_howard (40:09.117)
Mm-hmm.
haley_kuschman (40:11.026)
Yeah. Well, and it's, I mean, it does just go back to that employees are, have expectations that we are transparent. You've been saying transparency a lot Angela, that if I feel like my organization is not living the values, I'm going to say something and I have some outlets to do that. And I'm able to see that I think in a way that
angela_r_howard (40:19.584)
Mm-hmm.
frank (40:20.032)
Thank you.
haley_kuschman (40:31.774)
Maybe I didn't have the opportunity before. And like Frank said, it's what I love about this is I think sometimes in the EX world, people can say, well, that's kind of squishy and that doesn't really, doesn't really even matter. We're just asking you about feelings. And while one, I think there is a camp of there's a right thing to do. I also love that the data does back it up. Like Frank said, we see that people are less likely to be burned out. They're more likely to stay when they feel like their organization is actually living the values.
angela_r_howard (40:42.687)
Hmm.
haley_kuschman (40:59.563)
So there is reason to invest here. There is reason to be mindful and thoughtful about what your values are outside of just the right thing to do.
angela_r_howard (41:09.659)
Yes, and also what your values aren't. That's, I think, an equally as important exercise. And a lot of the clients that I work with, because we're doing a lot of kind of resetting on culture, just like, are we still aligned as to what we mean by inclusion, for example? And every, actually 100% of the time, when I'm working with clients, they have their values.
Maybe they have behaviors attached to those values, but there's no honesty and integrity around how those things play out day in and day out. And so I think another source of burnout, quite honestly, is cognitive dissonance. When you keep hearing inclusion, collaboration, and then you're literally sitting in a meeting where people are yelling at each other, or you witness exclusion on a daily basis.
frank (41:35.677)
Mm-hmm.
frank (41:48.402)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (42:02.479)
That is frightening, first of all. I mean, cognitive dissonance is not a fun human experience because you feel like you're getting being gaslit a little bit on a daily basis. And two, it's just, it's confusing. You know, we talk about emotional labor, but just being trying to reconcile what an organization says and does is really taxing. It's really taxing. And it seems to be, at least with my clients,
frank (42:08.981)
Mm-hmm.
frank (42:24.382)
and.
angela_r_howard (42:32.419)
the biggest disruptor to healthy culture is when organizations do that. So, you know, I kind of tell people sometimes, you know, let's just be really honest. Like, what do we value? Let's not say we value people when actually we value profit over people. Let's not say that we value inclusion when all of our processes and programs are exclusive, I can't even, what's the word?
exclude people. Let's not say we're a remote first company when reality there's a perception that if you work in the office you're actually getting your work done. Like these are how value systems actually get implemented. So I absolutely love having you both on. I mean you both are brilliant and bring such fantastic perspective to this work. And I
frank (43:01.362)
Yeah.
haley_kuschman (43:10.571)
Yeah.
angela_r_howard (43:25.407)
I definitely feel the difference that's happening. And really it comes back to, I think the employer-employee relationship and transparency. A lot of that, I think, if we can just be really real about what it is we want, what we need, and then make sure those experiences are matching and we're closing that gap, I think that is kind of the theme for next year. If you're a leader listening to this, I think you have to lean into that and also be really honest with yourself as a leader.
you know, with creating this experience for your employees.
haley_kuschman (43:58.166)
Hmm. I love that. I think one thing that whenever I talk to customers, and you probably hear this too, Angela and Frank, that sometimes this can feel pretty audacious. This can feel maybe even a little hard to reach and what's my first next step. And I always like to kind of bring it back down to it. Like if you can't do, if you can't address all four address one and pick the one that's most important and maybe, maybe these don't resonate with everybody. And that's okay, but there is something to be improved. There's always something to be improved.
And trying to boil the ocean is where we see people kind of fall apart and there's just ineffective progress when we try to do everything. Um, so I think that's, I always want to give that one kind of disclaimer at the end of all of these things are important to be fair, but doing something well and fixing something, if you can only do one this year, then do one and pick.
angela_r_howard (44:27.479)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (44:49.919)
Hmm. Frank, any last words?
frank (44:52.776)
Yeah, yeah, you know, I always go back to collecting feedback. And I think, you know, I think I might have used this quote last time, but it literally resonates with me all the time from our own chief people officer, Julia, you know, is that, you know, she always says that the best organizations seek to listen and understand instead of having, trying to have the perfect plan on day one. Right. And so as we go into this new year, you see these trends like, wow, these are four big trends, you know, but Haley said you can't boil the ocean.
angela_r_howard (45:13.483)
Hmm.
frank (45:20.896)
But again, if you don't know where to start, ask for some feedback on things. Again, going back to very low maturity levels, ask for feedback on things you're willing to take action on. Start there and then see what the feedback is, communicate it, take action on a few things. And some of these trends might show up in your data. They might, you know what I mean? Or at least in some variation, they probably will, depending on your organization. But...
angela_r_howard (45:33.323)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
frank (45:50.432)
But just seek to listen and understand versus having the perfect plan on day one.
angela_r_howard (45:55.095)
I love it. Yeah, this is this is a journey. It's an iterative process always. And so I will be including the report in our show notes so folks can read it in full. But I think listening to you both, you've provided a really fantastic overview of where we need to really kind of get the biggest bang for our buck as we're thinking about going into the new year, but also realizing that these things are building on each other. So.
I appreciate you both and we'll see you next year.
haley_kuschman (46:27.019)
See you next year. I love that.
frank (46:28.327)
See you next year. Thanks, Angela.
angela_r_howard (46:30.719)
Thanks Frank, thanks Hailey.
