The Energized Workplace with Perry Timms
angela_r_howard (00:00.87)
Peri, welcome to the podcast. It's so great to have you.
perry_timms (00:04.006)
Angela, thank you. I'm honored to be here. Thank you.
angela_r_howard (00:07.69)
Yes, and tell us who you are, what you do, and the impact you're looking to make on the world.
perry_timms (00:11.03)
Hmm. Hmm, thank you. So I'm based right in the center of England. So if you know Birmingham and you know London, I'm kind of in the middle of those two. I have for the last 10 years been running my enterprise. So People and Transformational HR, PTHR. And the backstory though, before I did that, I spent six years working in the nonprofit arena in organization design.
angela_r_howard (00:21.201)
Mmm.
perry_timms (00:39.97)
talent, that kind of thing. Before that, I worked in the UK Civil Service. So I worked in the courts and legal system. But I spent most of my time working on projects that were helping modernize, I suppose you'd say, through technology. But the interesting piece for me was where technology met human beings and the sort of training that's needed to help them do that. So that's how I found my way into HR. Yeah, so I'm from a small town, but with big ambitions and the impact I want to have.
angela_r_howard (00:53.516)
Mm.
perry_timms (01:08.294)
is throughout my working life, I can only describe as a discovery journey, who I am and what I'm all about. And I see a lot of people who don't have that. So I think that's unfair. So my mission is to help people find who they are through their work. Because I think when you do that, you can achieve a state that's called flourishing. And I've had a very flourishing working career. So yeah, that's pretty much what I do.
angela_r_howard (01:33.55)
Yeah, and you talk a lot about kind of the conditions of the organization to create those results because, and I don't know, you know, we can kind of have a conversation around this, but I think a lot of times we put that on the individual, right, like just flourish, thrive, you can do it, right. So, what are some of the things that the organization, I guess, must think about to create those conditions?
perry_timms (01:48.17)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
perry_timms (01:59.15)
Mm. Mm. So I guess it all starts with the reason the organization exists in the first place. And so I'm fascinated by the concept of purpose and meaning. And let's just say there are some organizations where that's clear. You might be a social enterprise, or you might be looking after children or adult care. And there are lots of other companies who are stacking up profit. And they will say that that's their purpose too. I guess.
angela_r_howard (02:21.557)
Mm.
perry_timms (02:26.062)
bring more value to their shareholders. I'm like, no, that's your outcome. But your purpose is to provide a service or something that people want, right? So I think that's the kind of thing that interests me. Now, people flourishing doesn't just happen if they work for a humanitarian aid organization or through something that seems to have civic duty attached to it. It can be that you work for a company that makes money, but that provides a service that people need.
angela_r_howard (02:30.17)
Hmm.
perry_timms (02:55.326)
in retail or manufacturing or increasingly, I suppose, we're seeing industries sort of growing like technology for good that helps you make more choices and live life with more options. And it might be that it's in things like green and renewable energy, conservation, whatever it might be. So I think it's sometimes easier for people to kind of find their connection to that purpose by going, yeah, I believe in that. I believe in social good or I believe in helping the environment.
angela_r_howard (03:13.012)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (03:21.358)
Mm-hmm
perry_timms (03:23.17)
But to a lot of people, they're trying to make ends meet. They're trying to get paychecks that help them live their lives. And they might not see purpose as an entitlement to them. They're like, no, I'm just serving tables, or I'm on a production line. But they're part of a team. They're part of something that's got history, perhaps, that's got a future, that they could find who they are and maybe what they started doing isn't what they should be doing, if that.
sense and I love the thought that organizations help people kind of discover that. So they develop, educate, they bring people's attention to things like team and camaraderie and ethics and morality and adaptation and versatility because I think that then opens up a whole kind of spectrum of choice for people. So I think where I see people who don't have that, the choices are just not there. Where I see people who are quite
angela_r_howard (04:13.512)
Hmm.
perry_timms (04:20.074)
vibrant about their work, and almost choice is abundant. There's almost so much they could do that they're sort of excited and engaged in their work. So I love to see organizations that are deliberately developmental. That's what I'd say.
angela_r_howard (04:35.21)
Yeah, you bring up an interesting point and what it made me think of was like the Maslow hierarchy of needs in a way, right? Because, you know, if you are, let's say living in poverty or, you know, you're trying to live paycheck to paycheck, how can you even get to that next tier of belonging or camaraderie? So, what are some ways, I guess, that organizations can do this in a sense?
perry_timms (04:41.326)
ん
perry_timms (04:51.786)
Yeah, yeah.
perry_timms (04:58.414)
Mmm.
angela_r_howard (05:04.23)
a sustainable way for the organization, but also for the people.
perry_timms (05:07.586)
For sure, for sure. I mean, there are people needed who will do work that means they get dirty or it's kind of mundane or repetitive, or whatever it might be. But people need to do that until we get the kind of level of automation that perhaps is talked about in the future with robots doing things and what have you. However, that may not be what you do forever. So I think there's something about organizations that can just give people the chance to explore what are they good at. What are they excited by?
What lights them up? What gives them energy? And one of my favorite phrases is by an American, and he was professor, Howard Thurman. And he said, don't ask what the world needs. Ask what brings you to life, and go and do that. Because what the world needs is people who've come to life. And I think it's that. It's almost like you don't have to tolerate or just accept that where you are now is where you will be forever, even if you perhaps.
opted out of education or you're from a poor background. So I came from a working-class background. My parents worked in a factory making shoes. I went to school, but I didn't go to university. But I was lucky in that I had a thirst for knowledge. I had a kind of a sense that there was always something exciting for me to do if I just looked and found it and I was fortunate enough that things happened around me that helped me explore that and kind of craft that.
And in an organization that can design those kinds of opportunities for people where they can talk to colleagues in different roles, understand what kind of level of intellect you need or skill you need and how they can acquire that, I think it just gives people this sense like I'm not here forever, but I can do a good job while I'm here. And I know my future might be something over.
in a different part of this organization. So, loyalty could come from that, but I think it's just this sense that you are more than, you're defined by some kind of job description.
angela_r_howard (07:04.99)
Hmm. Yeah. And so I mean, there's organizational, I think barriers to what you're saying, because what it what comes to mind for me is this, you know, this concept of, you know, I work with a lot of organizations that there's a little bit of talent hoarding, right? It's like, I've got this person in this role, and they're so good at it. So let me just hold on to them. Let me hold on tight. So what kind of mindset shifts or paradigm shifts do organizations need to
perry_timms (07:21.634)
Yeah. Yeah.
perry_timms (07:26.892)
Yeah.
perry_timms (07:31.45)
Mm. Mm. Mm. I think the psychology of us will tell you that we are hardwired, I guess, to want to sort of master something, to do well at something. So whether it's a hobby like playing the guitar or whether it's your paid work, we tend to have this drive that we can't resist, it's almost like in us, to do it well.
angela_r_howard (07:35.132)
for this shift to happen.
perry_timms (07:57.814)
So I think there's something about when people have hit that level that they know they can do it well, they kind of thirst for a bit more, right? So if you try and keep them in that role because they're a good performer, eventually they'll get frustrated. So I think there are several options you can do as an organization. You can give them some assignments. You can say, hey, you're good at this. So what we'd love you to do is perhaps spend a little bit of time helping us improve this process or looking at a way we can serve customers better. Or maybe you could be the kind of person who could onboard new employees. All these things.
angela_r_howard (08:10.057)
Hmm.
perry_timms (08:27.47)
kind of cost very little except effort and will. And I think that kind of thing helps people go, hey, I'm valued because I'm being asked to do something. Now, what you shouldn't do as an organization is take that as just piling more onto people to get more from them, right? Because you'll just kind of go, oh, hang on a minute, this is not fair. So I think there's something about the balance that's there, but we tend to like to have that kind of sense that there's more to us than that.
angela_r_howard (08:30.492)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (08:41.453)
Mmm, yeah.
angela_r_howard (08:46.153)
Mm-hmm.
perry_timms (08:53.486)
perhaps we've been used to doing and that might help them discover. I mean, you know, me and the learning and development world, I didn't know I was good at running training courses until I did them. And then I thought, yeah, I like this. So I ended up working in that sort of area. So I think there's that. But I think there's a kind of conversation to have with perhaps somebody who's maybe a supervisor or a team leader, where the team leader can just look the person in the eye and kind of go, what are you all about? Tell me all about the things you enjoy and that bring you to life.
angela_r_howard (09:04.371)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (09:21.98)
Mm-hmm.
perry_timms (09:22.046)
Because I think if we have that conversation, the team leader might go, hmm, so you like complex problem solving and using numbers. Well, we don't have many people on the team that can do that. But I reckon there are some things you can do. So before, often what happens is you sort of adapt your job. And I think from that, you start to be a little bit more aware of what you're capable of. And then I think those people who think they're hoarding talent will have to think again about, maybe, I should let this person go, but use them.
angela_r_howard (09:33.65)
Hmm.
perry_timms (09:49.226)
to bring the next generation of people into that role so that have a kind of fresh start. A bit like, I suppose, in football, where you get the kind of rookies who are taken under the wing by the experienced people, knowing that they'll probably take their role eventually. But they kind of do it because it's right for the team. I think there's something nice about it.
angela_r_howard (09:49.692)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
angela_r_howard (10:04.919)
Mm-hmm
angela_r_howard (10:09.45)
Yeah, yeah, I think that's also a paradigm shift of, you know, this kind of self-serving agenda and climbing the ladder, you know, all of that that I think we've been taught often in organizations like let me look out for myself and achieving my goals versus it's not your talent, it's our talent. Let's think about how we mobilize it in the right way. So that's a shift.
perry_timms (10:18.634)
Mm.
perry_timms (10:26.903)
Yeah.
Totally that, yeah, totally that. And I think what I've seen in managers who are perhaps a little bit more attuned to that, they recognize that those people, if they kind of kept them, they would probably diminish their returns after a while and they'd frustrate them. So I think the best thing is to find their sort of level, stimulate them as much as possible, and eventually let them go maybe. But you could also kind of groom them as your successor. You can kind of bring them into your world and see if they're capable of stepping into that space. Because again, that's what people did for me and it helped me.
angela_r_howard (10:42.715)
Mm-hmm
perry_timms (10:59.702)
So I think there's something about generosity and there's something about spotting potential. There's a manager, you're like, I help that person. That's kind of what I'm here to do really. I'm not a bureaucrat who manages workload and reports. I've got these people's lives in my hands and actually, I'm kind of in service of unleashing their full potential. I think something is fulfilling as a team lead to do that.
angela_r_howard (11:12.571)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (11:23.45)
Yeah, I think that you've just defined leadership in a nutshell. That is leadership. We have a responsibility to people. And I want to ask you a question about something you mentioned a little bit earlier in, you know, kind of jobs and where they're going, the automation. What does that mean for a strategic way to, I guess, upskill people with organizations as well?
perry_timms (11:26.754)
Hehehehehehe Hehehehehehe
perry_timms (11:49.602)
Yeah, I mean, I guess Angela, this is topical because at the moment the world is gripped by chat GPT and GPT-4 and generative artificial intelligence, right? And I think what we're seeing there is people are using it going, wow, all this like an administration that I used to do, I can just kind of ask the machine to write a report for me. Wow. So then people are going, oh, but what does that mean for the people who would normally draft that report? Yeah, that could be.
angela_r_howard (11:53.25)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (11:56.491)
Hmm.
perry_timms (12:16.486)
So I think we thought automation would be robotics and it would be, you know, the kind of manual and perhaps like I say, repetitive work. But it's not just that now. I think it's analytic. It's even storytelling and we're seeing generative AI and produce art and music and stuff. So I think there's something about, yeah, we've got to be alive to this. And I think there is something about the work we do that we're attached to because it kind of shows that we're contributing, but that we ought to think
angela_r_howard (12:22.633)
Mm.
perry_timms (12:44.738)
But if I don't have to do that, where else could I go with the kind of things I'm interested in and capable of? So I think in customer service, great example, right? If you're dealing with repetitive query on query, same thing, it's like the bot will do that. But where it deviates from the norm and it's a complex problem to solve for somebody, you could spend proper time.
angela_r_howard (12:58.502)
Mm.
perry_timms (13:06.518)
talking to that person, solving that problem, and giving them the kind of concierge, high touch, human service that we all crave, right? While the bot is dealing with the simple, repetitive stuff. Now as a person doing the work, that must feel so much more fulfilling because you're getting to know intimately their challenge and help them out. So instead of just going through the mill like 58 times a day, you're dealing with these three, four, five tricky things that you can help people with. So I think that is where we look at it. It's like...
angela_r_howard (13:16.033)
Hmm.
perry_timms (13:34.87)
We don't have to just offload jobs. We make them more sophisticated, touch variables and deal with the complexity. Because I think that's more rewarding work anyway. Now as a company, what that can then give you is a kind of an advantage, I suppose, where you can start to say, hey, look, our bot is so top. It will give you all the kind of base-level query you want, but know that when it needs a human, we've got some strong people with real commitment who are going to get you the result.
angela_r_howard (13:39.652)
Hmm.
perry_timms (14:02.41)
And people kind of go, well, hey, that's my kind of organization. So it should be a kind of retention tool for customers and employees. I mean, there are some things where I think technology will strip out a whole range of roles and people go, what does that mean? But I think it gives us a chance to go, but what would you rather do? And then start to think about redeployment for sure.
angela_r_howard (14:05.852)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (14:10.471)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (14:20.391)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (14:23.911)
Yeah, it's a topic that's been on my mind and I find it kind of ironic, especially in the work that we do. You know, we call some of these skills soft skills for so long. And now they are the hardest and the most prevalent of skills.
perry_timms (14:33.182)
Mm, yeah. Exactly. They so are. I mean, if you're a manager, you've probably got a whole administrative series of things you have to do, plus all the people stuff, plus perhaps your projects. Now, if the administrative burden is removed from you, you don't even have to manage your diary, and then you can spend more time with these people and help them develop. And then they can come and take some of the load off you. And then you can think, my projects now, I can give a good shot.
So I think there's even something in it for managers who are probably thinking, does it mean that algorithm is gonna take away all the things I do? No, it is gonna give you the chance to get to know your people, to show what you're there to do, which is just as you say, get the best out of people.
angela_r_howard (15:17.891)
Yeah, and the other question that comes to mind is what does that mean for leadership? You know, we're kind of raising the bar almost. And so for people who have kind of skirted by and maybe have been an elevated individual contributor, not sure if that's going to work in the future.
perry_timms (15:28.662)
Yeah. Yeah.
No. What a great phrase, elevated individual contributor, because that's what a lot of people have managed to do to get themselves into a higher ranking position, right, with more power and perhaps clout. When actually, I think what we're seeing now, and it came through the pandemic, didn't it? Those leaders who showed up as real humans, sensitive, emotive, wanting to know about what they could do as leaders because they didn't have a playbook, are the ones that people are like, wow, I'm really glad I saw that side of my leader because I.
angela_r_howard (15:42.358)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (15:56.914)
Hmm.
perry_timms (16:01.09)
had respect for them as a super technician or strategist, but now I see them as compassionate and kind and considerate, but also commercially savvy and responsible and committed. And I think several leaders are starting to sort of really show up in areas like social problems, climate change, inclusion issues, and people are kind of going, that's the kind of leader I want, a leader who's kind of in tune with what I'm worried about in the world.
angela_r_howard (16:03.823)
Mm.
angela_r_howard (16:09.97)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (16:18.844)
Mm-hmm.
perry_timms (16:29.018)
and can also help me in the workplace. So, yeah, I think there's a more sophisticated and humanist version of leadership that's starting to come through. In your part of the world, one of the people I look to the most in this area is Bob Chapman from Barry Weymiller, who is just the epitome of a leader who goes, I can do the deals, I can do the high kind of strategic vision stuff, but I can also do the human to human.
angela_r_howard (16:29.084)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (16:43.95)
Hmm.
perry_timms (16:57.09)
get to know you, understand what is important to you in life. So I think Bob's the kind of flag waver, if you want, for what I think is the next generation of leaders. They're good technicians and they are high individual achievers, but they're also compassionate, caring, and responsible individuals.
angela_r_howard (17:15.13)
Yes, yes, I think all of that is important to, you know, and this is where my brain goes, right? It goes into this different kinds of topics and concepts that all connect back, I think, to your point around, you know, how do we create organizational systems that are kind of sustainable, creating this idea of flourishing and thriving for people? And I think leaders are kind of at the helm of that. They're at the front, the front line of that.
perry_timms (17:37.486)
for sure.
They are. They are. I mean, so I do get to kind of pick up some of the commentary I suppose you'd say from the research. So PWC did a big piece on CEOs. The kind of things that keep them awake are things like the, I guess the kind of sustainability of the organization in two ways. One in its footprint and environment and everything, which is great, but also the sustainability of it as an enterprise.
angela_r_howard (17:49.354)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (18:01.571)
Hmm.
perry_timms (18:07.174)
how it looks after its people, how it looks after its customers, and keeps itself in a place of relevance, I suppose you'd say. And I think what they're realizing is that it is a complex equation of both spirit and business practice. It's not just being good at products and manufacturing and deals and legalities. It is now. How do you invoke an emotional reaction in people who want to buy from you, work with you, and stay with you?
angela_r_howard (18:07.695)
Mm-hmm.
perry_timms (18:34.71)
And I think that's the kind of thing where we often call it talent. We often talk about the talent in the organization. That's become so hot, what with, and although they're perhaps not real, but they're sort of phenomena like, quiet quitting, great resignation, great reshuffle, whatever you wanna call it. Because I think when I talk to recruiters now, they tell me like, hardest yards ever. Like, it's tough to both find the right skills and then when you get into the conversation with them, make an offer that's good enough for them to come to work for you.
angela_r_howard (18:48.171)
Hmm.
perry_timms (19:04.698)
is now really, really tough. And I think there are a lot of leaders going, wow, if I'm not careful, I could struggle, not because my product's not good or my capitalization isn't good, but I haven't got the right talent. And I think that's nice because it gives us a sense of, how we look after people and make ourselves a great place to be. And I think that's a positive for all of us.
angela_r_howard (19:15.734)
Yeah.
angela_r_howard (19:25.87)
What's your prediction on that? I'll just call it a shift in power because I can't think of a better term right now. I don't necessarily like that term. But I think that's how people are viewing this in the market, which I guess my perspective is that we've been seeing it wrong as this balancing act when we should be thinking about it as a partnership. But what's your hypothesis? Do you think that we'll just go back to the old days and things will be how they are?
perry_timms (19:32.013)
Mm-hmm.
perry_timms (19:35.862)
No.
There you are. Mmm.
perry_timms (19:48.498)
Yeah. Mmm. Mmm.
angela_r_howard (19:55.85)
permanent.
perry_timms (19:57.942)
I think it has shifted and I think there is an attempt to kind of, you know, rebound and kind of just go, hey, that was a blip, but come on, let's get serious now. This is what it's going to be. I'll give you a couple of illustrations of this where people are thinking differently. In the UK recently, there was a trial on a four-day working week. So companies were looking at 100% productivity, 80% at the time, 100%
angela_r_howard (20:05.471)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (20:19.55)
Thank you. Thank you.
perry_timms (20:26.082)
paying and people like that don't work, except for almost all those companies. It did. And the reason it did wasn't because the power was then reverted to the employees from the leaders. The power shifted to a central place where they met each other. And they said, what's best for me in life and for you as a business? Because if I go one way or the other, it'll either be pro you or pro me. And that might not be best for us as a sustainable business.
I love that kind of thing where we detach from who holds the power to let's put the power in the middle and work on it together, right? Literally. And I think that's also at the heart of some of the current tension in my country, particularly in the UK, with the union unrest and lots of adversarial stances taken against the government because the government has, you know, without wanting to get overly political, kind of kept things at a kind of level and people are going, well, that's not sustainable anymore. And their objection is to, you know, obviously withdraw their labor.
angela_r_howard (20:57.811)
Yes.
angela_r_howard (21:01.394)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (21:08.696)
Mm-hmm.
angela_r_howard (21:18.054)
Hmm.
perry_timms (21:24.49)
What I think is emerging in other places is people going, it's complex. Let's work on it together. Let's let's see what's a good balance for you. Great for us and actually keep this kind of rhythm between us rather than shift the power too far one way or the other, because you get wage spiral, you get indulgent sort of treatment. And of course, in the US, particularly, I guess, the tech company layoffs are really interesting because I see some who have taken the approach, which is
angela_r_howard (21:49.374)
Mm-hmm
perry_timms (21:53.738)
bad, we probably over-recruited, but yeah, we've had to let some people go. We're not happy with it. We're trying to do our dignified and then other people who only know they haven't got a job anymore when they can't log in or they can't use their card to get in the building. It's like, whoa, how undignified is that? Now that, that lives in the memories of the people who are no longer there, but also the people that are there. I was like, I thought we were better than that. Completely right. So I think we're seeing that now. Now the power is different there because it's a kind of grab.
angela_r_howard (22:05.734)
Mm.
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (22:15.374)
Hmm, yeah, survivor's guilt, yeah. Mm-hmm.
perry_timms (22:23.458)
by the manager, leader, and community to kind of go to shareholders that trust us. We can do hard things, but the hard things then are the things that people kind of do, I'm not having that. So I think there's a power struggle there. I don't think that's helpful at all. I think those companies and Bob did this at Barry Waymiller several years ago. When when people come together to solve problems, absolutely the best way to be. So I think the power is shared and I think that's absolutely how we'll see success in the future. That's my hypothesis.
angela_r_howard (22:28.972)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (22:33.971)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (22:38.113)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (22:45.571)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (22:52.83)
Yeah, well, you heard it here, everyone. We're going to come back in like a year and see how things shake up. But I tend to agree with you. And one of the things that, and this will kind of be kind of our closing, I think because there's a lot of needles that we've, or thread that we've threaded through this conversation. And the term that you just use, dignity, I think, is something that spans the individual leadership,
perry_timms (23:11.158)
Yeah. Mmm. Mmm.
perry_timms (23:20.394)
Yeah, completely.
angela_r_howard (23:23.05)
and the organization and that perspective of how we create dignity and respect. And that's a tough value to operationalize.
perry_timms (23:24.686)
completely.
Yeah, that.
perry_timms (23:32.87)
Yeah, it is. Yeah. And as is like virtue, you know, that kind of thing. So so I do tend to use words like that deliberately devotion, dignity, virtue, valor, because they are more noble. They are a detachment from commercialized strategic words. Even empowerment is a bit like, well, I'm gifting you the power. It's like? Oh, OK, should I be grateful? But I think a dignified way to deal with it is.
angela_r_howard (23:36.891)
Hmm.
angela_r_howard (23:56.35)
Wait, wait. Wait.
perry_timms (23:59.722)
How do you want to be with us and help us? And how do we need to be to enable you to do that? I think it's just kind of adulting. I think it's a much more mature and sophisticated kind of conversation for people to step in. And that's not just a white-collar thing. That's everybody in an organization. When you see people who are capable of more and you give them the chance, you will thank yourself as an organization and leadership team by going, wow, I'm really glad I didn't miss out on it.
angela_r_howard (24:16.634)
Hmm.
perry_timms (24:27.886)
because there's so much more we've got to give. So I think you're right. I think the dignity thing comes in very strongly, if we can work with dignity together, we will find out things about each other that we like more and we can leverage and utilize them. And that's not manipulative and that's not imbalanced. I think that's a really strong word to kind of keep.
angela_r_howard (24:39.292)
Hmm.
perry_timms (24:48.754)
in mind, but you're right, about operationalizing it. It's like, so are we having a dignity day? It's like, what? No, we're not having a dignity day. What we're doing is we're defining dignity and we're standing by it and we're holding each other to account. And I think again, it's not a power shift. This is about how we all coalesce around that word we symbolize it and we show it where it's not there. We point it out firmly, but with kindness and we kind of go, there was a dignity thing that kind of slipped a bit there. Oh yeah.
angela_r_howard (24:53.79)
Yeah, freaks.
angela_r_howard (25:14.734)
Mm-hmm.
perry_timms (25:18.366)
Right. What do I do to put it right? I think there's something where unless you're a real narcissist or a complete psychopath or pathologically inclined, you want to do right by the people who are with you. And let's see more of that come through. That's the most dignified thing, I think.
angela_r_howard (25:38.37)
Well, Perry, I loved this conversation. Thank you for sharing your brilliance and your insight with us. Where can people find you if they want to work with you or partner up?
perry_timms (25:41.291)
Me too.
perry_timms (25:44.718)
Appreciate it.
Mmm. So I'm on LinkedIn. There's only one of me, so that's good. And the website is pthr.com. That's papatangohotoromeo.co.uk. YouTube clips. I'm on Twitter. Yeah, if you Google search me, I come up. I'm all right to find you.
angela_r_howard (25:51.491)
Thank you.
angela_r_howard (26:05.93)
And we'll make sure to include those links in our show notes. People can reach out if they're interested and just thank you, grateful for you, and thankful for having you today.
perry_timms (26:08.75)
Thank you.
perry_timms (26:16.287)
And thank you and I'm glad there are people like you that are wanting to give airtime to the right kind of thing. So thank you, Angela.
angela_r_howard (26:22.192)
Hmm.
