The Power of Vulnerability with Nick Jonsson

angela_r_howard (00:02.707)

All right, hello, everyone. I am joined today, by, Nick Johnson, who is coming to me from, all the way from Malaysia, right? Gosh, it's like really early in the morning for you. Today, tomorrow, maybe somewhere else. But Nick is the Managing Director of EGN and is deeply passionate about mental health awareness,

nick_jonsson (00:15.45)

Yes, Malaysia today.

angela_r_howard (00:32.707)

population. And so I am very excited to have you, Agnick. I could never do justice to your intro, so I want you to give us a little bit more context around who you are as a human, what you do, but also the impact you're looking to make on the world.

nick_jonsson (00:48.11)

Right. Thank you so much, Angela, for inviting me to be with you on the show today. So yes, I was born in Sweden and educated at a university in Australia. And then for the last 20 years, I've worked in Southeast Asia mainly in Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia, and Malaysia, and lived in Singapore for the last five years. So illy Southeast Asia where I have grown my career. And for the first 15 years of that was basically in the corporate world,

nick_jonsson (01:18.59)

to then a general manager, managing director, and general director. So a quite steady career path. In the last five, or six years though, I left the corporate world and I'm now running confidential peer groups for senior executives and business owners. So what we are providing are safe spaces for the members to discuss their work-related challenges so that they feel sympathy in getting support to solve the challenges that they're facing on a day-to-day basis.

that we can say that basically, it is supporting them to make sure that they feel that they're not alone and also that they overcome the difficulties that they face.

angela_r_howard (02:02.267)

Wow, yeah, so I'm really curious to hear what got you to that point of launching this kind of community because we're gonna talk a little bit more about executive burnout, and mental health with executives, which I think is such an important topic, especially when it comes to leadership and workplaces and how they're showing up for their people, right, because as leaders, we need to be kind of full and our cups full to pour back into the people who work for us.

that got you here, I guess the passion around that. And then I'd love to jump into the conversation about mental health and executive.

nick_jonsson (02:40.57)

Yeah, sure. And definitely outside the workplace as well. I'm doing a lot of things today for charities and other organizations, which we will talk about for sure today as well. But inside then, EGN and what brought me there was that when I'm looking back at my corporate career, I realized that perhaps too often I made the big challenging decisions myself.

angela_r_howard (02:46.631)

Hmm.

nick_jonsson (03:10.57)

us the challenges with my boss. I also felt many times that perhaps I shouldn't talk to my team about this. I'm expected to do this. I'm paid to do this job. So I left work, going home feeling stressed, feeling pressured, and I didn't have anyone to talk to about it. Even worse, maybe I went to see some friends and maybe I went for a workout with them, or I went to the bar and saw some friends have some drinks and relax.

and forgot all about work. But then when I came back the next morning, the problems were still there. So my issue when I'm looking back at my corporate career was that I was not honest enough, I was not open, not vulnerable enough. And that is what I saw that I'm not alone in this. Some so many leaders lead in this way as well. So that is what I'm now basically on a mission to change.

angela_r_howard (04:08.767)

Yeah, so can you talk a little bit more about that experience? Because people listening range from executives, so they're probably like, hearing your story right now and thinking, gosh, yeah, I can relate to that. But what is the, I guess, current state of executive mental health burnout, and loneliness? What are some, I guess, facts and figures that kind of tell us that this is a problem today?

nick_jonsson (04:34.01)

Yeah, so I started to look into this and this was in 2019 after I had my sort of challenges and I had hit rock bottom which we can talk about today. But as I was coming back, you know, into being feeling better and so on about things I was researching the numbers and I realized that about 30% of adults are suffering from loneliness worldwide and I wanted them to

nick_jonsson (05:04.09)

surveyed senior executives in senior roles and I found that about 33% of them were suffering from loneliness and this was 2019 just before the pandemic. I then had a chance to go back to the same group in 2020 when most of them were running you know companies from home being isolated and no surprise that 60% of them were suffering from loneliness and isolation at this place.

nick_jonsson (05:33.95)

Then you're asking them, you know, is it something that you talk to your report about your boss or your HR team and 84% of them do not mention this to the company. So that is the big challenge. Then you ask them one follow-up question, do you seek professional help for this or talk to someone else about it 75% say no. So what this is showing is exactly like me. People are, you know, grinding through pushing on, and not talking about this.

angela_r_howard (06:04.467)

Why do you think that is?

nick_jonsson (06:06.09)

Well, it is the stigma surrounding this topic that people, you know, believe that they should be shown to have the answers, especially senior executives. And it's also what I also realized because I see this in myself as, you know, what perhaps drove me to becoming a senior executive was perhaps being an anxious overachiever.

nick_jonsson (06:36.23)

than everyone else to prove to themselves and prove to others that they can do the job. So when other people then perhaps have balanced lives to prioritize family and so on, who cannot put in, you know, 15 hours a day and working perhaps the whole weekend to prepare for things for the workplace, then they are left behind. And what I see then is, you know, really a lot of the senior executives prioritize work over everything else.

angela_r_howard (07:07.007)

Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, I just think about myself as a CEO of a company and you've kind of positioned some thoughts that, that I resonate with, which is this idea of, it feels lonely. Lonely at the top is something that people say a lot, but it's this thought that perhaps there's also been this artificial barrier between maybe like

or an executive or a CEO in their team, because there's a sense of authority or that your team can always maybe be themselves or reach out or the support doesn't go both ways. And so I just think it's an interesting dynamic that we've created for ourselves in the paradigm of work and leadership that I think you're trying to break the walls out a little bit with that.

nick_jonsson (08:00.61)

Yes, definitely. And let's also clarify here that, you know, being a CEO of a small company, even if you're a solopreneur, that's still only at the top. It doesn't matter if it's a big organization. It just means that it's more layers and it's perhaps a different kind of loneliness when you have many layers and there are more people in the office and you're sitting there, perhaps with the door closed, and having lunch by yourself when your colleague goes out. So perhaps it's more visible and you can feel it in a different

angela_r_howard (08:13.602)

Yeah.

nick_jonsson (08:30.65)

solopreneur and running your own business, which I'm sure many of the listeners do, can also be very lonely unless you have created a strong network of support who can help you with your decisions. Then every decision is basically for yourself, right?

angela_r_howard (08:50.308)

Yeah, that's a great point. And I would love to hear, I know we're talking about executives and CEOs and the folks who are feeling this loneliness. We know that there's a mental health challenge across the workplace. So how do you think this impact trickles down into an organization?

nick_jonsson (09:09.59)

Well, I think when the pandemic came, it started to be a bit trendy to ask your team, you know, are you okay? And it was okay to ask that. But you start to wonder, you know, how much substance is it behind that is okay? I mean, maybe a few people were a little bit vulnerable and shared a little bit honestly, but most people were just like, yeah, I'm okay, nothing going on or, or you share something, you know, but it would be very shallow. So what I find is that most conversations are very shallow. It seems

angela_r_howard (09:39.788)

Hmm.

nick_jonsson (09:39.87)

with perhaps with ourselves and our colleagues if it ends up bad. But we are trying everything we can to hide behind what I call a smile in depression where you know it's this facade that we want to show to the world and you just have to look on any social media. Let's look at for example LinkedIn. Everyone is putting on the best show, putting on the awards and the awards wins and all the media exposure and so on including myself. That is what we are

nick_jonsson (10:09.77)

for that. If that is just who you're trying to be because you're trying to look good to make sure that you're employed because you worry about losing your job or you want to be in this gig economy be attractive for various contracts. But if it's like you're putting on this show just for that, then that's not yourself authentically, then there's a mismatch. And eventually, you know, the wheels are going to fall off, which they did for me once I had some, you know,

that I went through in 2015, it was a downward spiral from there.

angela_r_howard (10:48.009)

Would you be willing to share your experience about, because you mentioned, kind of, you went through a personal challenge?

nick_jonsson (10:51.412)

Yes, sir.

nick_jonsson (10:55.83)

Angela. So what happened was that at that stage, I resigned from my job. I also filed for a divorce and in that go, I moved country and my ex-wife and son moved to another country. So suddenly I was not only without my colleagues, but also without my family. And I was jumping from job to job for a while. And when I was on this shaky ground, I lost my habits and so on.

angela_r_howard (11:14.509)

Hmm.

nick_jonsson (11:25.79)

a while and I increasingly turned to alcohol instead of exercise. And everyone including my friends said for a while, it's great. It's good to see Nick that you're enjoying yourself. You have always been the one who's working too hard and never shows up for these things. So people were quite pleased with me and said, you look relaxed and so on. And but, you know, over time, being in temporary jobs and, you know, having too much alcohol in myself, I also gained weight.

angela_r_howard (11:33.488)

Hmm.

nick_jonsson (11:56.03)

Without realizing it, I fell into a depression. I was anxious about the future and Because it was so slowly, you know, it's like when you start to gain weight You don't realize it yourself before you actually have to go and buy a new wardrobe But it's also similar to that with addictions, you know, they come creeping on you So what I started as two or three beers off the work could turn into suddenly it was a daily affair and then it's hard to break that

angela_r_howard (12:24.853)

Hmm.

nick_jonsson (12:25.79)

lying between bad habits and an addiction. And I didn't realize that this had become an addiction before I was hooked. And that's when I eventually actually, hit rock bottom, I even was desperate to get good medical insurance, assigned life insurance, assigned my will, because I was just feeling so sick that at that time, I wasn't sure if how, or if it was possible

angela_r_howard (13:00.547)

Wow, what a story. I'm so sorry to hear that happened to you. And it sounds like you found a way to, I'm assuming, pull yourself out of it because you now have this successful business where you're helping other people talk through these difficult things and face these difficult things. So what turned it around for you?

nick_jonsson (13:19.37)

Well, at that time, what was the savor was that I finally, after I had written my will sorted out all those things. And you know, something lifted me. I started to feel a bit relieved. And I also decided then to tell a person who became my new wife, how I felt internally. And she had no idea and she had been by my side here at this time. She said, Nick, you, you're always happy and smiling and you know, you're so good with other people.

idea. But she did what most human beings would have done when they were told she was offered to help. She brought me to a doctor. She also brought me to a friend who had gone through something similar a few years ago. And she introduced me to some other people. And, you know, within 24 hours, I was fully supported. And then the loneliness suddenly disappeared. So it was really like a fast crash down at the end when I was losing my health

angela_r_howard (14:15.367)

Hmm.

nick_jonsson (14:19.37)

up this support network around me in the personal space where I completely felt that this was not something that I had to be shy about. Many people have gone through this before. They have recovered, and I also called one of these support recovery programs. There are so many anonymous recovery programs. And in there, there were all these successful people. You said, yeah, I went through something 15 years ago. You're not alone.

going through a divorce and with all the challenges that come with that and who have then fallen off you know the good habits and picked up some bad habits so it was just humanized and there was no longer all this shame around this but that's when I also realized you know that why don't we talk about this more why do we have to go so far that we hit rock bottom as in my case and I also just

angela_r_howard (15:00.988)

Hmm.

nick_jonsson (15:19.65)

suddenly died of suicide and that's when I also decided to, you know, really open up and and share this with the world.

angela_r_howard (15:30.787)

Wow, yeah, I can see a lot of parallels to, you know, the community that you've created, which it sounds like, and you tell me if I'm off base here, but it sounds like this is an opportunity, this community that you've brought together to not just work through business challenges, but also I don't think you can take the human part out of that, right? Like the personal challenges that relate to some of the things we have to deal with as executives.

we're leading a team as we're thinking about our well-being and self-reflecting on our blind spots. And so how do you, I guess, how do you successfully mix those two conversations so that the holistic executive is being taken care of and supported in the group?

nick_jonsson (16:18.45)

Yeah, so I think it's essential that we practice the vulnerability in muscle, as I call it. It starts by discussing things in good times when we do not have a mental issue or major crisis in our lives. We shouldn't have to wait for a divorce or an addiction or, you know, loss of jobs or anything else like that to have vulnerable, honest conversations.

angela_r_howard (16:25.667)

Hmm.

nick_jonsson (16:48.57)

that I'm now working with, where we're meeting on a day-to-day basis. Each group meets six times a year. For half a day, these sessions are scheduled one year in advance. Members are encouraged to prepare for them and come in and share their challenges. And then we discuss this. So it's a safe space where you practice being honest with yourself and other people. And if we do that in the good times, then also, you know, once we are facing some difficult challenges,

angela_r_howard (17:01.567)

Hmm.

nick_jonsson (17:18.37)

to ask for help is much easier to take. So while I professionally do this now with organizations on work-related matters, there's also of course having that support network picked up proactively so that you know where to go if you also have some mental issues and so on and that you're supported. So again, the step to ask for help is also something that you have proactively prepared for.

So you're almost preparing yourself for a rainy day when you have already these contacts and you proactively belong to these networks.

angela_r_howard (17:59.927)

Yeah, so you mentioned vulnerability, which I think is a tactical thing that executives can work on because I think we're taught as you climb the ranks within a corporate organization or if you build your own business that we always have to be right. And we always have to be on almost, you know, there's kind of this performative feeling of responsibility, which is I think correct.

angela_r_howard (18:29.867)

values, all of that. But what are some other characteristics or maybe tactics that executives, whether they're in your group or in the peer group that you've developed or not, that executives can start to kind of change some paradigms around to be better?

nick_jonsson (18:50.55)

Well, it's really about being surrounded and supported by like-minded. So we have plenty of peer groups at different levels. We don't necessarily mix the CEO of the big companies with 5,000 staff, with a solopreneur. We do that in cross-group meetings and events and so on, where it's topic-related, where they might have interest in a similar topic, like about AI or trends and so on. But in these peer group discussions, there should be people with similar responsibilities.

solopreneurs have conversations with solopreneurs and the big CEOs with many staff and have conversations with other like-minded what we found is that it's essential that you can feel that you're understood and that you feel that there are other people here. You know, perhaps they are selling different products or different kinds of industries so that you also don't have your competitor there. But they should then have conversations with like-minded. It's about having that understanding first, because also

Imagine that you are a CEO and you have 5,000 employees coming home to talk about your challenges with your family to vent yourself We'll have no so there's no solution in that you would will just know Make perhaps your partner feeling confused and feeling that they are helpless cannot be of service or and then there's the breakdown in the relationship

angela_r_howard (20:01.067)

Hmm.

angela_r_howard (20:09.508)

Hmm.

nick_jonsson (20:21.05)

anything and let's mention addiction or as I said habits can easily fall into bad addictions and we are surrounded by so many everything from social media, shopping, gambling, alcohol, drugs, and medications. There are so many that people can pick up in these challenging times and to come and talk to you know your family about this can also be difficult because they only want

nick_jonsson (20:51.151)

about having the right people to talk to so that you get the support you need.

angela_r_howard (21:00.667)

Wonderful. Well, I want to thank you for creating that space for this group. I see, first of all, thinking about these folks as human beings, and how we provide that support and that safe space. But I also think the impact of what those folks can have on other people and the businesses they're

angela_r_howard (21:30.567)

communities, to the world, you know, there's such a ripple effect. I think if an executive or executive team is not healthy, whether it's the individual or them as a group, it just has such an impact, a downward impact on the people within the organization. So, Nick, I would love for you to just let the audience know folks who are listening to this and they're like, oh my gosh, yes, this is something I need, or this is something I want to engage in to better myself or maybe my executive team or folks within my organization.

Where can people find you? And if they wanted to join this peer group, what would be the best way to do that?

nick_jonsson (22:06.49)

Yeah, so there are so many peer groups also in the US. I mean, even for the CEOs, it's starting with companies like Vistage, for example, and so on. And you can just Google, you know, peer groups, confidential peer groups, peer networks, there will be a lot available all over the country for you as well. So then on the non-professional side, outside of the workplace, you know, there's so many of the anonymous support groups

nick_jonsson (22:37.11)

and as charities, this doesn't cost anything. I dedicate a lot of my time now to 12-step programs and so on. So if anyone or the listeners feel that perhaps they have a bad habit, which is about to perhaps turn into an addiction, then look up these organizations and join them, just join a meeting or two to see if it's for you or not. There will be no strings attached, it's anonymous. So that's my recommendation for that. But otherwise, if you're feeling bad,

support to reach out to, you know, there's a therapist and psychologist who you can talk to online these days. Again, you can do it, perhaps, you know, during your lunch break, go away to a confidential private place to have these calls. So you don't have to be seen in person. As for the organization, I'm working with now in Southeast Asia here, it's called EGN, Executives Global Network. Otherwise, you can look me up on LinkedIn. Or finally,

Och det är en bok som heter Exekutive Loneliness.

angela_r_howard (23:43.107)

Wonderful. We'll make sure that all of those are in the show notes so that folks can easily click and either find you or EGN and connect that way. But I want to thank you so much for your time today. Again, your organization creating space for conversations like this, and appreciate your time and and expertise today.

nick_jonsson (24:07.95)

Thank you so much Angela for covering this topic and for having me on the show.